Thanks for your thoughts Mel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I understand what you are saying about making amends and that is primarliy why I do want to tell her.

The phone call is making me nervous. I know that she used to go into work later than him and that I could possibly reach her in the morning while he is not home. But, that is all based on what I knew previously, and things could have changed. Then, there is the issue that I would need to make this phone call from work if I do it at that time of the day. That would be difficult because I DON'T want to make the call from my cell phone and have her track me (unless you can block your # from a cell#???).

As far as a letter, I wouldn't put a return address on the envelope. But, I do risk the idea that she may never receive it and I would never know.

Much to think about. I won't be doing anything soon as I still need to work through it all yet.

Thanks again!

Edited to add:
What if I make the phone call and he answers? Do I just hang up?

2B,

This is the first time I have posted on GQ. Since my name and the name of my FWW were brought into the thread, I feel it is important that you receive some different perspective here.

1) Your husband, the most important person, the person with whom you should have a POJA, does not want you to expose for HIS valid reasons and feelings. And you want to disregard them because ...?

2) You want to violate no contact and reopen this because...?

3) You feel the need to "help protect" this OM's W and provide her the truth for what specific purpose?

If the affair is long over and your husband knows the whole truth, who is really being helped by the exposure? Be truthful as to your intent, motivation, action and consequence; What is in it for you?, What is best for your husband?, What is best for your marriage?

I strongly suggest you discuss this with a professional MC before taking the advice of all these very experienced advocates for the BS right to know.

Personally, the trauma caused by exposure 4 yrs after my wife's A was dead and buried, did more harm than good. What if your exposure leads to violence, accident, suicide, mental illness, screwed up kids, divorce from your husband, etc.? Hard questions, and the satisfaction of having "done the right thing" and lived by MB principles (Or AA principles of making amends) won't really mean much. The AA 9th step states: "Make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others".

Just my considered opinion, as we ALL are entitled to have.

pb, you did post on GQ last month so this is not the first time.

She would not be violating no contact,[no contact is with the OP] nor should that be used as an excuse to avoid doing the right thing. She is not considering contacting the OM, but his wife, the person to whom she owes an amends. This is right in line with Marriage Builders principles AND AA principles and just simple human decency. Dr. Harley very much agrees that exposure to the OP spouse is ALWAYS warranted. This is not a matter of POJA, as you infer, but a moral obligation.

Just because you didn't ever want to know about your wife's affair does not mean it is the right thing to do. Most people do not choose to live a life of ignorance about the truth of their own life. Most people don't choose to live in a marriage based on a lie, because true intimacy is impossible. You do, and that was your choice.

But pb, truth is the solution to adultery, not more lying. You may feel that the "exposure" caused you this harm, but it was actually the ADULTERY that caused you this harm. The truth hurt you. You may choose to blame the messenger, but she simply told you the truth, and that was what caused your pain. I guess its easier to shoot the messenger than the one who did the act about which she was truthful.

And that is my considered opinion, as we are all entitled to have. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Penalty Box,
I am so sad to see you this stand. Come on, you can not blame the problems in your marriage on someone else because they exposed to you, can you? Was your marriage so great before?

Maybe you thought it was, but you were living a lie.

Your FWS was living a lie and she was telling you a lie each and every day of your marriage.

What kind of life is that?

I sincerely doubt your marriage was a bed of roses before you found out.

And what in the world do you mean by advocates for the BS? Have you not seen BSs get 2x4 for laying down and doing nothing? Have you not really read here much?

Instead of sitting around whining that your relationship was ruined by the other person's spouse, why aren't you busting you butt to make your relationship better?

Don't you think that you knowing gives you the opportunity to do that?

Maybe you think your marriage was great- but I feel fairly strong that all the 'good' penalty was doign in your marriage was out of guilt. Is that good enough for you?

Wouldn't you rather her be working to improve your marriage with you?

Have you ever forgiven Penalty for the affair?

Wait, I just figured it out- just now as I was typing. Being mad at the OP's Spouse lets you transfer all the anger, frustration, etc to her- and not penalty. She is your scape goat. I doubt you'll see much improvement in your realtionship until you face the real issue- YOUR WIFE HAD AN AFFAIR. Not the other person TOLD you about the affair.

I am sorry for your pain, PB. I am. We have all been there. It hurts. Forgiveness is hard. The road to recovery is a miserable journey that feels like it will never end. If you work at it will.

Living a lie would have just been that - until something else or someone else exposed. The pain would have been delayed that much longer.

Besides, Dr. Harley said on his show this week that BOTH BSs and all of the older children should be told. I suppose you don't consider him a reliable MC?

p.s. Dr. Bill Harley is more than a qualified MC, he is a psychologist and world reknowned bestselling author who specializes in marriage and infidelity. So it is not your advice versus some BS' on this website, but rather your advice, based on your very personal, emotional experience, versus that of Dr. Harley, a highly experienced professional. He very much advocates telling the BS and has even commented on YOUR particular case on the radio on 2-16-06. Even so, one does not need a marriage counselor to know right from wrong.

I don't know much about Penaltybox's situation, but I can imagine the hurt that he felt after this woman exposed the affair after all this time.

I guess my real question as I've been thinking on all of this lately, is it really MY responsibilty to tell the OM's wife? Dropping a bomb like that on someone else's marriage without knowing what else may be going on doesn't seem right. Who knows what may be going on in their lives right now? Maybe he had another affair that they are recovering from right this minute. Or maybe they are dealing with a life and death health issue. I just don't see that it would be my place to expose like that.

Yes the OM's wife has a right to know, but is it not the OM's responsibility to tell her? Is it really my place? Exposure to her would be a different situation entirely if the affair had JUST happened and there was a threat to my marriage that this OM would be contacting me further.

I agree with making amends and doing so would be possible IF I knew in fact that this OM's wife knew of the affair. I made amends with the 2nd OM's wife and the 2nd OM made amends with my husband. We both had the opportunity to ask the spouse for forgiveness of our wrongdoing. BUT, in that case we BOTH knew that each of our spouses knew of the affair.

BTW, I did listen to Dr. Harley on the radio program today. I plan on NOT doing anything yet until I first talk to my husband and secondly get advice from either Harley or another professional on my particular situation.

ROTFLMAO

2BNormal, it is the OM's responsibility to tell her, along with yours. You are the ones who inflicted the harm, after all. But, it is really the reponsibility of any decent person who KNOWS. All the rationalizations in the world will not erase the obligation that is the foundation of simple human decency.

If you know your neighbor is being harmed behind his back, wouldn't you feel obliged to warn him, regardless of WHO was inflicting the harm? Or would you rationalize it away by saying it wasn't your obligation?

The bottom line is that this woman has a right and a need to know. Truth is the solution to adultery, not more secrecy, not more lies. This is a woman who could have possibly contracted STDs from her H but not ever know it becasue no one has the decency to tell her the truth.

And you know what Dr Harley's advice is. We have already shown you this. He commented on penaltybox' situation on 2-16-06 and agreed that it was good he was told about the affair. Even so, one should not need the advice of a "professional" to know right from wrong. If so, I question whether that person should be walking about freely.

What does this mean?



Is this the thread you showed me earlier? I agree it was good that Penaltybox was told about the affair, but I really think it should have been his wife that told him. As I said, I don't know the entire situation but only what was said above here by Penaltybox himself.


I agree truth is the solution, but it is the OM that is NOT BEING TRUTHFUL to his wife. I told my husband. He has the responsiblity to tell her, and HOW do I know that he has NOT already done this?

I do thank you for your input. I just have to really think and pray about this AND talk to my husband about it.

2BNoraml, it is the responsibility of whomever knows, and most especially, the PERSONS WHO HARMED HER to tell her. That would be YOU!

And you wouldn't know if he has already told her.......until you CALL HER.

Penaltybox's wife DID NOT TELL him, so he was left to find out by her other victim, the other BS. It matters NOT A WHIT who tells the victim; what counts is that the victim IS TOLD. That is what matters. The messenger is not relevant, what is relevant is the delivery.

And yes, Dr Harley specifically commented on penaltybox's situation where the other BS told pb about the affair FOUR YEARS after the fact. Dr. Harley knew about his situation and agreed it was good he was told.

And I hope you do choose to do the right thing, but find the endless rationalizations to be very tiring....and transparent. Just do the right thing, 2BNormal.

This is from Penaltykill directly to 2Bnormal:

Dr. Harley commented on our case? Now isn't that special. And he did this without hearing from either myself or my husband? Amazing. Just by hearing from a caller, um, exactly what? What I have written and my husband has written on an infidelity forum? Or, rather, someone's paraphrasing of words written here? This caller does not know us, does not know what went on in our marriage, this was on a RADIO SHOW, and posters here expect you to it as the gospel truth for us and our marriage.

Please. ROTFLMAO indeed. (rolling on the floor, laughing my @$$ off)

2B, please go back up to the top of this thread and read what Gimble and K wrote. As a FWW, I can tell you that any contact at all will set you back. I can tell you that there must be a POJA in your marriage. I can tell you that your M is your priority - nothing else. I can tell you that the truth can become a weapon to hurt and nothing more, as it was in my case.

ML stated that there is "always a "struggle" in restoration of a marriage after an affair" Always and never are words that a good counselor will tell you are verboten for good communication. There is no "always", there is no "never". But some people prefer the relative comfort and safety of absolutes. You don't have to think as hard that way, after all.

Here's my situation: I ended my A myself. The contact was so very infrequent that my H never suspected a thing. I was immensely conflicted about what I was doing, I knew it was wrong. There was no struggle to restore out marriage when I ended the A. There was no further contact with OM. There was no withdrawal, I had relief instead. I had made a horrible choice. I lived the next four years being the best wife and mother I could be, completely open to my H. (2b, when I related my story in another thread, ML called me a "liar" a "cheat" and a person who "screwed" another woman's H. Is this a person that you want to take advice from?)

My H was totally unhinged by the exposure - not the A, as some will undoubtedly argue, but the exposure. If he had gotten in a car accident, and left our children fatherless, would exposure still have been a good thing? The posters in this thread would still be cheering that at last he had the truth, there in his coffin. Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Exposure in my case was a dirty bomb, as someone mentioned, not a sniper rifle. Had it come at a timely moment, four years prior or earlier, then it would have done some good. Now? No.

Exposure, as my H and I agree, was not good for us. I'm really not interested in what anyone who wasn't there has to say about it.

Exposure is not one size fits all. There are always going to be different circumstances. I think exposure has its place in ending an A. Beyond that, no.

2b, I urge you to speak to a real counselor, with your H. Together you can decide what is best for your M. The posters here are not counselors, many of them are BS with an agenda - for the BS. Notice that ML mentioned that she refrained from telling her father the truth about her sister's parentage on his deathbed. Do you not see the irony here? When is the truth not to be told? When it will not do more harm than good.

2B, take care. Talk to your H. This is for the both of you to decide together.

2B,

I can tell you this...one day, months or years from now, when OM's wife does find out, this whole DRAMA in your lives will likely need to be addressed again. Telephone calls and letters will likley ensue and NO CONTACT will again be broken. I say better now than later.

You and your husband will have anxiety over this other "SHOE waiting to drop" forever.

Exposure to OM's wife will be a critical step in YOUR recovery. It will be a weight off YOUR conscious. I truly wish OM would do it; but, if not...you're the next most responsible person.

Get'er done.

Mr. Wondering

To Penaltykill -
Thank you for coming on here and sharing your story.I appreciate your honesty and your point of view. I didn't know it and would NOT take another's word for what exactly happened without actually reading it for myself.


Yes, I harmed her, but SO did her husband! He has the responsibity to tell HIS WIFE. I read through again what you posted from the article from Harley on this site. NOWHERE in that article does it say that it should be I doing the telling. It ONLY talks about the WS telling the BS in their OWN marriage. I don't see how you can apply that to my situation from that article alone.

IF the OM was a threat to my marriage and IF the affair JUST ended, I totally agree that his wife should be told. But the fact is that is not the case and my husband and I did not do that at the time. I understand that you talked to Dr. Harley on the radio program and he feels that the other BS should be told ALWAYS. I didn't hear his words myself, nor the question asked. Why doesn't HE say that specifically ON THIS SITE???? I do not see that statement anywhere and IF he is so very adament about that, then I believe it would be written on this very site. IF I had missed that somewhere, please, I ask you to KINDLY point that out to me. The article you showed me did not say that the OW (me) should tell the OM's Wife.



ML - They are not rationalizations in my mind. It is processing what I'm hearing here by you and everyone else and making a decision on what I believe is best for MY marriage.



Believe me, my husband and I have discussed this. We have discussed the possibility of this happening. I had mentioned earlier that this OM has in his possession pictures of the 2 of us together and a letter from me. I have considered what may happen IF his wife found these in his home.

My husband is a very smart guy...and I will discuss all of these issues WITH him and make a decision WITH him. I have asked for advice here, and I appreciate the advice. What I don't appreciate are the comments from some that make me feel as IF I don't want to do the right thing.

2BNormal, please note the above post from penaltybox is is actually written by his FWW, penaltyKILL, which would explain why it is full of self serving rationalizations and excuses you would come to expect from a WS who is angry because she was recently busted.

Dr. Harley not only knew about her thread and her situation, but didn't need to know any more than that to know that exposure would be the best answer. He affirmed that exposure was the BEST THING, to the displeasure of penaltykill. I can't imagine what other "special circumstances" [read: rationalizations] would cause her to imagine he would rule otherwise, but she is always free to call and find out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She, the WS who had the most to hide, chooses instead to question the experienced, professional judgment of a man who has saved untold numbers of marriages. I think I would take his experienced, professional advice over that of a bitter, angry woman who was recently outed by the other BS after lying to her own H for FOUR YEARS. Harley has saved hundreds of marriages, her own is a mess.

But, don't take my advice, or the advice of anyone on here. Call Dr. Harley yourself and get his input. Outside of that, you know the right thing to do, 2BNormal. You don't need a "counselor" to know right from wrong. The bottom line is that you don't need our approval or the approval of anyone else. Just do what you need to do and consider the opinions you heard here honestly.

Hey Penalty Kill,
Funny thing you can tell her not to listen to us, yet you want her to listen to you?

Hello!!! you lied to your husband for 4 years!!!! Hey what kind of a relationship was that? Huh?

You were the best wife you could be right? and the whole time you were living a lie. I am sure being a dutiful wife out of guilt made you the best wife possible.

Very interesting perspective you have on this,isn't it?

You and your husband are so fortunate that you can blame the OMW for all your trouble. Most of us don't have that luxuary. Nope, we have to take responsibilty for own actions. Instead of having to deal with your own mistakes, you can blame all your problems on a vindictive OMW.

As for ML calling you a liar and a cheater and saying you screwed someone elses husband, well, ummm, what part of that was not true? You did lie to your husband for years. You cheated or else OMW would not have had anything to blab about. And didn't you screw her husband?

But, I forgot, you don't deal with that, do you? You just put all your energy into focusing on the problems the exposure caused- not the reason you were exposed- lor lying, cheating and screwing someone's husband.

2b,
I sincerely believe you want to do what is right. How about this scenerio. Sit down with your husband and tell him that you are still living with the guilt of the A and the fact that his wife does not know. Tell him that dealing with the guilt is important to your personal recovery.

Tell him you believe the OMW needs to know the truth so she has the optioin of working on her marriage or on doing what she feels is best.'

Ask him to get on the phone with you and make the call togehter.

Tell the OMW the truth, apologize for your part in the A, tell her and have your husband tell her, that you two are recovering. Maybe you can even offer her the names of the books here as resources as she makes her own decision.

Tell her that you will not make contact ever again.


I would do anything to help my FWS in his personal recovery. I hope yours will help you.

moveforward,
Thank you for your kind words and advice. As I mentioned, I will be discussing this together with my husband and we will decide the best way to handle it. I do not want any further contact with this FOM of the past!

As do YOU. If you harm someone, *YOU* have a responsibility to warn them. If you KNOW someone has been harmed you have a responsility to warn them. If you know your neighbors bookkeeper has embezzled money from him can ONLY his WIFE tell him? HUH? That makes no sense, 2BNormal. Whomever knows has a responsibility to warn the OMW, and yours is a greater responsibility because you caused the harm.


It is becasue he is SPEAKING TO the WS in that particular letter. It NEVER says this "only applies to a WS telling his own spouse." It outlines his GENERAL PRINCIPLE on exposure which applies TO ALL. He doesn't have to specify every timeline and every imaginable scenario to convey a general principle. He further affirmed his views on exposure to the other spouse when he commented on penaltykills situation which was exposed FOUR YEARS LATER.

2BNoraml, honestly you don't need our approval to not do this. Just drop it and move on. I have been endlessly patient with you and don't appreciate having my intelligence insulted with these endless rationalizations. I can see them for what they are, a transparent justification to avoid doing the right thing. But you don't NEED to justify yourself. Just say "I ain't gonna do it" and move on. No need for elaborate justifications.

ML - I am sorry you feel that I am insulting your intelligence, but at the same time *I feel* that you are insulting MY intelligence by what you say to me. I sincerely came on here asking for advice, and I said several pages back that I will take all that has been spoken into consideration.

I NEVER EVER said I was avoiding doing the RIGHT thing! The RIGHT thing in your eyes and your opinion is dropping a BOMB on this unsuspecting woman because she has a right to know! I don't know what is going on in their marriage and their life right now. I am a considerate and caring person or else I would NEVER have come on here to ask this in the first place.

As I said before and I will say again, I want to do the right thing (please don't change my words to say I'm trying to avoid doing the right thing!).

I WILL be sharing ALL that has been said here with MY HUSBAND and WE will be deciding TOGETHER the best course of action.

I sincerely thank all who have offered their advice to me.

Thanks for the apology, 2BNormal. And I do hope you do the right thing. Like I said before, I believe your heart is in the right place and also believe this will be the key to your own personal recovery.

From personal experience, making amends to those I had harmed transformed me as a human being and made me an equal partner in the human race. [character is HOW we handle our shortcomings, after all] It allowed me to truly forgive myself. It is ALWAYS a risky thing to make amends, believe me, but the benefits are usually great for both parties. Most BS' greatly appreciate being told the truth so it is most likely she will be extremely grateful to you.

Take care, 2BNormal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ML -
Thank you for replying and understanding. I will try to give an update when I have the chance to discuss this with my husband.

God bless!