Refer to last post or just read here.

Today everything hit the fan (so to speak)in my M regarding full exposure of WS's A to OWH and H superiors. WS isn't speaking to me. I know that LBing isn't best. Should I maybe stay away for while. How does one handle WS after full exposure and WS is defensive and angry.

No...quite the contrary. The only way to recovery is for WS to talk about what happened. IMHO, there is a problem if the questions go too long at one time. You can't expect the WS to sit there and be grilled for hours on end every day.



Did the each OW pull a gun and threaten to shoot him if he didn't [censored] her? Trust me...WS didn't end up in bed with either OW by accident.

You know the truth. He knows the truth. He is confusing you with a little double talk, and perhaps you prefer to be confused rather than to accept the truth.

The problem is *NOT* with you...it is with WS.

Orchid: Your personal boundaries require no explanation to the Ws. Just to tell him/her what those boundaries are. Those boundaries are set by you for you. You don't help the Ws get to any point. You want the WS gone/dead. You want your spouse back alive and ready to care for you and your family......

Don't help the WS.


Orchid: You don't become the WS' friend. You let your spouse come back and they will spill the beans on the A.


Orchid: You make them wonder.


Orchid: Yes. Hounding the Ws prevents recovery. Good plan A. Solid plan B. Secure finances, setting boundaries, knowing your options and moving forward, reverse babbling.....helps exterminate the WS from your life and bring back your real spouse. Reverse babble gives the WS back the guilt and they don't like it. But your real spouse would understand.

Stop enabling or trying to help the WS!

L.

ok, jimmy mac and orchid, I looked at your responses about asking questions of WS. It seems that asking questions that hound or that are prolonged and demaning are a no-no.
But thougthful short sessioned question are ok. I can deal with that. I mean I still have tons. Guess I'll just write them down and pace little by little.

I will keep this in mind going forward.

orchid, I don't mean to enable WS. I'm figuring that maybe he dosen't feel he can relate to me. Thus, i have to befriend him. I don't know. I'm still learning. Maybe you mean that I simply allow him to make his own decisions and face his own consequences.

Ws needs to be fully open and honest and answer any and all questions you may have honestly fully and completely. "Josephs Letter" on this site can help them understand the need to do that. They will quite naturally want to clam up and not discuss the affair, want to clam up to protect your feelings etc. That just doesn't work. Radical Honesty, one of Dr Harleys principles needs to be applied here.

I also should add here that I told my wife nothing she said could bother me. We used to have holidays with OM's family. He was my eldest son's football coach. There is a lot of interaction between our families. My wife was scared to mention his name or talk about our holidays. I told her it didn't bother me. We can talk about those times. I won't freak out. It won't upset me. He was my friend and he betrayed me too. I can mention his name and we can talk about stuff that involved our families.



Hmm. So what. Does it really matter who pursued who? He still decided to have the affair himself. No one forced him. It probably helps you to believe he was pursued particularly in the early days after d-day, but at the end of the day, what does it really matter? He cheated, with his eyes open and he has not committed to your marriage. That's what counts. And yes - he probably would have kept it going. That's the beauty of exposure. Affairs flourish in secrecy and darkness. Shine some light on them and it's over.


At some point you should stop asking questions. For a while (months) after d-day you will be asking questions - hopefully different ones. But at some point, you will be satisfied you have all questions answered to your satisfaction. To keep continuing after this point will hinder your recovery. We are now 6 months post d-day. I don't think I have asked any questions for maybe 2 months. What I do tend to do these days is not ask questions as soon as they come into my head. I let them sit for a few days. If they still bother me I ask them. In the older days, I would save questions up for a few days too - so I could ask a few at the one time rather than constantly quizzing about the affair.

That approach seemed to work for us.

I have a wife who loves me and I love her. We are over the worst of it all I hope.

bump

reallyconcerned,

Questions-- what worked best for us was designating a TIME for our "affair" talks. In the beginning, since I was thinking about the affair 24/7, I had new questions every 5 minutes. I was constantly badgering him and he was hesitant to come anywhere around me. We set aside a DAY and a time with a beginning and END, uninterrupted, to discuss any questions I had.

Prior to the discussion I made up a list of my questions. Each time I thought of a new one, I'd write it down. Having to wait before discussing them gave me the opportunity to review the list, decide if I REALLY needed to know this and why. As an incentive to answer, I promised once I had an answer, I'd never ask that question again.

Nerlycrzy, I was thinking also that I should write questions down. SO you confirm my thoughts about this.

Another question that has come to mind, does working in transparency become something that WS does little by little or should you expect them to adhere to it totally immediately. For me, I'm noticing my WS may not expect that I will want him to allow me in some areas where he doesn't see a need for it.

Seems this is something that probably evolves.

reallyconcerned,

Writing the questions down sure helped me. Helped me to realize what I REALLY wanted to know, repeating the same ones over and over, and reduced the potential LB's. Also gave him a audible sigh of relief as the list dwindled. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Transparency? Well, he should know what you need to feel safe. Here is a list of a Guide to Recovery acquired through many old posts.
----------

Answer every question your spouse asks, with patience and love - even if he/she asks it over and over and over again (and that WILL happen).
Never be defensive in your answers.
Truth - always.
Don't ever try to protect yourself from your spouse's rage (as long as it's not physical or abusive).
Accept the anger as evidence of the depth of the hurt.
Your spouse needs to know that you hear their pain - let your spouse see that you hear it.
Don't expect your spouse to heal on YOUR timetable -respect that he/she has to do it on their own - and this may take a very long time, and sometimes it might even feel like it's going backwards (it'll turn around again eventually).
Reassure him/her of your love - repeatedly.
Give up all your privacy to your H/W as long as it take to re-establish trust (including all passwords, computer logs, cell phone info etc.).
If any part of your affair occurred at your house, offer to sell it and move.
If any part of your affair occurred with a co-worker, quit your job and find a new one.
If you have ANY contact whatsoever with the Other Person, end it now, completely and irrevocably.
Write a NC letter.
Offer to set up counseling for the two of you and for yourself, individually ( and follow through with it!).
Don't ever blame your spouse for the choice YOU made, even if you feel he/she contributed to problems in your marriage - you chose to have the affair; you could have chosen a different, constructive way to deal with any
difficulties in the marriage, without betrayal.
Check in with your spouse often, so that he/she never wonders where you are or when you will be coming home.
Give your H/W every reason to trust you and no reason to think they can't.
Just because your spouse might not talk about it, doesn't mean he/she isn't thinking about it - don't make the mistake of thinking that your H/W has put it behind him/her
until you are told that it has been (and they may have to try to put it behind them
more than once).
Don't try to sweep it under the rug.
Show that you will wait patiently to be forgiven as long as it takes to do it.
Understand that while he/she might forgive you, your spouse will never, ever completely forget what happened and that a part of him/her being has been irrevocably changed.
Your spouse will experience triggers that will take him/her back to the initial despair - please be patient and understanding while they works through these - the
triggers will lessen over time, although they may never disappear entirely.
Your spouse needs to know that you deeply and truly regret your actions - not just because they were wrong (by betraying your marriage vows), but because you realize how selfish you were in choosing a course of action with no
consideration for how deeply he/she would be hurt.
Finally, you need to show that - no matter what - you will never, ever do it again - that your H/W is now safe in your love.
-----------

reallyconcerned, your spouse should know what you want, what you need and what will make you feel safe again. Being unable to read yur mind or actually put themselves in your shoes, they need to KNOW you WANT to recover, you WANT to rebuild and the steps that will make it easier for both of you.

Here's rule of thumb that I use:

Know the WS will use everything and anyone as a shield to protect their WS mentality and lifestyle. They will even put your H and his status as a parent along with your own chldren to protect the WS creature.

Realize this and when he moves that way...... expose. Exposure methods could include reverse babble.

When mine tried to do this, I would look at him and tell him he is babbling. That the convo will end until he can speak in a sensible manner.

You have to acknowledge the creature within and NOT try to pretend he is your H.

L.

ORchid,
I don't understand what you mean here:

Orchid said: They will even put your H and his status as a parent along with your own chldren to protect the WS creature.

I think WS is trying. Sometimes I feel however that I am fussy. It seems that I'm in need of realigning my responsibility. I think I'm trying to make him do stuff rather than trying to focus on my responsibility.

I think I'm trying to be superwoman. It is like I want to come through and change him and me and everything. Of course this isn't working. It seems I do need to understand the importance of him making his own choices and the consequences that follow and myself doing the same.

Things seem to be falling apart right now. I am becoming increasingly angry with WS and so is he with me. I am concerned if things keep going this way we will end up in dv court.

Our problems are stemming from boundary problems between the both of us. I have been LB about the A. I admit it, but I have because he is crossing my boundaries by doing things that cause me to doubt him. And he isn't even trying to find out what my boundaries are. Then I obviously have crossed a boundary of his that pertains to our finances also.

We can't even get past these things to talk about the Policy of Joint Agreement and Negotiating in M. So, I refuse to get into anything intimate with him again until there is an understanding between us both about what is going on with us.

We are at an impasse and I do not know how to get past it.

What does one do when you are at an impasse?

I've got so many problems in my recovery, I see something in every thread that I can learn.

Here's my problem. The other night, I told my WW about plans for counseling when she gets back from her business trip (that the OM will NOT be on). I was genuinely excited that we were going to do this and get some help. She was sullen, moody and even mad that I brought it up. She does not see what "dredging it all back up" will do for us.

I told her that I have questions that she needs to answer or at least demonstrate a willingness to answer. I've taken the advice here and have written them down -- I've narrowed it down to 20 or so that I think are reasonable and not all have to do with "How many times did you have sex?" (but that one is in there).

When I told her I need questions answered, she said I might as well file for divorce because she was not going to go through it all over again! She told me she hated me and was ready to leave.

Everytime she threatens this, I tell her I still love her and want to save the marriage, but if she wants out, she can file the paperwork at any time. Somehow, she never does. This time, she came to bed later and apologized for saying mean things to me and said she'd give MC a try.

So, my question is: How do I respond to her if she is not willing to answer my questions? I don't think they're unreasonable and certainly can be answered in an hour or so of conversations.

I'm trying to get her to see that I need to see her willingness to be honest and open about the affair. The questions aren't as important as her willingness to be honest about it.

Do I immediately move to Plan B if she refuses to answer? Do I leave the list with her and give her some space (not Plan B) to think?

I'm really scared when she sees the delicate nature of some of the questions, she'll freak and bolt. Should I let this happen?

Your input is greatly appreciated.

SPidey I wish I could help you. i'm learning myself. I would say it might not be so good to Plan B because WS is refusing to talk to you about the A. You may have to take another route to get her to open up.

Upon further contemplation (been doing a lot of that lately), I agree with you reallyconcerned.

Plan B should be reserved for continued contact with OM and not as a manipulative tool to move recovery along at my desired speed.

I'm still at a loss for how to respond to her if she refuses to answer some basic questions about the A. It's not that I will die if I don't have the answers, but I know from her first A that little things come out over time and they serve as triggers to remind me of the pain.

About three months after the final No Contact on the previous A (I met with OM and laid it out before him), my wife and daughters and I were in a restaurant. My youngest daughter said, innocently, "The last time we were here was with Mr. xxxxx." Learning that she had taken my daughters to lunch with him and not told me sent me into a several day tailspin. I will never go back to that restaurant.

She doesn't see the importance of demonstrating a willingness to discuss the A openly.

I'm tempted to email the list to her, but then I'm afraid she'll type up short answers and send it back and there won't be "discussion" or interaction between us. I think this is important.

Suggestions on what to say, how to respond?

Spidey, so this is your WS's second time in I. If so, it is also my WS's second time. I've felt like super helpless about my situation. I've felt the need to make sure that he understands me this go around and it has resulted in my LBing.

Lately, he seems a little less willing to talk things out w/ me. It may be because I've been LBing. However I feel he has an obligation to work with me. I hate feeling like I have to save the M alone and nothing is required of him.

I have had times much like you where certain things have sent me into an uproar. Such as the fact, that WS not only committed I but tried to conjure up feelings with ex-girlfriend and sent her pics of our kids. That was a HUGE no-no. THen he tried to lie to me and tell me there was nothing to it though his email to her said something quite different.

Anyway it seems the only thing he has on his mind is wanting to get busy of late. And this is the last thing I have on my mind. I'm wanting some reassurance that he understands what I expect. Needless to say I'm not getting any. Seems that things are getting tense between us and we have few things that we agree on. Anyway I'm still trying.
I wish I could help you more but I'm sooooo not helpful to anyone including myself these days. I've been posting to a fellow poster that has helped me a lot. Her nic is lovinganyways. I will ask her to look in your your post. Many blessings and encouragement to you.

Look folks, I will tell you that the real work is in recovery process and what you're dealing with is normal. In my case I went through Divorce not knowing of W's PA years before. I found out after and all the MB theories were followed by me during reconciliation...

So...slow down...establish your boundaries and STICK to them. Even if it means ending your M. You're dealing with border line serial cheaters....

Send me on my way, thanks for your reply. It helps. the difficulty is understanding my boundaries and trying to enforce them without LBing WS. it is all so confusing. Yet, I continue to work through it.

What does it mean to establish your boundaries in recovery? Are you to sahre these with WS? Is WS to agree to adhere to them? WHat if WS is reluctant/resistant?

I'm mkaing some interesting discoveries here. I have been preoccupied with WS not adhering to my boundaries or actually the lack of my establishing them with him. As a result I was becoming angry and fed up with my M.

I took a look at the POlicy of Joint Agreement. Gosh i realize that maybe I'm missing the boat. I do want my WS to uinderstand that I do have boundaries. However as I look over this I realize that I have to do a better job of establishing them and I have to establish them with WS in a way that isn't demanding or abusive. Looks like I need to restructure my game plan. More work, More work.