My WW and I are going through a very rough recovery. She is on and off again about counseling. Several business trips of hers (which I've been able to confirm the OM is not attending) have pushed our schedule back.

I found out (by a means I can't divulge) that she had a special email account that she "neglected" to tell me about that she and OM used to communicate. I also have the password.

If I confront her directly and tell her I have the password, then I lose a valuable source to verify her fidelity in the future. I have some plausible deniability for knowing the email address, but none for knowing the password.

The nut is that she still checks this account on a daily basis to see if he sent her anything. Again, telling her I know she checks the account will reveal too much of my monitoring. There has been no contact with the OM -- I've seen no new email from him in the past couple of weeks. I'm mixed about my feelings at her probable disappointment that he so easily dismissed her from his life.

SO---Your opinions please. Shoud I:

1. Send an email to the account from me stating that "I don't know if you'll read this email, but if you do it means you are still holding something for the OM. I love you and need you to close this account...." Or something like that. If she admits to the account, then that's positive. If she responds in anger (which I think she'll do) or refuse to acknowledge that I sent the email, then I'm not sure what that will mean.

Or:

2. Subscribe that account to every SPAM source I know and flood it with so many messages that it becomes totally useless for any communication purpose. This would somewhat neutralize the threat and allow us to focus on recovery without creating an avenue for additional resentment to build.

Thoughts?

Neither!

Just keep monitoring! Hopefully there will not ever be a messsage from OM and she will just stop checking.

Or you will know is WW is trying to reestablish contact via email.

Either way, watch, don't act out.

Stay Strong!

Hi, Spidey,

reallyconcerned gave me a heads up and I found your thread here. I thought it was better to stick to your thread. Just my opinion.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

From your posts, I get the idea that you are not sure what is manipulative and what is acting from your truth. I hope that doesn't come across as a disrespectful judgment...I noticed it largely in three of your posts.

I believe being betrayed mixes us up down to our molecules. Transmutates what we knew into what we thought we knew, shakes up our internal rules for operation and gives us, among so many others, a feeling of being blank and not operating from the old rules because they were decimeated.

Wholly reasonable, but absolutely awful.

I say all this, which you already know from being a BS, to let you know why I want to give you some new rules to live through this with...and maybe, end up liking them enough to thrive in your marriage after recovery.

You've read how to recover, what the BS needs, what the WS needs to do, and steps toward that goal. I'm sorry to have to say this, but I don't believe you're in recovery. Part of no contact is being transparent. As long as your wife does not give you access, passwords, acknowledgement about every mode of contact she has with others, I would call that no contact limbo. Not a bad place..compared to those who would drool to be in your no contact shoes.

Now, she's agreed to MC...so please put yourself in the frame of mind that transparency isn't now, but might begin tomorrow...or the next day. You are to focus on now only...so know where you are and accept, hey, that's where you are...right now. With every thought you have..."I feel" add those crucial two words "...right now." This orients your mind off your past and future and acknowledges that you are feeling scared, vulnerable, betrayed, shaken, lost, and hopeful right now.

This will also ease your desperate and understandable desire for your FWS to help you heal. Why? Because you are feeling what you're feeling right now and it can change. If you say what you're feeling will never change unless...and make those feelings dependent on the actions of your wife...then who are you hurting? Yourself and your wife, right?

I don't want you to hurt yourself at all. Healing is two parts...one part FWS, one part FBS. You're here, so I guess that makes your part bigger to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Manipulation...when you make your feelings and thoughts the responsibility of others. Very vulnerable, unsafe and yucky way to live, IMO. Living from your code, with standards and boundaries, however, is a most excellent way to live in my new experience. Full of freedom, relief, respect and is the groundwork for a thriving marriage.

Oh, heck, Spidey...it is all groundwork. LOL.

So, no, going to Plan B is a nonsequitor. Plan B is if your wife continues contact. You are monitoring. Was there a no contact letter? Has she agreed to work on the marriage? She sounds angry and remorseful, aware and unwilling, and willing and unaware. Being a FWS isn't pie. Seems like it from the outside in, though. Don't DJ her...she apologized for her retort. She hasn't learned you're safe enough to really say what she feels, "I feel scared facing an MC; I can't stand my actions, my thoughts and this unrelenting guilt and shame. I trust you're right, not only can we make it but that we can thrive. I just don't trust myself right now."

Right now.

Examine your pre-A marriage for signs of manipulation. Examine yourself as to whether you reacted to your spouse or choose your actions from your code. Was it more like tit for tat, making fairness and giving yourself permission to lovebust now and again? You wouldn't be alone in that...I think disrespect (which is what is at the bottom of tit for tat marital dance) is probably in 50% of marriages...and the biggest cause for divorce, IMO.

Consider how you want to live and let me know if some rules would help.

They would be like these...

Breathe. Deep breaths and focusing on your air and yourself.

The "right now" rule.

Breaking enmeshment and tit for tat.

Developing your own standards (what you do not allow yourself to do to others or to yourself) and boundaries (what you do not allow others to do to you)...all without manipulation or tit for tat.

More stuff...


So, let's start with those questions and when I get home, I'll give you my answers to some of yours...

Hang in, on and know you're not alone.

LA

Spidey, LA advice was awesome! read it, 10 x! there is not a thing in that post I could put any better.

Loving anyway, I don't want to interrupt here but have a question for you that I would like to get your response to. i post on "hurting" so will ask the question and hope you have time to respond.

I'm home...chose to first finish a writing assignment (whew!) and talk to hubby who is stuck in traffic. I know you don't need to know all that...lol. Sharing is a wonderful thang. (That's my accent when I'm tired. Just sharing.)

Thank you, SMOMW, for what I took in a complimentary fashion...I've seen how helpful you are on so many threads over the last couple of years.

Answers to questions...

How do I respond to her if she is not willing to answer my questions?

Two things...this question was off the boundaries thread. The answer is the infuriating reiteration of "Well, what are your boundaries?" Gotta define those before you choose how you enforce them (I see it as a progressive process).

I believe in establishing the whys within you first. Why do you want all those questions answered? Where's the payoff for you? Next, knowing the whys and the payoff, you develop the boundaries accordingly. Get it set in your mind though...a boundary does not make another person give you what you need...it is what another person is not allowed to do to you. Has to match your standards, and what you not willing to do to yourself, either.

Keep the balance.

I believed that Openness and Honesty was my basic, primal even, EN. Guess what? I was out of balance...I wasn't O&H first, holding to my code. Gosh, I wasn't even O&H to myself. That made my craving for it huge and unfillable, and I only focused on my spouse NOT giving it me. Getting in balance in yourself is within your control and essential.

I know this approach is greatly stressing for you and for RC, because it isn't action.

I wanted action when I came on this board, too. Don't tell me about fixing myself...fix my situation, stop my immediate pain and then I'll work on myself.

Yeah...like that could happen. You see the flaw, right?

Anyway, you're not alone. No one is--getting past the first sting of the "what's your part?" you really grow and get the answers for yourself. Awesome.

Here sounds like a little of the whys and payoff:

I'm trying to get her to see that I need to see her willingness to be honest and open about the affair. The questions aren't as important as her willingness to be honest about it.

Now, about trying to get her to see...may I introduce a new concept for ya? She sees. She knows. Respect that she has had opportunity to hear you and knows. Sounds like you won't believe she sees unless she acts in accordance with what you requested (more than once, I believe). That would go to your belief (if only they understood, they would comply). Examine that. It is an old belief you've had since being a kid.

I cop to having had this belief, also. You're not alone. If only he/she could see it through my eyes (translate to 'believe as I believe'), then they would easily give me what I need. Had it to the bone. Let everyone off the hook but me, didn't it? No respect. I thought I was a very respectful (courteous) person. Heck no!

It is a subtly destructive one...basis of a disrespectful judgment (DJ). You choose to request what you want. She chooses to act on the request or not. Willingness is deceptive DJ. We can only control ourselves...God didn't set the system up any other way. Our influence is limited.

She has a belief that "dredging it all up" again won't be of aid. That is what she believes right now. Don't DJ that. Accept that is her truth. Goes to acting from your standard of honesty. Honesty cannot include manipulation, which would be dishonest and closed.

Sound like I'm hanging you out to dry?

Refer to above rule "right now." See, not "How can I get her to answer my questions" but when. Your boundary here seems to be about time. You may feel she crossed it because she wasn't already forthcoming and cooperative immediately. You may be having a lot of time triggers inside yourself because of this second go round. You didn't have marriage builders on your side back then, though, did you?

So ask yourself, how long is reasonable to wait, develop my code, examine my beliefs...oh, and two more rules to great living:

• Make "I feel" and "I believe" statements often, signifying your commitment to openness and honesty. You say what she believes...you must equally share, respectfully, your own. By virtue of having them, you need to share them. Simple, direct. Not as a consequence, retaliation, manipulation or reaction. Chosen sharing.

and

• Listen and repeat.

You seem to me to have a lot of self-control. You recognize your impulses and don't give into them. You're introspective and contemplate more than your own needs when you choose your actions. You seem like a natural Plan A'er to me.

I hadn't read your second post on that thread...you already saw the manipulation vs. acting from your code. Fast learner.

How do you like the rules so far?

Oh, wait...another one coming on to add...

• Expectations are not boundaries.

Ahh..now to this post on this thread...are you acting openly and honestly? No, you are concealing knowledge for your own safety and security. Hey, I'm all about snooping out an A...and hating the after NC there being contact in my experience. I am not presuming you're immune to that kind of devastating pain and anguish, either. Hurts like crazy.

It passes.

Recovery is working through pain and not covering it up. Rule of Protection comes into play because you protect your spouse from pain YOU cause, not others.

Have to have those standards and codes aligned, Spidey.

Otherwise...chaos in mind, body, spirit and emotions.

Been there...go there sometimes even now, but momentarily.

You want her O&H because she wasn't when you were, but you're not now, but she owes you and how will you feel safe thoughts (pretend I hyphenated all those words, please?)...

You're not safe from harm or injury. You can and will experience pain no matter how many precautions you attempt to take...your marriage has proved this an accurate belief. Not accepting it won't change the accuracy. Your life previously to marriage proved the same belief. Allow yourself to believe it--your emotions will hand you fear, a feeling of falling away, give you that fight or flight or FIX IT response, and you may experience anger and shame.

Experience them. Living to your code, over time, corrects the misinformation you get in the form of emotions...because you change your beliefs and demonstrate them to yourself, then you will stopped being handed old, outdated emotions. New ones roll in. Sometimes great ones.

But you will stay in pain that you are causing yourself by crossing your own wires...align standards and boundaries.

You are already making inroads into respect and not choosing to act manipulatively to get your needs met. And you are meeting some of your own, even, by being here, seeking wisdom, clarity and answers. Way to go, Spidey.

Look forward to your response very much. Your presence matters.

LA

P.S. Caveat...the foregoing is for Recovery, which is no contact and after recommitment to marriage. Do not ingest. Keep away from children.

I think I put Spidey in a coma. Not a DJ...it has happened before!!!

LOL

Just a silly, suddenly insecure bump...

LA

No, LA, you didn't put me in a coma -- the flu did. I've been down for a day and a half. Spent most of today recovering from that and trying to finish a few projects around the house at half-speed before my wife returns from her trip. This is one of her EN's -- that I finish up the myriad little projects I have running around the house. I really am trying to be a good Plan A soldier.

I appreciate, deeply, your response and the time it took to prepare. I can't say I've absorbed it all yet, but I do recognize the wisdom in what you are saying.

It hurts to acknowledge that we may not be in recovery -- I just don't know. She says she's committed to staying with me and wants to make our marriage work. But I'm having trouble trusting both her and myself. As most BS do, I worry I'm reading too much into gestures and silences and not paying enough attention to what she is saying and doing.

I find myself hating my life more and more -- not in a suicidal way, but in a "how did I end up here" and "what's wrong with me that she'd do this twice" sort of way.

I do feel the disjointedness of trying to get her to trust me and open to me while I'm monitoring her actions. It's only one of the paradoxes of the betrayed spouse -- I want her to be honest, yet to ensure her honesty, I can't tell her everything. That is, until she becomes transparent.

I know from listening to a few conversations she had with friends immediately following D-Day that she stated two things that I might require are "deal breakers" -- having access to her accounts and not having lunches with "friends" of hers that are men (just the two of them). So, I'm worried about how doggedly I should pursue transparency until she shows that she might be ready for that.

Given that she has seen so little in me of value as it is, I guess I believe she'd actually walk out before she'd agree to these things.

As far as "Why" I want the questions answered, I admit it's for several reasons.
1. I want her to honestly try and answer some of the more difficult issues instead of "I don't know" and "It doesn't matter anymore".
2. I need to know she's not protecting him or anything they did.
3. I think I deserve it.

OK, so the last reason is probably selfish and bad, but it's the truth.

The question is time -- as you pointed out.

I don't know how long it will take for her to open up. I am Plan A'ing my butt off. I have read more books and articles and even re-read some from the first time around. I'm not sure what is working and what isn't. If I thought she wouldn't walk out on me, I'd tell her of the ways I'm monitoring her (sounds way too creepy when I type it).

Yes, I'm caught between what I know and what she tells me. Knowing she's not being 100% truthful about their relationship seems more hurtful than if she just told me everything plain out.

So what's a realistic timeline. I know that can't really be answered -- but when do I say, "OK, we should be beyond this point by now." I'm having a hard time waiting. There has to be a point at which I determine that "We are stagnant in growth, not moving forward, not getting better." What then?

I'm sorry for the stream of consciousness format, but I truly have a million different feelings about all of this at any one time. I know I'm not alone in this, but it seems that way sometimes.

Thanks for your time, support and help.

Oh, my sympathy for the flu...and praise you got through it. If you did. Be careful. Might come back. Yech!

You said what I posted will take you time to absorb. I get that a lot. Can you tell me if it is code for I'm just too darn wordy? And you're welcome. You're worth anyone's effort. Pleasure was mine.

"It hurts to acknowledge that we may not be in recovery -- I just don't know. She says she's committed to staying with me and wants to make our marriage work"

My experience says, you are in recovery. This process does not take away your distrust, fear or other feelings. No relief yet. Sorry to be the one to tell you, Plan A soldier. Tell me what you were expecting to feel?

This pain of yours is coming from you and your belief whether you're in recovery or not. Not her. Good to know, huh? Your choice.

You control yourself...do not allow yourself to read her, at all, only hear her words. Her truth. End of it. Then you will hear and not read. They get in the way of each other. Stop it.

As for getting the projects done...see your payoff as well. How did you feel each time (long ago) that you promised to do something and didn't? Agreed to something you didn't want to do? What did you feel?

"I find myself hating my life more and more" Growth mandates pain. Hating your life now is because you expected different. You did that. You give yourself permission to expect the unreal. That permission causes pain. Stay here and now and the hatred will lessen. Stop expecting different...you can't see the blessing of your life right now, but you can choose to trust that you will. You can find your gratitude, accept that you don't like being here, but that you're here.

Love yourself more. You're worth it. You were made worth it by God. You are valuable, whole and complete. You are loved. Get over it. You are. No action by anyone can take that from you...you were living before like that wasn't the truth of being human. Now you can live the truth. You can give away all of that, see yourself as erased, replaced, unlovable, deserving of betrayal, but that doesn't make it the truth. You are the same as every human, including your FWW, on the planet. Equal. Seperate. Own it.

"I do feel the disjointedness of trying to get her to trust me and open" You are feeling disjointedness because you are being manipulative. Stop it. Insert respect here. Makes recovery fly by. The other way will creep and causes implosions.

Know that you operated from the belief that you can control others, change their responses by your actions and get what you want, need and desire, if only...and you did it your whole life, not just in the marriage.

Free yourself from this belief. It is a lie you were told and continued to tell yourself. It is unworkable. Full of pain and torment...because it is not truth.

"Given that she has seen so little in me of value as it is, I guess I believe she'd actually walk out before she'd agree to these things." Respect her choices...and that she chooses her life, everything in it...those are hers. Not yours. Hands off.

Given that she has seen so little in you of value...means she is currently blind, choosing not to acknowledge your worth to her, because it annihilates her because of her previous choices. Not your doing. Your value is unaffected. She saw much in you to value...to love, cherish and marry. It comes back. With a vengeance. My H and I are proof. We have become priceless to each other, where we had a set value before. We did it by seperating ourselves from our previous enmeshment...he determined my worth and I determined his. Lousy way to live.

Let me know when you really get this respect belief going. Then ask me your questions. They'll be different.

"am Plan A'ing my butt off." If you feel your choice of actions is difficult and costing you something, stop. You're not in Plan A if you feel this.

I like stream of consciousness format. Works for me. Feels truthful and intimate.

Tell me what you believe about judgment...what it gives you...

Tell me who you are and what you're capable of...it IS all about you.

Tell me why right now isn't good enough for you that you are asking to be told your future, even though you state you know it can't be told.

If you know you're not alone, and you still feel it sometimes, then you don't know it. IMO.

Here for ya...unless you're puking, coughing, sneezing or phlegming the monitor.

LA

Thanks, I'm back at about 90% duty -- I'll wear latex gloves when I type so I don't spread anything -- computer viruses and all, you know.

I wouldn't characterize your advice as wordy -- just complex and deep. Very thoughtful and requires much thought to ensure all it's value is extracted. Sort of like reading a book vs. watching a film -- one is cognitively active the other cognitively passive. Reading your posts is active -- it's a good thing.

As for recovery, I guess I was hoping to feel more relief that she has chosen me again and I can focus on her and stop worrying about the OM. I'm not feeling that -- perhaps my own fault and imagination -- I said I have trouble reading gestures and signs. I wanted to come to a quiet place where it would be just the two of us, but the rest of the world just doesn't want to slow down for us. I'm sure I was hoping for the unrealistic and need to appreciate what I have and make the most of my opportunity to show her the value in staying married.


But in listening to her "truth" I find myself thinking that believing her is what kept me from finding out about the A for so long. She told me they were just friends. It wasn't until I read her that I knew she was lying and investigated to find the real truth. Perhaps I'm missing your point, but it seems hard if not dangerous to automatically believe what she tells me all the time. I know it is bringing me pain and not allowing myself to believe her, but I'm not ready to fully trust her words.

Yes, quite certainly, seeing her appreciation of the final touches to the jobs (the bathroom in this case) was satisfying. I know they probably should have been done quite a while ago, but I'm trying to change that about myself.

I know I am of value to my children and to my work. At some level, I know my wife values me. I just don't know how to separate my personal sense of worth and pride from the knowledge that she chose to value a relationship with another over a relationship with me. I'm really not a bad person or unlovable. I'm not as good looking or fun to be with or maybe as rich as he was/is, but I have always been loving to my wife and cherished her. I firmly believe she'd back that up. One of my biggest hurdles to overcome is the knowledge that I gave her my best -- everything I had to make her love me and she still chose another. That doesn't say much about my best.

Manipulative -- yeah, I'll buy that. Trying to get her to see the world and the pain through my eyes can be viewed as manipulative. Getting her to view the urgency of recovery as I do can only be done through prodding her along down the right path to the greener pasture when she'd rather stop at a lesser quality place along the way. I know I'm trying to move along on my timetable, but I feel a countdown to insanity starting. Most of the signs I see from her so far can be grouped in the "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one your with" category. That song and the song "Secret Lovers" top my list of most hated songs for obvious reasons.

I'm sure part of my problems extends from wanting things to be better but differently than she wants them to be better. I want the A behind us because we have named it, discussed its cause and how to protect ourselves from it in the future. She wants it behind us because we've run from it, buried it and pretended it didn't exist.

I'm trying to explain to her that I've come to the place where the A is a "fact of history". A fact as plain and true as where we were married, how many kids we have and who put the first dent in the first new car we bought (she did). The facts don't change with time, but the pain and sorrow they bring does lessen. I'm at that point where I still feel pain and hurt over the A, but have to name it as fact and not run from its existence. She's still running.

So my beliefs about judgement are the framework in which I view my world, my marriage, my wife, my children, the A, my self. Passing judgement isn't always a bad thing, in my opinion. It's when I stick to my first judgement even when the facts say otherwise that I'm being distructive and hindering progress. I'm fully capable of being an open minded guy who sees alternative viewpoints and the most stubborn block of unmoving oak in the world -- it's a gift.



Right now isn't good enough because it is limbo. Plan A, in my opinion, is all about limbo. The BS is trying to be as loving and giving as possible to the WS to help them rise above the fog and confusion so they can see the error of their ways and choose the marriage over the A (that's how I've interpreted it). This is helpful and necessary to lead toward recovery, but for the BS it can sometimes seem like limbo -- continually doing and being with little to no sight of the benefit that awaits. There are glimpses of the real person that your WS used to be, can be, maybe trying to be -- those are priceless and fuel for the BS's engines. But many times it falls on the BS to pull the main load of the marriage, family, relationship, etc through the Plan A period. That's tough.

Thanks for the words of wisdom. It's an uphill battle sometimes and it's nice to know the path has been successfully navigated by others.

"But in listening to her "truth" I find myself thinking that believing her is what kept me from finding out about the A for so long."

My off-the-mark...I inferred you meant that you "read" her..tone, gestures, body language...all those things inherent in assumptions and mindreading.

Uhm, not monitoring written (which is verbal). Oh, no. I did what I advised you not to do.

You said you got satisfaction from finishing the projects, too. Have you figured out why you didn't before?

No blame...just introducing you to you...all those whys that get lost in our daily life with children and marriage.

"One of my biggest hurdles to overcome is the knowledge that I gave her my best -- everything I had to make her love me and she still chose another. That doesn't say much about my best."

Prepare for 2x4...

You did the best you knew how then, and now with what you know better...you do better. A lot of self-discovery comes with As...for the good, I believe. One of those is you can't be the same person you were before...you change and feel changed. Your best now is mightier than before...you will be more valued by your own self than before. Therein lies the difference.

You're absolutely normal in not having huge relief and joyful feelings at the beginning of recovery. Repeat to yourself, "She is choosing me." She really is--but even if she hadn't, you are irreplaceable. Know that. God didn't make another human like you. Whole and complete, just as you are, without action. You just are.

You already realize your feelings are your own...about OM, your FWW, everyone. That's a huge headstart. That your trust, believing your wife, has to be earned again. Slowly. POJA good ways to do that. I didn't stop monitoring for months. It isn't a dealbreaker because that need to monitor isn't about her actions anymore...it is about you healing yourself and regaining what was crushed.

Biggest mistake you can make is holding that measuring stick of yours to her progress...she's not you. You want real recovery (which includes her own personal recovery)...or do you want quick and easy bake, which will fall hard and fast...possibly into an exit A or divorce?

Notice your own progress and smash your measuring instruments. You have to put respect back into the marriage...that you're both seperate humans, responsible for their own feelings, thoughts and beliefs. The Listen and Repeat is the best first step in that process.

Oh, man..just read the lyrics portion. Ack! Ouch!! You are dangerous to yourself!! Pick your beliefs, sir. They aren't inherent, uncontrollable! They are yours. Do you feel responsible for her A? Is that why you'd stab yourself with allowing that thought to remain in your mind for more than one half second?

Whoa.

Hurts from here.

I know you know that she didn't love OM, right? You have figured that out by now?

Please share what caused the A, since your wife has discussed that with you.

"She wants it behind us because we've run from it, buried it and pretended it didn't exist." Just a check-in here...she did say these words, correct? I get confused...too many threads with similar stories.

You're in limbo because if the A has finished, then there's no more Plan A. There's recovery...MC, 15 hours of undivided attention, communication exercises...tons and tons of stuff you gotta do.

Parts of Plan A have become your way of life...knowing her ENs and yours; having eliminated all LBs, making those lovebank deposits, practicing the four rules...all that stuff. All the self-discovery parts don't stop. You still work on your own growth.

If you feel like you're pulling the main load...take a look at the realistic weight of it. I looked at my ENs...attention, affection, admiration and honesty and openness. Are these reasonable levels? Mine were high and therefore, my H fell short time and time again...which built resentment in me. Now, while waiting for recommitment and NC, I began self-care...writing in a journal (attention), pointing out to myself where I did something differently than before (admiration--like your projects), by consciously coaching myself; in my workouts, I began massaging my feet and calves, giving self-hugs and feeling how soft my own darn cheek was. I was making "I" statements, simple ones, often.

My ENs feel into reasonable with my own efforts and within a couple of months, H was filling them very well. Was he doing a lot more? Nope. Not even much more at all. Felt full, committed myself to make no new resentments daily...which gave him room to make lovebank deposits, not just those splendid event ones you mentioned.

Back to respect...judgment poops on respect. Right here, "I'm trying to explain to her that I've come to the place where the A is a "fact of history"." is where I see you not respecting yourself or your wife. "I'm trying to explain." Nope. You state. It is heard by both of you. Doesn't need more explanation. She's an adult and is listening. If you feel you're not being heard when you repeat, rephrase, etc...then you are expecting her reaction to be different--not that you aren't being heard.

That's your problem not hers, see? Your part is to state your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...as is hers. You don't do it to get her to act differently--you can't. You're informing. That's it. O&H doesn't come with any part that says, "Be O&H to get the results you want." Just says, to be true to your code, O&H is required by you.

Judgment brooks no acceptance. It can't...because judging a person is against the law of marriage and life. Judging their actions is another matter. Hard to know the difference...especially as an FWS. Judging others allows you to judge yourself--quite harshly, too. Try putting no judgment into your standards (what you won't allow yourself to do to others or yourself) and see how that works for you. Of course, if you do, you have to add it to your boundaries, what you won't allow others to do to you.

If your FWW says, "You just don't get it. You are so selfish!" Then you would say, "You're disrespectfully judging me. Please stop."

She can then say, "I don't believe you understand what I'm saying. I think you are using your pain to punish me."

Much better information without DJs, don't you think?

Anyway...lemme know what state of marriage you choose to be in, where you're at, and what steps (MC?) like those I described you guys can POJA.

You're in a really good spot, Spidey. You can do this...I may be way off base right now, but I'll get there.

LA