Myrta,

You pretty much asked the $64,000 question. Can you go back 4 or 5 posts and answer my question to your question? I know what advice your Stan-ley gave me on that topic a couple of days ago.

You guys chatted all night! (for me). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

These differences in local times are realy bothersome.

I just ot up and read the whole chat.

Plan A actually starts on d day NOT when the affair ends because the whole purpose of plan A is to END the A and correct the BS contribution to what made it possible in the first place.

Plan A should last as long as the BS is not losing his love for the WS. When that begins to happen, plan B should begin.
The purpose of plan B is to protect the BS and his/her love for the WS UNTIL the A ends or the BS actually personally recovers and decides that he/she doesn't want the marriage any longer. Plan B is ALL ABOUT THE BS.

Now in your case Traicionado, I believe you are doing a great plan A. What I'm not sure about is what's happening with Gemela and the A. From what you post,you don't know either because she is not talking.

She doesn't seem to be in withdrawal, she's not working on recovery, has she admitted the A was wrong or told you that she has decided that she wants to stay in the marriage and will do whatever it takes? what is the situation?

If she were in withdrawal, you would need to be patient.
If you were in recovery you would be talking about your marriage and your relationship.

The only other possibility I see is that the A continues. An EA of course.

Now, before you "kick her out" I think you need to find out, find proof, then you would have to confront her,and I think you would still have some exposure, and then according to her reaction decide what to do.

Maybe you should make a summary of the situation and ask the more experienced people here to give you some guidance.

first things first:

ToddAC,

Told ya! Told ya!

Okay, got that out of my system

cc46,

The question is more fundamental than that. The question is not what is she doing and what I am going to do about it. The question is hypothetical and is what I would do if I found out. As I have mentioned before, I have assumed that she is still in an EA, still in contact and doing everything I can to avoid finding out because it will make it almost impossible for me to continue in Plan A. So it is really a "what if" scenario. I am not trying to find out. I am not trying to catch her.

I will say I have thought about this some more and my actions may well depend on the source of the knowledge. If WW were to tell me herself she was still calling, I bet I would take no action whatsoever. That is because I would value the honesty over the pain of the betrayal.

WW has said the words that she has decided to stay and commit herself to the M. The proactive actions have yet to materialize from my POV. Being patient....

I am not disagreeing with you cc46 - I am trying to make sense out of the biggest doubt I have and value this discussion.

thanks,

Oh and ToddAC, Told ya!

Before I give you my opinion, let me warn you that I have only been on MB for about 18 months and I had no previous knowledge of this subject. Some people have been here years and have seen a lot of situations.

My perception is that plan A becomes "enabling the affair" at some point. If there is no exposure going on, if the WS isn't coming out of the fog i.e. withdrawal, or regret, or depression, anger, or some kind of change in their attitude, the A is still going on, even if it's only in the WS's mind and the OP is out of the picture, and plan A is no longer a plan to break up the affair and the first step in Dr. Harleys plan to "survive an affair". The affair is enabled.

There have been many threads here about whether plan A has gone on too long or not.

Anyway, you could also mail Dr. Harley and get his opinion. He answers inmediately.

BTW, have you read Bob Pure's thread? he even has a summary of the whole thing. I think you would be very interested in it.

Another thing, not wanting to find out is NOT fighting for your marriage. Personally I think you have to find out what is going on. If you are sure that the A is over you have to find out what Gemela is thinking. From your posts, I stll get the impression that she's trying to ignore it all

Hmm Traicionado.....Let me give you my take on this as a FWW. I mantained phone contact with OM for some time after DD. Even though I was talking to OM I was still working on the recovery of my marriage. Even if that sounds contradictory. Its very very difficult to cut all contact suddenly with OM. The addiction to the Affair its so strong that is practically impossible to cut completely and never look back. Especially because OMs still working on their smooth talk and you feel guilty and bad for them!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. But the talks were scarce and dry, not like before, but we did still talk. He would call my house, give me guilty trips, and I would talk and try to make him feel better. But at the same time, would tell him that I was working on the marriage.

When my husband found out, he was very hurt and angry with me, but he did not kick me out the door. You know what he made me do? He made me change my cell phone,house phone and my screen name, email address. OM would send me messages once in a while in my email or leave love messages in my away messages. So, OM was still trying to work on my mind, from far. But at this point the effect was not the same. After we cut physical contact things changed a lot. And of course the talks did too. Because he knew he had lost(OM) my husband was at my side, and he was not. But his hopes of us running away into the sunset" were with him for a long time.

So, to answer your question.....the reason for you to mantain your wife? Its, that you love her, that you are working in the recovery of the marriage, that you want your girls to have BOTH parents together, and most important, that you LOVE her, and dont want to see her completely ruining her life!! Those should be your reasons for staying with her, even after finding out, that she was still mantaining contact.

It is easier to give up, than to work in the marriage, I know that. My husband wanted to give up many times with me. But he did not and we are almost two years after DD, very happy with each other. Traicionado, I feel so loved by my husband that it sends me butterflies to my stomach!! Your wife is very young, I am sure you can make her fall in love with you completely again. Romance her, love her, admire her,value her like she is a jewel and she will fall in love with you again. Her OM sounds really dumb and inmature, and he is way too young for her, and I am sure he does not love or value her. Even if she is still talking to him, every time they talk, little things that he says, will make her open her eyes to his true self. So, just be strong , I am sure you can make it in your marriage.

Do you think you have the strenght,the patience and the love to do it??

Myrta

I agree with Myrta (sorry cc). I've posted with her from the start, and she reminds me of Gemela, although Myrta was a little less compliant. She used to get angry at posters and kick them off her thread.

But look at her now, she's one of our most helpful posters.

Well to be fair, cc46 is not the only person giving me this advice which is why I find it very interesting. I will try to answer Myrta's question ... Yes.

Will the calls eventually die a death on their own? Each call is still a deception - furthering the lie. I don't care that they chat and coo and say their ILY's. I think it is pathetic. It doesn't make me mad. What does bother me is the feeling of wasted effort. Yes it is far easier to quit. I always knew that. However, I think you captured my motives in a nutshell.

I was watching a program on John Nash this PM and, due to sleep deprivation, I may have nad an encounter with that same coyote that Homer Simpson met in the desert after the chili cookoff. Anyway, I have decided that I am having a Crazy Ivan and am even going to grab the acronym CI if it is not already taken. I will write about the CI in the morning because for anyone who might be following this thread, I think it may be important.

Thanks Myrta, cc46 and believer for the discussion. I guess I am still on the right track but it doesn't hurt to get the compass out every now and again.

Traicionado....I fully understand that would be really dissapointing to find out. But ......if you think ab out it..finding out about the affair..was the biggest blow and dissapointment that anyone could have. But yet, you wanted to get your wife, you wanted to end the affair. So, why should a few calls make such a big difference to you. When you come to MB, you soon find out, that calls, continous contact,etc, "is par for the course". Is not an easy task to end everything that an affair brings into one's life. Is such work, such effort,its exhausting, for all parts involved.

You sound very tired, when a person is so exhausted you see no end to misery, you see no resolve of matters. You just see ugly things ahead of you. You have to rest, sleep,eat well and you will see things differently.

Your wife does not want to end the marriage, she wants to make it work. But she feels weak, she feels like she can't, she has the pressure of OM. But she still wants to remain married.

Have you talked to OM? Has she changed her cell phone, her e-mail,etc.? If she hasn't , she should!! You have to put road blocks to OM. she has to see that there is no way in ******, he is going to continue this.

How is your daughter today? I hope she is better. Did you stayed by her side all night? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

If she were serious about trying, she wouldn't call or talk to him.


Traicionado:

Harley says that the WS actually falls in love with OP in a romantic affair. But, there is more; the intensity of that love is probably much higher than the love they had for the spouse during courting. In any relationship the initial love feelings tend to be strong because the relationship is not yet secure. Any obstacle fuels the passion. The obstacles in an affair are monumental. The relationship becomes “Us against the world” and the love feelings are very strong and hence they lead into the fog.

What is my motivation?

As I said above. The love in an affair is very intense; but there is more. The WS is expected to end this highly intense relationship in an instant. The best analogy I can think is “coitus interruptus” or trying to stop an orgasm once it has started. These are bad analogies, but indicate how hard it must be for the WS to suddenly end all communication.

If you go back to normal open relationships you will see that the end is always gradual and the communication lessens over time. In addition, the end of a relationship in daylight starts after things go sour. For affair partners things are not going sour and they have high-enhanced feelings for reasons stated above. In fact, I told my wife that if ever fall for another woman the way she fell for her OM I would be a goner. Perhaps this can give you some empathy. Also understand that every love unit she gave OM was subtracted from you. If she was 100% in love with OM she had nothing left for you other than the LONG TERM ATTACHMENT love that is different from early lusty love. You must wait.


Will there ever come a time when I will be able to start healing?

The only thing that can heal you is time. You can mend the marriage or you can get a divorce. However, in the end you will be healed by father time. Probably 2-5 years. Of course, some folks never heal.

If WW were to tell me herself she was still calling, I bet I would take no action whatsoever. That is because I would value the honesty over the pain of the betrayal.

This is quite correct. When Myrta kept talking to OM I was mostly hurt because she had the audacity to betray me once again even thou she saw how wounded I was.



Myrta said:

Even if that sounds contradictory. It’s very difficult to suddenly cut all contact with OM. The addiction to the Affair its so strong that is practically impossible to cut completely and never look back. Especially because OMs still working on their smooth talk and you feel guilty and bad for them!!

This is something I failed to understand early on. However, in her quest to slowly dump OM Myrta caused a lot of damage to OM. Every time Myrta said something to ease the pain of OM she did nothing but give him hope. Therefore, the OM became a pest and stalker. If she had cut ties in a more definite manner OM would have suffered less. However, like the song says----“Breaking up is hard to do”.


Myrta said:

But the talks were scarce and dry, not like before, but we did still talk. He would call my house, give me guilty trips, and I would talk and try to make him feel better. But at the same time, would tell him that I was working on the marriage.

This was the reason why OM never went away. Myrta gave him nothing but hope with her little talks to ease him down gently. I know in my heart Myrta did not want to leave, but in the aftermath of the affair people have a hard time cutting all ties.

So, it will not be easy. Myrta has been one of the most cooperative FWWs in MB and still you can see how the addiction gets in the way.

Traicionado,

I think you are a very intelligent and kind person and I'm sure you will figure out for yourself what you have to do.

One thing that no one can deny is that we can only control ourselves and we must be responsible for our own actions.

If you want some interesting reading look up Faithinme's thread. In just a few months you will go through the whole "natural history" of an affair , with MB treatment and a real ending. So is Bob Pure's.

Dr. Harley himself said: there is plan A and plan B, and no others.
Of course you don't have to follow Dr. Harley's plans. In the end, statistically speaking, there doesn't seem to be much difference in the number of divorces or non divorces whether youuse Dr. Harley's ideas or not. The main difference is the quality of the relationship you obtain after you survive the affair. At least that's my point of view.

Okay traicionado, okay! Sorry for the disinformation. I reread the article and see where I got confused.

cc46,

Yes I read Bob Pure's thread a while back. Even have a pair of Diesel boxer shorts tucked away just in case. BTW, your thoughts are identical to those of someone else who has been helping me. I absolutely agree that Plan A can get to the point where it becomes enabling and I always feel I face that risk. Maybe my plan A is too good in a sense. The sad part is that is no longer a plan. It has become me or I have become it. The only part of the Plan that remains a true plan is avoiding LB's as much as possible.

Stan-ley,

If WW is calling OM, she is doing it from public phones or has an accomplice here. I doubt the latter because it would mean she was disclosing everything to that person. I have enough information to convince myself that she is not making contact from our house. I can find no evidence that OM is calling here. She could have another secret cell phone hidden away. That is a real possibility but finding it would be almost impossible and a major LB. My best guess is that she is getting money from somewhere to buy phone cards or, more likely, they have a preset schedule whereby she goes to a certain public phone at a predetermined time each day and waits for his call. Either that or the hidden GSM are the most logical.

On the other hand, maybe she is not talking to him at all - but, if she were not talking to him, I would expect her to be behaving a lot differently by now because officially she should have not spoken a word to him since January 26th.

If she still is in contact, I don't know how I would prevent it completely short of having her followed 24/7 and, as I have said before, I would rather be divorced. I will not allow myself to be consumed by paranoia. I have to draw the line somewhere and that is where it fell. It is ultimately WW's responsibility to stop the A and nobody else's

Myrta,

Yes I was tired yesterday. I left work at noon - not because I was falling asleep but because I was afraid I was going to say something to someone I would regret. I came home and slept for about 1.5 hours. I was standoffish to WW for pretty much the same reason I left work. DDs are mostly recovered from food poisoning but WW and I had planned to go to Khobar to get the rest of the things we needed for the Bday party this weekend so she and I left at 3:30.

Crazy Ivan (or CI): I have been doing my best on Plan A for almost 2 months. I was on Plan A before that but not always a good one. All of the 2x4's here have pretty much hit their mark. I had dabbled with the 180 plan twice over the past few months and both times there were positiveish results. I don't like the 180 plan that much but I can still see some merit to parts of it at times. In the movie (and book) "The Hunt for Red October", the Russian submarine kept a constant course most of the time but, every onece in a while, doubled back just to keep anyone that might be behind him on his toes. Tom Clancy called that a "Crazy Ivan". Once the CI was done, the submarine went right back on its original course.

I had a CI yesterday. While WW was getting ready to go to Khobar, I was trying to keep busy. I found one set of sheets and mattress pad already dry (we had to wash vomit off everything!) so I went to DDs room to make one bed. There was a song on the radio that I have been trying to get the name of for months. I want to download it or buy it but need the name (it is instrumental only). You don't know how badly I want it. If you need to know why, ask and I will tell you otherwise it is not important. Anyway, I closed the door so I would not have to listen to Dora the Exploradora talking on DD's laptop next door and listen to the song. I was making up the bed and, don't know why, just broke down. I haven't done that in a long while. Maybe I was just tired. WW could not hear me as the door was closed. After about a minute I got myself back together, finished the bed and went downstairs to wait for WW.

In route to Khobar, I stayed quiet, kept my distance, did not initiate conversation but responded appropriately, etc. Sort of a mini-180 plan. WW asked me what was wrong. Asked if I was mad. I said no I wasn't and then I used the same tactic on her that she always uses on me when I try to ask how she is doing. I snipped just a little and asked why something had to be wrong? She was not being very talkative either so do I need to be just chatting away all the time to make her happy? That sounds harsher than it really was but it is hard to explain. I did to her exactly what she always does to me. Unfortunately I don't think she will ever be able to realize that.

It is important on a CI to not let WW think I am angry with her because a CI is not about anger. The CI is a quasi-passive attempt to remind WW that all is not paradise and that there are still problems in the M that need to be addressed. I can't come right out and say this because it becomes an LB but the CI is a subtle reminder to WW that I do have feelings too. Whack me if you want but this is what preserves my sanity. This is my little "time out" from Plan A when I get tired. WW always responds positively to a CI as well. She quickly changes a few of her behaviors to be less self-involved. It has been my experience that a good CI should last 48 hours because a 24 hour CI can be misinterpreted as anger and that is a bad thing. The reason is that WW will do anything and everything to keep from making me mad. That is because she believes that, if I get mad, I may make her leave (IMO). In reality that is far from the truth but she lives with her own paranoia. The funny thing is that the only thing that truly will get me mad are continued phone calls to OM and that is the one thing she can't stop so she does everything else in her power to allow herself that one little luxury.

What gets me tiredest is the occasional regression into the thoughts and feelings of loneliness. I love WW still. She does not love me. I miss the love and wonder whether I am ever going to find love again with someone. I want to. Falling out of love with WW is a real risk and the longer she keeps the A going, the greater the risk becomes. I will just keep going and be patient and, every so often, fall into one of my CI's but then get back on course. I know I can't stay in the situation indefinitely. Right now I am okay but that is only because of the strength and courage I get from this forum. I have very limited support outside (except for ToddAC).

WW and I have MC session tomorrow. I will bring up that I think WW is still in contact with OM. I think that is the best and safest place to do it. It will show WW what I am feeling without being a LB. If she is still in contact, she can admit it (good in that it helps reestablish trust) or deny it (good in that she will have to swallow another lie and make her feel even worse about herself). If MC thinks NC is broken, it will force WW back into IC with no excuses because she will have to schedule the appointment then and there. I don't see a real downside to telling MC that.

Myrta,

Yes I love WW. Yes I want DD's to have the family that I never had. Yes I don't want WW to ruin her life. I would still trade my life for hers without hesitation if that need ever arose (and it could here). I am not sure I will ever be happy again but self-denial comes easy for me because my mother raised me that way (I love you Mother, if you read this).

Oh and ToddAC,

You are a good man. I'll respond to your email in just a bit. I hope all is going well on Plan B but you know I will always be here for you.

Traicionado-aka-CI---You know,,,its okay to get angry once in a while and show your wife. It will do you good. Stanley and I had big blowouts that helped us a lot. For him to get everything out of his chest, for me to see his anger and hurt,,it was good. I know is not recommended in MB to LB ,its not normal to be always walking in "eggshells" watching everything you say, filtering your thoughts before they come out of your mouth in order not to hurt the WS. Its just not normal to be that way, after such blow in your life.

I am going to have to agree with Believer, that your wife is similar to me. I, too, did not want to make my husband angry. I felt that I was walking in "eggshells" I did not want to upset him, fire him up in the wrong way. So everytime I saw him indifferent, or weird, or angry, I would tentatively asked him what was wrong with him. I was in such fear of him leaving me, of him getting tired of me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Gemela knows that is n ot all paradise,,come on, of course she knows that. How can it be paradise after what she did? If she seems to you like she is trying to "sweep everything under the rug" is because she wants this affair to dissapear from your mind. But it is impossible to make it dissapear, because it did happened. But Gemela can pretend everything is allright (she is doing that) Traicionado...this is big!! Gemela wants to vanish this from your life!! I appeared to be more collected than what I was in front of Stanley. Because I wanted to encourage him, to carry on like it was all normal between us. But HE knew and I knew it was not!!

I know it feels very lonely for you right now, because your wife is not fully participating like you want her to. But things will improve between both of you. When you say you love her "still" it appears like your love is less now. Is it? Do you feel you love her less? Is she killing your love? Or is just your lonely thoughts, your craving for the love of your wife that is making you talk like that? I hope is the latter.

Tomorrow in the MC bring up everything that bothers you. YOu have a good referee to watch both your words. Are you both going the full session? In our case,the first visits were together, then one week him, and then the next me. Then together again, and so forth. It worked out perfect. Because there were things that my husband did not want to address yet in front of me, and viceversa. I hope you have a good session!!

You are a very good man, strong and well put together. YOu will get thru this, other had and other will. Your mom raised a good human being and you will do the right thing, I am sure.

By the way, why do you want that song so badly? Who is the artist?

Myrta

If you believe in the concept of Dr. Harley's love bank, then yes she is absolutely killing my love for her by every action and inaction. That is beyond question based on his premise. She is continually withdrawing from the bank and not depositing so yes she is either intentionally or unintentionally killing my love for her.

Unfortunatly for her, if that is her goal, she is trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. She might eventually do it but it will be exhausting work.

Your projected attitude for Gemela is reinforcing because it is my "best guess" as to what she is doing. Either I am right or you are taking advantage of my inexperience but either way it reinforces my opinion. It is unfortunate that her fear of my response might end up being the very thing that provokes what she is trying to avoid. You said eggshells - I said mine field. That may seem like the same thing but it is not. I have been in mine fields and I have stepped on an egg. The difference is degree. I choose to think of mine field because, in my mind, the consequences are far more serious than breaking an egg. Maybe I am wrong but that is my feeling.

MOre than once Stanley told me that I was emptying his love bank. And that upset me, everytime he said it. I knew I was doing just that, but it still bothered me to hear it from his mouth. But you know....his love bank was so sooooooooooo full from before the Affair, that it never got empty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No, I am not taking advantage of your inexperience, because I am too. I am fairly new at this, compare with other posters here, with thousands of posts and many years here. I just see lots of similarities in her behaviour and mine.

Mine fields, egg shells....hmm...Well, to me, egg shells broken all over the place ,is a big task..the clean up,etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> So,thats why I compare it to egg shells.

By the way, you did not tell me about the song you want so much!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I can find no evidence that OM is calling here.


Unfortunately some WW and OM become more astute in their game of deception after d-day. It is not that WW is a horrendous person, but, if she is still foggy--------it will be “the end justifies the means” once again.

As I said-------it is VERY HARD to go cold turkey. Ideally, the WW should work this out with the BH. There was a case here in MB where the BH actually allowed the WW to meet OM in person in the living room of their home while he waited patiently in the kitchen. All of this so WW could dump OM with the so-called closure.

BTW, I need to clarify something about those intense love feelings during the affair that generate all the deceitful behavior. They are so intense that the affair partners behave like drug addicts. As you know-------a drug addict will do anything to get a fix.

One more thing about the intense love feelings. These feelings are built on air. SO soon after d-day and NC the WW should see on her own that the idea of eloping with OM is illogical. Generally many OMs only provide the EN of admiration. Obviously in real life a man must provide many more ENs. So in the end those intense love feelings are illogical.



She could have another secret cell phone hidden away. That is a real possibility but finding it would be almost impossible and a major LB.

I disagree! Many WW will make the BH believe that it is an LB to question contact. They will say you are love busting even while they talk to OM on the side.

Talking to OM is deadly because it causes the WW to go into perennial withdrawal. I would do whatever it takes to ensure NC.

Gemela will complain and say you are treating her like a prisoner and that she has no freedom. However, Gemela needs to understand that if she avoids working in the marriage she runs the risk that you will fall out of love with her.

Lets face it------infidelity is the mother of all love busters. You are not going to be motivated to fix the marriage forever. In this regard------I can say that Myrta was very motivated to fix the marriage.

The reason is that WW will do anything and everything to keep from making me mad. That is because she believes that, if I get mad, I may make her leave (IMO).

Sounds like Myrta. And you want to know something? During this time OM was talking to Myrta and telling her that I was planning to divorce her and that she should go with him. DO you know how smooth these OMs are? THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN WORK IN THE MARRIAGE WITH CONTACT.


Falling out of love with WW is a real risk and the longer she keeps the A going, the greater the risk becomes.

Does Gemela know this? She is taking a major risk.

Difference is if you break an egg shell, you can always clean up the egg shells. If you set off the mine, well....

On the other hand, some mines can't be set off by us. I was in one place and a Kuwaiti engineer was showing me he had found an anti-tank mine. It was BIG. I said "hey, cool mine but I think I'll just get going now". He said "you can't set this off" and proceeded to hit the top of the mine as hard as he could - repeatedly. He was right. There wasn't any need to be afraid of that mine (as long as you are not in a tank of course).

And for any newly found BS I want to say something. My first spin on Plan A was that I had to tread very carefully. There is only one right way and a million wrong ways. That was a wrong assumption. There is no one right way. The only wrong thing you can do is be indecisive. It is not wrong to take no action. As I have said clearly before, no action and inaction are no where near the same thing. Inaction is deadly to the R and M. No action is often required and is the hardest thing (for me) to do. Knowing when to take no action is a trial and error process full of adventure.

I wish I knew why I want that song so much. It is complicated but, if I can get it, it would make me very happy and be very distracting for a while. I am that way with music. Don't know why.

So Stan-ley,

Do I turn the house upside down? I am capable.

Do I turn the house upside down? I am capable.

I asked and I asked. Eventually Myrta told me. I would not take no for an answer.