I have had enough of my fence-sitting, moody, irritable, WS. If you have been following my thread, then you know the sitch. The A appears to be over by all accounts. NC since 9/05. No MC since October by my WS's choice. He seems to prefer to play the martyr rather than actually work on the Marriage. I love him, still. I definately feel that my LB has taken some huge withdrawals and I rarely experience any kind of deposit. I have plan A'd my butt off and have made immense changes in how I approach the relationship with my H.

Now is the time for the rubber to hit the road and start on a plan for recovery. I refuse to settle for the empty, loveless farce that my H is proposing. The question is how to bring this to my H without it looking like an ultimatum.

This is what I have considered...
Ask him if he could give me 10 minutes.
If (big if) he says "yes", then ask him to write down a list of ways to improve our relationship, taking about 5 minutes.
Then, read over eachother's lists and decide on several that we can agree on. (E.G. weekly dates, marriage counseling, HN/HN.)

What do you think? I am nearing the end of my patience.
Loni

I think he won't cooperate with any plan. Maybe you can ask him to go somewhere, and gradually start the 15 hours a week together.

Loni,

Here's something that my W and I do. When I get home from work we both retire to our bedroom for 15 - 20 min. I change from my "work" clothes to my WORK clothes. During that time it is just for "small talk" between us. Talking about how our day went, any family news, etc... It is just a few mins to reconnect for us.

We also set aside an hour each evening (usually after we've put our kids to bed) to be together. This time is very free form, we may wash dishes, pack lunches, work on a project, talk, or just watch TV. But we make sure to do it together.

The "15 Hour" rule is a good rule but I'm afraid your FWH may balk @ 15 hours a week. It will probably sound like a lot of time to him and he may get stuck on the figure.

Any amount of time that you can get your H to commit to is good. It will build gradually as you reconnect.

BTW I like what you are considering if he's up doing it.

Has the break from Volleyball season helped? I know there's probably a break of about a month before softball season starts.

I wondering if he doesn't get to see OW "from afar" if he mignt not start actually going into withdrawl from her. I firmly believe that his seeing her "from afar" is just dragging out / stalling the ability for your M to really start recovery.

I want to let you know that I believe epiphany's happen. One happened to me. That is one of the reasons I am on the boards. It happened after a particularaly nasty arguement between my W & I <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> (I'll spare you the details). As is my want, I went out of the house and "walked the fields". Only this time, instead of focusing on how angry I was with my W, I started to think about why / how the arguement started. I then started to think back about other arguements we'd had over the years. In those few hours that I was "walking" I started to see patterns in MY behavior that shocked me. I realized that if I kept up these patterns I could really endanger my marriage. By the end of this "walk" I vowed that I would NOT repeat these patterns and I would make changes for the better. I WOULD become a better husband to my wife.

That was a few years ago. IMHO our marrige has never been better than it is now.

That is my "ephipany" story. I truly hope something similiar will happen with your FWH.

Keep you eyes on the prize, Loni! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Stay Strong!

Thanks Believer and WTF. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I finally had to give my husband the choice of working on the marriage or leaving. I really meant it when I said it and I think he realized that I was very serious. This is what caused the "showdown".

My husband had been talking about closing out our joint checking and opening a new one at another bank. I had asked him a few times about it being a Joint account or an account for just him. He never would give me a straight answer and that really upset me. I felt that he was just setting stuff up to make the transition of seperating easier when he decided to leave. He didn't respond well when I asked him about that and our DD15 even asked him if he was planning on leaving again. He told her that he didn't have any plans. Not exactly the response that made me feel any easier.

Then, last night, he told me that he had opened an account at his sister's bank a month ago. A MONTH AGO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> He then said that he did it to protect himself from me financially. I just confronted the behavior of doing things behind my back and doing things with an ulterior motive. He told me that I had went to a lawyer behind his back and that I bought my car behind his back and that he found my little camera in my car. Fine, the camera I had bought after I found out from my son that he was talking to the OW back in September. He didn't tell me and wouldn't have if our son hadn't seen him and told me. I bought the spy camera in September and kept it as a just in case measure. I never installed it and I never even tried it out to see how it worked. He tried to say that I never installed it because he keeps his truck locked and hides the keys from me. I told him that I have had more than enough access to the keys over the last 5 months and I had chosen to not use the camera.

Then he proceeded to tell me that he can't live like this. He can't live with me not trusting him and that he doesn't trust me. I just said, "of course I don't trust you. You continue to do things behind my back and you continue to not tell me the truth about things that are important to our relationship." He told me that I bought the car without discussing it with him. Wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> We did discuss it but he chooses to not remember what was said.

I came up to him after taking some time to cool down and after talking with my dad. My H didn't like that I talked to my dad about what he was doing. Right now, I don't care if he likes it or not. My opinion is that if he doesn't like people to know what he is doing, then maybe he shouldn't be doing it. It's hard to play like you are the "nice guy" when you are doing unnice things. My dad, by the way, told me to call the lawyer and kick my H out. He says that my H hasn't given me any other options other than to play hardball. Back to the subject... I came up to my H and calmly told him that the choice is his. He can choose a MC, choose a plan for marital recovery from all of the material he have in our home, or leave. He asked me, "why now?" I told him that not doing anything is not only not helping, but things are worse between us. He agreed that things are worse. He said, "It's kind of hard to find a MC on the weekend." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I replied that I know. I told him that my preference is to do the marriage builders plan. I asked him if he would look at it. He did. He agreed that we would do the MB plan. I said that I was fine with that but we have to agree on a starting point because I feel that we are not ready to just jump into the plan. I told him that I think it would be too much for us considering the bad feelings we have for each other at this point in time. He said that he would look at it. I asked "when?". He sighed and said, "I guess now."

I explained the Rule of Protection to him. At first, he got combative and told me to protect myself. I told him that is not what the rule is about. After going over it, we agreed to follow the rule of protection. The second point we agreed on was the POJA. I explained how it would keep us from doing things that hurt the relationship and only promoted ourselves. I explained that if we had followed the POJA, that I wouldn't have bought the car because I didn't have his "enthusiastic" agreement, and that he wouldn't have opened the new account because it didn't have my agreement.

I asked him how he felt about the Rule of Honesty. He said that we can wait a little on that but he is being honest with me so there shouldn't be any problem anyway. Right...
I let that one pass. I'm sure you know what I was thinking.

There is one major sticking point that we are going to have to address as soon as the rule of honesty is added. He says that he doesn't want to have to tell me every time that he runs into "somebody". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I said that I don't care about hearing of everyone he runs into but I want to know if he talks to the OW. He keeps referring to her as "somebody" and I kept saying "her". Then he likes to say that I don't love him and I am just trying to control him. I just told him that he can't see into my heart so he can't tell me what I feel. Then I just asked him to clarify how I am controlling him. Funny how quiet he gets when I do that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We added one more daily activity to our plan. Every night, before we fall asleep, we pray together. At first, he didn't want to because he said I would use it against him. I reassured him that I just wanted us to pray at the same time, silently, for the health of our marriage. I really believe in prayer and I hope that this daily activity will not only open God' ear to us, but also open my H back up to his relationship with God. In any case, it never hurts to bring our problem to our Maker. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

One last little addendum, my Cockatoo bit me in the face last night. My H had just left to go to my Dad's and I ran to my unit (I am an OB nurse) so someone could check it out for stitches or steri strips. Anyway, my H was appropriately sympathetic. My face is swollen and I didn't need any stitches but I will have a nice little scar. The bird is in his cage and I don't think he is coming out for the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Bye for now,
Loni

Loni,

This is the exact same conversation I just had with my WW. She continually goes back to the fact that she cannot live the rest of her life having to "report" her every move to me. She also brings up all of the snooping I have done to discover her A although I have a continous urge to keep the snooping going even though I know the A is still there. I explained that it's a shame that we cannot trust one another but trust must be rebuilt and I told her I would do my part as long as it takes. I am NOT giving up on our M.

I am about halfway through SAA and so far is spot on. I am positive that this A will die a natural death albeit over a long period of time, D-Day was almost 6 months ago and A started the beginning of June 05.

In SAA Dr. Harley basically makes it clear to NEVER expect an apology or acknowledgement of the pain the WS has made the BS endure. Just forget the past and look to the future otherwise you will never move forward. Tough stuff indeed. Hang in there.....

Loni,

Just checking in with you. How are things going this week?

Stay Strong!

Hi y'all,

I'm hanging in there still. H and I have been working on following the rule of protection and the poja. He has told me that he will be giving me a key to his truck and we still need to talk about the checking account. Last night I brought up the option of getting cell phones again. My dad is really wanting me to get one so he can contact me at all hours of the day. H says he doesn't want to get them right now. POJA is in effect, so cell phones are not going to happen now. Dad will just have to deal.

This Friday, it will be one week since implementing the MB plan. I am going to discuss with my H adding another componant of the plan. I want to start implementing the Rule of Time. How many hours a week seems like a good start? I was thinking 5.

Anyway, other than being stressed out at work, with my dad, and raising 3 teens and dealing with a difficult FWS, life is good. God loves me and has my back so I will be OK.

Loni

Loni,

Just checking in to see how you're doing?

How's the one week anniversery of implementing the MB plan? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think that 5 hours should be easy for him to accept <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. You can ratchet it up from there. My W and I have 7 hours set asside during the weekdays. 20 mins when I get home from work and 9:00 - 10:00 weeknights (my DD13 is NOT amused by being sent to her bedroom @ 9:00, She has informed me that "every other kid in my school gets to stay up past 10:00" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

I think that POJA is a great rule <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . It has prevented small disagreements from growing larger and generating LB's.

The checking account things needs to be resolved <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. He needs to be reattaching / reconneting himself to YOU. NOT setting up seperate accounts to make things easier for him to leave (you can tell him I said that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

My W is recovering well from her surgury <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. She's now been "cleared" by the Dr. to be able to go back to work and pick up our youngest (Drainge tubes and stitches in her abdomin made picking up DD1 an unwise choice).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My DD1 had her first birthday last Sunday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We celebrated by staying home safe and sound (We got 7" of snow that day).

Stay Strong!

HI WTF,

It's always a pleasure to hear from you. It will be two weeks tomorrow since establishing a plan. My H is still mostly foggy with patches of lucidity. He has told me that he will put my name on the checking account. He hasn't said when, however. This came about last weekend when he gave me money for the groceries. I put the money down and told him that I don't want cash for groceries and that if he is going to continue to buy groceries than he should go down and get them himself. I told him that the whole idea of the checking account upset me greatly and that we need to work it out. I also told him that if I wanted to go and get groceries or get the kids hair cut etc... that I have to wait for him to give me the cash. I also reminded him that there are times when he would want me to go and get something and just tell me to use the joint account or the atm. He can no longer do that and that means he would have to go out and get the cash for me first. Mostly, the whole thing upsets me because of the motives behind the action. And, that he didn't discuss it with me at all, and that he kept it a secret for a month. Wow, just typing it ticks me off all over again.

We have followed the POJA pretty well. The Rule of Protection can be trickier. Esp. with a fogged out FWS. Last night, he was mad about our cockatoo shreaking and slammed my coffee mug into the dishwasher breaking the handle. I said, "what are you doing?" He told me to shut up. OK, now I'm angry. One, because he told me to shut up and ,two, because he did it around the kids. So, without raising my voice, I told him that he is the one yelling at a bird, slamming things and breaking things and now he is telling me to shut up. I told him that I won't be talked to that way and he needs to get a grip.

Probably not the best wording but I was pissed. What in the ******, gives him the cajones to tell me to shut up. I don't expect flowers and declaration of undying love from him. Heck, I barely expect him to acknowledge my presence. I deserve a lot better than that hatefulness.

Afterward, I went upstairs and was reading when he came up. He was still cranky and unremorseful from how he was acting toward me, but he apologized. I didn't really accept the apology, I acknowledged it but that is all. When we went to bed, I told him that he needs to figure out some way to deal with his moods and the bird. I told him that telling me to shut up isn't cool, esp in front of the kids. I reminded him about the Rule of Protection that we agreed to follow. He said that he knows and he was sorry for that. The next morning, he apologized with what seems like more remorse so I accepted that apology.

I want to go on a date tomorrow. My H knows but I can see him pulling out of it.

Sometimes, I wonder if my H will ever be the good husband again. My LB is running really low and he doesn't seem to be at a point where he even cares. I hope this is worth it. If he stays like this, I would be hating him at some point. I'm amazed that there is any love left.

One good thing from today, Our dd15 had a parents meeting for driving school. The OW's DD is in the same class. My H gave me the money to pay for the course and backed out of going. He knew she was going to be there and I fully expected my H to go. He pulled out on his own without any input from me. Maybe, that is a little progress.

I'm happy that Mrs Field is doing well. God bless 1yr olds, they are soooo adorable. Give them big hugs for me and tell them that someone in MI has you and your family in her prayers.

<<<<hugs>>>>
Loni

If your husband doesn't like the bird, maybe you can find a good home for it. Cockatiels can be rather noisey. I have finches, who just go beep-beep.

Loni,

Congradulations on your 2 week anniversery! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (insert thunderous applause here)

Have fun on your date tonight! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I forgot to ask how you are doing after the attack of the flesh eating bird. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have about 100 domesticated birds on my place. Some common ones from North America, Europe. Some exotics from South America & Asia. Of course all of these are various breeds of Chickens and / or Turkeys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Except for the Peacocks!

If you ever need real Green eggs talk to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> One of the breeds of chickens from South America that I raise lay real, honest to goodness, GREEN eggs.

My Farm lies not very far from the Wisconsin River. Hense we occasionally have a Rattlesnake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> problem in our little 1/3 acre vineyard. Small birds & rodents come to feast on the grapes when they're ripening and the Rattlesnakes feast on the small birds and rodents. That's where the Peacocks come in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Peacocks are prenicious snake raptors. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thats why they're so revered in India. They literally eat Cobras for breakfast! Ever since We got the Peacocks we haven't had a problem with Rattlesnakes around the farm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Of course we haven't had any snakes around the farm since weve gotten them. Mrs Field and MIL don't mind that at all. Neither care for snakes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



They are like this when when the plans are at the beginning stages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The good news that that gradually move to mostly lucide with patches of fog. Then they move on to become fully lucide! At that point you have your (new and improved!) H back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I'm glad that he said that he was going to put you on the account but I would honestly press this one home. I can't blame you for being upset over this.

You've already implemented the rule of protection haven't you? There is no way that you can feel safe with this hanging over you.

BTW: Good job "laying down the law" on him. He has to understand that the way he is controlling access to the marital funds is NOT fostering any trust and NOT helping you to feel safe.



Hmmmmm..... Lets analyze this.... He is mad at the Bird for doing what birds do, Pitches a fit and starts throwing fragile kitchen implements against other kitchen items breaking them (probably insighting the bird to squak even more). You then inquire as to what he is doing (based I assume upon the sound of breaking kitchen implements). Because he is now in CEMoOP (Childish Emotionally Method of Operation) he knows that he was a "bad" boy and seeks to deflect blame by attaching the questioner. "Shut Up" he snaps in reply to your inquiry. Sigh.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You are quite correct. He should not have said that to you in front of the kids, of course, he probably should not have pitched a fit to begin with. Good for you for telling him that you were NOT going to tollerate that type of treatment. He found a boundry and he's not getting past it. Mutual respect is very important.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's actually a good sign. He's taking ownership of his issue.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Actually, I think this is BIG progress <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, He is thinking about your feelings and trying to protect you. He knows that OW will likely be there and he knows your feelings about that. He's doing this to make YOU feel safe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Remember just a few short months ago when he wasn't going to "let you keep him from seeing his daughter play" (and get his "Fix" by seeing to OW from afar) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. He's thinking about you feelings now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. It is solidly a step in the right direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



This is a very understandable reaction. But I can assure you that if you loved him once you CAN love him again. Just as he loved / cherished you once he CAN love you again.

At one point he loved you and cherished you above ALL others. He gave HIS wedding vows to YOU, you gave YOURS to HIM. Remember how you felt that day? That memory and a few prayers will give you the strength to get throught this.

Eyes on the prize Loni.

Stay Strong!

BTW: Are you a Upper?

Sorry: I think that should by Yupper?

Hi Believer....

It's really nice to hear from you. Are you doing well? I will have to check your posts to see how you are. Take care and God Bless.

WTF....

I consider you such a blessing. Honestly, your words of encouragement are so helpful to me. Just when I feel like giving up, there you are reminding me that this is a journey with lots of hills, jagged rocks and the occasional dangerous curve. You also remind me that this journey is one worth making.

I was just sitting here crying because my H let me down, again. We didn't go out last night because he was tired. He told me that he would take me out for a late lunch today when he got home from work. Well, he just got home, grabbed some leftover pizza and went upstairs. I asked if we were still going out and he said that we weren't because of all the kids are here, including a couple of the kid's friends. I just said "ok". What could I say? I don't want to play the guilt card. I want to go out and enjoy ourselves. We can't do that if he is sulking and angry.

Life goes on.

By the way, I'm not a Yupper. I live in the SW corner of MI right north of Notre Dame. I still call California home though, because I was born and raised in LA. This city girl turned country.

The Peacock story is great. I never knew that they ate snakes. Awesome.

My eye is healing nicely from the bird bite. I don't think the scar will even be noticeable. Thank God it was me and not one of the kids or their friends.

Take care and God Bless. I gotta figure out dinner now.

One last thing... I was thinking about love. Esp. the unconditional kind. Like the love we have for our kids. I have to remember that I have chosen to love my H regardless of whether I am rewarded with his love in return. Love without strings. Not exactly something that I thought about on the wedding day but I think that is what God had in mind.

Hugs to you and yours.
Loni

he left....again. OH God!!!

Why does it still hurt so much?

Because you love him and want to heal your family.

Hang in there Loni.

Stay Strong!