I know the standard party line on exposure. For those not familiar with my tale, the PA is broken up by distance but EA continues off and on. I am guessing mostly on but I don't know. I have stopped checking on WW entirely. What I do know is that WW will make commitment neither to R nor to the M. FIL has never been told although WW told MIL herself. She is afraid of FIL knowing. My nagging doubt is - should I tell FIL about the A? I don't really care if that gets WW mad and causes her to leave so there is no real downside for me. Any movement at all on part of WW is better than this stagnation I find myself in.

I don't know if telling FIL would cause her to reconsider the EA or not or if she is simply too far gone to be affected by anything any more.

I love her and am still trying for R but I can't do it alone. What do I do? Do I just keep waiting or do I try to get her to make the decision one way or the other?

WAT and Mortarman both told me scorched earth. Expose to anyone who can positively affect your marriage. Who can negatively affect the A.

Just passing on info.

BTW - exposure works very well . I know.

Does FIL have a heart condition?

L.

Healthy as the proverbial horse.

Traicionade, since FIL doesn't have any health issues, I think you should expose to him. As foundareason has said, expose to anyone who can positively affect your marriage and negatively affect the A.

Officially, as long as the affair continues, expose far and wide. That includes Emotional Affairs, as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, your W is posting and although her heart may not seem to be into it, she is apparently taking steps in the right direction, right?

Also, examine your motives... if any part of you feels like you might be exposing out of anger and frustration, then don't do it until your head is perfectly clear.

Also, how is your Gem's relationship with her Dad? That would probably be the biggest factor in my book...

BTW... you said you swore on the Bible... are you a Christian?

(and no, I'm not trying to find a loophole for ya)

That last post reads like a rapid fire somethingorother. Geez, sorry about that.

I got fed up with my writing and edited out all the cra... er... extra stuff. Probably shouldn'ta done that.

I think you are getting ahead of yourself and impatient. I also think you are reading your wife's posts. Are you?

No. I swear on all that is Holy that I am not reading my WW posts and I will explain why:

1) I swore on a Santa Biblia right in front of WW. I can't go back on that. (Oh and dewt, yes I am Christian even though I live in a God-forsaken land. Don't EVEN ask me of my opinion of Qibba.)

2) WW is isolated and getting advice from the wrong people. I honestly believe she is better off trying to get help here from people who can understand exactly what she is going through. In reading enough of the FWW posts, I can see that she is not unique and may be quite typical. I think she needs people who can help her understand herself.

3) If WW thought I were reading her posts, either she would stop posting or she would let that influence what she posts. Either way, she would not be getting the help she really needs.

4) If she is not telling the truth (i.e. she does not really understand the truth) because, according to SAA, she has rewritten history and is like the addict, I don't want to get caught up in the confusion of her lies. I don't want to go chasing white rabbits.

5) If you consider what I have been telling adrianc for a very long time, I am just trying to follow my own advice. I have the paranoia beast under control and wish to keep it that way. I think I am doing us both a favor by trying to just be me.

6) I can go either way on this deal. She is free to go at any time. I am not going to compromise myself to try to influence her.

I don't want WW to even think she is sending me messages through her posts. I told her very clearly that, if there is anything she wants me to know, I want to hear it directly from her. I have me blocked from her posts. Obviously I know how to defeat that. Simply logging out. I am not going to. If she does decide to separate and leaves, then I will go back and read those posts just to try to help me understand a little better.

FIL is a hard guy to get hold of. He calls here occasionally. Every time I pick up the phone and hear his voice, I am so tempted to just blurt it all out. My post stems from what Bigger said a few days ago about how it was time to get off center. He said we were getting stagnant and it was dangerous and that I needed to do something to try to get WW to commit to R. At least dewt is aware of my tragic IC appointment two days ago. Since that time, life has been really hard on me and, to be honest, I think adrianc is dragging me down. That is not his fault. I just really feel for the poor guy.

Almost forgot, I do check to see that WW does post but not what is said because our deal is one post per day at the least. She did not post yesterday because it was a day full of activities.

Your appointment was awful - but it happens. I think I would go see a regular physician and get some anti-D's.

Your wife is very early in this. The OM is for all intents and purposes out of the picture. She is having trouble letting go of the fantasy, as do all WS's.

I would wait on telling your FIL. And that is only because it would be so devastating, and the affair is OVER. You are just witnessing it's death throes.

believer,

I have no clue who you really are but if you told me to walk blindfolded across a NYC street at rush hour being guided only by your directions, I would do it without hesitation. I will say nothing to FIL.

I am, however, not sure I want AD's. I thought I wanted that but now have my doubts. The only serious problem that has me concerned is my inability to concentrate. I can handle all the other issues but I have to be able to do my job. If I find that I can't, I will go for AD.

traicionado,

Since there may be folks reading this thread not familiar with your sitch, shouldn't you disclose the impact of exposing to FIL given the culture your WW comes from? It may change the answers you are receiving.

traicionado,

The busted IC appointment was unfortunate. No more and no less. Move on.

You need to stay away from adrianc for a while. I challenged him to find threads in which he can give advice which will help his own situation. It will give him a badly needed perspective. You cannot save him without effort on his part.

You must continue to manage Plan A. There is no other choice. You know that I am on record disagreeing with the advice you received that put you on this current path. Just calm down and scale back your analysis for a few days. Live life and let things be. See if the world impossibly continues to spin.

Traic, is Gemela reading? I'm doing my best. Myrta an FWW who doesn't post much anymore is Spanish. She could REALLY help. I don't think I have her e-mail any more but perhaps you could do a call out.

Myrta posted yesterday on CV's thread over on the Recovery Forum. Her husband Stanley is also there. tt

KiwiJ,

I think Gemela is reading. I am not quite as bad as dewt with the whip behind soulloss' back but we have a deal that she posts at least once a day. My guess is that she does it reluctantly at the moment. Hopefully that will change. You will be a better judge of that than me. For all I know she just writes "bump".

One big problem we have is the time zone. I have told her there are better times of the day to post than others. I think if she does become interested, she will begin to realize that and find better times to post. For now, I can only ask that you be patient and not give up on her (or us).

Posting in Spanish might help her somewhat but I think it is also a pretext for finding excuses not to post. She can struggle through in English if she makes up her mind to do it and, in English, she will have a much larger support group. For now, all I am asking her to do is post and I have not asked anything else. If she decides to run off with OM, she will need to learn English very quickly so posting in English will be good practice in case that happens.

Right now I am not sure she wants help because I think she believes there is nothing wrong with her. In her mind, the problem is everything and everybody except her. At least she is posting. It is something anyway. We'll see where it all goes.

ToddAC,

believer is familiar and told me not to disclose so I need no further advice. I am going to spend the rest of the day on SI. At least there you can curse all you want and the language police don't filter it out. I discovered that the MB "bad word" filter doesn't speak Spanish. That is a useful tidbit. Unfortunately the home PC is set to Arabic default so I can't put in the accent marks which limits my option of bad words. I'll go see you on SI only I am guessing it must be about 3:30 AM for you at the moment so - oh, hang on a tick, you're still up! Go get some sleep dude!

ToddAC has a nasty headache dude. Keeping me awake. I will talk to you later. Stay calm.

Is it ToddAC that has the nasty headache or his evil twin, ToddC?

It's one headache shared by both. You will hear more from ToddC. You threw an apple at me. It will be thrown back. After the headache clears.

Traic, I've put a call out to Myrta.

I know you think it's best if Gemela talks in English but I really, really think a Spanish speaking FWW could be a lot of help.

Also Myrta is feisty as all get out and doesn't take any crap from anyone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks KiwiJ. I have a deal with WW that she post at least once a day. If she stops doing that, I will get dewt to DHL me his whip. I think she will. She does not seem to mind. I do appreciate the help. She needs to make a decision on way or the other.

Please do me a favor and if the consensus becomes that WW and I are not doing each other any good and should split, send me a post.

Hey, we've got the Spanish going on, all over the place. I was very surprised by the number of people who can write in it.

By the way, are you picthcing in and helping your daughters with their homework?

I had been helping DD1 with homework. DD2 is in preschool and has no homework. DD1 gets home at 3:30 PM. I get home between 4:15 and 4:30 PM. At the moment, we have activities every single day for DD1 at either 4:00 (gymnastics) 4:30 (swimming) 5:00 (soccer). On all days except soccer, there is not time for me to do it. On soccer days, there is time but when I get home, DD1 is already out playing with her friends and does not want to come in and do homework. We had tried doing homework after activities and before bed but DD1 is absolutely impossible by that time. She is too tired to have any concentration. The best time to do homework (her teacher told us both this in PTA conference) is as soon after school as possible before she gets distracted by anything else.

I never don't help with homework. At the moment, it just isn't practical on most days. If it is not done by the time I get home, DD1 and I do it together. Sometimes we split and I do the math and WW watches the reading if I have to get ready to go to soccer, for example. Usually I do it all when there is time. I also have DD1 read from her library books to me and WW does that too. Reading seems to be the area where DD1 needs the most practice. WW is concerned that her English is not good enough to always get the reading right. I tend to agree. It is much better that I help with that.

A short while ago I was doing the homework every single day. Now I do almost none of it. That is not because I don't want to. It is just because the schedule won't allow it. WW has never complained that this was a problem. She is primarily responsible for getting DD1 into all the extracurricular activities. She wants to start piano lessons for DD1 as well. How do we schedule this all in?

Hmmm. I think I would try asking the older daughter if she has homework, helping with the girls, and making plans for the weekend.

And being fun, and laughing more. That should be challenging, considering what you are going through.

Part of the problem is me. Part of the problem is what WW wants to perceive me to be. She continues to maintain a very negative view of me because it supports her fantasy. To be honest, I am not sure it is a battle that can be won. She wants to continue to see me as the bad person solely responsible for her unhappiness. To see me as anything else adds to her confusion and creates doubt about the affair.

On the other hand, it is tough for me to be happy all the time when I know what she is doing although I would get at least a B for effort. All I have asked her to do is make a decision one way or the other. We just had that conversation again a few minutes ago based on advice from someone. I told her if she is willing to leave the OM behind and make an effort, she will get everything I have. On the other hand, as long as she keeps the A alive and the OM in contact, there is no point in me giving any effort - in fact, it might be better if she just make the decision to leave and seek her happiness where she knows she will find it. I will support either choice but she needs to get off the fence and go one way or the other. Neither one of us will ever be happy in this stagnation we are in at the moment.

Right now she is like the rope in a tug-of-war. The OM on one side and family on the other and she moves a little this way and a little that way but doesn't really get much of any place. She is going to have to let go of one side or the other.

Traicionado:

This indecision may take months or even years (if she keeps contact with OM).

I would do the following:

Tell her you cannot wait for her forever and that you will be happy to send her on her way. Or better--------call OM in front of her and ask him to come pick her up. Right now she is in la-la land and needs a dose of reality.

However, be prepared to lose if she moves on. The OM is even younger than her and you as the older guy may be at a disadvantage. However, if she decides to go you will live through short pain rather than long protracted pain.

You are still very early in this. She is completely thinking about a fantasy. I don't think this will go on much longer. I feel sorry for her. She needs to get some friends. I'm sure she is lonely and vulnerable.

Stan-ley,

Have already done both of those things. If she wants to leave, I will help her pack her bags. I don't care any more what her decision is as long as she makes one.

If she stays, it will be a lot of work, a lot of pain and a lot of time to get through this. Happy to sing up.

If she goes, I can begin to heal. Either way I come out okay.

Now we have just had what may be a major misunderstanding. I told her I think she still calls OM. She tells me she hasn't spoken to him in three weeks. We just had a small argument about that. Now she says the last time she spoke to OM was the NC call we made together. That was 5 1/2 weeks ago. She says she just got her math wrong. I said I can't read her mind. What her words said was she had a phone call with him at least 2 1/2 weeks AFTER the NC call. What am I supposed to think? I took 13 hours of calculus, differential equations and partial differential equations. I can subtract 3 from 5 1/2. My beliefs are based on what she is saying. I have enough confusion without her adding to it.

I just got off the phone with WW and apologized but tried to explain how much of an effect her 2 1/2 week calculation error had on me and my beliefs about what she was doing.

I asked if she would keep posting on MB and said she now had two threads because someone else wrote to her. She said she will post on MB if she is upset or unhappy but, if things are going well, she sees no need to post. Somebody might want to encourage her to keep posting regardless. Just an idea.

believer,

She has opportunities to make friends but chooses not to IMO. She creates the lonliness and then wallows in it. I see that we were invited to a Mardi Gras party by one of her friends. She never mentioned one word to me about it so I assume we are not going. She was told about the party in person, invited to the party by email, reminded of the party by email and did nothing about it. Never said anything to me.

In December we were invited to a "net ball" party by another friend of hers. Again she never mentioned it to me. When I asked her about it, she told me she had assumed I would not want to go so she declined on my behalf. We had gone to a net ball party the month before and I had told WW what a great time I had. I had to mention this the next day because she got so snockered she couldn't remember most of the night.

I agree that WW needs friends. There are plenty of women here. She always finds a pretext for not seeking them out. They are too old. They have children different ages, they don't have children, they are Latin and I don't like to be around other Latin women because they are such plaetistas (her words - not mine).

WW and I go to soccer. We take chairs. She won't sit with the other moms. She chooses to sit all by herself.

WW is in mourning for OM I guess. I don't know. She doesn't look ready to me to continue on with her life. She is such an outgoing person and makes friends easily. She just won't.

believer,

One more thing to occupy your mind: yes there was a time a few years ago when I spent way too much time on the PC working on our website. Since coming to Saudi I have cut way way back and, IMO have spent very little time. Lately I have spent even less because I have given up any and all programming projects. The question that now comes to my mind is this - is WW upset that I spend time on the PC or is she upset that I spend time on the PC now knowing that I am discussing the A? Which one is really bothering her? I don't know the answer.

Traicionado,

I am one of those trying to help gemela.

I won't comment about her thread but I thinkyou have to try to convince yourself to take things a little slower. If it helps set a deadline. Give your marriage a month, 3 or 6 whatever you think YOU can stand. Dr Harley says that men can do 6 months of plan A, more than women usually can. Once you have that date in mind, just do your best plan A knowing that it will end.

I am like you and want to resolve things immediately. Fortunately I had to wait 2 months to kick WH out because of my dds, I found MB and plan Ad for that time. I was able to do it because I knew it would end. and it did. I am now in plan B (14 months of it).

I also did not want to take ADs. My concentration was shot. I got my dream job and I couldn't enjoy it! Most of the daily stuff I was managing OK, not great but OK. After one year I went to a psychiatrist and got ADs. One of the main effects of taking them was starting to enjoy my job! I also stopped crying, am less anxious and nervous.

I think you have to calm down, take ADs, set a date for ending plan A, and let gemela know that she will have to make a decision by then because you cannot take anymore and you have to be there for your daughters.

Dr. Harley says that you shouldn't continue plan A when you can't really do it because you do more harm than good. After all it is trying to be the best person you can and if you're not being that, there is no plan A.

Just yesterday he said there was plan A and plan B and NO OTHER PLANS. at least that's his philosophy.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks. I don't want to know about gemela's thread. From my POV it could just as easily be disinformation as information and is therefore useless.

We had a major problem about the mathematics. Whether she is still in contact or not I don't know but, based on what she has recently told me, I believe(d) she is(was) still calling. She told me she had not had contact in three weeks. Insists on it, in fact. The "NC call" was 5 1/2 weeks ago. I logically concluded she was still in contact somehow. We disagreed about that this AM. She now says it was a bad estimate on her part and that what she really meant was she has not called in 5 1/2 weeks. I explained to her that her math error caused me to draw a very wrong conclusion. I think this, above all else, has mitigated my patience. If it was a math error on her part, it was an unfortunate one.

We also had a deal that she would make a decision by end of February. It is now March and not a word. This AM she assured me that it is her decision to stay and that she will put forth effort.

This is what she has said so, apart from the obvious trust issues I have with a cheating spouse, I will have to take it at face value. If it does turn out that she is still in contact and she has not yet made up her mind and I later discover that, it will just diminish further what remaining credibility she has and will probably be her one-way ticket to OM.

At this point, dishonesty helps nothing.

Whether we stay or split, I am glad she is getting good help. I believe OM has been very dishonest with her. I even have a bit of that documented. The HPV alone makes me wonder just how honorable he could really be. I have proof he lied to her from the beginning but WW cannot accept that. Even if our M fails, this particular OM will be the death of all that she knows and believes in. I think she could do far better.

****If she stays, it will be a lot of work, a lot of pain and a lot of time to get through this. Happy to sing up.

If she goes, I can begin to heal. Either way I come out okay.****


The greater source of pain for the BS is the uncertainty and the internal debates of leaving versus staying.

OTOH, finality (WW leaves or she decides to work on marriage 100%) is easier to accept and the pain will be of shorter duration. You must also mourn the loss of the marriage parts that are now dead. Do this now rather than later so you do not become chronically depressed and resentful.


***I told her I think she still calls OM. She tells me she hasn't spoken to him in three weeks.

If she is a typical WW I am almost 100% certain she is still in touch. Like an addict she will lie about it. Install key-logger and put a hidden voice activated recorder on the home phone. IF she has a cell phone make sure you review the calls on the bill or online.


***I believe OM has been very dishonest with her. I even have a bit of that documented. The HPV alone makes me wonder just how honorable he could really be. I have proof he lied to her from the beginning but WW cannot accept that.

By nature all OMs are liars, however, WWs rationalize these things very well. She probably thinks OM lies to everyone, but her------she is special. DO NOT DENIGRATE OM IN FRONT OF HER. This is a major love buster. Do not even acknowledge the existence of OM.

IF OM is military I would report this to your CO.

***There are plenty of women here. She always finds a pretext for not seeking them out. They are too old. They have children different ages, they don't have children, they are Latin and I don't like to be around other Latin women because they are such plaetistas (her words - not mine).

She probably has low self-esteem. Women like that are easy prey for a seasoned OM.

***I asked if she would keep posting on MB and said she now had two threads because someone else wrote to her. She said she will post on MB if she is upset or unhappy but, if things are going well, she sees no need to post. Somebody might want to encourage her to keep posting regardless. Just an idea.

IF you briefly post her email my wife will be happy to write her. Maybe she needs to vent privately to a FWW who may be more empathetic to her situation.

Give her affair literature. She needs to understand that most affairs die and no one wins. I suspect she got her name “Gemela” from the “almas gemelas” saying (the soul-mate equivalent in English).

BTW, if you document she is breaking NC put her on a plane and send her to the OM-------do not hesitate.

Post deleted by gemela

I will ask my wife to write.

Sorry about the gemela post. I keep the home PC logged on as her so she can get in without any effort. I was in a hurry and forgot to log in as me. That is still:


email deleted------------------

For anyone looking for gemela, I doubt she will post tonight. She told me today she only feels like posting when she is in a bad mood and she is in a good mood tonight. Please don't give up on her. She needs your help just as much as we need your help, if not more.

Thanks for letting us know she's not posting. we will keep the thread on the first page hoping she will read

Glad you are trying to hang in there.

So I will assume that when we don't hear from your wife, things are going well.

I can empathize with her about not wanting to make friends or do things. She may be depressed. When my children were very young, I lived a long way from my family and friends. I'm a very outgoing person, but got very withdrawn. It was awful.

Gemela, you and your children are in my prayers.

Please be patient with gemela. Yesterday morning we had another version of the BT (Bigger Talk) as I had been urged to do. I promise you the issue of 3 versus 5 1/2 weeks confused me. As much as WW is in love with OM, I would think she would know down to the minute haw long it has been since she talked to OM. It is hard to believe she only has a general idea. Anyway, she said she hasn't so I have to assume she is telling the truth.

I wasn't going to mention this but thought about it some more and realized it might be important. I got home yesterday (soccer night at 5:00) and was sitting down to lupper at about 4:25 and DD's were coming in from playing to eat too. We all finished eating and DD1 jumped up to run outside and play (we needed to leave for soccer almost right now) and I decided to go ahead and ask if she had done homework. She said no and ran for the door. I said "GET BACK HERE". "Do your homework". She said no and WW said to me "SEE?". I told DD1 to get her homework and get started which she did. So now I get the idea that it is not so much that WW doesn't like to do the homework. I see the same problem at bath time, bed time and any other time. DD's don't pay attention to what WW says to do. If I am in the house and she wants to get the girls to mind, she always yells my name out. She doesn't really want me to come but that is how she gets the DD's to mind. Now I mention this because I think this is one of the things that really bothers WW - she doesn't have the ability to get DD's to mind her. Now, before you get the wrong idea, I have never ever hit, spanked, slapped or DD's. On the other hand WW screams at them and hits them with shoes (that is a Mexican thing and is pretty much normal there so don't look at it from a USA perspective). DD's run the risk of physical punishment from WW and not from me but they won't cross me for anything. Explain that one to me because I don't get it. Oh, yes I did swat DD1 on the behind for the first time two weeks ago because she had kicked a neighbor girl in the stomach. Neighbor mom called to ask about it and I was walking DD1 across the street to talk about it with neighbor. DD1 refused to go and would not move. When I tried to pick her up, she kicked me multiple times in legs and stomach so I did swat her but not hard. Anyway, now I can't say I never ever swatted her.

As for me, I don't know if WW is still in contact or not. If I had to bet, I would say she is doing it somehow. I made the decision about 5 weeks ago to do my very best to not catch her at that because people here said the A would die eventually. If I do catch her, it is because she wants me to catch her.

Stan-ley said that Plan A should be about 6 months - from what date? Where does the clock start? For me, having a date in mind is good. I won't repeat the running analogy I put on adrianc's thread but it exactly fits my mindset. On the other hand there is believer who says be patient.

I think the advice to calm down is the best. WW did say yesterday she is staying for DD's. Can't leave them. They need her. She said she is going to make effort. She said all the right things. I don't know if they are true or not but I can't just assume it is a lie so time will tell.

Traicionado,
take it one day at a time. I know it's hard, I've been there only my WH spent ALL DAY with OW and the weekends he went off with her too! I guess I was too numb to even react.
At least gemela seems to be considering the situation.

Hopefully she will read her threads. she hasn't said much yet, and hasn't exaactly answered the posts . so let's wait and see what happens.

I hope someone can explain your daughters behaviour. My experience is that children will respond to CONISTENT behaviour. So maybe Gemela hasn't been consistent and they instinctively realize that they can get away with not minding her. I guess it's discipline. Hopefully someone will come along and explain it better.

I think consistency has been a problem from the beginning and I always stressed that with WW. She tells them to do something and they don't. Sometimes she just ignores it, sometimes it escalates. Other times she gets so mad that it escalates terribly out of control. I have always taken a different approach but all I have to do is look crosswise at DD's and they obey. It is funny that they are more afraid of me and yet every so often one or the other will come and ask me why Mommy hits them and I don't. They usually ask that after they have been hit. WW sometimes treats DD's like children and sometimes like sisters. When they fight, it is more like sisters.

I think DDs know where you are inside yourself. If I tell my DDs to do something and I am already upset, they will react to that. If you talk calm but with authority, they react to that also. I am sure Gemela knows that also, it is almost instinctive.
But if you are upset, you talk to DDs in a way that they will be upset also and not obey, so you "prove" your point that they don't listen to you.
As you know, I am no expert, but I think is all part of the situation.

traicionado,

I know how you feel about the consistency issue. I have always had the same concern about my WW's lack of consistency with our three sons. Guess what? WW's love for them and their love for her pervaded all the issues I was concerned about. Guess who supplied the consistency? Everything will be fine. Kids know when something is amiss, even if they are too young to fathom why. They have more resilency that you and I combined.

WW will see the error of her ways. Then you can move on to a different challenge. It will not be any easier, but you will do what you have to do because that is the kind of person you are.

Given that the BT has not been productive or positive or fruitful, when are you going to stop? Please stop!!!

Remember my simpleton defintion of insanity? Repeating the same behavior and expecting a different outcome.

Ease off the accelerator. Trim the RPM’s. Your mind is running way too fast. Settle back into a long-term approach. Do not worry about day-to-day gyrations.

You and BT have me caught in the middle. Maybe the BT was a mistake or, at least, ill-timed but I can see that, once started, it needed resolution so the B of BT was right about that. The last installment of the BT plan seemed to turn out quite well and therefore seems to have killed the issue entirely. WW did say that it was her decision to stay and "ponerse ganas al matrimonio". I think now she needs time and a period of NC. If I could guarantee NC, I would have the patience of Job. The NC is the only problem at the moment. The phone calls don't bother me all that much but I know they rip her apart. I want her to stop the calls so she can heal and begin to get her life back together. I can tell when she is calling because it affects her mood so much. She can't hide the emotion.

Even so, I think that we are in a renewed state of nothingness. As such, for the longest time, nothing will happen and then, suddenly and without any warning....

That is where I think we are at the moment. Love it or hate it, the BT happened and has come to conclusion. BT is over for the moment.

I still say hang in there and be patient. How long do you think the OM is going to wait? My guess is that he has a long history of seducing mother's of his clients. He will very likely move on to the next one.

Waiting and waiting patiently are two different things. You say wait. ToddAC says wait patiently. I like your advice better than his. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think the fact that WW has said the "right words" has helped. She is taking AD. She promises to return to IC. She is being much more like a "real wife". For all appearances she is doing all the right things. I think WW is taking a lot of positive steps.

WW also seems to recognize exactly what she risks losing if she goes with OM. If all they do is sob and whisper ILY's on the phone, well, that is just pathetically sad and makes me feel sorry for both of them.

I am firmly entrenched in Plan A and I want to make sure DD's are as protected as possible. I spoke to WW last week and she agreed we might send DD1 to counseling later on just to be safe.

Yes I will wait. Right now "nothing" seems to insist on continuing to happen...

I hope she will keep posting. Myrta was a WW, and we ALL had a hard time with her. But she hung in there and has a recovered marriage. Stan-ley is her husband. Oh, and she speaks Spanish too.

Hang in there. I know how hard it is, but I don't see your wife leaving for the OM.

When she gets firmly into recovery, she won't be able to believe that she took a chance of losing everything.

Yesterday started off badly with the final installment of the infamous BT plan but it got very much better and ended with her going to sleep in my arms.

I don't want to twist her arm to post but I will do my very best.

I just had a thought. I am wondering about potential cures for WS syndrome. Does anybody have any idea what Dr. Harley's views are on leeches and blood-letting? I hear that used to work for many diseases some time ago. Didn't know if any clinical work had ever been done with WS's.

traicionado,

I am an impatient person, but I'm not dumb. I'm an MD although I don't see patients. Most illnesses have a "natural history" meaning that they have certain clinical features AND they have a timeline. For flu it is 3 days, for hepatitis it is 1 month. There is always a give or take period around that.

For emotional relationships it seems to be 2 years. It's not in the books, I searched. But Dr. Harley's experience makes him say 2 years for all relationship problems. He recommends dating for 2 years before getting married, he says affairs end in 2 years, etc.

For psychiatrists "normal" grieving should last 1 year. Even grieving for your marriage. Knowing that, when I realized I was still too emotional about WH and his A after one year of separation I went to a psychiatrist to get ADs. To help me get through the next year necessary to complete a relationship's timeline.
I am trying to be consistent with the advice I give people who come and say "I have the flu" what can I do to make it go away?" I tell them, nothing. In three days it will go away. Use whatever you can to feel better in the meantime.

Same thing I'm doing. Waiting 2 years and using whatever I need to feel better in the meantime. In 2 years I should be over WH because it will have been 2 years with no relationship.

It doesn't HAVE to be 2 years, it can be less.

And for all adictions, according to Dr. Harley, the worst withdrawal takes 3 weeks. So if Gemela is not in contact, in about 3 weeks she should start to feel better.

Hope this helps. You are doing fine.

I know you are not dumb but I think maybe you are saying I am dumb but I am not smart enough to know for sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks. Yes that does help. Now if I can just keep her out of contact...

I am not going to go for AD's right now. I am doing much better surprisingly enough. I know I have to remain consistent and that that is important to gemela as much as anything. If she has doubts about anything, I don't want to be a contributing factor.

I will try to get gemela to at least post something this PM just so you all don't think I have been up to skullduggery or something.

Please just be patient and don't give up on her. I think talking about it with people who can help her see her feelings are not unique will really help. She has tried to talk to people before but mainly in an effort to seek enablers. If she begins to get active on MB, she knows she will not find enablers here so it will be to seek help. Of that, I am sure. I think she is a bit timid yet too. I will get her back.

I don't think you are dumb at all! On the contrary, you are doing so great!!!! even without previous experience <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In a while I'll bump gemela's thread. I don't want them to be too near yours...

PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE?!?!?!?!?

Who in their right mind would go through this TWICE???

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

exactly!

That's what we think now, but acually some people do.Unfortunately.

I don't think I have ever told you to be patient. Maybe I did. Besides, telling you to be patient would be like telling the captain of the Titantic to be careful...

I did encourage you to calm down.

This was somewhat interesting but only for the Spanish speaking. Yesterday WW took the golf cart down to be inspected. After dropping DD2 off at preschool (in the golf cart), she went back and played 9 holes. In Mexican humor there is a lot of double meaning (doble sentido). Years ago she and the other golf wives in Villahermosa (Mexico) were planning a couples tournament for all of us to have a fun golf day out.

[Before I go on, I should mention that Mexican's use a lot of Spanglish terms in golf rather than making up their own words like the French would do. A fivesome, for example, would be a fayson. The green is still the green. Well they use "putt" for putt but the infinitive verb form of "to putt" is puttear.]

Well the woman were all chatting about the tournament (and probably drinking mimosas) and they were trying to decide the format. One woman suggested the men tee-off and hit to the green and the women would "putear", She had meant to say "puttear" but pronounced it wrong. The women just went crazy with laughter and the jokes didn't stop. The woman who had said "putear" got a bit embarrassed I think. Well WW told me about this and it has been a kind of running joke for us for all these years. One or the other has brought it up every once in a while when it was appropriate and it always gives us a good laugh.

Well last night we were talking and I was going back over her golf game a little - just something to talk about. I told her what a shame it was that she started out with a par and ended up so terribly - triple bogey on the last hole. Especially after having had a good drive. Un buen maderazo para salir y tres madrazos hasta al green. She then said "Y QUATRO PUTTS!!!". I immediately said "pero estas puteando demasadio". She said "No, ya no" and started to laugh and then swatted me but in a playful way. Then she told me I was terrible - but still laughed and the conversation continued.

That was a conversation we would not have had a few weeks ago.

Traicionado:

I want to congratulate you for your desire to remain married. As you know in most Latin cultures (regardless of socioeconomic class or level of machismo) we are always taught to kick out the infidel. Staying married is harder, but in the end you will be rewarded. You also show quite a bit of charisma in your posts as well as very little false pride. I could learn a couple of things from you.

I want to emphasize that the centerpiece of your recovery will be hermetic absolute NC. Withdrawal can be very long and protracted with any kind of contact. The latter includes the so-called harmless phone calls, emails, IM, or even the contemplation of old photos and emails. Checking a website where there may be info about OM is another no-no. As I said--------NC must be hermetic.

Once Gemela ends the withdrawal you will have a chance to have a great marriage if you learn how to meet her needs.

Good Luck!!!

False pride? Apparently even my pride has betrayed me. I used to have real pride! My mother always told me I had a lot to be humble about.

If you have any more ideas on what I can do to secure NC, let me know. I have done all I know short of chain WW to the kitchen sink. I am doing everything I know how including some things I am not to happy about.

I personally suspect that contact is happening in some way. Can't prove it but I am just amazed she has hung on as long as she has with no contact. She told me it has been six weeks since last contact once she corrected the math. She told me it had been three prior to my reminding her of the dates. I just can't believe she would have her estimate that far off.

I have my good days and bad days. Today was a really bad day because I had to go offshore so had four hours each way to do nothing but think. That was torture. When I got home, I got home in a bad mood. Partly because I had to walk from the office the 6k. Normally not too bad but I hate doing it in safety boots. To top it off, WW whizzed past me in the golf cart on her way to pick up DD2. I yelled at her to stop and give me a ride but nothing. Guess she didn't hear me. I got home and went upstairs because I was mad and didn't want to be around her while being mad. She suggested we go play golf. Big mistake. 5th hole we picked up and came home. We got in and I told her it had been a rough day and asked her to hold me. She did. I thanked her and told her it helped a lot.

Thankfully I don't have to go offshore any time again in the near future. She seems to be doing better than me for the moment.

Regarding NC:

At this point I trust my wife and I do not monitor anything.

However, there was a time when I was monitoring because I sensed something was wrong. I knew my wife did not want to re-start the affair, but I also knew that most WWs always rationalize breakage of NC to ease their pain and the pain of OM.

In the end hermetic NC is the best measure to lessen the pain, but when “one is in the midst of withdrawal one tends to think a little contact cannot hurt” That is how they think-----------it is human nature.

WW will also think any monitoring is a love buster and OM will use that info to emphasize that the BH is a tyrannical person. Therefore, monitoring has drawbacks.

In any event you may consider the following:

Change the number of all land based phones.

Change number of all cell phones

Ask WW to get a new email. Keeping old email and using blockage of OM’s email does not work. OM will quickly assume another identity. Even if WW states she has no desire to hear from OM she will still check her email with great hope to see if she is receiving a strange email with encoded messages.

Install the key-logger.

Go to Radio Shack and install a kit to record phone calls.

Search the house and cars to make sure OM has not given WW a special cell phone for communication. That is one thing OMs do all the time.

However, I have bad news for you. In the end your wife or anyone can get around all these hurdles and still communicate or even cheat again.

There is also no point in being married to someone you have to supervise in such manner. However, when the WW is foggy and in the throes of withdrawal some supervision may be acceptable.

If you document that she is breaking NC you will have to set some firm boundaries. Many here advocate full exposure, but to me that is a last resort.

I am an avid golfer. It is nice your W plays the game.

I guess you are not entirely familiar with my sitch. I had covered all the things I could early on. I took the call recorder out once it had served its puspose. I have a good enough service now with the CID and phone recorders to know if she is calling - wouldn't know what was said but it would be moot anyway.

OM already did give her a special phone. It is gone. Has he been able to send her another one? Who knows. I did start to look once even. I decided it was just easier to pack her bags and send her on her way - and did pack the bags...

I could install real-time GPS tracking on the car AND the golf cart but she can just as easily get out and go running and find a phone. Her preferred method of contact has been to use prepaid phone cards and use public phones. I could have her followed 24/7 or I could quit my job and do it myself.

No, you said it yourself. That is not a marriage worth having. If I do find that she is breaking NC, she will be on the next BA flight out of here straight to OM. She is extremely well aware of that as well. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she knows the full consequences of that action.

She will not only lose her family, she will lose her mother and her father and even her twin sister. They will all consider her dead. So will I.

I can end this deal at almost any time without much provocation. I love her but am not willing to destroy my life and the lives of DD's for her. I have thrown her a life preserver and I am pulling on the rope but she has to want to get back in the boat. Simple as that.

To be honest I was mad this PM because I tried to call WW to get her to come pick me up so I did not have to walk. I convinced myself she was not at home because she was out calling OM. That was her previous MO. I am tired of this paranoia - I am tired of having to wonder where my dear wife is rather than knowing I can trust her. There are times when I think it would be far easier to just call it quits. If she continues to put forth no effort, some day that will happen.

She wants to pretend that the A never happened. She never wants to discuss anything about us, about the M, nothing. I think she believes that in a few years she will forget all her feelings for OM and may then be okay with the M. I can't read her mind but that is my best guess. The problem is that I can think of far better ways to spend my time.

I haven't hit the golf ball as badly as I did yesterday in 20 years. If it wouldn't have been a LB, I would have told WW to go on and I would have walked home. I wanted to.

Hermetic NC is totally impractical. It is easier to send her to the UK forever.

Oh, and believer, if you ever do happen to read this, yes I did say someone brought up the homework. I didn't say who but WW guessed right. If you are mad, I apologize but you took one for the team. The problem that it created was good and that is why, after nuch thought, I brought up the subject. My point with WW was simple: why is it that we are here face-to-face and yet have to communicate via someone halfway round the world on the internet? Why can't we just talk? It was a very good in that it pointed out a fundamental flaw in WW's current approach.

I also suggest that nobody ever tell me what is on WW's mind. I suggest you convince her to tell me what is on her mind. She is the only one I want to hear those things from. If she can't learn to tell me, this will be a short ride.

I liked the golf story <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

sometimes words can be funny. It took me years to realize that WH's friends "Bola" and "Pito" were actually very funny names when combined and they were always together!

***If I do find that she is breaking NC, she will be on the next BA flight out of here straight to OM.***

That is what I said to my wife. One needs to make firm boundaries.

What did you do with OM's phone? Just curious!

traicionado,

You've obviously got your armor on and an amount of anger bottled up. I can see it peeking through sometimes in your posts. I was the same way at one point. You need to keep that in, get an IC if you need to vent (or this forum).

Your wife also sounds a lot like mine, hispanic and somewhat isolated (even if by choice). She needs you to be her friend and protector. When she's down and low, care for her and ask how you can make her feel better. When she's feeling good, enjoy activities that she enjoys. Does she have hobbies. For example, I learned to knit so that I could spend more time with my wife(knitting together). Talk about things that make her eyes light up, think about it, you know what she likes (hobbies, her family, old memories).

Does she like to cook Mexican food, or do you guys go out for dinner often? Learn to make a Mexican dish and suprise her one evening. There are things we do when we date a person that eventually drop off as we grow used to each other. You need to try to pick these things back up and maintain. You'll find it's enjoyable for both of you.

Most hispanic cultures place a strong importance on family and staying together (especially the wife, but don't get me started). She needs to see you involved in the family. Do you go to the doctor with her and the kids when they have checkups? Do you bring home new games/toys for the kids once in a while? Do you actually play with the kids (with the new toys) and involve yourself? For many hispanic women (well, for all women essentially) it's very important to see the husband loving and enjoying his family. Do you all sit together and have lunch/dinner as a family? Do you read and chat with your girls when they go to bed? Do you go to bed at the same time as your wife, or are you on the PC when she's falling asleep?

All these things seem basic or even unimportant to some men, but they can be VERY important to a woman. Especially those raised in hispanic cultures.

Whenever she is sad or hurting for the OM, toughen up and visualize yourself as your family's protector. Care for her and show her you love her, even if she's grieving for the other guy. One day she'll be over him and see what real love and care is about.

Good luck.

Good points Sundog. I think most women love for their husbands to be involved with the children. One of the things that made me fall in love with mine was the things he did with my boys.

Sundog,

Yes I would say that I am pretty well down that path and improving. Most hobbies we already share but I did take up swimming laps as something else we could do together although she has now given that up, at least for the "Winter".

We always go to bed together and I spend little or no time on the PC. The last few months, all the time I spent was dedicated to writing programs for DD1's 1st grade. Most of the time (say 95%) I do spend on the PC is between 3:00 AM and 6:00 AM. If WW has a problem with that, well, she could get up and fix me breakfast <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> No. Just kidding. She has never fixed me breakfast unless you count 9:00 AM on a Thursday (weekend). Never ever on a work day. I did last evening because I was really bummed but only while kids were eating their supper.

We always sit together for family meals and I am always the last one from the table. We always go to bed together. The kids' supper is not generally a family meal. Neither WW nor I generally eat supper.

Anyway, I understand everything you have said and have been trying to adhere to that. We don't go out to dinner all the time. We do on occasion. Partly that is because her can't easily get baby-sitting and partly because I admit I am still concerned about being targeted by terrorists. That activity is down at the moment but you just never know for sure.

I go to some doctors' visits with the kids and some I don't. Depends on what it is. I am somewhat limited by how often I can get out of the office, what meetings I have etc. She takes DD's to doctor quite often. It is free here and easy service. I do have to go whenever DD2 has to get a shot. I have to put DD2 in the full body press. She otherwise cannot be given the shot. DD1 loves needles. Couldn't care less.

I know I get mad at times and I avoid WW like the plague when I do. I have a pretty good handle on what my triggers are so stay away from them. One trigger is calling the house during the day when she "should" likely be here but is not. As a result, I never call the house during the day except at lunch when she has to be here for the DD's. Yesterday I called because I had little choice besides walk or else sit and wait 1 1/2 hours.

I will say that I think my anger is pretty much limited to her breaking NC. For that, I don't much care if I get angry because I will send her packing anyway.

Oh, I did at least make an effort at IC and it went very badly. My other options for IC are all with Saudi male counselors. The Saudi teachings on dealing with a disobedient wife almost always involve flogging. That is their solution for everything. I don't really want to flog gemela so am avoiding the Saudi counselors.

That is why I thought of leeching. Seems much more humane <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No seriously, I don't think I posted the "water can" analogy here but put that in a PM instead. Anyway, let's just say that my "IC gone terribly wrong" just about did me in. That is one thing I don't think I could survive one more time.

I don't want to be narrow minded, or bash another country. I understand that the money there is good, and the medical care - well except for the shrinks.......

But going out to dinner and worrying about being a terrorist target???????????? It's almost like having your family with you in prison. How long are you staying?

Sounds like you are doing well.

Have you tried sitting down alone with your wife and asking her what she disliked about your relationship before the affair?

Ask her about now. How does she feel about the man you are currently being at the moment. She will probably tell you that you are doing great, but she is still lacking the spark (in-love feeling). This is normal while she is in withdrawal. After about 3 months my wife was much closer and more affectionate with me.

Believe it or not, your paranoia will subside over time. I used to be obsessed with knowing if my wife was contacting the OM.

Every day she continues NC will get easier. Some days you will slip-up and feel like calling it quits, but those days will get fewer and further apart.

Let me say that I cannot imagine a safer place to raise children. This is like it was back in the small town USA 30 or 40 years ago. We never have to worry about the DD's and they have so many opportunities. I am a target - yes. I am a "valuable" target.

Going out to dinner is complicated in that we have baby sitting problems, normally don't eat at night anyway and, if we do go out, have to plan everything around the two prayer times that happen around that time. Fear does not keep us from going out. I walk the streets of Khobar alone at night when I am looking for hardware, etc. I am honestly more afraid (for DDs' safety) of living in the USA than I am here. Mexico is extremely unsafe. Where would we live? I guess we could go to Canada but - hockey???? Give me a break!

What does your wife say about living there?

The short answer to your question is "no". We have not yet begun to talk about the relationship at all. I have not pressed that either. When we were in MC, the MC was moving toward her version of the EN list. We never got there.

Oh, I tried to run over the phone with the Tahoe. Darn that Nokia was tough. I ended up taking out the SIM card and destroying it and throwing the phone in the trash. I did copy down its memory before I did though. I have used some of those numbers as part of exposure.

She wants to go back to Dubai. I am not sure I can still get a job back in Dubai. In addition, Dubai has changed. The things she wants about Dubai are "marriage avoidance" things. IMO, Dubai would allow her to go back to status quo rather than try to work on and improve the M.

Dubai has become impossible to live in. All our friends who still live there are unhappy. None of them has a happy marriage. IMO, Dubai is part of her fantasy.

We posted at the same time. What does your wife say about living there?

If you get some time, check out Myrta's old posts. She had it all - married to a doctor, nice family, home, etc. She had an affair with some guy that looked like a troll. When she was just coming out of the affair, she was IMPOSSIBLE!!! But you had to love her, she had such spunk. Now she is one of the posters that we count on.

I also think she wants to leave here because she thinks it will make all the problems go away. I have told her we can run all she wants but the real problem is within and we will never escape it - we have to face it.

Did she want to go back there before the affair?

I don't remember her ever having said so but my best guess would be yes. Keep in mind, however, that the A started very soon after we got here by my best calculations.

Saudi has been very good for me in my personal growth. It has allowed me to now focus my time and attention on the family. Low stress (work stress - that is) and zero travel. Before, in Dubai, I was traveling to Yemen, Kuwait and Iraq on a regular basis. Personally I feel safer in Saudi.

IMO, Saudi has forced WW to change her priorities and force her to dedicate herself more toward DDs than her own wants and desires. I truly believe this is the first time she has ever had to face the reality of being a "mother" full-time. Again, that is just my opinion.

BTW, I think you may be from Canada. I hope you are not mad about the "hockey" comment. We Americans really do appreciate you guys taking all our acid rain and stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I live in Southern California, north of San Diego. I work at the Navy Hospital at Camp Pendleton.

To me, the place where you live would be very stressful. The whole thing about women having to cover up, etc would bother me. I have a friend at work who was raised in Saudi, though, and she came out just fine. Her dad worked for an oil company there. She is 27, and a beautiful girl, inside and out, with a great education.

I lived in Oklahoma for 12 years. Always worried about tornadoes. If I lived in California, I would always worry about "the big one". Statistically speaking I have less chance of being killed here than in any average size city in the USA. According to those same statistics, it is also safer to be in Iraq than in Detroit (published by CNN).

WW has to cover up with the abaya to go into the city. Here in the Eastern Province, she does not have to cover her face or hair. The abayas she has are like long thin black bathrobes. The problem she has with covering up is that people don't get to see her clothes. She likes looking nice and wants people to see her and notice her. With the abaya, she feels they don't. I would say that she tries to dress about 10 years younger than her actual age. That may by psychological or it may just be cultural. In Mexico this last Christmas, I noticed women dressed for show. On the other hand, her twin sister dressed much more conservatively than WW does and twin lives in Mexico. Sister has also noticed WW's form of dress and is not entirely in agreement with it.

Sister is very much against the A and WW's way of behaving. Unfortunately her thought process is such that she thinks WW will just snap back to reality and that we should just forget about the whole A process. I have asked her to come here and read and maybe post. I doubt she ever has.

Most women like to look nice and be noticed. That is very normal. I would find covering up very demeaning. But that is just me.

The women I know in Mexico dress very conservatively. The ones closer to the border, or in the states, don't.

An example: married women here (on camp) are supposed to wear one piece bathing suits. WW started that but, by her own words, started seeing the 20 yr old girls coming back on school leave in their bikinis and she began to get into a competition with them (her own words). She went to the pool every day to try to "out do" the girls. She did not get into thongs. I don't think that would fly here but definitely "rio cut". She kept covering less and less. Obviously OM took note as he saw her every day at the pool. I kept reminding her that what she was doing was not appropriate for the environment and it was something we had discussed and agreed to prior to making the decision to come here. This is why I think MLC may have had some bearing.

I don't believe she ever switched over completely from being single/married with no kids to being a mom. Not completely. We have always had a full-time housemaid prior to coming here. The maid took care of all the dirty work and WW got the kids when they were clean, dressed and ready to go. WW may have been a little spoiled. I can't say for sure. She has great maternal instincts. That is the glue that has kept her from running off with OM. She is not always the best mother in that she takes out her frustrations on DDs.

I think WW is going through/needs to go through a paradigm shift in her attitude regardless of whether we stay here or live elsewhere. Saudi has just forced the issue because we no longer have a 5 or 6 bedroom house with servant's quarters to place a maid. Our last house in Dubai was four stories and had its own elevator. I admit I miss that house. If we had a full time made now, we would be stepping all over each other. She also doesn't need it. Her sister in Mexico takes care of a much larger house with no maid.

Personally I think the full time maid is bad for DDs. Even now, they won't pick up after themselves. They say "let the (part time) maid do it". They don't say that to me twice, however.

It sounds like you have taken good care of her - I won't say spoiled her, but close.

I know what you mean about the maid. I had a housekeeper when my boys were young, but only once a week. My sons gave me the same line - "let the maid do it". After that, I made sure to tell our housekeeper that I would pay her the same money, but she could skip the boy's rooms.

Do you want to know how many pairs of shoes WW has? Imelda Marcos look out!!! Do you want to know how many pairs of shoes SIL has? MIL continually harps on this point. SIL is even upset about it. Funny thing is WW is continually finding "new" shoes she forgot she had. I never thought twice about the shoes until SIL insisted that I stop buying WW new shoes. I am not venting here BTW because the shoes don't bother me personally. You can go to the poorest town in any Latin American country and find a minimum of 30 shoes stores (for a population of 5000). The Tres Hermanos are everywhere! Even tiny shops that only sell one unique pair of shoes that may or may not come in your size. I have learned that shoes can never be too big because you can always correct that with 1 or 2 or 7 or 9 "plantillas" for "media plantillas" or combination thereof. Shoes CAN be too small but ONLY if they are more than two sizes too small. Otherwise, pain doesn't matter as long as they look good. Okay, you caught me. Now I am venting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just FYI, I woke WW up this AM and cuddled with her and told her that I was sorry for my little snit yesterday and assured her it was not her fault and she had done nothing to cause it. I apologized.

For anyone looking for gemela, we are going into Khobar tonight with DDs and will not get back till late. I bet she does not post tonight. If she does not, I will try to talk to her about it tomorrow. We do have a "Horse and Hound" show to take DDs to at the riding club. DD1 wants a horse - a white one. I dreamed about that last night. At least I think it was a dream. In my supposed dream, I learned the cost would be about $50,000 for the horse and $50,000 per year for care and feeding. I am not sure of the exact amount because I got confused by the exchange rate. I didn't think it was that much. I also dreamed that OM came back and WW was desperate to see him. He even offered me $500. I refused. I guess I should have asked him for $100,000 - at least I could have bought a horse! I don't think the price is really that high here. My neighbor told me they were thinking about buying a horse. They finally made the decision to do it and were going out the next day to pay the $5,000 for the horse but it had died during the night. Maybe just the unhealthy horses go for such a bargain. I will do more research. Maybe I could compromise and get a horse with just a chronic cough...

I will get gemela back ASAP. She is very busy today and maybe tomorrow. Thursday is the annual running club Pub Crawl which I signed us up for. Consists of 5 mile run with "adult" water holes along the route. There is no observed winner of the event. We do get a T-shirt though so we will have been there, done that AND gotten the T-shirt. I don't know how she will be for posting afterward and my "24 hour rule" will go into effect.

If there is a problem, I will let gemela fans know.

Early this morning I mentioned the "water can" analogy. I am cutting and pasting here for completeness as a thought process a BS can (did) go through awaiting IC. I hope others may be able to relate.

When reading this, just pretend that "yesterday" was my IC gone horrible wrong. here goes:

---------------------------------------------

One of my common running tracks here is 5.5K around a desert waste area. There is a water can at exactly the 3K mark and no hope in between. In the summer, when it is 50 or 55 degrees C and you run that and all you can think is "do I have enough to get to the water?", you suck it up and force yourself to go that extra. You can't lie down because you would get 2nd degree burns. You think – "if I can just get to the water". You force yourself. You can't even make yourself look at the can because it seems too far away. You look down pretending that the next step will bring you there. Then, when you finally get there, you find out it is empty. That is the best analogy I can think of to describe how I felt yesterday. I hoped it would be better before I got home but I couldn't shake it. I had no real expectations about IC. I just wanted help, or so I thought...

---------------------------------------------

Anyway, that is my "water can" analogy. I don't think about it too much any more but I am reluctant to want to consider IC here again anyway. If a Harvard-trained psychiatrist doesn't know enough to respect a session, what can I expect from someone "less qualified"?

I believe good IC can help any BS and I would encourage anyone in that position to seek it out. We BS's have a lot of pretty active demons. We can either exercise them or exorcise them but they are not going to sit back quietly. I hope that WW will go back to IC and that eventually we will get back to MC. I am awaiting the MC to tell me that it is appropriate. If MC tells me to go for IC, I'll do it. It will either be that or she will tell me to eat Thai food at the Blue Elephant. Hmm, come to think of it, I believe I will pick up some sweet chili sauce at the market tonight. Maybe I have been overlooking something...

Thanks for letting us know that gemela won't be around and that she's busy. You'll have to make sure she knows how to find her threads in case they are far back. I won't bump them because I'd have to use my imagination! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> it won't accept "bump" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Just make sure she doesn't get away with pretending that nothing happened. You yourself said that that's what she wants to do, and I believe it's true. If she doesn't face up to what she did, I don't think you'll ever recover... nor will she be happy.

But she might need time to think.

I don't think she is particularly interested in MB.Yet.

The fact that she has posted more than once is amazing. I'll keep at it although gently. I can't force her to think something. If she chooses to believe that we can ignore this and it will go away, I agree with you. She might be able to get over it that way but I'll choose to walk.

We got back from Khobar. I can't believe it. WW now has yet another pair of shoes. She is up to 61. I swore "anything but that". What is wrong with me? I made her a deal. She could get the new shoes as long as she left the old ones in the store (she said they were worn on the heels). She agreed. But then DD1 saw the shoes and started crying and said she wanted them because she would wear them when she was grown up. They came home with us.

I am going to see if I can get gemela to put her threads in her "favorite topics" and access them that way. Other option is to put them in IE favorites. One way or the other I'll make them accessible so that doesn't become the excuse.

I sense Gemela has some vanity with regards to shoes and the idea that she dresses 10 years younger. Your comment regarding the swimsuits and the fact that she would like to show off her figure in Saudi tells me she may be an admiration junkie. Admiration is a very common emotional need for many men and women. In fact quite often OM zooms into this need. I encourage you to pay attention to this EN, as this may be very rewarding to you and the marriage.

Do not forget that having an affair with a younger man while she was married to someone older was another way to fill her need for admiration.

BTW, you remind me of Larry178 who like seems to be getting over the affair quite fast. You may want to post to him since you are both married to younger women. I believe he has a few pearls he can pass along.

Are you suggesting I buy more shoes?

I have always done my best to praise her on her appearance, etc. I have never ever done what I see many husbands do and put my WW down in any way. Even when she gets overweight, I never say anything about that.
WW is vain IMO. She can never leave the house without being dressed to the nines. Other wives always comment about how ashamed they are to take their kids to school in sweats and a t-shirt and then bump into WW all kitted out.

traicionado,

Do yourself a big favor. Buy the white horse. Buy two white horses. Horse expenses will make you forget all about the 61 pairs of shoes.

Or persuade her to do what my WW does. Collect Madame Alexander dolls. Then buy her a large cabinet with glass doors in which to put the dolls. The dolls are only $350 a pop so you can compute your break-even readily.

Traicionado...YOur wife sounds pretty normal to me in regards to her appearance. She is a young mexican woman that takes pride in her appearance. NOthing wrong with thaT. I am older than her, and I still take pride in my appearance too. Will never be caught with sweats, dont have them, never will. Spanish women are very much into appearance, looking good 24/7. Dont see anything bad with that.

By the way, how do you know she has 61 pairs of shoes? Did you count them? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

Myrta - I agree, and it is funny, because her appearance is probably part of why Traicionado was attracted to her in the first place. Now he's complaining.

I wonder if the pool guy will be able to keep her in the style she has become accustomed to?

ToddAC,

But horses need shoes too!!! And they need twice as many!!!

How much does the cabinet cost? I was never very good at my guzintas (you know like 2 guzinta 4 two times, etc.). To calculate my breakeven point, do I assume the sick horse, the dying horse or my "dream" horse?

Do I assume the glass cabinet is an endothermic or exothermic process?

BTW, if you and WW do end up in D (and that sounds like a real possibility at the moment), how will you divide up the dolls? Do you have any favorites?

I really don't need help in giving WW ideas on things to collect. Swarovski was her first. Persian carpets fell in there somewhere. Golf gloves. Forgot about that one. That was hugely expensive. Men's golf gloves are great. They come in white. Period. Women's golf gloves come in more colors than you can imagine. WW would find a pretty color she liked (e.g. sunset saffron) and buy it. The glove never cost that much but she would suddenly realize that she did not have an outfit to go with it. You know what? I am sure I forgot to include the golf shoes in the shoe count come to think of it!

Do you know what WW's passion was when I first met her? Tupperware. Still is. She is a sucker for tupperware.

Do you know what attracted me to WW? Her smile. That is what conquered me. I still remember that day.

I didn't count the shoes - she did. I don't know why she did but she did - and she only did it a few weeks ago. I will count the golf shoes though.

I have never complained about her appearance or the way she dresses except that here, she pushes boundaries that she should not push. If we go to Bahrain or Dubai, I have always encouraged her to cover as little as she wants to cover - to just be herself. There are just certain rules here in the KSA. She knows them and yet she always wants to push the limits. I like to wear shorts in the summer but I don't here (except in the expat areas) because it is not acceptable for men to wear shorts or tank tops. Short sleeves are allowed for men. Fortunately we don't have mutawa on camp - otherwise WW would be in jail and I would be sentenced to lashing and that is no joke. I would get the lashings because it is the husband's responsibility to insure that the wife obeys the rules here. So far she has been smart enough to not cross a mutawa.

But they are in love - none of that matters. Worldly things mean nothing as long as they have their love for each other. Can't you understand that?

traicionado,

Horses indeed need shoes. In the summer desert, they may need insulated shoes.

The cost of the cabinet depends on the wood and whether you want solid wood or veneer. If you want veneer, you must specify the substrate, i.e., MDF, Plywood, solid wood planks or PB. Do you want beveled glass? Adjustable shelves? Glass shelves? Wood shelves? What type of internal lighting in the cabinet? Humidification type? BTW, custom cabinets are a must because they design the dolls such that they fit in no cabinet currently being manufactured.

If we D, she can have the dolls. She has 40 GWTW dolls alone!!! I’ll take the cabinets. Walnut please. Solid. I will display all my guitars in the cabinets. I have 40 guitars. Every time she buys a GWTW doll, I buy another guitar. It’s our little arrangement. For the cost of one cabinet, WW could have purchased 2,287 pairs of designer shoes.

“Do I assume the glass cabinet is an endothermic or exothermic process?”

Depends on the humidification system...that’s part of Boyles Law, right????

“To calculate my breakeven point, do I assume the sick horse, the dying horse or my "dream" horse?”

The horse with the cough.

What I am saying to you is count your blessings. If WW gave up the dolls and especially the cabinets, I would happily buy as many shoes as she desires. And yes, man, she loves to dress up. It is part of what makes these Latina women special.

Wow! You must have more guitars than Carlos Santana.

Oh and I have counted my blessings. It's 2.

"But they are in love - none of that matters. Wordly things mean nothing as long as they have their love for each other. Can't you understand that?"

Yeah right. Talk about fantasy.

Traicionado.....pretty romantic stuff that you still remember the smile that attracted you to Gemela. I am sure she misses that part about you, the romantic,the little gestures. A woman gets more pleasure and more satisfaction from having her spouse,boyfriend,companion, take notice on little details of oneself. Not so much into buying her 20 pairs of shoes at a time. Although I am sure she enjoys that too. But what attracted your wife to the OM, I am sure it was the attention he gave her. The attention that we latin women thirst and seek to have always in our lives.

She is still very young and she is somewhat into attention and adoration. Its difficult to be so attentive of little details in a marriage when there are young children in the house. Try to give her more attention for herself. She knows the OM is no good for her, even if she is saying the contrary. If she admits he is no good, she will feel worst about herself . I did that for a long time too. OMs cannot be good people if they get involved with us , married women.

Myrta

Brief Threadjack:

ToddAC:

Forty guitars!!!!!

I am a guitar junkie-so that got my attention.

40!!! You ar a lucky man---

I have a few myself--lemme see:

Gretsch
Gibson J160E---the Lennon model
Rickenbacker 360-12---the re-issue with toaster pups
Epiphone USA made the Lennon model
Violin Bass copy
Fender Precision bass
Three Danos
Gibson LP
Yamaha Nylon String
Casio Synth guitar
Gibson one pup Melody Maker
Original Japanese Tele 1983 with American pups
Acoustic 12 string Aplause
That is only 15---gee I thought I had more.

Yes-----------you are a lucky man!

I guess I don't have as much GAS* as you

*For those that are not guitar junkies: GAS means Guitar Acquisition Syndrome

Myrta,

Before we got married (the church one), we had to go through the pláticas. I am Protestant and she is obviously Catholic. Initially the sacerdote would not agree to marry us. He and I had a long talk and once he learned that Protestants do believe in God, he was okay with it. Now that is absolutely true. The sacerdote did not know what Protestants believed. Anyway, most of the pláticas were uneventful but there were two that I remember as if they were yesterday.

One was a bad experience which almost kept me from ever going back. A particularly devout man was leading this plática and se dió cuenta que no me persignía. He asked STBW why I did not. She explained that I was Protestant. He went ballistic. He ranted and raved and almost threw me out of the church. He begged STBW not to even think about marrying me. Fortunately everyone else in our class rallied around me. Even so, it was a tough few days.

The other significant plática was one in which we broke off into parejas with a mentor. I remember the mentor asked me why I wanted to marry STBW. I confess I didn't have an answer. I don't guess it had ever occurred to me as simply as that. I had no idea what to say. The guy answered for me. He said "porque la quieres y la quieres hacer feliz". That was an epiphany. The lights came on. It was so simple. How could that not have ever occurred to me? Since that day, I have asked myself the question every single day "Have I made W happy today? What can I do better to make W happy?". I appreciate your advice and will do my best to implement what you suggest. Sometimes I feel that nothing I can do will ever be enough. That may end up being the case. We'll see.

Stan-ley,

Gretsch? Yes you are a man of taste.

Personally I still want an Ovation Roundback.

I did buy a bass once but, after a few days, it really started to smell. I guess I should have had it stuffed and mounted. Finally I had to get rid of it. Now I have a fake singing one I got at Walmart. It plays better than I do on my one lone guitar.

Traicionado.....your story is very touching and sweet. I can see how much you love your wife <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. You staying with her after she had the affair, its the biggest proof of love any woman can have. If you did not love her with all your heart and soul, you would be gone!!! Its funny that such simple question asked by the mentor, had you at loss of words. YOu seem to be very outspoken, I bet that was what attracted Gemela to you. JUst continue showing her your love and support while she goes thru withdrawal. Soon (I am sure not fast enough for you) your wife will be getting closer to you and more receptive to your love and affection. Gemela knows who is the good guy here, have no doubt about that. We "latina girls" are no dummies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. Well, maybe while having the affair,...but soon we realized the craziness of our actions. Just be there for her, love her, but dont overwhelmed with it. Try to be close to her, but keep your distance. At the beginning of withdrawal its kind of contraproducent to show and try for SF. I was not up to it, but tried to please and convince my husband that I was here because I love him. But dont push her, because sometimes that causes resentment, if she is not ready for it.

And dont worry, her OM does not measure to your knees!! Estoy tratando de traducir el refran en espanol de " no te llega ni a la rodilla". I dont know if you heard that before. YOu are a much better person, and you are her husband and father of her kids. You will make it.

Myrta

gemela had a busy day. She went out to play golf this AM before she had to pick up the girls for lunch. She started by herself but on the second hole ran into a threesome of women and started playing with them. They traded phone numbers and made a date to play this next Monday. We got the washing machine back from Sears service (3 weeks without washer) so she has been washing clothes like crazy. We bought bedside tables for DDs night before last so she completely rearranged the DDs' bedroom.

We went to soccer last night. I had to coach because they were short. We won one and tied the second and DD1 scored three goals. Then went to the "horse and hound". It was a bit of a disappointment for the DDs but they did get to see it. Today is the running club "Pub Crawl" in the PM but we have to go into Khobar in the AM to buy things for DDs' birthday party next week. I think it may be Friday before I can get gemela back on line. She is busy enough that she does not usually sit down at the PC. I have to remind her and I have to be careful about that.

gemela has been affectionate lately but we have been staying away from SF for about a month. Not entirely. Se le bajo la regla hace una semana so right now it is moot. I have been avoiding it as much as possible without making it an LB. When it has happened, she has initiated it. Even so, I know all her cues and I know how to avoid it without upsetting her. On the other hand, when we have had SF lately, she has been pretty insistent about it and impossible to avoid. I won't go into details.

I am happier just spooning or holding hands. I don't really enjoy SF at the moment and I am not sure why. This is one of the things that worries me a lot. I prefer to avoid the question entirely by avoiding SF. I will continue to have SF with WW when she wants to but I personally will stay away if I have the choice. SF confuses me and I don't know why.

Oops.. I am just now in a MSN chat with SIL telling me to send WW to Mexico for a while to get away from all this. She is just so helpful..

Traicionado...it seems your wife is keeping busy and doing well. Is good that she plays golf and you have that in common. My husband tried many years ago to get me into the sport, but I just did not liked it. But she should come back and post and give us some feedback in how she is feeling and doing.

Your take on SF is very different than my husband's. Right after DD, he wanted SF 24/7!! He was so obssesed, in reclaiming him as his woman. He got hypersexual, I did too for a while, but then mine diminished, because of my withdrawal. NOw I am happy to say we as normal as any couple . Do you feel repulsion for your wife because of the A? My husband was repulsed by me but just the night he found out about the affair. I could not even touch him. Has your wife noticed that you are not so up to SF? Is a good thing that she wants to and is initiating it.

It will not be a good idea for your wife to go to Mexico at this time. YOu need to be together and work in the problem right now. Talk about it and get close to each other again.

Myrta

I agree with Myrta - no Mexico right now, and when she does go, it would be nice to do it as a family.

Staying busy is good for her, so I'm happy that is going happening. She sounds like a fun person, and I'm hoping she will be feeling better soon.

traicionado,

I bought the book SAA as I know you did. I read forty pages and WW hid the book. I haven't seen it since. So my memory could be a little foggy but I seem to recall that not engaging in SF is a LB. Am I correct on that?

Remember my sermon about thoughts -> words -> actions, etc? Change your thoughts. Saying you have no interest in SF starts the vicious progression that affects your behavior. You know why you are not interested in SF. You have demonstrated that you are an intelligent, analytical person. Would you really expect us to believe you cannot fathom why SF is difficult for you? It is perfectly understandable.

Don’t let WW guess what’s up with you. The more normal you can cause your relationship to be, the better. You need to plug as many LB gaps as you can. This is an easy one. Initiate man initiate!

And the trip to Mexico is no good unless y’all go as a family.

Myrta,

Both our desires have changed regarding SF. When she first came back from the USA right after D-day, I think we avoided SF for about 5 weeks and then she made the decision to change. We have since gone through cycles. I think there were times when each of us wanted SF 24/7. There were even times when we both wanted it at the same time. I think it was when emotions ran very high. We also had a 6 week period of abstinence in there womewhere after her LEEP procedure.

Right now I can't say I have a repulsion to WW. I am certainly not attracted to other women in the least. My best guess is that I don't like it because it is more physical than emotional. If the difference between having sex and making love has any meaning for you, maybe that is the best explanation. SF just seems hollow somehow.

I don't think she has noticed. I don't reject her in any way. This last week has been great for the reason I mentioned.

Sorry Myrta, that didn't come out the way I meant. What I should have said is "If the difference between having sex and making love makes any sense". I hope I didn't offend you because it was not my meaning. Sorry if I did.

I'll send you my copy of SAA if you like.

I don't think I am letting no SF be a LB. I don't think WW is necessarily wanting SF because she wants it. Sometimes I think she thinks I want it and is only doing her wifely duty. Maybe that is why I don't enjoy it. When WW wants SF - I mean really wants it - well, I don't say no to that. But at least I know it is what SHE really wants. These are confusing times.

Could someone call SIL and tell her to back off? We had a nasty chat this AM. She insists on telling WW what she needs to do and tells her that she should go there and get away from all this for a time to get her thoughts back together. SIL is well-intentioned but a pain in the las pompas and you don't need to speak Spanish to know what I mean.

I would love to give some of you her email. I would love her to come to MB and read. She is a major problem in that she inadvertently becomes an enabler for WW. I would love her to just keep her mouth shut.

Can/will MIL harness SIL and get her to butt out?

I'm sure she means well. At least she isn't telling your wife to "follow her heart". That is usually what the family members say.

Myrta,

Go back and read my apology. I only realized later that what I was trying to say came out way wrong.

ToddAC,

You know me well enough to know that I have thought that all the way through. The short answer is that MIL cannot control SIL. SIL controls the information flow so MIL's view always gets SIL's bias. SIL is very headstrong. SIL and MIL fight like cats and dogs.

So call MIL.

MIL lives with SIL. SIL lives with 1 DD "in sin" with a married Argentine. Have been that way for 10 years. For some reason "BIL" won't get D. Don't know why. It is never discussed. So SIL situation is not entirely stable and MIL is even less. MIL can't make too many waves. If SIL and MIL start to fight, where will MIL go? I can't get her a visa to come here. I have to be careful with MIL. I don't think she can be that much help. SIL is too stubborn. I think she can get into problems. You know my opinion of MIL. I won't do that. FIL me cae bien but I wouldn't think twice about causing him problems. He can take one for the team any day.

Myrta,

Again - apology. The reason it came out that way is because that is my way of talking. I talk out loud to myself and what I am saying and asking at the same time is if it really has any meaning for me. BTW I do talk out loud when I am having a real problem. This drives WW crazy. I do it because it is the only way I can slow my thoughts down enough to try to understand them and look at them from different POV. The truth is I am really perplexed about this whole SF thing - and a bit worried too. If my desire never comes back, where does that leave the M?

Does SIL speak Engish? If so, I would be happy to talk to her. If not, I could ask WW to call her???

Traicionado....no need to apologize, I did not get offended at all. I understand what you said. My husband feels the same way. It is much more rewarding to make love, because you want to, than to go thru the "motions".. NO one likes to feel like they are doing them a favor. I am sure, the way you feel about SF is a transient feeling. YOur system has to maybe digest more, what your wife did. Its not so easy to do. I am sure you will get your desire back, because I read you love your wife so much. Dont worry too much about it. Worrying too much is not good for the soul.

By the way, I was meaning to ask you, are you mexican too? Or are you an americano?? Just curious!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I hope you are having a good day today with your wife.!!


Myrta

P.S. By the way....I can talk to your SIL!! Family members
should not try to get into marriage troubles. Our
families dont know about my affair, thank God!! I
will literary die if anyone knows!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Myrta,

No I am not Mexican. WW has told me on multiple occasions that she never wanted to marry a Mexican. If you ask her what I am, she will either say "gringo" or "pendejo" depending on her mood <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Just kidding - she would never say that).

We did the pub crawl yesterday. We both met some new people. She now has invitations to join the ladies for tennis and running in addition to the golf. The run ended back at the jebels for a bonfire and picnic. The last thing I remember is throwing up. Needless to say, my 24 hour rule is now in effect.

If you want to write to SIL, her email address is gemelamanzano@hotmail.com and her name is Karina. She lives in Tabasco.

ToddAC,

Please keep your WW out of this. If my WW starts bringing home GWTW dolls, I'll know where it came from <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Not to thread jack my own thread but did DS1 confront WW? Have you moved out yet?

Traicionado----Wow, you speak a lot of spanish. YOu learned from wife or before>??? So, pendejo or gringo???hmm..LOL Its funny that americans always know all the bad words in spanish before anything others.

I will be glad to write SIL,.but you should tell me exactly what to tell her. I dont want her to think I am so crazy woman calling her from DC.!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Where is Gemela today? HOw come she has not post for such long time now. She should get back in here!!! She is planning too many sport activities now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Take care

Myrta

I first learned Maracucho. Talk about bad words! I had to relearn Spanish when I moved to Mexico. "Dame una cola" in Zulia means "give me a (car) lift". That same expression in Mexico - well - you get slapped.

SIL is saying a lot of the right things - stop calling OM, give it time, ponerse ganas al matrimonio, etc. but what she is doing wrong IMO is telling WW to leave here as soon as school is out and go spend the summer with her and MIL in Mexico. That is where we disagree. I don't think WW leaving here for three months will do any of us any good. I wish SIL would stop harping on that. If WW does end up going to Mexico for the summer, I will let her go alone and keep DD's with me until vacation time.

I don't know that WW takes everything SIL says seriously. WW also knows SIL is stubborn and she doesn't really like to argue with her.

If you believe that WW staying here for until it is time for us to take vacation and that we all go together, I would appreciate the help if you can explain to SIL the reason why. SIL also gets a biased perspective from WW. They mostly talk when WW is venting. Other than that, they don't really communicate nearly as much as they used to (since exposure).

traicionado,

I have no doubt that you took my offer as facetious . WW is a genius when helping others with their problems. When our sons were teenagers, you would not believe how many of their friends would visit with my WW and ask for advice. The parents of those friends even called to learn her secret. With her own life and especaially the OM, she is a dunce. Think about it. She is good and she speaks the language.

Yes, DS1 picked me up and later went back to confront WW. Total denial. Tomorrow, she gets totally exposed including to FIL! I will almost feel sorry for her when he calls.

No I did not take your offer seriously. I did not take it as facetious but that is only because I didn't know how to spell it - otherwise I would have.

Remind DS1 how proud you are of him. FIL? Would I like to be a fly on that wall.

Myrta,

I had a nasty chat with SIL the other night. Not one of my prouder moments. Take it for what it is worth. The major problem I have with SIL is how we define the word "family".

You can view it at:

Recent chat with SIL

I just read the conversation you had with your SIL. I dont think she has bad intentions when she talks to your wife. But maybe your wife could read the wrong message in the conversations. She will hear "what she wants to hear". And I hope your wife is smart enough to see that her sister is living with a man that was unfaithfull to his wife, not a good situation to be in. Thats not a good relationship SIL is in.

Your wife should not go with out YOU to Mexico. If she goes there it should be all of you as a family. Its too soon for her to go without you anywhere!!

Myrta

Thanks for leting me know you read it. I just deleted it. I guess what I need is for SIL to stop insisting the WW leave and go there to be with her "family".

traicionado,

Interesting SIL chat. My WW also considers her family to be her parents and siblings. Wonder why?

Todd[---thats the way spanish cultures are. All my sisters(I have 3), have always critized that I always put my husband and children before my childbirth family. They cannot understand that. My husband and I always put OUR married family before any body else(parents,sibblings,etc.) Traicionado's SIL seems to be a bit pushy with the issue of Gemela going there for the summer, or the prospect of "if their marriage does not make it" that Gemela should go back to Mexico.

Myrta, that's interesting. I had always suspected that but had no validation. I fully understand that family is ultra important in the Latin culture. It is one of the things about the culture that I truly love. Well, that and the food!! I just cannot understand why WW cannot ascribe the same importance to our immediate family. BTW, my WW is from Puerto Rico.

Thanks for your input.

Todd....funny!! My husband and I were raised in Puerto Rico, but our parents are from Spain. The families have been there forever. Delicious food, is in it??? We were just there a couple of weeks ago, and we ate such good food!


But yes, birth family is extremely important for spanish families of ev ery background, I think. Thats why also, we dont put our parents in nursing home, we care for them till they die!!

t/j continues...yes the food!! My favorite is the most simple: rice and beans. I love the style where the rice and beans are cooked together in a sofrito. Whenever we go to Puerto Rico, my wife has so many relatives there that we eat like the royal family! I will also say that Latins are the most hospitable and accommodating people in the world.

Okay, now I am hungry...

Whenever WW talks about her family, it is definitely not the kids and me. Never has been. I am sort of glad to know that is "normal" and yet sad at the same time.

1) SIL has always tried to run WW's life. They are twins but SIL is the dominant one. My WW has told me this. SIL has a real temper too. WW is a lot more leveled out.

2) I was wondering about this but SIL insists on putting the DDs first. MIL did this even while FIL never lived at home. He first cheated on MIL on their wedding night and never stopped. In spite of the mistreatment, MIL suffered that for 19 years until DDs turned 18 and received a D for their birthday. Now SIL is in a 10 year "affair". Her DD was an accident. I know that becuase they almost decided to abort it because of the BC medicine she was taking. It was a high risk birth. She got pregnant again last year and "BIL" stopped talking to her for a month. What I am wondering is that deep down somewhere inside she must realize that she is in a precarious situation and that "BIL" can walk away at any time so she must be habitually concerned about her DD and how she is going to care for her. So I wonder if SIL's views on marriage are biased by the fact that she is not married? Does that make sense? Or has she been living like this for so long that she has convinced herself that it will last forever? FIL does not know she is not married. MIL does know, lives with them and has burned more wax than Madame Tussauds contains. MIL is DEVOUT and I used to tease her about her iglesia portatil. She lived with us for 2 years and that church grew and grew and she had candles going day and night. Still does. I know SIL's situation hurts MIL very much.

It bothers me that SIL is making all these separation contingency plans. It bothers me that SIL is interfering at all. It bothers me that SIL says that WW should leave here and spend the summer with her. As I said before, if WW does go, the DDs will stay here until time for vacation and I will take them and join up with WW. My DDs would be miserable in Tabasco for the summer. SIL will not allow them to use the AC because the electric bill might be too high. My DD1 is a mosquito magnet and lives in fear of them.

SIL has the belief that WW being in Mexico surrounded by her "family" is going to work some kind of magic and get WW "thinking right" again. I think SIL is trying to convince WW to Plan B. I just don't see the benefit. Plan A is going pretty good AFAIK. WW has improved quite a lot. AD seems to be helping. She is getting out of the house, meeting new people. I think she is honoring NC. Why separate for the summer? It just seems counterproductive and the wrong direction to take.

No, definately not beneficial to separate at this point. She is agreeing to NC and you are both working on the marriage, correct?

Going through withdrawal is like getting off of alcohol or cigarettes, or any drug. It brings her down, makes her have some moments of temporary clarity (happiness) and others of extreme depression. The AD will help level her out. AD's shouldn't make her happy, just more normal.

After a couple of months of NC and plan A on your part you'll see her pulling in closer to you again. Keep plan A up. Eventually she'll start to seem like the wife of old. Don't fall back into whatever old habits/behaviours she didn't like. And don't give into the temptation to let the anger you have been suppressing out upon her. Whether you know it or not, you do have much anger. We all do.

Later on down the road you can address that.

I am trying to do all the things you mentioned. Although I am not spending much time on the PC (no more programming - sigh...), any time at all gets noticed so I avoid most all of that. WW does not like me spending too much time on MB.

Yesterday I cut steel bars and reinforced her garden border fence (stainless of course). I cut a hole in the side of the house and replumbed the sweet water (we have two kinds) so now she has a tap outside for the garden rather than from inside the garage. I went to the grocery store (twice). I ordered pizza so she didn't have to cook. DDs went to a Bday party for the neighbors. I helped WW pick out the color schemes for the Bday goodie boxes she is making. She doesn't need my help - she is brilliantly creative but she wants reinforcement sometimes.

Since we have Bday for DDs coming this next weekend. I printed up invitations on photopaper and was going to make individualized invitations on the back. WW finally gave me the name list yesterday. She sat with me while we finalized the design. She sat with me while I printed the envelopes. She then went off to cut out the invitations but was having trouble. She had on a sleeveless shirt and was cold so I took off my shirt and put it on her. I got out the paper cutter and cut out the invitations while she pasted. She was really tired but we finished it together. I then got DDs into bed (they were really wired [too much sugar intake from the party] and WW can't usually control them when they are like that without screaming but I can without screaming) while she got her PJ's on. She tucked them in, got in bed and crashed.

I don't know if WW is agreeing to NC or just doesn't have the ready means to call. She does seem okay with it. She says she is trying to stay busy so she doesn't have to think about it. She even makes little jokes about the A from time to time. Nothing big - just little doble sentido comments. She laughs and I smile pretending that it's funny. It's not BTW but I pretend it is.

She has yet to go back to IC. I think she just wants to forget about it, put it in the past. I am not sure that will work for me.

While she is in withdrawal, seeing a counselor will only help her express her feeling to someone other than you.

She wont be ready for family/marital counseling until she get through this. When that happens, she'll be more open to facing the problem.

Be patient.

Good luck.

Traicionado.....Does your wife want to go to Mexico by herself? Or she is just letting her sister manipulate her? Cause sometimes, my sisters try to manipulate me into doing things I dont want. I used to go for it when I was younger, but now I know better. Now, I dont let ANYONE make me do something I dont want to. Gemela surely knows that its not a good idea to go off to Mexico on her own. Too much time to think the wrong things. She needs to stay put, in Saudi, and work in your marriage that is in trouble right now. Is she still too busy to post? She should come and post and see what she says to us. Why dont you suggest to her to come and post?

Your MIL sounds like those old fashioned women from Mexico that you see portray in "novelas". They have little santuarios set up in corners in the house and pray to the Virgen of Guadalupe. Most mexicans are devout catholics, they have a lot of faith. Really pretty and inspiring.

I think her sister is just being sisterly. I'm extremely close to my sister (not twins though) and have always encouraged her to come stay with me when she had down periods. We sisters always think we can fix each other.

I think the anti-D's are going to kick on and help things out. Hang in there, you are doing fine.

Whenever WW talks about her family, it is definitely not the kids and me. Never has been. I am sort of glad to know that is "normal" and yet sad at the same time.


We cannot generalize, but quite often that is the case. In my family it was the other way around. Family is composed of parents and children. It was also implied that spouse and kids are more important than a nagging MIL or SIL.

However, in my wife’s family it is different. The family is those that are blood related. For example any of my wife’s sisters would not think much of the H in relationship to their sisters. I must add that this is a matriarchal philosophy where men are not deemed too valuable.

1) SIL has always tried to run WW's life. They are twins but SIL is the dominant one. My WW has told me this. SIL has a real temper too. WW is a lot more leveled out.

Like most OWs your SIL despises marriage. She despises marriage because she knows she will never be asked to get married. It is a very old Freudian mechanism of defense. She would also love Gemela to keep her company. Misery loves company-------do not forget that. It is also likely that Gemela confided in your SIL while having the affair. I am almost certain your SIL is sympathetic to the infidelity.

So I wonder if SIL's views on marriage are biased by the fact that she is not married? Does that make sense? Or has she been living like this for so long that she has convinced herself that it will last forever?

Your SIL will get dumped when the next good one comes along. That is the destiny of most OWs.


It bothers me that SIL is making all these separation contingency plans. It bothers me that SIL is interfering at all. It bothers me that SIL says that WW should leave here and spend the summer with her.

Typical matriarchal thinking where men are devalued. If any of my SILs did this sort of thing to me I would let them know in a stern manner that my marriage is none of their business. None of my three SILs interfere, but that is because Myrta has made it clear that her H and kids are her main family.


SIL has the belief that WW being in Mexico surrounded by her "family" is going to work some kind of magic and get WW "thinking right" again.

Don’t do this!

IMO SIL is pulling the strings and WW is dancing. I don't think WW would consider going to Mexico without being pushed. A thought that has come out of WW's mouth from time-to-time also is that she has some fear that, if she does go off to Mexico alone, then I might decide I can live without her.

I also don't know that WW is really agreeing with SIL. WW has known all her life that it is pointless to argue with SIL. She just says "yes yes yes okay yes yes" all the while thinking "I wish she would just shut up already". I don't know if that is happening this time but I have seen it many times before.

I would say that she has indeed been too busy to post the past four days. I think I might be able to get her back tonight. I will get her back. This is her little negotiation for avoiding IC. She thinks if I know she is posting here, I won't insist on IC (she is right too). Not that I think this is better - it is just that our expat counselors here are pathetic. Even so, I wish she would do both. I have not yet gone to a Saudi counselor but I am sure their advice will simply be to have WW flogged because that is how they deal with "disciplinary" problems in their culture. Not really the best advice.

Oh, the psychiatrist I had such a problem with in my failed IC attempt? I heard yesterday she is in the middle of getting divorced. Imagine that.

Well Stan-ley,

WW has no money to buy a plane ticket so I will keep her grounded. We all go together. Thanks.

traicionado:

I just learned OM passed STDs to your marriage. How does Gemela feel about this? She has put your life at risk. Does she has awareness of what she has done? I ask because many WWs that are addicted have no concept of reality and will rationalize everything.

What are her views of OM now? Any different than right after d-day? If she is progressing normally at one point she should realize the true nature of OM.

Taricionado....Is Gemela the youngest of the sibblings? In my case I am the youngest of five. My sisters still see me as a little girl, that they can make jump with a snap of their fingers. But like I said, I am learning to say no, when I want to. I am learning to stand on my own, whether they like it or not. MOst of the time, they dont!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But, what can I do. This is my life, not theirs.

How long again since DD? I was kind of hesitant at the beginning to go to MC and IC. But I realize, its a Must, if you want the marriage to function normal again. YOu need the input of a professional that works in re-building marriages. BUt those Saudi doctors, dont sound too encouraging. I would be scare to go if I were Gemela. How long more do you have to stay there? Whats your job?

Threadjack ...............

Myrta - I'm so happy to see you posting here. You will never realize how helpful you are being. I remember back when we were all throwing our hands up over you. You are a good woman.

Stan-ley,

gemela is conviced she got the STD from a boyfriend about 12 years ago and that OM is clean. She is convinced the OM did not pass the STD. Why it just suddenly showed up on me she can't explain. My latest outbreak has lasted two months and shows no signs of going away. I don't know what to do. I thought HPV came and went but mine won't go. it is a constant reminder. Fortunately this outbreak isn't all that painful like the last one was - just a little uncomfortable if I move the wrong way sometimes.

Myrta,

gemela has an older half brother and half sister. They almost never talk. gemela and SIL are the only children from this marriage of MIL and FIL and gemela is the younger by about 5 minutes.

Dday was in August and I got the news by LD telephone call. It was another 3 weeks before gemela came home. She and OM were in constant contact by internet during that time thru a secret account she took out. OM left Saudi at end of September (I think) or early October. gemela went through a series of phone call spates with OM in late October, early December and mid January. I discovered all of them. Twice caught her red handed on the phone.

We do have the Thai food counselor we can go back to. Do you think gemela is ready yet or do I wait a bit longer. I have to admit that Thai food sounds more pleasant than flogging. I have just been waiting for an indication that it was time to go back. As long as the phone calls continued, I saw no point.

Believer.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Wow, thank you for the sweet compliment. Coming from you it means so much...You are practically a saint, with the way you have handle things in your life. I am sure wonderful things will be happening in your life, because you deserve them. Thank you again. And I do hope I am helping someone, even if is a little bit

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes Myrta, I am glad you are posting here. You have helped me more than you will ever know. You pulled me out of the dumps last week. Thanks. It is good to get input from a FWW to know how the other half lives.

Oh, I wanted to say: I don't think gemela confided to anybody about the A while it was going on. I think that SIL knew gemela was attracted to OM but that was before the A. Once the A started, I can't see anyone that gemela talked to about it and I have a lot of evidence to the contrary. I don't know what that means but somebody brought it up a few posts ago.

Well, if she has really stopped all contact with OM, she could do MC or IC. But if there is still contact, is a futile attempt, because she will just go thru the motions. Pretending to listen to MC, but really not doing what she has to. It seems like she has though. If OM is far away, and out of the picture thats great. In my case, OM lives in another country, so it was easier because of that. I am sure that if he live close or in the states, he will still be pestering me. He has flown to where I live in the hopes of resumming the Affair. Last time, though, I think he got the message! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



P.S. If I did helped you last week, I am glad. I think its
a good thing for BS to hear what a FWW. It gives
both the BS and WS a better understanding of each
other.

But yes, I would suggest to her to go back to MC and see how she reacts. If she truly wants the marriage to work, she should go, even if she feels she is not up to it. I actually looked forward to the visits with our MC. We have a great one!!

Okay I will make the MC appointment. I may take a week or so to get in. I guess I will just have to learn to like peanut sauce. Yet one more sacrifice to have to make to save the marriage - will it never end?

One question: should I tell SIL very strongly to butt out? At first I enlisted her help when I exposed to her. She has helped convinced WW not to run off with OM. I don't think WW would go to OM now if I put a ticket in her hand and took her to the airport. Personally I think those days are over. OM would find it difficult to get a visa to come back here. If he got on camp and got caught, he could do Saudi prison time. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Besides - that is not part of his fantasy. His fantasy is that WW runs off to be with him.

To answer your earlier question: I have to be here 3 1/2 more years to make it worth the effort. If I am here a full ten years, there are HUGE benefits. If I have to leave to save the M, I can do that but what I have told WW is that now, after the A, how do I know she won't decide I am not what she wants if we do leave? Why hurt our family life while she is a big question mark? That is a tough one to justify. It is not like we have to get away from the OM - he is completely gone and can never return. We are safer from contact here than anywhere else in the world.

What!! peanut sauce is delicious!! You will love it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Well, about your SIL....knowing how fiery us latina girls can be...if you do that, your wife is going to get so angry. Let Gemela be the one to tell her sister to butt off. She should do it. If my sisters knew about my affair, they would have a field day....telling me this and that! Talking down to me, like I am an infant. But if you are unconfortable with your SIL putting her "two cents" all the time, you should tell your wife to talk to her. Tell her that it bothers you a lot.

Is a good thing OM is out of the picture. And you know Traicionado...the OM fantasy is not to run away with your wife,,,,,but to destroy your marriage!! He would not know what to do with a woman that already has kids and on top of that is older than him.

Whether you stay in Saudi or go...Gemela will stay with you. I am sure she knows whats best for her. When you are out of the web of the affair, you see the world so clearly. YOu see the magnitude of your doing. I am sure that by now, Gemela knows she has nothing to win, and EVERYthing to lose, if she were to go off with OM.

Myrta

Traicionado:

It is clear that OM was never an option. You must remember one thing; these OMs get real foggy and start to build castles in the air. Myrta's OM wanted to invest in a restaurant so Myrta could be the manager and chef. All of this because he thought Myrta was a great cook. Of course; OM had zero experience in the restaurant business and no capital. He also started to have hallucinations. At times he pretended my children were his kids.

Regarding the STD: Gemela will say anything to save the good memory of OM even if he was such a low-life as to have unprotected SF. For him it was all Disneyland stuff. IMHO, you are in excellent shape where you are. Time is your ally. Do not LB Gemela and let her go thru withdrawal.

One more thing: In reality you have nothing to lose. Despite her affair you hold all the cards. There is no future with OM. From where I sit a swimming instructor is not going to give Gemela enough to buy one pair of shoes a year. In addition, you have built-in physical NC due to distance. I will admit that is a plus. If OM had been a local guy I would probably be in jail right now because I would have killed him. In fact, I pray for his death every day. As I said; you have nothing to lose--------She already broke the marriage. Look at it this way-------Try to rebuild the marriage with all your heart. If you fail then you can walk away knowing that you did not lose the marriage by not trying.

Do not think OM was a hot shot either. Within the affair most OWs are not looking for the better qualities in a man. They are simply looking for someone that meets a specific EN--------most likely admiration. As I suspect-------I am almost certain Gemela is an admiration junkie. If you treat her well and pay attention she will flourish. Is not so much that you have to buy flowers to her everyday. SIMPLY PAY ATTENTION TO HER.

I just got appt for MC on Tuesday thanks to Myrta.

One thing I am not happy about here in Saudi is that I keep getting promoted. That was not the deal when I came here. I was told I could just be an engineer and was looking forward to that. Now I spend most of my time feeding the SAP machine. If anyone has worked with SAP, you will know what I mean. It may force me to leave. Don't know yet. Other than that, life here is truly wonderful for families with small children. I can't imagine a better place. The DDs are what keep me here.

I will not say anything to SIL although I want to. WW isn't going to say anything either. I know her and she doesn't have what it takes. I never thought about SIL being an OW until you mentioned it but I can see how maybe SIL does have some resentment for WW buried in there somewhere. We just never are allowed to talk about the SIL situation. We always pretend they are married. Everyone - even MIL!

I got this snippet from a web site the OM wrote to while he was here. The date of January was about the time he first met WW. It always made me wonder if he was not talking about her. Mexicans are not too common here and everyone always thinks my wife is Philippina. I don't know. Maybe I should ask OM?

Written by OM on Jan 2, 2005 to a "friends" website.

"I'm working in Saudi Arabia for an oil company making lots of money. I am marrying a philipino as they are cheap to buy, she's a looker. Back in june to settle down in England, haven't changed have a good new year."

The guy is a creep. I hope you will stop thinking about him.

Hey believer,

In what context do I stop thinking about him? I completely gave up on the PI. Honestly I don't think about him much at all (except when I go to the bathroom for #1 - then I am reminded - even if I were blind, it is written in braille). I don't blame him for the A so don't really think about him that much. I know exactly who he was and I know exactly what he wanted from WW and I have strong evidence that she was no where near the first. I think she even knows some of them but I have to be very careful with that because of where we live.

That little tidbit from OM is from the first (and last) PI report. I just thought some of you might like to know what kind of a guy that WW fell for. I can't share that with WW - she would never believe it. OM is perfect and infallible in her eyes. I just wish I were half the man she believes he is.

I no longer obsess over the OM although I admit I did a while back. I don't think even WW is without her doubts any more but she can't tell me that. I think she prefers to continue to believe in the fantasy even though more and more of her realizes it was probably not real. As Myrta said, probably easier to feel good about herself.

Traicionado,

If I were in your situation, saving my marriage would be my FIRST PRIORITY!, not dds birthday, not SIL's opinions or situation, not my job. At this point all those things are not important, because without a marriage none of them really matter.

I can see that YOU are doing a great plan A, but I don't see Gemela doing anything other than PRETENDING that nothing happened, and she seems to have actually CONVINCED herself that nothing has. She is happy and busy as though everything were fine but she is NOT addressing her marriage problems. At least that's the impression I get from you because she hasn't written here and she's not going to IC, talking to anyone else about it as far as you know, so WHAT IS SHE THINKING?

I would be worried. I would expect my WS to either be in withdrawal (not happy) or repenting (OM is no longer wonderful). Neither seems to be happening to Gemela.

I'm glad that you have MC on tuesday. Hopefully you will be able to get a glimpse of what Gemela is thinking at this stage.

Just my opinion.

My perception is that what you are saying is pretty accurate. Can you recommend anything else I should be doing? It does concern me that I don't see anything like withdrawal. This is what makes me think she is still in contact at times but on the other hand half of me thinks she isn't. She is taking cipralex.

You say I should be concerned. What is it you think I need to be concerned about?

I don't have enough experience to know what you should do ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

At this point I would wait for the MC appointment. Hopefully you'll have more information.

In the meantime maybe you could ask her about her posting? Not force her to post, but rather whether she's not interested in posting, why she isn't, etc and that may lead to some convo on what she's feeling or thinking.

Are you sure she's not in contact with OM?

I will try to get her to post tonight (next 5 hours or so). I think I can get her to but we will see.

I cannot be absolutely sure she is not in contact with OM short of having her followed. If it gets to that point, I just want her gone. I am willing to do just about anything for the M except drive myself crazy with paranoia. She just isn't worth it. I love her but I am also willing to accept that it just won't work out if it comes to that.

If she is in contact, she will deny it in MC like she has every time before. There is something else to consider too. I have no idea what she does during the day. For all I know she could be home crying her eyes out and then put her game face on when I get home. I will get her to post on MB as long as you promise not to tell me what she says.

Hay Traicionado! I don't want you to force her to post, or even ask her to post. I wonder what's going on in her mind, and who she's talking to, because she doesn't seem to be telling YOU much, she's not going to IC, nor is she posting. That's my point.

asking her why she hasn't read or posted might help to get the convo going about where she is emotionally. She needs to talk to YOU, not necessarily to us.
Maybe you could suggest it is a bit rude to ignore the messages she may have to get her at least back to the subject of your marriage and the A, if she's trying to ignore it all.

I haven't and won't tell you anything about what she says in her thread. I do understand how important it is at this stage for her to find safety somewhere or with someone. I was just trying to find a thread by a WS where he described how he felt like a "wounded animal" for you as an example of how a WS could feel once they realize what the A has meant, but I couldn't find it. Will keep looking.

Have to go out with the dog for a while, but I'll be back.

What I have been successful with is just tell her that people are posting me because they are worried about her (it is the truth) and I just ask her to post so that everyone knows she is okay. That is as far as I "push" her.

I don't think MB is the solution to our M but it does give her a healthy outlet to discuss her feelings.

I have been focused on Plan A, AD, IC, etc. and have not pushed discussions. Hopefully MC will be the trigger to get that dialogue back. You are right - for the moment we (i.e. she) are just pretending that nothing ever happened and I am allowing it for the time being because I have been waiting on something. Problem is I don't know what it is I am looking for.

gemela is being extremely close, touchy-feely, affectionate, huggy, and she consistently is doing that. She is not turning that on and off. I also initiate some of that but she definitely does more. I say that because many times I hold back just a bit to see whether she makes the effort or not and she almost always does. We have avoided SF now for maybe two weeks. Mainly because of the regla which I see is now probably about over. BTW, I am not going to express an opinion one way or the other but the regla abstinence has always been her insistence - always - but it seems reasonable enough. Just don't hammer me with an LB violation for it okay?

If she posts on MB tonight, I know she will be in a bad mood afterward. I know how to deal with that so no problem.

I think you're doing better than great! I think I'll keep this thread in my archives.

MB may not be the solution, but I don't see anything else "helping her" including herself. She seems to be behaaving as though there were no problem! and that's the main problem from my point of view. But that's just what I interpret from your posts.

Of course I told you to be patient, and you're right there: what are you being patient FOR? that's the point. I thought she was going into withdrawal or coming out of the fog. But neither seems to be happening.

We'll wait for the next few days and see what happens.

Traicionado....just a quick note, since I have to go and pick up my husband at his car's dealer.

About your wife not showing any signs of withdrawal....Traicionado...I did not show to Stanley at all my withdrawal. If I had to cry, or be depressed,.or whatever,,,,I did it in private. I did not want to hurt him further by showing signs that I was missing OM. I thought it would be horrible to show him that too. Its an excellent thing that Gemela is being affectionate and warm to you. While in withdrawal most WWs are not receptive to their husbands. About the abstinence thing during the "regla" I am that way too. I dont like to do it while I have it. Another trait of "latinas"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You are doing really well. And I am posting to you, because I like you and I want you to understand a bit more Gemela. Not because I want her to post....although it would be nice too.

Myrta

One of the differences I have noticed between American and Mexican culture is in the kitchen. Americans refrigerate everything. Mexicans tend not to refrigerate too much. Food is left out, you boil it every night before bed, keep the lid on and eat it again the next day. That was always difficult for me to adjust to. I still prefer to refrigerate even though I will admit the other method can be effective too. One thing, however, that should never go without refrigeration is leftover Domino's garlic bread. I just wish we had known that on Friday.

I thought I was helping WW Friday by ordering Domino's. She just had to get garlic bread, she just had to not eat all of it and she just had to leave it out all night. DD's had garlic bread for lunch. It is now 4:15 AM and we just walked in the door only 15 minutes ago after having spent the entire night in the emergency room. DD's both got food poisoning and have been on IV's all night. Looking at the bright side - at least it was a family activity. I don't have enough time to get any sleep before going to work.

On the withdrawal issue, I guess I have been a little concerned. I can't see that it will ever occur. WW could be hiding it. What if she never goes through withdrawal? What if she just continues loving OM forever? If WW never "gets over" OM, that doesn't really leave much hope for our M. WW's behavior is weird and doesn't seem to fit any description of any other WW I have read about. I guess that is what bothers me - there is no example to compare it to. I don't really expect great things out of MC. WW has always deceived the MC lady very effectively and I have no doubt that she will continue to do so.

Anyway, I don't really have any other ideas on what to do expect wait. The situation we have right now is definitely not acceptable as a long term solution and I will eventually shut it down if there is no improvement. If I catch her breaking NC, I will call it quits immediately. On the other hand, as long as NC is maintained, I think I can tolerate this for about 6 more months if I have to. If things are then as they are now, it will be time for a plan of a higher letter of the alphabet than "A".

I do wish gemela would communicate just a little. A lot has gone on over the past few months to just ignore. I don't think it has ever occurred to her that she did anything to hurt me. She is the victim in her eyes.

I am so tired. This is going to be a long day.

gemela did post tonight but could not stick around. We had to take DD's to the emergency room and it took all night.

One thing that might be helpful is if some of you could suggest when the best time for her to post would be in relation to when you might be logged on. We live at GMT+3 so you will have to work out the math and convert that to local Saudi time for her. I think the time of day she picks has much to do with how much she will post.

Hang in there. She won't have feelings for the OM forever. It should be over soon.

I know what you mean about the no refrigeration thing. My roommates do that. I refrigerate everything. They prefer to leave everything out. So when I cook, I make smaller batches. I don't eat the stuff that is left out - they may be immune to the bacteria, but I don't think I am.

You've had sleepless nights in the last six months right? Just another one of them. I take it DD's are okay now? It's tough having to take kids to the ER. Look on the positive side: you were right there with your family ensuring DD were attended to. Strong symbolism for WW.

believer,

I know that, beyond question "it" will be over soon. Where doubt enters the picture is when I try to decide which is the "it" that is going to be over. I would like to clear that doubt soon.

ToddAC,

DDs are resting quietly in their beds. I was so tired and could barely stay awake holding DD2's hand. She was fast asleep hugging her osito (which is really a rat but she is in complete denial). I got up, went out and found a vending machine. I found a Diet Pepsi that I am ashamed to admit I simply lusted after. I wanted it more than life itself. I had two riyal bills on me (machine didn't take anything larger) and the DP cost 1 riyal and an Ice Tea (WW's drink of preference) cost 2 riyals. I bought the Ice Tea. Didn't even think about it twice. Personally I think it is sleep deprivation.

Although I did want to add that, while I was looking at the can of Diet Pepsi, I heard the caffeine calling me. I heard it say "I beckon thee, harken unto my call. Partake of my simple gift and I shall replenish your spirit." and I thought - "back up the bus! Pepsi is an American product - why the heck can't caffeine speak simple English?" and it kind of annoyed me. I thought the caffeine was being a bit pretentious.

believer,

Way back in chemical engineering school I was surprised the number of bacteria that public sanitary drinking water is allowed to have per cubic centimeter per federal guidelines. Just the thought of putting all that in my body! But our bodies develop immunity quickly and we never notice. Now the water in Mexico may have more bacteria or it may have less but what is important is that it has different bacteria for which a typical gringo has never developed immunity. On the other hand, it is just as easy for a Mexican to have problems drinking the water in the USA as it is for a gringo to drink the water in Mexico. The obvious solution is to drink beer instead. Now Paris drinking water is notoriously bad. Cairo? I brushed my teeth with beer in Cairo. When I lived in Abu Dhabi, I used to believe the water was pretty good – until the day I found the two dead birds IN the holding tank on the roof!

Haha. I suppose you are right. My roommates come from Tehuantepec, Oaxaca, where having a refrigerator in the house is very rare. It's kind of funny, as they regard the refrigerated food as being a bit suspicious.

Right now, there are some black beans on the stove, some rice, and some chicken with mole. As you said, they heat it up at night and cover it. But what about during the day?

They never seem to get sick from anything, so I guess I won't worry about it.

But the other weird thing about some parts of Mexico, is they never seem to know why someone died. People there just die, even young ones. Here we have the autopsy, tests, etc. There, they just bury them.

I'm always wondering if it was because the chicken was left out all day.

Believer....how do you do it...you have such great insights....I always look for your posts. I just know there is gold there!

Daisy

If you heat it and don't take the lid off, it is a sterile environment so should not "go bad" during the day. On the other hand, a typical pot with lid is not a true hermetical seal so there is a partial pressure differential of bacteria on the outside which would tend to make them want to try to get in. I did study partial pressures of gases and liquid phases but I never studied partial pressures of bacteria. Safer just to refrigerate.

I could go for a good mole right now. In very few countries on earth do people obsess so with cause of death as in the USA. Since it (that and taxes as they say) was inevitable anyway, what difference does "why" make?

We want to know why the people died, so that we can prevent it next time if possible, and have people live longer, so that they can pay taxes longer!

The preceeding message has been brought to you by the IRS. And they thank you for your support.

This thread is cracking me up.

By the way, to answer your question, the best time to post is weekday mornings. It is 9:00PM here, so about 11 to 13 hours from now, but on weekdays.

I do believe you are a little slap happy.

Why didn't you simply buy two DP and give one to WW? Never mind, I know. You are a nice guy.

And, BTW, I don't mind talking about dead chickens, bad water, Dominos pizza, DP, Lipton Tea, autopsies, beer(!), Mexico, vending machines and refrigerators. But, let's keep the IRS out of this thread!

Traicionado...I am sorry about your little girl having food poisoning...Scary....Hey, I did not know they had Domino's in Saudi Arabia...wow,,,,cool...
I had never left anything overnight out of the refrigerator. We are so scared in my family to get food poisoning,that we take all measures to prevent it. But, yeah, I can see the bright side that you see too. YOu were all together, as a family...nice. I am sure your daughter will be much better tomorrow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Like I said before..I never showed my husband any signs of withdrawal. I hid them from him. I thought it would hurt him more, if he saw me crying or suffering for stupid OM. Maybe your wife is doing the same thing? I am sure she misses him still. has not been that long. But it will be less and less every day. One question...if you find out that she has been talking to him on the phone...would you kick her out the door? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Thats a good time limit you are putting to your situation...six months is more than enough for your wife to show improvement signs. And she should also open up more to you, talking.being more affective,etc. Just have patience with her. Was she a big talker before the Affair? Cause, I never was, but after the Affair, my husband had a top priority for me to be talking 24/7, and I was never like that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

No, I dont think Gemela sees herself as the victim. Not at all! She knows what she did, and she knows it was wrong. The victims here are you, and your daughters....and Gemela was the victim of OM.

I hope you have a good night sleep and everything is better tomorrow for all in your home.

Take care

Myrta

Well that is a tough one. Plan A says don't do it but Plan A also says place time limit. If you look at time since D-day, 6 months is already up so, if she is still talking to him on the phone, I think the simple answer is that she has no intention of ever stopping, no intention of ever taking the M seriously and no intention of ever reconciling with me. If she were serious about trying, she wouldn't call or talk to him. Do I absolutely have to kick her out? No. Is there any reason to let her stay? None that I can think of for the reasons I just mentioned. Why shouldn't I kick her out and get on with my life? What is the reason I would let her stay if she is maintaining contact? Could there be a reason that makes any sense?

What would you suggest I do and why? All I risk losing is an unfaithful wife? Throw me a bone here. What is my motivation?

Myrta, believer, anybody?

"have patience with gemela". Hmmm.... Where exactly have I been failing in that lately? I think being patient is the only thing I have been doing lately (according to cc46 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Let me ask one question. So far I have had to swallow everything, bear everything, suffer everything for WW and M and DDs. Will there ever come a time when I will be able to start healing this hole I have in my chest? Are we BS's ever allowed to recover? Or is this simply something I am going to have to get used to living with the rest of my life? I hate to sound so selfish and it is probably just lack of sleep but I have not known what R is for some time now. I believe it is something I still hope for but I am not sure exactly what it is any more.

Okay, never mind. I am just feeling sorry for myself. Just don't even think about it Bigger. I don't want to give you the pleasure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I will still pose this question, however: Are we BS's ever allowed to recover?

Just ignore everything above that.

You have earned the right to feel sorry for yourself. Go ahead and enjoy it. Thank your lucky stars the Bigger is not here.

Plan A is six months after A ends I think; not six months past DDay. BS are allowed to recover. That's why the time limit. Everyone has their own fuse however. You have to find the balance that keeps you on Plan A for as long as possible but ends Plan A before you go crazy. Also, a strict Plan A has you on AD's to ease things a little.

Well then we have a major misunderstanding because I didn't think that at all. I thought R was after the A ended. I must have this process all mixed up. I thought Plan A was while A was still on-going. I need to go back and study SAA. Maybe I just don't remember what Plan A is supposed to be.

You may well be correct. I am working with memory here and you know about my memory. I cannot grab my copy of SAA because WW hid it. Maybe threw it away.

Myrta,

You pretty much asked the $64,000 question. Can you go back 4 or 5 posts and answer my question to your question? I know what advice your Stan-ley gave me on that topic a couple of days ago.

You guys chatted all night! (for me). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

These differences in local times are realy bothersome.

I just ot up and read the whole chat.

Plan A actually starts on d day NOT when the affair ends because the whole purpose of plan A is to END the A and correct the BS contribution to what made it possible in the first place.

Plan A should last as long as the BS is not losing his love for the WS. When that begins to happen, plan B should begin.
The purpose of plan B is to protect the BS and his/her love for the WS UNTIL the A ends or the BS actually personally recovers and decides that he/she doesn't want the marriage any longer. Plan B is ALL ABOUT THE BS.

Now in your case Traicionado, I believe you are doing a great plan A. What I'm not sure about is what's happening with Gemela and the A. From what you post,you don't know either because she is not talking.

She doesn't seem to be in withdrawal, she's not working on recovery, has she admitted the A was wrong or told you that she has decided that she wants to stay in the marriage and will do whatever it takes? what is the situation?

If she were in withdrawal, you would need to be patient.
If you were in recovery you would be talking about your marriage and your relationship.

The only other possibility I see is that the A continues. An EA of course.

Now, before you "kick her out" I think you need to find out, find proof, then you would have to confront her,and I think you would still have some exposure, and then according to her reaction decide what to do.

Maybe you should make a summary of the situation and ask the more experienced people here to give you some guidance.

first things first:

ToddAC,

Told ya! Told ya!

Okay, got that out of my system

cc46,

The question is more fundamental than that. The question is not what is she doing and what I am going to do about it. The question is hypothetical and is what I would do if I found out. As I have mentioned before, I have assumed that she is still in an EA, still in contact and doing everything I can to avoid finding out because it will make it almost impossible for me to continue in Plan A. So it is really a "what if" scenario. I am not trying to find out. I am not trying to catch her.

I will say I have thought about this some more and my actions may well depend on the source of the knowledge. If WW were to tell me herself she was still calling, I bet I would take no action whatsoever. That is because I would value the honesty over the pain of the betrayal.

WW has said the words that she has decided to stay and commit herself to the M. The proactive actions have yet to materialize from my POV. Being patient....

I am not disagreeing with you cc46 - I am trying to make sense out of the biggest doubt I have and value this discussion.

thanks,

Oh and ToddAC, Told ya!

Before I give you my opinion, let me warn you that I have only been on MB for about 18 months and I had no previous knowledge of this subject. Some people have been here years and have seen a lot of situations.

My perception is that plan A becomes "enabling the affair" at some point. If there is no exposure going on, if the WS isn't coming out of the fog i.e. withdrawal, or regret, or depression, anger, or some kind of change in their attitude, the A is still going on, even if it's only in the WS's mind and the OP is out of the picture, and plan A is no longer a plan to break up the affair and the first step in Dr. Harleys plan to "survive an affair". The affair is enabled.

There have been many threads here about whether plan A has gone on too long or not.

Anyway, you could also mail Dr. Harley and get his opinion. He answers inmediately.

BTW, have you read Bob Pure's thread? he even has a summary of the whole thing. I think you would be very interested in it.

Another thing, not wanting to find out is NOT fighting for your marriage. Personally I think you have to find out what is going on. If you are sure that the A is over you have to find out what Gemela is thinking. From your posts, I stll get the impression that she's trying to ignore it all

Hmm Traicionado.....Let me give you my take on this as a FWW. I mantained phone contact with OM for some time after DD. Even though I was talking to OM I was still working on the recovery of my marriage. Even if that sounds contradictory. Its very very difficult to cut all contact suddenly with OM. The addiction to the Affair its so strong that is practically impossible to cut completely and never look back. Especially because OMs still working on their smooth talk and you feel guilty and bad for them!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. But the talks were scarce and dry, not like before, but we did still talk. He would call my house, give me guilty trips, and I would talk and try to make him feel better. But at the same time, would tell him that I was working on the marriage.

When my husband found out, he was very hurt and angry with me, but he did not kick me out the door. You know what he made me do? He made me change my cell phone,house phone and my screen name, email address. OM would send me messages once in a while in my email or leave love messages in my away messages. So, OM was still trying to work on my mind, from far. But at this point the effect was not the same. After we cut physical contact things changed a lot. And of course the talks did too. Because he knew he had lost(OM) my husband was at my side, and he was not. But his hopes of us running away into the sunset" were with him for a long time.

So, to answer your question.....the reason for you to mantain your wife? Its, that you love her, that you are working in the recovery of the marriage, that you want your girls to have BOTH parents together, and most important, that you LOVE her, and dont want to see her completely ruining her life!! Those should be your reasons for staying with her, even after finding out, that she was still mantaining contact.

It is easier to give up, than to work in the marriage, I know that. My husband wanted to give up many times with me. But he did not and we are almost two years after DD, very happy with each other. Traicionado, I feel so loved by my husband that it sends me butterflies to my stomach!! Your wife is very young, I am sure you can make her fall in love with you completely again. Romance her, love her, admire her,value her like she is a jewel and she will fall in love with you again. Her OM sounds really dumb and inmature, and he is way too young for her, and I am sure he does not love or value her. Even if she is still talking to him, every time they talk, little things that he says, will make her open her eyes to his true self. So, just be strong , I am sure you can make it in your marriage.

Do you think you have the strenght,the patience and the love to do it??

Myrta

I agree with Myrta (sorry cc). I've posted with her from the start, and she reminds me of Gemela, although Myrta was a little less compliant. She used to get angry at posters and kick them off her thread.

But look at her now, she's one of our most helpful posters.

Well to be fair, cc46 is not the only person giving me this advice which is why I find it very interesting. I will try to answer Myrta's question ... Yes.

Will the calls eventually die a death on their own? Each call is still a deception - furthering the lie. I don't care that they chat and coo and say their ILY's. I think it is pathetic. It doesn't make me mad. What does bother me is the feeling of wasted effort. Yes it is far easier to quit. I always knew that. However, I think you captured my motives in a nutshell.

I was watching a program on John Nash this PM and, due to sleep deprivation, I may have nad an encounter with that same coyote that Homer Simpson met in the desert after the chili cookoff. Anyway, I have decided that I am having a Crazy Ivan and am even going to grab the acronym CI if it is not already taken. I will write about the CI in the morning because for anyone who might be following this thread, I think it may be important.

Thanks Myrta, cc46 and believer for the discussion. I guess I am still on the right track but it doesn't hurt to get the compass out every now and again.

Traicionado....I fully understand that would be really dissapointing to find out. But ......if you think ab out it..finding out about the affair..was the biggest blow and dissapointment that anyone could have. But yet, you wanted to get your wife, you wanted to end the affair. So, why should a few calls make such a big difference to you. When you come to MB, you soon find out, that calls, continous contact,etc, "is par for the course". Is not an easy task to end everything that an affair brings into one's life. Is such work, such effort,its exhausting, for all parts involved.

You sound very tired, when a person is so exhausted you see no end to misery, you see no resolve of matters. You just see ugly things ahead of you. You have to rest, sleep,eat well and you will see things differently.

Your wife does not want to end the marriage, she wants to make it work. But she feels weak, she feels like she can't, she has the pressure of OM. But she still wants to remain married.

Have you talked to OM? Has she changed her cell phone, her e-mail,etc.? If she hasn't , she should!! You have to put road blocks to OM. she has to see that there is no way in ******, he is going to continue this.

How is your daughter today? I hope she is better. Did you stayed by her side all night? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

If she were serious about trying, she wouldn't call or talk to him.


Traicionado:

Harley says that the WS actually falls in love with OP in a romantic affair. But, there is more; the intensity of that love is probably much higher than the love they had for the spouse during courting. In any relationship the initial love feelings tend to be strong because the relationship is not yet secure. Any obstacle fuels the passion. The obstacles in an affair are monumental. The relationship becomes “Us against the world” and the love feelings are very strong and hence they lead into the fog.

What is my motivation?

As I said above. The love in an affair is very intense; but there is more. The WS is expected to end this highly intense relationship in an instant. The best analogy I can think is “coitus interruptus” or trying to stop an orgasm once it has started. These are bad analogies, but indicate how hard it must be for the WS to suddenly end all communication.

If you go back to normal open relationships you will see that the end is always gradual and the communication lessens over time. In addition, the end of a relationship in daylight starts after things go sour. For affair partners things are not going sour and they have high-enhanced feelings for reasons stated above. In fact, I told my wife that if ever fall for another woman the way she fell for her OM I would be a goner. Perhaps this can give you some empathy. Also understand that every love unit she gave OM was subtracted from you. If she was 100% in love with OM she had nothing left for you other than the LONG TERM ATTACHMENT love that is different from early lusty love. You must wait.


Will there ever come a time when I will be able to start healing?

The only thing that can heal you is time. You can mend the marriage or you can get a divorce. However, in the end you will be healed by father time. Probably 2-5 years. Of course, some folks never heal.

If WW were to tell me herself she was still calling, I bet I would take no action whatsoever. That is because I would value the honesty over the pain of the betrayal.

This is quite correct. When Myrta kept talking to OM I was mostly hurt because she had the audacity to betray me once again even thou she saw how wounded I was.



Myrta said:

Even if that sounds contradictory. It’s very difficult to suddenly cut all contact with OM. The addiction to the Affair its so strong that is practically impossible to cut completely and never look back. Especially because OMs still working on their smooth talk and you feel guilty and bad for them!!

This is something I failed to understand early on. However, in her quest to slowly dump OM Myrta caused a lot of damage to OM. Every time Myrta said something to ease the pain of OM she did nothing but give him hope. Therefore, the OM became a pest and stalker. If she had cut ties in a more definite manner OM would have suffered less. However, like the song says----“Breaking up is hard to do”.


Myrta said:

But the talks were scarce and dry, not like before, but we did still talk. He would call my house, give me guilty trips, and I would talk and try to make him feel better. But at the same time, would tell him that I was working on the marriage.

This was the reason why OM never went away. Myrta gave him nothing but hope with her little talks to ease him down gently. I know in my heart Myrta did not want to leave, but in the aftermath of the affair people have a hard time cutting all ties.

So, it will not be easy. Myrta has been one of the most cooperative FWWs in MB and still you can see how the addiction gets in the way.

Traicionado,

I think you are a very intelligent and kind person and I'm sure you will figure out for yourself what you have to do.

One thing that no one can deny is that we can only control ourselves and we must be responsible for our own actions.

If you want some interesting reading look up Faithinme's thread. In just a few months you will go through the whole "natural history" of an affair , with MB treatment and a real ending. So is Bob Pure's.

Dr. Harley himself said: there is plan A and plan B, and no others.
Of course you don't have to follow Dr. Harley's plans. In the end, statistically speaking, there doesn't seem to be much difference in the number of divorces or non divorces whether youuse Dr. Harley's ideas or not. The main difference is the quality of the relationship you obtain after you survive the affair. At least that's my point of view.

Okay traicionado, okay! Sorry for the disinformation. I reread the article and see where I got confused.

cc46,

Yes I read Bob Pure's thread a while back. Even have a pair of Diesel boxer shorts tucked away just in case. BTW, your thoughts are identical to those of someone else who has been helping me. I absolutely agree that Plan A can get to the point where it becomes enabling and I always feel I face that risk. Maybe my plan A is too good in a sense. The sad part is that is no longer a plan. It has become me or I have become it. The only part of the Plan that remains a true plan is avoiding LB's as much as possible.

Stan-ley,

If WW is calling OM, she is doing it from public phones or has an accomplice here. I doubt the latter because it would mean she was disclosing everything to that person. I have enough information to convince myself that she is not making contact from our house. I can find no evidence that OM is calling here. She could have another secret cell phone hidden away. That is a real possibility but finding it would be almost impossible and a major LB. My best guess is that she is getting money from somewhere to buy phone cards or, more likely, they have a preset schedule whereby she goes to a certain public phone at a predetermined time each day and waits for his call. Either that or the hidden GSM are the most logical.

On the other hand, maybe she is not talking to him at all - but, if she were not talking to him, I would expect her to be behaving a lot differently by now because officially she should have not spoken a word to him since January 26th.

If she still is in contact, I don't know how I would prevent it completely short of having her followed 24/7 and, as I have said before, I would rather be divorced. I will not allow myself to be consumed by paranoia. I have to draw the line somewhere and that is where it fell. It is ultimately WW's responsibility to stop the A and nobody else's

Myrta,

Yes I was tired yesterday. I left work at noon - not because I was falling asleep but because I was afraid I was going to say something to someone I would regret. I came home and slept for about 1.5 hours. I was standoffish to WW for pretty much the same reason I left work. DDs are mostly recovered from food poisoning but WW and I had planned to go to Khobar to get the rest of the things we needed for the Bday party this weekend so she and I left at 3:30.

Crazy Ivan (or CI): I have been doing my best on Plan A for almost 2 months. I was on Plan A before that but not always a good one. All of the 2x4's here have pretty much hit their mark. I had dabbled with the 180 plan twice over the past few months and both times there were positiveish results. I don't like the 180 plan that much but I can still see some merit to parts of it at times. In the movie (and book) "The Hunt for Red October", the Russian submarine kept a constant course most of the time but, every onece in a while, doubled back just to keep anyone that might be behind him on his toes. Tom Clancy called that a "Crazy Ivan". Once the CI was done, the submarine went right back on its original course.

I had a CI yesterday. While WW was getting ready to go to Khobar, I was trying to keep busy. I found one set of sheets and mattress pad already dry (we had to wash vomit off everything!) so I went to DDs room to make one bed. There was a song on the radio that I have been trying to get the name of for months. I want to download it or buy it but need the name (it is instrumental only). You don't know how badly I want it. If you need to know why, ask and I will tell you otherwise it is not important. Anyway, I closed the door so I would not have to listen to Dora the Exploradora talking on DD's laptop next door and listen to the song. I was making up the bed and, don't know why, just broke down. I haven't done that in a long while. Maybe I was just tired. WW could not hear me as the door was closed. After about a minute I got myself back together, finished the bed and went downstairs to wait for WW.

In route to Khobar, I stayed quiet, kept my distance, did not initiate conversation but responded appropriately, etc. Sort of a mini-180 plan. WW asked me what was wrong. Asked if I was mad. I said no I wasn't and then I used the same tactic on her that she always uses on me when I try to ask how she is doing. I snipped just a little and asked why something had to be wrong? She was not being very talkative either so do I need to be just chatting away all the time to make her happy? That sounds harsher than it really was but it is hard to explain. I did to her exactly what she always does to me. Unfortunately I don't think she will ever be able to realize that.

It is important on a CI to not let WW think I am angry with her because a CI is not about anger. The CI is a quasi-passive attempt to remind WW that all is not paradise and that there are still problems in the M that need to be addressed. I can't come right out and say this because it becomes an LB but the CI is a subtle reminder to WW that I do have feelings too. Whack me if you want but this is what preserves my sanity. This is my little "time out" from Plan A when I get tired. WW always responds positively to a CI as well. She quickly changes a few of her behaviors to be less self-involved. It has been my experience that a good CI should last 48 hours because a 24 hour CI can be misinterpreted as anger and that is a bad thing. The reason is that WW will do anything and everything to keep from making me mad. That is because she believes that, if I get mad, I may make her leave (IMO). In reality that is far from the truth but she lives with her own paranoia. The funny thing is that the only thing that truly will get me mad are continued phone calls to OM and that is the one thing she can't stop so she does everything else in her power to allow herself that one little luxury.

What gets me tiredest is the occasional regression into the thoughts and feelings of loneliness. I love WW still. She does not love me. I miss the love and wonder whether I am ever going to find love again with someone. I want to. Falling out of love with WW is a real risk and the longer she keeps the A going, the greater the risk becomes. I will just keep going and be patient and, every so often, fall into one of my CI's but then get back on course. I know I can't stay in the situation indefinitely. Right now I am okay but that is only because of the strength and courage I get from this forum. I have very limited support outside (except for ToddAC).

WW and I have MC session tomorrow. I will bring up that I think WW is still in contact with OM. I think that is the best and safest place to do it. It will show WW what I am feeling without being a LB. If she is still in contact, she can admit it (good in that it helps reestablish trust) or deny it (good in that she will have to swallow another lie and make her feel even worse about herself). If MC thinks NC is broken, it will force WW back into IC with no excuses because she will have to schedule the appointment then and there. I don't see a real downside to telling MC that.

Myrta,

Yes I love WW. Yes I want DD's to have the family that I never had. Yes I don't want WW to ruin her life. I would still trade my life for hers without hesitation if that need ever arose (and it could here). I am not sure I will ever be happy again but self-denial comes easy for me because my mother raised me that way (I love you Mother, if you read this).

Oh and ToddAC,

You are a good man. I'll respond to your email in just a bit. I hope all is going well on Plan B but you know I will always be here for you.

Traicionado-aka-CI---You know,,,its okay to get angry once in a while and show your wife. It will do you good. Stanley and I had big blowouts that helped us a lot. For him to get everything out of his chest, for me to see his anger and hurt,,it was good. I know is not recommended in MB to LB ,its not normal to be always walking in "eggshells" watching everything you say, filtering your thoughts before they come out of your mouth in order not to hurt the WS. Its just not normal to be that way, after such blow in your life.

I am going to have to agree with Believer, that your wife is similar to me. I, too, did not want to make my husband angry. I felt that I was walking in "eggshells" I did not want to upset him, fire him up in the wrong way. So everytime I saw him indifferent, or weird, or angry, I would tentatively asked him what was wrong with him. I was in such fear of him leaving me, of him getting tired of me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Gemela knows that is n ot all paradise,,come on, of course she knows that. How can it be paradise after what she did? If she seems to you like she is trying to "sweep everything under the rug" is because she wants this affair to dissapear from your mind. But it is impossible to make it dissapear, because it did happened. But Gemela can pretend everything is allright (she is doing that) Traicionado...this is big!! Gemela wants to vanish this from your life!! I appeared to be more collected than what I was in front of Stanley. Because I wanted to encourage him, to carry on like it was all normal between us. But HE knew and I knew it was not!!

I know it feels very lonely for you right now, because your wife is not fully participating like you want her to. But things will improve between both of you. When you say you love her "still" it appears like your love is less now. Is it? Do you feel you love her less? Is she killing your love? Or is just your lonely thoughts, your craving for the love of your wife that is making you talk like that? I hope is the latter.

Tomorrow in the MC bring up everything that bothers you. YOu have a good referee to watch both your words. Are you both going the full session? In our case,the first visits were together, then one week him, and then the next me. Then together again, and so forth. It worked out perfect. Because there were things that my husband did not want to address yet in front of me, and viceversa. I hope you have a good session!!

You are a very good man, strong and well put together. YOu will get thru this, other had and other will. Your mom raised a good human being and you will do the right thing, I am sure.

By the way, why do you want that song so badly? Who is the artist?

Myrta

If you believe in the concept of Dr. Harley's love bank, then yes she is absolutely killing my love for her by every action and inaction. That is beyond question based on his premise. She is continually withdrawing from the bank and not depositing so yes she is either intentionally or unintentionally killing my love for her.

Unfortunatly for her, if that is her goal, she is trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. She might eventually do it but it will be exhausting work.

Your projected attitude for Gemela is reinforcing because it is my "best guess" as to what she is doing. Either I am right or you are taking advantage of my inexperience but either way it reinforces my opinion. It is unfortunate that her fear of my response might end up being the very thing that provokes what she is trying to avoid. You said eggshells - I said mine field. That may seem like the same thing but it is not. I have been in mine fields and I have stepped on an egg. The difference is degree. I choose to think of mine field because, in my mind, the consequences are far more serious than breaking an egg. Maybe I am wrong but that is my feeling.

MOre than once Stanley told me that I was emptying his love bank. And that upset me, everytime he said it. I knew I was doing just that, but it still bothered me to hear it from his mouth. But you know....his love bank was so sooooooooooo full from before the Affair, that it never got empty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No, I am not taking advantage of your inexperience, because I am too. I am fairly new at this, compare with other posters here, with thousands of posts and many years here. I just see lots of similarities in her behaviour and mine.

Mine fields, egg shells....hmm...Well, to me, egg shells broken all over the place ,is a big task..the clean up,etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> So,thats why I compare it to egg shells.

By the way, you did not tell me about the song you want so much!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I can find no evidence that OM is calling here.


Unfortunately some WW and OM become more astute in their game of deception after d-day. It is not that WW is a horrendous person, but, if she is still foggy--------it will be “the end justifies the means” once again.

As I said-------it is VERY HARD to go cold turkey. Ideally, the WW should work this out with the BH. There was a case here in MB where the BH actually allowed the WW to meet OM in person in the living room of their home while he waited patiently in the kitchen. All of this so WW could dump OM with the so-called closure.

BTW, I need to clarify something about those intense love feelings during the affair that generate all the deceitful behavior. They are so intense that the affair partners behave like drug addicts. As you know-------a drug addict will do anything to get a fix.

One more thing about the intense love feelings. These feelings are built on air. SO soon after d-day and NC the WW should see on her own that the idea of eloping with OM is illogical. Generally many OMs only provide the EN of admiration. Obviously in real life a man must provide many more ENs. So in the end those intense love feelings are illogical.



She could have another secret cell phone hidden away. That is a real possibility but finding it would be almost impossible and a major LB.

I disagree! Many WW will make the BH believe that it is an LB to question contact. They will say you are love busting even while they talk to OM on the side.

Talking to OM is deadly because it causes the WW to go into perennial withdrawal. I would do whatever it takes to ensure NC.

Gemela will complain and say you are treating her like a prisoner and that she has no freedom. However, Gemela needs to understand that if she avoids working in the marriage she runs the risk that you will fall out of love with her.

Lets face it------infidelity is the mother of all love busters. You are not going to be motivated to fix the marriage forever. In this regard------I can say that Myrta was very motivated to fix the marriage.

The reason is that WW will do anything and everything to keep from making me mad. That is because she believes that, if I get mad, I may make her leave (IMO).

Sounds like Myrta. And you want to know something? During this time OM was talking to Myrta and telling her that I was planning to divorce her and that she should go with him. DO you know how smooth these OMs are? THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN WORK IN THE MARRIAGE WITH CONTACT.


Falling out of love with WW is a real risk and the longer she keeps the A going, the greater the risk becomes.

Does Gemela know this? She is taking a major risk.

Difference is if you break an egg shell, you can always clean up the egg shells. If you set off the mine, well....

On the other hand, some mines can't be set off by us. I was in one place and a Kuwaiti engineer was showing me he had found an anti-tank mine. It was BIG. I said "hey, cool mine but I think I'll just get going now". He said "you can't set this off" and proceeded to hit the top of the mine as hard as he could - repeatedly. He was right. There wasn't any need to be afraid of that mine (as long as you are not in a tank of course).

And for any newly found BS I want to say something. My first spin on Plan A was that I had to tread very carefully. There is only one right way and a million wrong ways. That was a wrong assumption. There is no one right way. The only wrong thing you can do is be indecisive. It is not wrong to take no action. As I have said clearly before, no action and inaction are no where near the same thing. Inaction is deadly to the R and M. No action is often required and is the hardest thing (for me) to do. Knowing when to take no action is a trial and error process full of adventure.

I wish I knew why I want that song so much. It is complicated but, if I can get it, it would make me very happy and be very distracting for a while. I am that way with music. Don't know why.

So Stan-ley,

Do I turn the house upside down? I am capable.

Do I turn the house upside down? I am capable.

I asked and I asked. Eventually Myrta told me. I would not take no for an answer.

Traicionado...I still think you are very tired. You sound different , you sound like you are giving up, like you are losing hope. And thats the last thing you should do. There is a lot of hope in your situation.

I dont see no inaction from your part. I think you are doing a lot in your marriage, because you want to recover what you think you have lost.

No, I dont think you should turn the house upside down to find out if Gemela is still in contact. Look at her straight in the eye, and ask her if she still in contact. She will get nervous, she will get fidgety..you will know, I am sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So basically I get to have no enjoyment out of this at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Did I mention I forgot the shoes she has in storage in the USA? I can think of the 5 pairs of Harley boots, the shoes I brought her all the way from Canada for the wedding because she saw them in a bridal magazine (which she has never worn once - it was raining that day), and a few others. She has a lot of shoes. I only mention this because her favorite hiding place is in her shoe boxes.

Maybe I am tired. I am on day two and the final day of CI.

If I had given up, I wouldn't post. That is when you will know I have given up.

You know, that is really loaded. The first double negative becomes a positive and the last part "what you think you have lost" can be interpreted a lot of different ways. Put that in the context of what is lost is lost forever. You can never go back to the M that was before the A. You make it sound like I am chasing a pipe dream. I am guessing that is not what you meant. I am interpreting your meaning as I haven't really lost anything even though I may believe I have - it was never really gone. That is how I will read it unless you want to change my mind. I am not sure I agree with it in its entirety but I will accept your point.

Oh,oh,,,,sorry if I was misunderstood. You did loose a lot, I was talking about the love of your wife. You did not loose that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

No, you cannot go back to how the marriage was before. It is a different "ball game" now. For sure. I dont want to change your mind. HOw can I do that!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I am just giving you my oppinion and take on Gemela, because I was once a WW, I was once in her place. I am in a far better place now, thank God.

"Chasing a pipe dream"? I dont know what that means....sorry. Maybe you can explain that one.

Again, I tell you, that you are definetely different. Different thoughts are going thru your mind, bothering you a lot. Talk to Gemela, open up how you feel to her. Talk to us, we are here for you. To try to help you.

We love music here too, by the way. Big fans of rock...Beatles,Doors,etc.etc. Just last night we went to see a cover band, playing like the Doors,really fun!!

I don't think I missed anything. I think I got your meaning right and I am still on the page with you. Words are powerful. I got an email once about this situation and the use of one word sent me over the edge. The word was meant in sarcasm but I took it as truth. One simple word...

Yes we are all a bit sensitive. Don't worry - I am not giving up. One movie quote and one TV quote. Anyone can guess the references.

First quote: "I am NOT ... leaving ... my wingman."

if anybody tries to get in the way of my M to gemela, second quote:

"I pity the fool!"

I still think you misunderstood me Traicionado. I know after having an affair, a lot is lost. But for sure, in my case, my love for Stanley is stillh here. I did a stupid thing with a stupid man, but I still love my husband. And I am sure Gemela still loves YOU, so that was not lost!!!

And I know you are not referring to me, but to make sure. I did not say anything to you in a sarcastic manner. Ok?

I am glad you are not giving up, you should not. I will write you tomorrow, so you can pass my email to Gemela. To see if she can open up to me...I want to help you in any way I can.

Hopefully now, we are still in "the same page" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I didn't want to mention any names but he is aware of it and the problem it caused me so, to keep you from wondering and hoping not to offend him, the email with the confusing word was from someone in Iceland (I hope you don't live in Iceland BTW - not that it wouldn't be good - for you, that is). (And I did say email - not post).

Yes we are still on the same page. WW just called and wanted to know how I am doing. I reminded her she had an invitation to play golf with the girls this AM. She had forgotten. Told me she still has much to do to get ready for Bday party. I told her golf was more important and that she needed to get out with the girls. I would stay up all night tonight and finish the gift boxes if she would agree to take time out to play golf. Hope she goes.

I think I will still wait to mention the contact doubts during MC tomorrow. Seems like the most neutral environment. Failing that, I guess I can ask her periodically about calls but I thought it would be considered an LB. Darn I wish I had more experience at this BS stuff! It would be sooo helpful.

cc46,

Don't give up on me please. You have great insight. I am so glad this topic came up because it is the one serious issue on the table at the moment and the one that gives me the most doubts. I just like this so much I have to repeat it. Strother Martin described WW and my situation best in the movie "Cool Hand Luke". he said: "What we have here is a failure to communicate".

If WW were to come to me and hand me a cell phone and say I could have it because she no longer needed it, I would never say a word (well - maybe "thanks").

Hey Mom,

Thanks for the "Rocky" CD. Passed customs and everything. I'll put "Gonna Fly Now" on the iPod tonight.

Hey Traicionado, I haven't given up on you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I was getting my beauty sleep! We're in different parts of the world, remember? I'm in South America.

Stanley has given you good advice about the contact: look at Gemela in the eyes and ask her. If her answer doesn't sound sincere, ask her again.

Another important thing: you shouldn't walk on eggshells or minefields! It's OK and not an LB to show how hurt you are. You should tell Gemela how things make you feel. Otherwise she will probably think everything is OK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think that in MC you should say everything you are feeling, all the doubts you have, etc.

I have to go to work and have no possibility of writing to MB there. I think you are very strong and love your wife very much. I would still recommend you write to Dr. Harley. Everything becomes very simple, logical and obvious when it comes from the "horses mouth". The rest is working on oneself.

BTW another thing I don't agree with you is that your plan A is only avoiding LBs. That is the ONE THING that should NOT be plan A but the NEW BETTER YOU! From now on LBs are no longer part of you.

Your plan A now is exposure if necessary, a little patience, and confronting Gemela with your feelings (with no LBs, not an easy thing to do, I'm sure, but you can do it). Confronting was one thing I didn't do well and plan on learning as soon as I get a chance. But you have to confront her.

Have to run now, but will be back in about 8 hours.

cc46,

I know Plan A is the new and improved me. I am just fuzzy on some of the no-no's not permitted during Plan A. More specifically - some things I believe are LB's may not actually be LB's. I don't fully understand the guidelines or limits of Plan A. I will research in SAA though.

I don't think I feel like eggshells or minefields today. I did feel that way very early on in the process and I just wanted to relate to people in this process that they need not tread with fear.

My take on plan A:

I would use plan A behavior for a WW that wants the marriage and is actively trying to end the affair.

If WW insists on continuing the affair then IMHO, the best plan is to throw her out and inform the entire family that the marriage is ending because W was unfaithful. I don’t get this plan A where BH pretends tom be nice when inside he is more like a ticking atomic bomb. Supposedly this nice behavior is going to entice the WW back. Perhaps this works when the BH was behaving poorly pre-affair. But, there are times when the BH was behaving quite nicely pre-affair. How in the world can anyone improve on that?

So my advice is as follows:

If Tracionado was a good H and dad before affair there is very little ground to gain by trying to fix something that is not broken.

What I told Myrta post d-day was that I would work on the marriage only if she was 100% committed. Otherwise the marriage was over. I have the sensation that gemela may respond to that approach. The nice Traicionado approach 24/7 has caused a lot of confusion in Gemela. I think she was probably expecting something else. Within this context the CI maneuver may work well.

In addition----because of the age difference I believe Gemela expects a firm viewpoint and direction from Traicionado. I would demand complete clarity at all times as well as a detailed summary of her day including frequent phone calls to report her activities.

WWs can be quite tricky------Myrta complained to the high heavens when I told her I needed her passwords. The funny thing is that she always knew my passwords.

I agree with Stanley. I believe Gemela is VERY CONFUSED and she's not seeking help here at MB. Maybe she has help from someone else...

Good luck with MC tomorrow

cc46,

I have no idea who is helping her.

Stan-ley,

I understand about accountability but I am not sure I can do it. If she is up to anything, I am 99% certain it is going on outside the house or else she has a hidden cellphone.

Update:

Well I feel another whacking coming on but here goes anyway. Yesterday I went home and helped WW with the Bday gift boxes. I think she was ready to give up and try something else but between the two of us, we got it done and it all looks good. She did play golf yesterday with three ladies and played very badly. She quit after 4 holes and said she needs us to go to the driving range and work on her swing (I am her coach). Talk is pleasant and fine and then somewhere in the course of the afternoon I reminded her we had MC today. She reminded me that today is early dismissal for DD1 so she gets out at the same time our MC session would be ending. This was a problem for her and said it was not worth going to MC. She told me to move it to this morning knowing full well it is not that simple. I got mad and told her she could do whatever she wanted but I was going alone to MC. I told her she was always looking for excuses to avoid doing the things we could do to work on the M. She was always busy playing golf or doing something else that she could not find time to go to IC. She found ways to get out of MC, etc. It was obvious to me that she was not interested in R in the least.

I went upstairs and watched something on TV. Who knows what. Then I turned the lights out and started to go to sleep. She got in bed a little later and asked to hold me. I let her but did not reciprocate – LB I know. We went to sleep that way. I think it was when I got up to throw up 1/3 of what was in my stomach that I got back in bed and WW was awake by then. Then I told her I was upset because we never talk. We can't go on pretending that nothing has happened and that it will just go away. I'm upset that she seems to have no interest in doing the things we should be doing like IC, MC, NC, EN survey and, most importantly, communicating. I told her I was convinced she was still in contact with OM because she was way too happy. She denied it. I said the way she is acting is not the way someone acts when they have lost the love of her life so the only logical conclusion is that she hasn't lost anything. She insisted that she was unhappy. We agreed that is something we have in common. I reiterated that this thing would not go away on its own. If she was just waiting to eventually get over her feelings for OM, that could take years and I was not interested in waiting years. If she keeps this up, she might decide she really wants the M but the danger is I might decide I no longer want it. Right now I still love her and still want to R the M for the DD's and for her (WW). But she is progressively killing off that desire. If she is thinking I am just going to sit patiently by until she makes up her mind, she is mistaken. This is more or less where the conversation stopped. We were both still for a few minutes and then she reached over and started holding me again.

The rest of the night was a mess. DDs are sick again vomiting with stomach cramps so they were in and out of bed with us. So am I. I got up about 2:00 and emptied out the remainder of my stomach. When I got up this AM, I got back in bed and held WW for a while. Now WW is sick. WW and DDs are home in bed. I came into work because I have no choice. I have my recycle bin by my side just in case. I still have MC (now IC) at 1:00.

It was not my intention to bring up NC but the busted MC was just too convenient. WW does not need to pick up DD1 from the school. We live right across the street from the school. If WW had gone to MC, she would have gotten home exactly the same time as DD1 if DD1 had walked. It was an easy solution but WW went straight to canceling the appointment.

No lumber whacks from me. I think you are justified in what you did. She is avoiding MC whether she does not want to face the music or to take the opportunity to call OM. Neither is good. It's been six months and she is still not committed to R.

What's your next move?

My next move is to throw up. My head is pounding. I can't think beyond that. I guess I will go to IC today. Can't hurt. The CI is over. That's good. I guess I could ransack the house looking for a cellphone?

Can I be honest? She really does sound sincere when she says she has not talked to OM. The main reason I suspect contact is that I DON'T see withdrawal. I don't think the cipralex is THAT good.

I almost forgot: during our discussion last night I did tell her it bothered me very much that she was getting marriage advice from someone who was and is still involved in a 10 year affair. I told her I didn't think that an adulteress was in the best position to give marriage advice. I did tell her it bothered me very much that she was listening to SIL so much.

I also told her that I did not like her definition of family. In her mind, family was SIL, FIL, MIL, tias, tios, primas, primos, and her casa was back in Mexico. I told her my family was her and DDs and my house was wherever we were together. I told her I loved my mom, sisters, family but when we get married, we move our priorities to wife and kids.

Sorry - ToddAC just reminded me of that.

traicionado,

I am reasonably sure that throwing up is a LB. Don't do it.

I would turn the house upside down to see if there is a hidden cell phone. I did this myself and felt so much better when I did not find one. Then, that weekend, I opened her glove box to get the tire pressure gauge out to check her tires. There was the cell phone.

I don't know about your WW, but mine can lie with the best of them. Before her A, it was obvious when she was lying.

Traic, there's withdrawal. Believe me.

Involuntary reflexes cannot be considered a LB. This is why I always carry a bottle of syrup of Ipecac with me whenever I get called into my boss's office for a private meeting - just in case I get fired.

Nobody takes getting fired well. Okay you could cry and they might not hold that against you but screaming and shouting or, worse, getting a gun and shooting up the place (or as a good friend calls it - "going postal" - I just love that) are NOT going to look good on a resumé and will likely diminish your chances of getting a good reference.

If you are getting fired, just as soon as the boss turns his head, swig a little Ipecac and vomit all over his desk. You get a little revenge and there is no way it can be held against you as it is an involuntary reflex.

Throwing up ON WW may be considered a LB but it depends on the context. Last weekend during our Pub Run, I did throw up on WW's feet but I think she actually liked it in a certain way. Made her feel like she was caring for me.

No, the jury is out on vomiting as a LB.

Now I am worried about you.

Hey KiwiJ,

If there is, I cannot see it but I think Myrta may have had the key. For some reason I think Myrta understands gemela.

I wish that gemela would communicate more with me. There is nothing to fear. I won't end the M because she is sad for the OM. The irony is that I might end the M if I am convinced she is not. She should be sad for OM. That would be "normal" behavior. The STBWW I married would be.

Note: so as not to confuse, at the time I married gemela, she was neither W nor WW but STBWW so I wrote that as a time-sensitive comment. Now she has dropped the STB, gone from W to WW, given me the STD and, hopefully, on the way to FWW. I will give her an "F" for her performance so far but not one she that can add to her acronym.

Historical note: At the time I married WW in the church, she was legally W. Complicated Mexican laws...

I am not saying that vomiting is a great Plan A strategy - I am simply saying that, if you have to throw up, try your best to do it in a non-LB'ish kind of way.

Myrta sure does have the key. She understands a young Mexican woman and her culture. I'm so pleased she accepted my call for help.

I have also been reading gemela's posts which is why I said what I said.

Traic, you're such a good guy. You're intelligent and funny, but realistic, which is a huge plus when dealing all this crap and you deserve a good marriage.

KiwiJ,

So if I need to put this M on a resumé, I guess I can count on you for a good reference? I promise to keep the Ipecac in my pocket!

No, seriously. I have not given up on gemela yet. I don't believe I have found the right combination of Plan A just yet though. I think that there should be a Latina version of SAA which accounts for BT's and CI's. I think (and gemela has told me once) that I may have been too nice to her.

Regardless, Plan A has been good for me personally. There were things I could have changed and now have. It is funny because I see so many families all around and our (WW and I) impression of the H is that he is a big jerk. I was never as bad as most - even WW will admit to that. During the A, she frequently compared me to other H's she knows and I always came out well on top according to her. But they are not my benchmark. I am my own standard. I am glad I found SAA and Plan A. I really like me even if WW doesn't. That is just her loss.

Traicionado,

You did great. No LBs in my opinion.

I didn't say she WAS talking to anyone, I was wondering who she was talking to. You have the impression it's SIL.

Do you think Gemela is strong enough to keep everything to herself?

At least something happened. The vomiting aside, maybe we'll now get some reaction from her.

Hope you all get better. Vomiting is usually good for you, in the sense that it's very efficient for getting rid of whatever is hurting you but it can be very exhausting. Try not to exagerate it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I really doubt it's an LB, but maybe I'll ask Dr. Harley, because it's exactly what I fear I will do if I see WH!

Today's my 20th wedding anniversary. I'll make it a pecial day for myself.

MC cum IC was a bust. Computer glitch so no appointment. All that for nothing.....

MC just called and will reschedule for next week and let me know.

WW is sick. I am too but she is worse.

Is she strong enough? Don't know. I know she is strong enough to try. MIL would be her role model and she is one tough ....

I think if WW does try to hold it inside, she will eventually have a breakdown - but it could take quite a while.

Happy Anniversary! Maybe some day we will reach 20....

I'm sorry you are all sick. Sometimes everything seems to go wrong...

I'll have a happy anniversary, I feel happy. Thank you.
I think you have a good chance to get to 20.

Traicionado...so sorry you are all sick....it seems you got a stomach virus, probably the girls got it in school and brought it to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Hope you get better soon!!

About Gemela,,and withdrawal....she is going thru it, just like Kiwi says. She is just not showing, she might be embarrass, does not want to hurt you more(just like I was) or any other reason. But it seems she is going thru withdrawal within herself. Dont be so worry if she isnot showing you the "typical signs". She might not be so expressive as to show pain, or discomfort in front of others, especially that kind of "pain"!!

Traicionado...it was sooooooooooo embarrassing for me, for my husband to see me down because of OM. I kept the pain to myself. I remember just a couple of times, that I somewhat showed him my pain for OM. Other than that, I put on a positive,"normal" face in front of him. He thougth at the time, I was not actively working in recovering our marriage, but I surely was!!!

The way she holds you, or shows her concern when you are sick, tells me that she wants you. That she cares and loves you, but please, she must go thru her grieving normal process, even if its in silence.!!

It was a good thing that you talked about your concern with her. You dont have to be so hesitant to talk about what bothers you. And again, its normal to get angry, even if its against "Dr,Harley's" views. Its normal to show anger, dissapointment after finding out an Affair. YOu have to have no hot blood in you, to show the WW always a happy,dont want to hurt you,face. always trying to fill her ENs even if they are behaving like monsters!! Not normal...sorry.

I have seen my husband sadness,anger,LBs,etc,etc, and I have survived!! None of those things killed me..I deserved all of it, after I did what I did. Those displays of his emotions, cleanse his soul and spirit and made him a better husband to me, and me a better wife for him.

Sorry about the mishap with your MC. Hopefully you will have it next week. Anyways, it was a good thing since you are both sick and probably not up to it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Take care.\\

Myrta

Thanks Myrta,

I am not worried about the MC. I have said before that I don't believe in coincidence and this worked out great. If I had gone by myself, I am sure I would have been angry with gemela for not being there. In fact, I really half expected to see her car there when I walked in. On the other hand, I knew that DD2 was home sick and, if gemela had left her alone to go to MC, well I REALLY would have been mad. This was great because bow we will have MC next week or week after for the first time in a long time and I know there is no way that gemela will miss it. It worked out great.

Everything you say about gemela makes sense. Even when some people were telling me her actions proved she was still in contact, I always wondered if it might not be something else. I know her very well and she is a very strong person. She is patterned after MIL and I don't think MIL has ever complained once in her life to anyone about anything. I have to admit, MIL is my role model too. In fact, several months ago when the only thing keeping on this journey was DDs and the hope that they could have a complete family, I always remembered MIL and her plight and all she suffered for her children. Geez - talk about guilt.

But I have changed during this time and now I do have hope for something better. Time will tell. I think gemela needs to talk to someone. To be honest, I truly wish she would go to confession but maybe it is too soon. I am not saying the padre will be much help but she needs to confess this for herself. That would be huge. I don't think she yet understands the value of MB. My hope was to get her here just to vent initially and then maybe start to exchange ideas. I still hope she does that. Our weekend starts tonight so I will try to get gemela to post some more. It is hard to get her to post at the best times of the day when others are online. Hopefully, once she begins to realize the value of MB, she will adjust her schedule a bit.

In spite of Plan A and LB's and DJ's, I think maybe it is good that gemela sees me mad sometimes. The reason I say that is that I seem to be dealing with anger much differently than I used to. I think I deal with it in a much "healthier" way. I used to be slow to anger but, once there, took me a while to get over it. Now I just get mad and get over it. I have also taken a much different view of life in general since coming to Saudi. It is also good that the company puts family first in everything. We don't get rewarded for working extra hours - we get reprimanded. If we can't do our job in 8 hours, we are just not being very efficient. We manage 1/4 of the world's oil reserves and at 4:00PM we become a ghost town. Simply amazing. Anyway, I get to finally spend time with DD's. When I was in Dubai, I usually did not get home in time to even tuck them into bed - and now Dubai would be far worse than it was then.

I don't think I will be looking for any cellphones. If I find that contact is still occurring, I think I will call OM's parents again just to make sure they understand what is going on - assuming they take my call. If not, I have other - maybe better - ways to let them know. I will also ask all of you whether I should expose to FIL although I really hate to do that except as a last resort. I don't know why he is this way but gemela is his favorite of the two girls. He always treated SIL as a second class citizen. Gemela is his little angel so I would hate to tarnish her halo for him.

I agree with Myrta. I really wish you could have seen her posts very early in her career here. She was quite fascinating, and a real spitfire. Her husband was going crazy.

I think your wife doesn't post here because she doesn't want to hear from people who tell her to forget the OM and save her marriage. That is just the way these WS's are for awhile.

traicionado,

As you know, I recently exposed WW to FIL. WW is also his favorite daughter of five. It crushed him. According to sons, she is now avoiding FIL at all costs. It was a calculated risk on my part. My situation has some similarities to yours and some differences. I refused to follow Plan A while WW was still seeing OM. She had no remorse. Telling a Latin FIL is a huge step but one that I saw as essential because WW was starting to loose her sons in the process. I will advise that you keep it as dry powder for now.

believer,

I saw this very early on when she would seek out friends and family to explain her sitch hoping that she could get people to say it was okay to run off with OM. She selectively contacted friends with problem marriages and almost all of them told her to forget the OM and get her head out of her culo and get back to her marriage. She always stopped talking to them afterward. She desperately sought out enablers and found them few and far between.

I made it very clear to her when I first suggested she post that she was not going to find enablers and that MB was pro-marriage. I told her the only reason for her to post is so that she can share what she is feeling with people who have been in her situation and can help her understand what she is going through - so that she can understand that she is not as alone as she feels. I don't think she yet understands that MB can help her. That is what I was told anyway. I don't read her posts so have no idea what she says. I am not even tempted any more.

That is how they are.

It was really refreshing to read how your company values the family. That is very unusual. Oh, sure, lots of places say they value it, but their policies contradict it. They encourage long hours, company trips away from home, without spouses, staying in hotels, etc.

I'm sensitive to these things because my sister's marriage was broken up by her adultery. She was required to go from Oregon to San Francisco for 3 months of training, leaving her husband at home. They all stayed in a hotel, and dinners, drinks together, etc. was encouraged.

Traicionado....just got back from a ballet......Sleeping Beauty with the ballet of Moscow. REally beautiful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Stanley was falling asleep, but he still enjoyed it too.

I am glad you are seeing such positive out of the "fiasco" of the MC, Thats they way to be!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I am sure like you say, Gemela is a strong woman. And she could be really having it tough, but not showing it. And if she has such good role model...then maybe she is that way too. She can make it thru this with flying colors, just like me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I have three sisters, older than me and one brother older too, and none of them knows about my Affair. I would die if they would find out!! And if my parents knew, especially my dad..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I would want to be swallowed by the earth!! I could not look at him or them on the eyes. We never disclosed to anyone, no need to, since the affair finished right on DD!!
Traicionado...it would so embarrassing for Gemela for her dad to know...especially if she is his favorite! He probably has her on a pedestal. Just like my parents have me.

I agree with you, that Gemela should see you mad once in a while.Just normal behaviour, you have to get mad and show it
otherwise, you would explode. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And also when the anger comes out, you dont hold the ugly resentment inside of you, that eventually will kill the marriage for good.

I dont think she has any cell phone...The OM here, offered me one, but I never accepted it. I was to scared for my husband to find out. I got tempted, not going to deny it, but did not do it. Because I wanted my marriage to get better and be recovered completely. So dont worry about that for now..

Saudi Arabia sounds like a good place to be!! Sounds cool, fun! You know, I have three friends from Saudi, that I used to visit a lot. They all lived together with their husbands and kids,because like you say, family is extremely important to them. They used to tell me, that in Saudi all the families live close by, or with each other,forever!! Really pretty way to be. They had great ,vivacious personalities. They would invite me to parties only for "women"and they would "transform" into these femme fatales". They would dress up, put so much makeup, jewerly.It was such a contradiction of their usual way to dress. It was crazy!! I have not visit with them for some years now,,,they were going back to their country. They were here for their studies. It was nice...they would tell me that I was their sister too.

By the way I dont live in Iceland...I live in Washington,Dc!!

Myrta

Career??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But yes I was a bad,confused WW. But thanks to some posters here, I made it..Especially you Believer! YOu helped me and encouraged me so much. Thank you!

I think Gemela does not post here, because she feels there is no need to. I did not want to post at the beginning too. Stanley had to tell me,many many times. Then I started to read some of the things posters will say, and that got me angry and pushed me to post....to defend myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

Oh Myrta - you were a classic. I used to love reading your posts! I especially liked it when you and JL would get into it, and when you would throw folks off your threads. You are a good woman, and have a lot of spunk.

Thanks for passing it on and helping Traicionado. I do think you are right in advising him not to expose it to his FIL. See - you changed my mind - I used to tell your husband to expose, but that is before I understood.

Sounds like you have gotten a good snapshot of Arab women in general. That is typical.

Arab families tend to live together in multiple generations. Those that can afford it build huge housing compounds and keep almost everyone in it. Arabs take care of their families. Not like the USA (where I am from) where you turn 18 and the ties begin to be cut. If I had to live like an Arab, I would go insane because I was not brought up that way. They are brought up that way and it is good to see. I admire them for that. If my mother had to live with her mother all her life, one would have been murdered and the other in prison. Can't say which was which. (and Mother, I know you are reading this and you can't deny it!)

I wish I lived in Iceland. On the other hand, it might be difficult because of the language. I am guessing Icelandic must be one of the hardest languages on earth to learn because only about 300,000 people speak it. One of the only harder languages must be that one spoken in South Africa that only 23 people speak (according to Discovery Channel). Chinese must be really easy to learn because over 1 billion people speak it. Think I'll move to Shekou. I used to think Spanish was hard but on our last trip to Mexico I saw little kids speaking it. If a two year old can speak it, it can't be that hard. On the other hand, a language with only 23 speakers must be really limiting on the job market. For example, not much need for a network TV anchor, is there?

WW and DDs are much better now. They picked me up from work and we went to finalize arrangements for DDs Bday this Friday. The DD1 had asked to go play "golf" which means driving range so we went home and changed. WW just put on her oxford golf shoes with her grey t-shirt and flare bottom mid-calf jeans. I didn't care but I asked her if she had seen herself in a mirror in a joking way. She replied "I KNOW! but I was in a hurry!". I was just teasing her but she was upstairs and down I swear in less than thirty seconds in black slacks and a Burberry shirt all matching (and laughing). [I knew she would change. That is an easy button to push.] We got the cart out and the neighbor saw her and said hello. When we left she said "thank goodness I changed clothes! How embarassing if he had seen me in my jeans!".

We got in 4 holes before dark and two holes in the dark and then went home. We learned tonight that only the back nine holes is lit.

We had something to eat (I had not eaten since yesterday - a few saltines as I remember) and then got ready for bed. She was on her side and I on mine with DD1 in between us. After a few minutes she told DD1 to go wash her hands and brush her teeth. As soon as DD1 got up, she moved over to my side and put her head on my chest to watch TV. Friends was on and it was a multi-part episode where they were playing a "what if" thing. Monica was fat, Ross was married, etc. Anyway, We are watching and Rachel meets Joey the famous actor and gets invited to his apartment and drinks too much. Wakes up next day saying she was so wrong to have gone there, she is a married woman, she almost had an affair, had to leave, etc. It was only then that it occurred to me that the program was about infidelity. I usually can't watch programs about it any more which significantly limits my program options. I generally have a strong reaction to it and now I was really afraid I was going to have one about this program but WW was still holding me so I just kept very still. Oddly enough, It didn't really trigger much.

Rachel goes back home and finds her dentist husband in bed with another woman so goes back to the coffee house to find Joey to have a revenge affair but finds Ross. She talks to Ross and I don't remember what all she says but she is blaming men in general for being unfaithful by nature. This is the part I do remember. Ross says something like "some men will do anything to make their marriage a success". I wasn't even sure WW was listening but she turned her head to look at me and says "is that true, honey?" and kisses me on the cheek and then hugs me tight.

We sent DDs off to bed and she went and tucked them in. I was watching American Idol. She got back in bed and grabbed my hand and was holding it. I wasn't wearing my Diesel boxer shorts or anything. Just minding my own business but after a few minutes she attacked me.

Today will be a quiet day so I will try to get gemela to post (and maybe even read some of yours).

I'm glad you are all better and somethings is happening....

BTW do you think Gemela reads your posts here?

Traicionado....I can see things improving so much between you and Gemela. She is getting close to you, looking for your warmth and strenght <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I am so happy for you, and so proud that another WW will be a FWW soon! She is on her way to recovery with you. She wants her marriage, she wants her husband. Did you liked that she attacked you and snuggled to you? I hope you did!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How many hours or days ahead are you from United States? Seems like lots from the way you talk.
So how many kids are you having for daughter's Birthday party? How old are the girls?

Is a good thing, you did not get triggered with "Friends". I think those triggers are funny, sometimes a person gets them, sometimes not. Depends on the "mood" or raport with the spouse at the time. My husband used to get them a lot at the beginning, but hardly any more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Glad you are all feeling better!!

Myrta

P.S. I hope Gemela posts tonight!

Myrta,

Let me see...did I like that she snuggled? Absolutely. Did I like that she attacked me? Yes in that she took that initiative but I could also just have easily gone without. I have said before that it is not always easy for me right now but it was obvious that she was not just going through the motions. I can tell and so can the neighbors. It is not that I am not attracted to her and it is not that I am so bugged about the A. I don't know what it is to be honest. It does feel strange to be a man who is not interested in SF with the most beautiful woman on the planet. What is wrong with me?

Dhahran is at GMT+3 hours and I think right now we are 11 hours ahead of PST, 7 hours ahead of EST. I could be off by an hour because I used to have that math down based on Dubai which is one hour ahead of here but I think that is about right. In the summer that differential shifts by one hour since we never have daylight savings time. Saving daylight in the middle of the desert is not something most people would consider an intelligent thing to do so we never shift the clocks.

Our calendar does shift a bit. The number of days in a month is variable and depends on the appearance of the new moon. According to the Hijrah calendar, this is the year 1427. So, in that sense, we are way behind the USA. Amazing that we even have computers since they won't be invented for another 500 years. The Hijrah year is shorter than the Gregorian year so in approximately 11,069.11 years, the two calendars should exactly match (assuming that the moon is still around then).

We paid for 13 girls. DD1 is 7 and DD2 is 5. Yesterday was the last day of the school trimester so thousands of people are leaving this weekend for repat and many friends will not be here. We are celebrating both together since birthdays are close. WW is also putting less emphasis on the parties which is either because she doesn't care any more or because she is becoming more realistic. We have spent thousands of dollars on some of the birthday parties in the past. I feel like having the best Bday party was almost a competition for WW - no - it WAS a competition. We almost did that this year too in that we almost worked a deal with a local amusement park but I realized that WW was still going to add her own touchs negating the benefit of a prefab party. Even so, this one turned out not to be cheap but it was worth it to see all the personal attention and work that WW put into it. She has spent hours and hours on the gift boxes. She is very artistic and she will get so much praise from all the moms for her work. Next year there will be no party at all. DDs get that horse and, if I want the one without a cough, I have to save my riyals. This is the first year we have not made a piñata. What a relief!

As far as shows about infidelity, if I am sitting alone watching TV (which is not very much) and I see anything about infidelity, I have to change the channel. Because infidelty seems to be so pervasive, I am left with little more than the Discovery Channel which is why I know so much about endangered languages. I prefer to watch programs about animals that are faithful. I can watch programs about eagles, for example but not lions.

I am a little surprised that WW picked up on the theme. Her English is much better than it used to be. You can tell when she laughs at certain humor. I think that is the hardest part to pick up in any new language and she now laughs at pretty much all the right places.

cc46,

I don't know if WW reads my posts are not. My best guess would be not. I have never said she couldn't but she said she would not. Did not make her swear however. I just said I might prefer that she didn't and she agreed. I don't think she gives them any importance which is good for me. So far I have not felt the need to temper anything I have said since I registered her. Posting here has helped me so much. I hope she will eventually see the benefit for her.

I do want to thank everyone for the warm reception she seems to have gotten. I have not heard that anyone is whacking her with 2x4's and I do have a trusted friend who will tell me if that is happening but absolutely nothing else about her posts. I just asked him to sick a Mod on anyone who tried this early in the game because I don't want anyone to chase gemela off.

I know my mother reads my posts (BTW, Mother - I'll DHL the check for the package on Saturday but can I ask you the favor of getting me another ice skate bag? Do you remember the "penguin" bag? I want another bag from that same website but I want the pink bunny rabbit bag. There is no hurry but the penguin was a big hit so DD2 now needs a bag - even though she has no skates to put in it). Did I tell you DD2 is riding without training wheels? We have video. I'll convert and post it on the website next weekend. Rollerblades are next. Maybe that's what I'll do today. Rollerblades.

dewt,

If you're still around, the tire swing is still there buddy! Lot's of frustrated would-be thieves though! I told you I was just as smart as any six-year old. Wait a minute...is that right?

Oh yeah, man... I've been here...

Just... quietly...

...

Waiting in the bushes for one 'o' them dang theives...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, the truth is that there is such chaos in my life these days that if I tried to tell you about it, It would take a long time and I'd have to change bits 'cause when you get it all at once it's quite a tad on the unbelievable side.

It would seem that my Life is being propelled through the somethingorother of existance by a exceptionally medium sized improbability drive. Its output is being boosted by a fairly inexpensive upgrade which allows small crystallized portions of pure chaos to be introduced directly into the main reaction chamber. This of course, is a monumentally unwise thing to do. Which of course, would explain why it exists.

There may or may not have been an instruction manual but if there was, it was in a language that isn't familiar to me. It was glossy and had pretty colors though.

Traicionado, you're doing fine. But it doesn't sound like recovery to me. Maybe after the birthday party Gemela will have time to think. That's all that occurs to me. Just a few more days.

Traicionado.....did you enjoyed having SF with your wife before finding about the Affair? Was it always a good experience ? Anyhow,,,its good that she initiated SF with you and you responded to her. She is obviously trying to convince you,even if she is not saying it, that she is working on the recovery too.

So you are seven hours ahead of us, since we are in the east coast. It seemed like you were light years ahead of us, you were talking about the weekend, when it was like monday here still. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />LOL Maybe I misunderstood..

I dont know....but it sounds kind of excentric the way you described your daughter's birthday parties. A deal with an amusement park? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. That sounds like way too much , unless you are Bill Gates or Oprah, or any other millionare out there. When the kids are little like yours, birthday parties are very important, because they like to invite all their little friends, and classmates. Pinatas,cakes,balloons,maybe a clown,those things are more than enough for them. YOur wife's touch with the surprise bags sounds lovely too. Personal touches like that are nice and cool! Hope their birthdays are beautiful and wonderfull for all of you!

Shows about infidelity are all over the place. Its the favorite theme for programs and movies. Before they went unnoticed but now they are so obvious. But I guess is a normal thing and the movie moguls like to give people what the want.

Myrta

cc46,

It never occurred to me that she has become a FWW. I would expect her to have some feelings of remorse (you'd think) but I don't think she has any. I think she still misses OM and feels like she is sacrificing to stay here in the M.

I am perfectly willing to give more time. At this point, the only real risk is that I may eventually lose interest. So far I am good to go. If I lose interest, Plan B comes into effect. In my Plan B, she goes alone to Mexico to live with MIL, SIL, get a job and see what she wants out of life. I don't think that will happen any time soon unless she refuses to adhere to NC. I am also not actively trying to catch her in contact. If I do catch her, it is because she wants me to.

Is there anything I should be particularly concerned about what a typical WW might do about this time or do you think she will just eventually get through withdrawal given enough time?

I have never been wayward, so I really don;t know. Yet I think if I had been, I would either be feeling very bad because of remorse or very angry at having to give up my soulmate. The reasons don;t matter much because from what I've read waywards have all sorts of weird reason for what they do, so I would have some of that kind.

But Gemela doesn;t seem to be in either of those categories, and her actions are just "normal" as though nothing has happened. That is the impression I get from your posts and from her none posts.

I have no idea what may be going on. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

The mindset of a wayward spouse that is not leaving the marriage is difficult or impossible to understand. From my standpoint-------I would leave the marriage if i was wayward. I cannot understand the wayward people that return. Trying to understand Gemela at this point is futile. I am not even sure gemela has a clue about what is going on with herself. This is a very difficult time for her as she is full of ambivalence and the victim of a divided heart. I don't wish that to my worst enemy.

CC....I am sure Gemela feels both angry and bad because of what she did to her husband. But I am sure she still misses her OM. Just because she is not telling Traicionado. does not mean she is not having those emotions. Another way of dealing with problems and troubles is to shut down to the world. Maybe she is not talking, because she is not ready yet. I am sure she is coming to conclussions and ways out to deal with what she did. She just needs some time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

At the beginning I also did not want to post. But eventually I started to and things did improved a lot. I got a lot of feedback and counseling from veteran posters here. She probably feels embarrass to pour her heart out to strangers...its kind of hard to do at the beginning, especially when you are the "bad guy" of the movie!!

Stanley....you are not in WWs shoes,so you should not say what you would do, or not. No one knows what they will do, until they are in those shoes. Dont you think? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Like I dont know how will I react if I was a BS!!!

First of all Stan-ley, your take on the wayward returning makes sense on the surface so, from my POV which is total BS (i.e. betrayed spouse), I completely understand what you are saying. If a WW decided the marriage was not what she wanted and she found something better - just be done with it. Why wait? On the other hand, what if somebody realizes they made a mistake? I can't say gemela made a mistake (other than violating her marriage vows) - only gemela can ultimately decide whether she made a mistake or not. I guess I am just giving her time and opportunity to come to a conclusion one way or the other. Why I am doing that is a question to which I may never know the answer and am willing to accept, for the moment, that the answer is "42". My behavior is counter-intuitive to me. Maybe the answer isn't 42 - maybe I just still love gemela.

Of all the things I have read on trying to save a marriage, recover from an affair, etc, I think adrianc put it the most eloquently of all when he said "Plan A sucks!". Pretty much captures it I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Actually Plan A is great. If we are able to get through this, I will be so much better off, focused on the M, gemela's EN's, etc. that I will be right on dewt's heals for the Olympic gold for best marriage ever. If the M fails and we D, Plan A has given me time to grieve and reach acceptance. If we had separated 5 months ago, I would have been so much the worse for it. Plan A is a no-lose scenario from the BS perspective even if it doesn't always seem that way. I highly recommend it. Even so adrianc, you are not wrong. Well, yes you are. Plan A is not what sucks - the cause of the need for Plan A (i.e the affair) is what sucks.

Myrta,

I was in a hurry and missed your post earlier so will answer now.

Was SF always a good experience? Yes - for both 99.37% of the time.

7 hours - okay. I find 10-12 hours to be the ideal time difference for communicating with the USA and Mexico. Fits the best with the work and home schedule. Be patient with gemela. I think she will get more used to MB withme. In Islam, Friday is the sabbath so the weekend revolves around it. The Arab world traditionally takes Thursday and Friday as the weekend. As the world as come more financially linked through globalization, it is not entirely convenient to have such a large gap in trading and banking days between countries so many Arab countries have shifted and now take Friday and Saturday as their weekend to allow for one more effective trading day. Saudi is still and will be for the foreseeable future, Thursday and Friday weekend. Monday is "hump" day for us.

I mentioned to gemela about posting last night. The way she responded sounded like she actually felt guilty for not having done it and enthusiastic(?) to post soon. We got finished golfing at 6:00 and played the last four holes in the dark. Fortunately the back nine is lit. Unfortunately the lights point in the wrong direction. I don't know what idiot decided to point them in the direction of the fairway - they are totally useless for helping me find my ball. They should have aimed them toward the darn rough! Gemela was starting to play fairly well again and people were commenting on how good her swing is (she has a great coach - me). She teed off on a par 4 with a narrow wadi about 150 yards in front of the tee box. The shot was not good but straight. It hit 10 yards in front of the wadi, bounced over and hit the other side of the fairway and just kept going. She got an ovation from a foursome of women on another green nearby. I think golf is a good outlet for gemela and Stan-ley may be right about her need for admiration and golf can be a "safe" channel for that.

I don't know if there are more shows about infidelity or I am just more sensitive to them. I hate lionesses. Just because some young lion comes along and chases off the old lion? Why can't the lioness stay with the lion that has looked after her and cared for her all those years? Through the rainy seasons - through the droughts. I think I will cancel Discovery channel tomorrow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't know the numerical answer but I do know that 42 is incorrect. The first law of numerical substituion states that only prime numbers can be utilized. Try again.

traicionado,

You are too funny. Cancel Discovery if that helps!

Hey, I sent you an email. Did you get it? Write if you can; I need some help on a problem...

You should read Douglas Adams. 42 is right.

No email from you but no emails at all which is strange. It may be that the corporate exchange is down. Sometimes that happens on weekends. I'll send you a PM (already done now) on SI with an "emergency" address - I say that because I almost never check it.

I saw your comment about the sleep meds. Bummer. 45 minutes is horrible. Does your MD have any advice at all? I noticed your "vent" but did not read it. Do I need to or were you just blowing off steam? I hate the way people respond to those over there. I am sorry for you and you know my feelings so I don't think I am offending you but I don't think you really want those responses either. You and I are warriors in a common cause. Battlefield acquaintances but friends for life. You have probably guessed you aren't likely to ever get any cyberhugs from me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I still get stressed at the mere thought of one of dewt's "big hug moments". Fortunately those flashbacks are now fewer and further between. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have a confession to make. I have not and will not read what gemela wrote but I I did accidentally see believer's response and it surprised me so much I read what believer wrote carefully and I will tell you why. My last two years in Dubai I was drinking way too much - insominia, stress, whatever - and on the road all the time. WW and I discussed this before making the decision to come to Saudi and that was one of our motivations. Since coming to Saudi, except for our 3 day trips a year to Bahrain to have beer with pork for lunch and the annual Pub Run we just participated in, I don't touch alcohol. I am not the one who insists on going to Bahrain for beer either - that is gemela. I also am home all the time except when I am at the office (9 hours a day) and have only been away from home for 6 days (busines trip) in the last 18 months. If she is giving the impression that I drink day and night, then one of us is lying.

1) Either everything she may have said is true (and I do wonder what she said now) and I am a liar and somebody needs to help her get away from me and get me intervention ASAP.

2) She is lying and probably because she wants someone to agree with her that the A was a good choice and that she should leave me for OM and wants to hear someone say it. [I have some experience with this which is why I mention it]

Let me tell you how the day went. She was a little quiet and reserved all day but insisted it was just nerves about the Bday party. Party went fine. She got lots of praise. Everyone raved about her gift boxes. No kids dropped any bowling balls on their feet so it was a success.

We got home and were both exhausted. Kids opened presents and we went upstairs and laid down. WW and DDs were on the bed playing but later on I was sleepy so I rolled over and went to sleep. Later WW got in bed and I felt her holding my hand and squeezing and it woke me up. I was looking at her face and she was smiling and crying (looked like she had been crying). I asked what was wrong and she said she felt bad for what she had done to me. She said I didn't deserve what she had done and shouldn't forgive her. We talked for a bit and I told her ILY, etc. and that I was just fulfilling the promise I made to her when I married her. All people make mistakes and we are forgiven, learn and grow. It was a long conversation. The short version was that she said she does feel sad and cry but doesn't want me to see so she does that in private when we are all out of the house. I told her that I was here to help her and that, whatever her feelings, she needed to communicate that with me and we needed to get through it together. She said she still has feelings for OM, has not talked to him since January, is confused because everyone tells her what she had was a fantasy (she used that word several times), wants to stay and try to work on the marriage and, if that does not work, later on she will go to Mexico and try to get her feelings and thoughts together - she will never go to England. She saids she has no plans to seperate and hopes that her feelings for OM will fad and allow her to get back into the M. She said she had gotten advice from MB that going to UK was not an option and that what she had was not real. She says she is confused.

Now, one logical explanation is that whatever she said is true and I am lying about everything and she has been reading all my posts so knows exactly what I am looking for and is trying to show me those things so I won't be suspicious.

I am glad that apparently nobody suggested that her best decision was to go run off with the OM because I think that is was she was desperately doing anything she could think of to try to get someone to suggest. If she were to do that, it would destroy everything she is.

I don't want anyone to tell me what gemela is saying. I apologize for having read believer's post. All I do want to say is if there is anything anyone needs to question me on to understand better, please feel free. I am here to get any and all help I can to save my M. I want gemela here to get any and all help she needs.

If I really am a bad person with all these character faults, why would it benefit me to try to get gemela to post here? Whatever your opinion, please please continue to help gemela in any way you can and please please never let it occur to her that going to be with OM is a viable option. She has too many other good choices available for that.

Again, I am sorry believer for having read your post.

Traicionado....hmm, I told you that Gemela was crying and missing OM in private. I did that too, and I am sure others have as well. Its kind of embarrassing like I said, to cry for Another Man in front of your husband. To add insult to injury!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

It sounds like you had a very good conversation with your wife. I am so sure she wants the marriage to work, but Traicionado. at the beginning there are many doubts. To stay with husband , or to leave everything and run off with OM. But as days,weeks,go by you see things more and more clear. Give her time to think , to get rid of her feelings and emotions for that other man. Time will tell her what to do.

I am glad that the birthday went well and everyone had fun!!

I am also glad you are clarifying that you dont drink in an every day basis. That will not help the situation right now at all. You have to have a clear head to deal with a recovery of a marriage.

Nobody here will suggest any WW to run off with an OM. Thats crazy and completely against MB or moral principles. The purpose is for WWs to terminate ilicit relationships and work in their marriages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

Traicionado,

MD advised getting some sleep. I paid $75.00 for that advice. He advised a take a warm bath and practice relaxation techniques.

No, you do not need to read my vent. It was written by an imposter, not me. The imposter only had 45 minutes of sleep last night and was hallucinating. Everyone means well with their responses. I don’t pass judgment. Overall, I have received great support over there.

That was my first vent in a while. I hated it after I posted it but will let it stand for posterity sakes. I had a troubling hour long conversation with DS3. That was the catalyst for the vent.

No, I have never worried about receiving cyberhugs from you. Chards of ice, yes – but no hugs. Suits me fine.

"If she is giving the impression that I drink day and night, then one of us is lying."

No, she is not lying. She said EXACTLY what you said. Actually I read one post (in Spanish) and gave my reply, and then she corrected me. But let's not talk about her posts.

As long as we are being honest, I AM starting to worry about Gemela. I don't think she is having contact, and I don't think she is planning to leave her family.

HOWEVER, I do have a bit of a problem with her situation. I've been thinking about this for a week or so now. Gemela has very little power in determining her future. As a mother, it makes me cringe. I think she loves her children and it bothers me that you apparently have the power to send her here or there, with no regards for her rights as there mother.

If you lived in the U.S., she would be able to have an attorney to protect her. She would either get custody, shared custody, or at least visitation with your girls.

I believe that she was taken advantage of by a habitual predator, and yes, she made a huge mistake. But I don't think that she deserves to lose her children.

Hey Traicionado,

I agree with you that it's best you don't read Gemela's thread. It's a pity that you read Believers answer. It might have iven you an incorrect idea.

I think it's great that Gemela is posting and actually talking about herself and HER perception of her life. It's good she's doing this. Now have patience... again.

If you go back through my long winded original thread, I have never said once that she is in any danger of losing her children. I have said that, if she chooses to run off with OM, she goes alone. If she can prove that her relationship with OM is longlasting and she proves that she can provide a stable home, we will share custody of the WW's. If she wants to just get a divorce and go her separate way, that is entirely different. She has never said she wants a divorce - quite the opposite. On the other hand, I have told gemela from day one and again last night that I will never deny her a divorce if she asks for it.

Gemela's only problem with determining her future from my POV is that she has never thought about any alternate future other than with OM. Separation, divorce, nothing ever popped into her head until the A.

If you go back through all my threads, show me where I have ever said that she stays with me or loses the girls forever. I don't think you'll find it - in fact I believe you will find the opposite.

Its very hard not to read each others posts. Too much temptation to know what the other one is saying. Stanley and I tried not to read each other's posts but it was impossible for us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. But we survived!!

In their case its very important for them to stick to the promise of not reading each others,though, since there are other issues involved.

I agree with Believer, Gemela should not have the fear "over her head" that if she misteps she could lose her two little girls. Its horrible feeling to live like that for her.

Myrta

Okay, Traicianado, I may have read that into your posts. Please accept my apology. I think I'm looking at it from a mother's point of view, and not being sure of the whole SA thing.

Gemela is finally talking to folks here. I feel like there is a lot of hope for your family.

I hope you will have some patience and work on being the best husband and father possible.

I don't think Gemela realizes the good life she has with you, and I give you credit for providing for your family. Please don't give up.

Myrta,

I can't drink alcohol any more. I will if Gemela does and sometimes I won't even accompany her. She does like to drink with frequency although not to excess. We could get alcohol here but we don't. She has brought some undistilled alcohol home in the past. There are three kinds of alcohol here: 1) the real thing - it gets smuggled in by various methods 2) "siddiqi ("sid")" or essentially pure "flash" which is made by anybody with a still and 3) anything fermented - NA beer with sugar and yeast thrown in or NA wine or juice, etc. Gemela has brought home the third kind in the past but it is really gross. At the end of the day, I am a chemical engieer. If I wanted to make my own, I have been trained to do exactly that. I choose not to for my family.

I think I was on my way to becoming an alcoholic and wanted to stop. Ask gemela how many of the people she knows in Dubai were in a similar situation to us. The short answer is every single one of them. I am not blaming Dubai for my behavior - I blame me. But I had to get out. I don't want to raise DDs that way just like I won't let gemela smoke in front of them even though DD1 still knows mom smokes.

Since I gave up alcohol, I have a lot more free time. I fill that time in the early morning hours making interactive educational games for kids that I post free on the internet. This year I have been taking DD1's homework and have created games for her teacher to use to teach the methods more effectively. The school placed it on all the K and 1st grade computers and given to parents for home use. Keep in mind that this was intended as a teaching aid for classroom instruction so it has not all the interactive help that a canned program should but I am now uploading those programs at www.karlazone.com/first-grade/main.html. It should be up in 10 more minutes or so. I did not write this version to be internet-based so I am not sure how it will work and it will definitely need a broadband connection and a Flash Player Ver 8 plugin. I did not put in any preloaders since it was designed to be run off hard disk. The remainder of things on that site are better designed for internet use. I don't do much scripting any more because gemela does not like me to spend time on the computer. It is just as well, I don't make money from it - just a hobby.

believer,

I think patience is what I pray for every day. I am giving gemela all the time she wants and needs. My only goal is to ensure NC as best as possible because that is the only way her time will have any value. Other than that, anything is fair.

I will never deny DDs their mother. That would not be right for them. I will deny WW to opportunity to run DDs lives. Any life WW can establish and prove is stable and safe for DDs, they are free to go to - whether that is sole, shared, visitation - I don't know. Right now education is a factor. We just have to see where this ends up. My initial fear was the WW would take DDs to UK, fail that relationship in 6 months or a year, have no job, no place to live and place DDs in a very unhealthy situation. That is the only thing I am trying to avoid. WW is a great mother to DDs when she is not stressed and they love her very much. For me to deny them their mother would be worse than cruel.

At the onset I told Myrta she was free to join the OM at his home any time. I offered a no hassle divorce and even agreed to make up an excuse other than infidelity for the divorce. Despite everything I did not want Myrta to suffer the scorn of her grown children and the little one (now 13 years old). She declined the offer with great vigor.

When I suspected she was having some sort of withdrawal I offered Myrta the opportunity to visit OM for 2-3 weeks so she could see him every day 24/7. I was certain her withdrawal was going to disappear if she had to live with OM.
Her attachment to OM was based on a long distance Internet and phone relationship with sporadic visits. I was certain that seeing OM EVERYDAY would take care of her withdrawal.

Some said this was 180 degrees apart from what MB preaches but I could not accept the idea of doing these plans to change the mind of a WW.

IMHO. Traicionado is doing more or less what I did. He has a wide open door and Gemela can ride into the sunset with her OM any time she wants. It is interesting to see that Gemela has shown some behaviors similar to Myrta such as hiding any signs of withdrawal.

BTW, I have never read that Traicionado wanted to keep the daughters away from Gemela.

The only difference I see is that Traicionado seems to be in charge of the money in the household. In my case Myrta had all the control over the money since I gave the idea of doing that shortly after marriage.

The other difference is that Myrta's OM was not a young stud. I used to wish OM had been a young stud because I could not understand the attraction Myrta had for her OM (still don't).

OM was less well off. I also wished Myrta's OM was wealthy because sometimes I would think Myrta was simply staying with the better provider. I suspect this swimming instructor is not likely to be a good provider.

Traicionado....thats the best thing you can do, give up alcohol"!! I mean socially a drink here and there its fine, but to drink just to get wasted or drunk, I dont see the fun or purpose on that. Although some people use it to alleviate their sadness or problems. But I dont see how alcohol could help any one. I have never drink a drop of anything ,ever!! Stanley has tried for years to make me drink, but I just dont like it or have any desire for.

You know sometimes WWs try to change a bit how BS are to get simpathy from others. SOmetimes they magnify a little problem to a huge one, to have an excuse for their doings.

I tried to go to that program, but when I clicked on it, it said "!system not found" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. But your job sounds neat!! YOu need a clear head for sure to do your job.,

Why do people in Dubai like to drink so much? Is it the syle of living? NO TV? or SF? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gemela should not smoke also, not good for her either. Maybe now she is smoking more? To relieve the stress, the worries,etc. I was very glad to see her post this morning, it was a good one. She took her time to write it and explain her side. She seems to be trying to make the marriage work. So thats a plus!


Myrta

Myrta,

I gave up alcohol over a year and a half ago. I'll never go back. I am cutting and pasting this from my browser nav bar and it works http://www.karlazone.com/first-grade/main.html try cutting and pasting rather than clicking.

Dubai is fake. Everything about it is fake. I don't know why people drink so much there but it is a fact of life. Everyone is trying to live beyond themselves. Ask gemela what she misses most about Dubai. The first thing she always says is going to the Hard Rock Cafe on the Wednesday Night Harley rides and filling up on beer and cigarettes.

Stan-ley,

You skin-flint. For about the first month after Dday, I made gemela the offer to go be with OM not for 3 weeks but a full 6 months! No cure-no pay! If she decided it was not what she wanted, she could have returned at any time with no questions asked. I may have had regrets later but I would have honored my word and I would have let her come back if she had chosen. I left that offer on the table for about a month and eventually took it off. Now it is no longer an option she has available. Now if she goes off with OM, she and I will never be together again.

Also, up until very recently, gemela had complete control of the finances. All she gave me was an allowance of 30 riyals per week. I only recently took the finances away from her to prevent her from buying phone cards. Over the past two weeks, I have offered to relax that and give her more control of the finances but she says she is currently happy with the way things are. Either she does not trust herself with the money at the moment or else is trying to regain my trust. I don't know - all I know is she wants no access to the finances right now - or so she tells me.

Traic, it's so common for ex-pat societies to drink too much. It happens in the Pacific Islands here in a very similar way and it's so well documented in places like Kenya between the wars.

I commend you for giving it up. With the sort of lifestyle ex-pats lead, it must have been quite hard.

BTW, I think you and gemela are going to be fine. I have a very good gut instinct for who's going to make it - well, it's a gut instinct and listening to how people react to the situation they've found themselves in (both BS and WS). I'm almost tempted to start a thread about it.

Also it's as plain as the nose of my face that the sort of guy she got involved with is an opportunist and a predator and I bet he's moved along since he's been back in England, happy with another notch on his belt.

If I could speak Spanish I'd try to tell Gemela that.

Thanks KiwiJ,

I wish I knew the cause. It is just so pervasive that it is "accepted" as "normal". It is wrong. The western expat community in Dubai is about 70% to 80% British with USA being about 5% more or less. On the other hand, westerners account for maybe a total of 10% to 15% of the total population. You are in new surroundings, away from your family and friends and it is easy to try to blend in. I don't know. I always thought I was better grounded than that. In my case I believe it was stress, travel and very long work hours (4:30AM to 6:00PM the norm) coupled by the fact that I inhereted my mother's insomnia (she is reading this BTW). Still no excuse. We should have left Dubai early on but gemela loved Dubai so I tried to maintain that for her as long as I could. I still feel bad about taking her away from Dubai aven though I am SO glad we are gone. I think our problems actually began in Muscat (we moved from Dubai to Muscat and then back to Dubai). But I posted that a long time ago in my original thread so won't repeat here. The second time in Dubai was fatal. Moving to Saudi was supposed to be the opportunity to right all the wrongs. It went the other way.

Kiwi. I told similar words to Gemela in my first post to her. I also told her that OM probably have been with married women before.

I'm sure you're right Myrta. In fact I KNOW you're right. It must be a great place for that sort of guy, husbands that work long hours, women with lots of household help and lots of time on their hands. All they have to do is say the right thing at the right time.

It makes me MAD!!!!!

Jen - Please post to Gemela. She writes excellent English.

I really do think that she got tied up with a predator. Women from Mexico are kept away from the men. I think that she didn't have the protection that the rest of us do - ie: no experience with men.

OK, B, I will. It's kind of ironic that my H told me that the OM I was involved with was exactly that sort of guy and I wouldn't believe him. All my friends saw it. EVERYONE saw it but me.

Thanks, Jen. You know, I know men. I dated a lot before I got married, and being in the engineering field, have always worked with all men. So I know how some of them are. I'm thankful for that.

I am sure that Gemela was taken advantage of by this guy. She won't tell you that, because she hasn't realized it yet.

She needs some women to come along side her and guide her through this.

WW talked repeatedly last night about how it may have been a fantasy - everyone is telling her that and she is almost starting to at least entertain the concept although still clearly does not believe it. I told her I would not say anything negative about the OM but if she gave herself time, she might see that it was never real. If she ever came to that conclusion, I would show her what I had to support the fact the OM was not a really nice guy but I would not do that until she was ready. Right now she needs to come to her own conclusion without interfeerence from me.

I am focused on being the best husband and father I can be. These are two points I filled out on gemela's EN questionaire for her due to her reluctance. I absolutely was not the father to my DDs I should have been back then. There are a couple of reasons and a couple of excuses. None exists any longer. I think DDs have a great father now. I think DDs think they do too. As far as me not being a good husband, it is hard for me to comment on that since I don't know how much of history has been rewritten. I don't think any of her friends in Dubai would accept that I was not a good husband to her and they have told her that. It doesn't matter though. Gemela believes the history she currently remembers. Perception is everything.

Traic, you are right. Every time my H said something negative about the OM, I leapt to his defence. Noone wants to think they've been taken for a fool. It's hard to face.

I think in time she will realize that was a fantasy. She was vulnerable and this predator swooped in.

You have hit on something very important to a woman - being a good father. I don't think men understand how much that means to us. I absolutely LOVE seeing men with their babies/children. Men are stronger than women, and it melts my heart to see a man loving a child.

My boys were raised without their father. I always looked up to men who would play with them, hug them, spend time with them, encourage them.

I don't think you can go wrong in loving your girls.

Believer,

I told gemela very clearly last night in very plain Spanish that the only person who is going to walk away from this is her. I said I loved her and had committed to be by her side until death and it was a promise I would not break. She has all the safety of time, home and family she needs.

If you go back and read my posts in a previous thread. I said I was the one who was concerned about having too much power and I was asking for advice on how to empower gemela so she didn't feel so helpless. The advice I got was to leave things as they are. I am still open to suggestions.

To be honest I think gemela has a lifestyle that is the envy of everyone she knows. But marriage is more than just lifestyle. I want her to have the marriage and family that is the envy of everyone she knows.

Not a difficult chore. DD1 is at an age where she even challenges me. I think WW would have her hands full. So far, DD1 still knows which side of me she wants to end up on when it is all said and done. It breaks her heart if she thinks I am disappointed in her. It breaks my heart to see her sadness. She always comes back and asks if she is still my little angel. I remind her she always will be.

DD2 is more into mom at the moment but she likes to entertain me. It is hard for DD1 and I to play DD2's games because she constantly adds new rules. We try our best anyway although DD1 gets mad and quits.

Pull another stunt like you did last week without discussing it first and flaming daggers is more likely what you can expect from me. Ice would be way too kind and undeserved.

What did I do last week?

WW having to learn of your surprise Plan B by coming home to an empty house ring a bell?

Yeah? What was wrong with Plan B being a surprise? It was coordinated with exposure.

Ideally exposure should still happen during Plan A to give Plan A more effective time to work. You know you delayed exposure but I won't go back in to that story. Also, you gave yourself no time to plan or even try to negotiate Plan B. You waged war instead.

I know you have some health issues involved and I can appreciate how that might accelerate your decision to go to Plan B but you left before exposure hit home. It is like you ran away from the fallout. I don't want to criticize you here when I have already called you every bad name I can think of via email ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). I just don't think your approach to Plan B is typical and, if I remember your thread on SI, what you were doing (or at least saying) was Plan D and then you later downgraded to Plan B thanks to some good woodwork by Bigger and others.

You should have never delayed exposure, should have let Plan A last something past Eday and then go to Plan B in an ideal world. Your situation, however, is not ideal. But then, I am not saying anything you don't already know. Your health is super critical right now and you have to attend to that first. If Plan A was getting in the way of that, good that you got away from the stress. Now the question is where you go from here. I don't think you should spend so much time away from MB. It is far healthier than SI, IMHO. But I also know you don't agree with me on that. Oh well....

I thought you might find this interesting. From what little conversation we have had about it, OM tried to convince WW to let him come to our house. She denies they ever met here. As a contractor, he could not live on camp but he had a system set up with a friend whereby he could use the friend's house on camp for interludes. It seemed well organized. There is also significant phone record evidence that tied him to about a dozen western expat women on camp. My impression is that, whatever OM was doing, it was running like a Swiss watch. If I can be quite honest, my initial reaction when I found out about this was OM was doing this for a MILF web site. I have never found any proof of that, however.

I wanted to add, I couldn't do any research directly on something like that even if I wanted to because our proxy server is EXTREMELY strict. I did ask the PI to investigate it though. It was very difficult for me to even research STD's because even that topic is screened. Internet access is highly restricted here.

Hey Traicionado,

have you talked with Gemela about Dr. Harley's four rules: care, protection, honesty and time?

When I thought that recovery was possible I had planned on how to explain them to WH. I've forgotten that now! But anyway, you do have to adapt them to your own particular situation, so you might as well start and see how Gemela reacts. Slowly, one at a time.

I'm reading Marriage Insurance, a book Dr. H wrote years ago and which was not one of the commercially successful ones but very popular with Univrsity professors according to Dr. H. I asked, he sent! I also listen to him when I can in the afternoons. And he repeats and repeats and repeats the need to spend 15 hours alone with your spouse. Maybe you could start by talking to Gemela about spending these hours together and plan them.

Just a sugestion.

cc46,

No. Gemela and I don't talk about R at all. She still does not seem really interested and appears to still be grieving OM. I have worked hard to try to get more alone time with gemela but it is very difficult. DD1 is extremely possessive. The golf seems to have been the biggest success. We may get 6 to 8 hours a week from that alone. We don't get to be away from DD1 very much. She is very insecure. DD2 wouldn't miss us. Even so, I do not take any time for myself - never. Every non-work hour I have is spent with family or WW alone.

Traicionado, I'm sorry but I think you CAN find time to spend with her and I think you should ASK her to spend time alone with you. That's what Dr. Harley says and I believe it's true.We can find time. And if Gemela really wants the marriage I think she can at least TRY TO FIND THE TIME. Do you think it's too much to ask of her? Doesn't matter she's in withdrawal...

This has been going on for enough time and you need to do something before you get tired of just waiting...

BW, spending 15 hours with you doesn't mean she can't cry and miss OM with you... She CAN do that.

BTW try not to focus on OM, he's not worth a second of your time. He really isn't. He's not PART of YOUR relationship with your wife and hopefully soon he will only be something she would prfer not to remember of her life.

Traicionado -

Hang in there, Gemela seems to be joining the MB crew. I think she may be a tiny bit spoiled, but don't you tell her that, I will.

I raised my boys alone from the time they were 2 and 5. My life involved finding (and KEEPING) good day care and paying for it. I got up every morning at 5:00, dragged them out of bed, fed them, packed lunches, got ready for work and dropped them off, hoping to get to work on time.

When they were sick, I called in sick to work, and was in constant fear of taking off too much time. My daycare providers were occasionally quit and let me know the night before. It was H*LL.

During Desert Storm, I was required to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and that went on for a year. My 5 year old learned to ride a bike during that time, and I never got to spend any time doing ANYTHING with them.

People who think it would be easy "living on love" are those that have never tried it.

Anyway, don't let me get started here.

You are being a good husband and working on being a better father. I think part of your problem is being male, and an engineer. I work with all engineers, and they think a little differently - wouldn't want to marry one.

Traicionado....your wife is not very receptive to spending time alone with you right now. Just give her a little bit more time, and that will happen naturally. She still in severe withdrawal right now and the thought of spending time with you, is not there yet.

Stanley was very insistent with me, and sometimes that pulled me a bit farther away from me. I felt too overwhelmed by his clinginess to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. So, let her be on her own if she wants to. Of course make sure that she is mantaining NC with OM. If she re-establishs contact that will be a draw back to all your work with Gemela.

Why is your DD1 so clingy and possesive with your wife?

Myrta

cc46,

Spending time alone with gemela is not easy. I am not sure where my string of errors began last night but it ended with me falling asleep on the couch.

As soon as we got home, WW and I went running. DD1 complained and almost cried that she could not go with us. DDs hugged and kissed each of us three times before we could get out the door. They played with the neighbors meanwhile. When we got back, they were still entertained with the neighbors so I suggested to WW to take that time and post on MB. Usually she won't post until the evening and, on those nights, I won't see her so I thought this might be better. I watched DDs outside and then we came inside and I made them dinner and served WW her dinner at the PC while she was posting. Then I cleaned up the kitchen and WW finally came in to reheat her plate and finish eating. We went upstairs to shower and got on the bed to watch TV and DDs piled on (normal). They are on trimester break so are staying up later. After about 30 minutes, I felt frustrated and saw no sign of WW letting the kids know they could play in their room, get ready for bed, or anything else so I went and got a book and went to another room to read (no way I could read in the bed with DDs bouncing around - [the Pilgrim's Progress]) If I try to suggest that DDs go play or go to bed, WW will scold me and tell me to let them stay a while longer - so I don't do it.

Eventually DD2 decided she was sleepy so WW took them to bed but DD1 insisted she would not sleep just yet. I told her to get back in bed with WW and I went downstairs to the kitchen to continue reading. DD1 came downstairs and said she wanted to watch Nickelodeon. I went back upstairs and got in bed with WW. Let me preface this my saying I knew this was going to be a bad idea so maybe that is why I let myself get so frustrated but WW and I started talking. It was going pretty well I thought but 5 minutes later DD1 comes in the room and says she wants to go to bed (she doesn't like to be alone - ever) and wanted WW to give her cariñitos. WW said it was too late, she had had her chance, she should just go to bed.

[aside: the cariñitos is a very bad habit (IMO) that was started when MIL lived with us. MIL did it ever night and, when she left, WW began it to ease the loss of MIL for the DDs. That was years ago. It bothers me that a 7 yr old can't go to sleep without cariñitos. I have asked WW to stop the practice. This is not normal "tucking in". It takes 30-45 minutes, on average, and if WW takes less time than that, DD1 is back and forth to our room like a yo-yo for another half hour. I can't think of any other parents doing this. It is time that WW and I could have together too. Personally I don't think it is good for anyone except maybe WW and she does nothing but complain about it]

So DD1 stomped off to her room. WW and I tried to continue our talk but DD1 kept coming an going. She would come back in and kiss and hug WW and come kiss and hug me and she did this about three times. Each time she begged WW for cariñitos and each time refused. Needless to say WW and I were not doing much talking. Finally DD1 sat right outside our door and began crying. I got up and went to her and told her to go get in the bed with mom and I went downstairs, parked myself on the couch and read myself to sleep. I woke up about an hour later and went upstairs and got in bed.

So the question is: where did this begin to go out of control? I have no clue. It is very difficult to find 15 hours a week alone with WW. Five nights out of seven, by the time DD1 is asleep and WW gets in bed with me, she is asleep within 5 minutes. I never see her in the morning for more than a few minutes, if that. Ever since I have known her, she has slept 10-12 hours a night.

I did misstate earlier when I said I never take time to myself. I am up by 4:00AM every day so from 4-6 is when I have my time to do whatever I want (make a game, run, read the news or, lately, post on MB and eventually make me something for breakfast). If WW were up before I left for work, I would spend that time with her. I would even make her breakfast too.

I got out SAA again last night and am rereading the four rules. Personally I think I am doing extremely well on the rules of protection and honesty. I try my very best on the rule of care but we have never gone through the list of EN's so it is guesswork on my part. The rule of time is where I fail the most but I don't see that many hours in a week without DDs. When we are alone, she does get my full attention. If we are doing nothing more than watching a movie on TV, I put my head on her lap and face her - back to TV - as an example. We will have to change our lifestyle and establish different guidelines with DDs to get 15 hours per week alone. I am all for it because I have been telling WW for years that we need time to be together just as a couple. She is not helpful in that.

I thought I posted it earlier but I have told WW that she does not have to hide her feelings from me and that I have not one but two shoulders to cry on and they are open 24/7.

Needless to say, it was a frustrating night. In a normal marriage, it would have been a reasonably good night so I now have to ask myself the question whether I am just being impatient and I am guessing the problem is me.

believer,

gemela seems more eager to post these days. That is good. I wish she would learn to do it at a different time of day (like when I am at work). Maybe that will happen. Right now, if she posts, that time will have to come directly out of my 15 hours per week so, from that perspective, her posting is a double-edged sword.

I feel my frustration level rising again. I am going to stop reading adrainc's thread. In fact, I think I am going to stop reading MB for a while. I am going to go back and reread SAA and try to get back to basic principles. I will continue to encourage WW to post and try to give her that time without distractions from DDs.

Well, Traicionada, I was SHOCKED by the cariñitos thing. I think kids need to learn how to go to bed by themselves.

But I have some friends from Mexico (male) tonight for dinner. I'd never heard the term, so I asked them. They all do the same with their children. I said that 45 minutes seemed like a long time, but they seemed to think even longer was normal.

WOW. The difference in cultures is amazing!

I did ask about how sex happens, and they all replied that was AFTER the children were carried to bed.

Believer. Our youngest daughter is 13 years old and she still likes Stanley and I to tuck her in bed. First I have to come to her bed and then Stanley has to put the blankets around her . She is very spoiled still and she is already a teenager. The other four kids were not as intense as she is but they were baby for a long time.

So I guess is a cultural thing to spoil them that way. But Traicionados and Gemelas kids are still very young, gosh. They are still babies, its natural they want to snuggle with their parents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Myrta - I understand it now. But it is not the way most people in this country are raised. So I think it might seem like a problem to Traicionado.

I always hugged and kissed my kids. They took a bath in the evening, and then I read them stories, and hugged them and kissed them goodnight - in their room. When they were young, they were always sleeping by 8:00PM.

That gave me and my husband time alone - to talk over the day, snuggle, and have sex. The idea of a child in the bed is somewhat strange to me.

My children did come to our bed if they were sick, there was a storm, or they were afraid, but it didn't happen often.

Believer....our children NEVER slept with us when they were little. They will snuggle for a bit, but off they went to their room,their bed. I am not very fond of that idea.

But those carinitos are good for them at any time. They probably feel some tension between the parents, and in their minds they think that if they are in bed with them, everything will be ok!

It seems like Traicionado is getting very frustrated with the situation. I feel bad for what they are going thru. Its so so hard at the beginning to make it thru!

It is interesting what you learn about on a board like this. Until an hour ago, I'd never heard of this. Then I talked to my friends, and they were all agreeing that it is what they do when at home in Mexico.

I have never been bothered about the cariñitos from the standpoint that I was left alone. Sometimes when gemela is not feeling well, I do it myself. I guess my overriding concern was whether or not it was a healthy thing to do. DD2 doesn't need it. DD1 is the one that has to have everything exactly so. Even after finally going to bed, DD1 looks for any excuse to come back in to say something to us. Sometimes she gets in and has not even thought of the excuse yet. She starts stammering and looking at the ceiling.

Okay I won't worry about whether it is a good thing to do or not. From a practical standpoint, if we make the assumption that WW is going to go to sleep almost immediately after putting DDs to bed, it simply means that it makes it very difficult to find 15 hours in a week to be alone.

The MC way back when told us that we should spend at least 15 minute per night talking after kids went to bed. This went on for a couple of weeks until WW told me that she could think of absolutely nothing she wanted to talk to me about and did not want to talk to me. We haven't really spoken much about us since. All conversation is about activities, DDs, etc.

Myrta,

Just read your post. Frustrated is probably a good description. I think that is why maybe I need to get away from this and just focus on things and give gemela more time. We may be going to MC today if gemela does not have something come up that precludes it. I will go anyway. I am still working on Plan A and Plan Me. We are going to Mexico in 4 months. if things are still the same then, that may be a good time to start Plan B - just leave her there.

Traicionado -

I know how you feel. Some of the most intimate moments I had with my WH was at bedtime. We used to lay in bed and go over our day, our hopes and fears. It is one thing I really miss.

We both worked long hours, and it was kind of "our time", something to look forward to.

So what do I do now?

I realize taking my book and reading in the other room was not PC but how can I a) get gemela interested in spending time with me b) get her to help me arrange it c) make good use of it? I am doing the best Plan A I can think of but I can't even get this horse to decide it is thirsty - much less lift a hoof to do something about it. If I try to get the kids away to play in their room, I am not being a good father. Gemela will hold this against me.

What is frustrating more than anything is that I can do 100 things great and 1 thing bad and the great things go unnoticed but the 1 bad thing gets me crucified.

I am also tired. I'll go watch Rocky III i think. I am not yet giving up on gemela. I am just tired. I feel like I have been given an impossible assignment with 15 hours per week. I just can't figure out what to do with DD1. I do think she is afraid that, if she is not with us, the next time she sees us, we may not be together. I know she has been affected by all this.

traicionado,

She may decide to stay there on her own. Just some reality to remind you to take it one step at a time, one day at a time. Don't try to think so far out. You are a good plodder; plod along. You cannot control everything. Tend to those things within your control and let the others do as they may.

Hey, Dr. Harley recommends AD's for those BS carrying the Plan A torch. Why not start taking them?

MC started okay. We discussed that we need to communicate. Make time alone. Discuss how we really feel without fear. WW said this was difficult for her. Mostly this was the theme. MC ended with WW crying, walking out and yelling at me before she left. It is still somewhat of a blur.

I asked the MC after WW left if maybe things have gone too badly wrong and maybe we just need to be apart. She said not just yet but I am not so sure.

I am thinking maybe I am ready to put the 6 month with OM free trial offer back on the table. Let her see if it really can work out.

traicionado,

I know you are tired. It is easy to understand. You have been a trooper. But no, sending WW to OM for six months is not a good idea. No, it is a terrible idea. You have to suck it in and keep putting one foot in front of the other. Unless you want to move in with DS1 and me...


PS Don't ask me why I am still up. And no, not doing what I did last night. Not one little bit.

She says she wants to go to Mexico rather than England. She has decided that the way I am is the way I will always be and that I am incapable of changing. I told her there is no point of even trying if that is what she believes. We are discussing separation now.

Does she plan to go to Mexico on a trial basis or move back there? And sans DD?

I am sorry to hear this news.

I have no idea. We will hopefully discuss more tonight.

Traicionado,

don't give up! I see it as very positive that SOMETHING is happening. Hold on, keep insisting on the 15 hours.

The MC did not go wrong. It was the most open dialogue we have had in months. It showed me that gemela will never allow her perception of me to change. She is convinced I will always be all the negative things she hates. Maybe she is completely right. I am biased so my opinion cannot be trusted. She said very specifically that she is certain I will never change. That being the case, I see no point in trying to convince her. Her mind is already decided.

I do think she has had valid criticisms. She may not have understood the reasons (or at least my POV) but her perception is overall good. I also will continue to work on and improve those things even after she is gone because I know she is right. I may not have a better marriage but at least I will be better as a person.

You are right - I am very positive something is happening too - I am very positive we are separating.

TRAICIONADO....where is the passion for your wife? You are just going to let her go to Mexico, just like that?
You are giving up so soon,just because, she has this oppinion of you that you will never change? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. You are not fighting for your wife like a man that truly loves his wife.
If she has been in NC with OM, she has gotten good advice here In MB, why is she so adamant that you will never change? She must be getting some "advice" from some negative sources. She is not making this decision on her own. Dont you think? Just yesterday when she posted, she was very positive about working on the marriage. All of a sudden, this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

She needs to see love, want, passion from you! If you give up so easy, you are just showing her that she is not worth it! That pushes her to OM.

Some BS here are in much worst situations than yours, Todd for example, and he still has hopes for his wife to come back. YOu have your wife right there with you in Saudi, so far from OM, and you are resolved to separate without even really trying. You should not let her go so fast...you just went to one MC and all this has happened.

Please reconsider your decision of sending Gemela back to Mexico? By the way, if she goes to Mexico, is she going with or without the girls?

Myrta

Wait till the dust settles till you start to assess and obsess.

ALWAYS keep your temporal perspective straight.

Stay in Plan A. (Meaning, don't let your emotions cause more damage)

IF you do separate, it ain't the end of the world. It might be necessary. I'm certainly not a big proponent of it. I fought it tooth and nail. I set it up as a 'boundry'. All that being said, now that I'm further along in my journey, I can see why W wanted to separate, and I can see how it's done some good.

I am even willing to consider the possibility that separation is/was a necessary step in my recovery with Dylan. Dang, I wish I didn't have to admit that in public.

If it actually happens, perhaps it will end up being of benefit to you guys. Again... still not a proponent... but...

Dunno. Just try not to get too discouraged. Whatever happens, now is the time for you to be extra careful and extra mindful of your reactions.

No hugs this morning. Just a friendly pat on the back.

Gemela is just being the typical WS. I think she is saying that you will never change because she is seriously considering staying and working on the marriage. It is part of her withdrawal.

I'm 100% against separation. So are the Harleys. You can't work on a marriage while apart.

Sure you can. Ya rent side by side apartments then take your power saw and cut a doorway connecting the two apartments.

My son actually gets a kick out of telling his friends about his divorced parents.

On a serious note...

I agreed with the Harleys on this one. Totally. And I still do. BUT I also have to grudgingly admit that Dylan and I separating has in many ways helped us. I think that the 'space' that Dylan has gained through this separation has removed some of the fear associated with the situation. The time we spend together is by choice, not necessity and I think that goes a long way.

I can't believe I'm debating this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I still don't think separating is the key to resolving marital difficulties, apparently it is not the end of the world.

It is not the end of the world, but a higher percentage of people divorce once separation has happened.

I am worried.

I just can’t help it. Have to use an analogy: I once broke my nose skating (true!). Went to the doctor who told me that he could not settle it until the swelling stopped. A week later I go to him again and he pulls out a rubber hammer an WHACKS the nose. Had to break it again to settle it again. Hurt more than when I originally broke it. I guess MC is the same. Have to pull the scabs from the sores to see the wounds.

When you go home ask your wife whether you two can have a truce for some days. Some sort of a time out. Go out of your way to be decent to each other.

A common mistake is to carry on with arguments started at a MC session. One thing a MC is capable of is refereeing an argument and keeping it constructive. Without the MC the argument is just an argument.

Try to get 2-3 more MC sessions before either of you start discussing separation or divorce or 6 month OM sabbatical. At the moment OM is a moot point. Don’t drag him into your marriage again!

Do whatever you have to do to get yourself out of this funk. This is just a step in the path of recovery.

I also want to point one thing out: Your story about your daughters wanting to be in your room, wanting to be tucked in, wanting all this attention.
Kids are more perceptive than we realize. They know things are not right. Their reaction to the situation can come forth in many ways. They might think that since they think being tucked in is great for them that it is great for you. They might think that while you are tucking them in they know where you and/or their mother are – that you are not separated. Sometimes a kid yearns so much for security and attention that even “negative” attention is sought after. You two seriously have to evaluate the effects of the affair and the consequent interaction between you two and the reactions of the children. For example – trying to have a relationship discussion with teh DD around and/or awake is not a good idea. Take better care in chosing your battles and the battlefield.

Hey B, I'm no proponent of separation. I'm still angry and feel betrayed by those who recommended separation to Dylan. I hate going to bed without her. I hate the fact that we're not 'officially' working towards recovery. It sucks. I hate it.

But...

It is what it is...

And you gotta deal with what you got.

Like I posted to Adrian, you can respectfully not agree with the idea of separating, but to try and coerce someone into staying could cause more damage than the separation would.

Traicionado,

this is exactly what you needed! Don't separate now! Now is the moment that your plan A has to be the best ever and she will start to notice.

She's posting! That's great. Don't worry about what was said in MC. It's important that she's talking and so are you. Please tell me you haven't decided yet...

Let's see. Where to start. Excuse me for leaving out all the details because there is not enough raw lumber in the entire Amazon rain forest for your 2x4's.

Never saw or spoke to WW yesterday. This AM was almost the same but I had a change of heart. I went up to … don't know why I went up actually but I don't think it was to continue the fight ... yet that is more or less what we did although it was more discussion than fight (Don't even think about it, Bigger!). Rather than explain it all (can't remember it all anyway) and suffer your wrath, let me hit high points not necessarily in order.

WW says she doesn't think I will ever change but that I should have insisted that I could. Why did I give up so easily? She said I should have argued with her. I said I was just taking her at her word.

I asked who has been singly responsible for keeping this marriage alive to-date. Has she even lifted a finger? She agreed it was me and that she has done nothing.

I am very tired and am tired of hauling her along. She needs to get with the program. She needs to get off the sidelines.

She asked what I wanted. I said maintain NC and begin communication with me. She asked what she should communicate about because she is not ready to talk about much. I suggested we talk about the problems she believes we had pre-affair. What are the things about me that she would like to see different? She said no PC, more open to the girls and more sociable with people. I asked if there was anything else. She said that was mostly it. I asked why mostly? As long as we are going for change, let's try for the whole smash. I asked if I should throw the PC in the trash because I would be happy to do it right then. She reiterated that I will never change and be more sociable. So I said then that she is just repeating that she believes I am incapable of change. She said yes she is repeating it. So I asked if I had been spending any time on the PC. She said no. I asked if she had seen changes in my interactions with the girls. She said very much. So I asked if she agrees I have changed in some things already, how can she say that I am incapable of change? She didn't have an answer that was very convincing. I won't blabber on. I just caught her in her own logic trap but she never understood my point. She still insists that I cannot change.

She said it has been very hard to maintain NC but she is doing it. I told her that is great and she needs to keep doing it but it doesn't win her any medals in my book. I said she gets no brownie points for NOT having an affair. She asked what else she needs to do. I said communicate. If all she can do right now is continually point out my flaws, I will accept that as an improvement.

I talked about SIL again. SIL story bugged me all night. I asked how she could take advice from SIL – an adulterous woman in a 10 year affair. SIL said it was okay to maintain the affair because they were in love (see chat in other thread). According to SIL's logic, WW should run off with OM because they are in love too. How is it that SIL being in love can justify an affair but WW being in love cannot? I said SIL simply made no sense whatsoever.

WW said she wants to keep trying and does not want to separate. I agreed that we would keep trying but I was tired of doing 100 things right and having her only look for the one thing wrong. I was tired of her always looking for the negative. In my case, I was always looking for the positive. What is good about WW that wants me to keep this M? She looks for the bad in me to justify the A. Nobody can live up to her scrutiny. I said I was willing to change, accept her criticism and guidance and try to be a better person but that it was a two-way street. She had some work to do herself. I pointed out specific instances recently where I was very outgoing and established aquaintances in circumstances I never would have before. She said those were isolated instances and meant nothing. So even if I change, she is not going to give me credit for it.

Now it was late and I needed her to take me to the dentist so she did. We were quiet. She said Talk! Don't be so quiet. I asked what she wanted me to say. I said I still love you, does that help? I think it did.

We are playing golf in the afternoon. I think she went to IC this morning. Excuse my little departure. Communication seems to be the biggest issue on the table at the moment. I think we made significant progress. Hope so anyway.

I am still really tired. Maybe I do need AD.

Yesterday was not one of my prouder moments but, for some reason, these things all seem to turn out great up to the moment. Save your 2x4's because I won't read them. Seems like I am already in a fight with someone on another thread. I have enough battles to fight without picking more.

Anyway, that is where we are at the moment - not separated.

Oh, and Bigger, you really are getting soft <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

dewt,

How am I coercing WW into staying? I don't get that bit.

Oops I forgot. I will leave myself open for whacking on this but, at the very end of our conversation this AM, I asked WW a favor. I asked if we could agree to avoid SF for a while. I was just not enjoying it and it was awkward. She agreed it was okay.

I just left WW from the grocery store. She seems really happy. Things are much better than yesterday apparently and she has more IC scheduled.

I also left her with cash now for the first time in almost two months. She agreed she will still be accountable for all of it to prove none went to phone cards.

Believe it or not, I think she finally seems committed to NC for the first time ever. At least she is beginning to convince me.

And dewt, forget whatever I said before. Next time I see you, just try to keep from getting the "big hug". I was reading your posts to adrianc this AM. I was crying and smiling at the same time.

Traicionado,
I think you are doing good. Conversation has started. Keep trying to get 15 hours alone with her and if you talk fine and if you don't that's OK too.

I think this is progress. I also think ADs will help you. They will dumb the pain and let you think more clearly.

You need to be calm. It has been too long.

(((((((traicionado)))))))

By being such a cool dude, of course.

I didn't figure you were doing it now... I thought it was a topic that was developing. I probably rambled myself into non-relevancy. I tend to do that from time to time.

Yeah... I think I do that a lot. It's worse IRL where I don't have a backspace key.

I'm glad you're reading my posts to Adrian. It's so easy to lose perspective when you are right in the middle of everything.

Overall, it sounds like you and Gem are totally on the right track. I could find any reasons to pull out the th'ol 2x4s. Oh well.

Oh, stop worrying about the "can't change" stuff. Of course you can change, and of course she will notice the changes. And she will change too.

Ok... I need to drink more coffee before I type anymore.

Am I okay with the no SF agreement within the confines of Plan A? I know it is an EN of varying priority for man and woman but it seems to do me more harm than good at the moment. As long as she understands that we have an agreement, is this acceptable?

TRAICIONADO...I am so glad things are starting to come in place with you and Gemela. She seems to be in the right frame of mind now. But...why is it that SF its so ackward to you? DO you get movies or visions of Gemela with the OM? You are turned off by her? What goes on in your mind?

Anyways, if she is allright with the decision, I guess it should be ok for now.

Myrta

The no SF agreement is no good at all. You both need to keep that up for the health of the marriage. It will start feeling more comfortable.

No I don't think about OM. I can only vaguely remember what he looks like. I have no idea how long I want to have no SF. Not forever. Just a break where there is no pressure to try to get in the mood to have it. Last night was a pretty good night from my POV. We played golf and I played better than I have in a long time. Parred the first hole which was a good sign. I played well for a while then started playing badly. I decided to get a quick kiss from WW before teeing off and I smacked one long right down the middle against a two club wind. So I kept this up for a while. I forgot to kiss WW before one shot and hooked one only about 200 yds in the left rough. I went back for a kiss and hit again (we weren't keeping score) and knocked one 305 yds right down the throat. It was amazing. I almost went into the wadi in front of the green and I would have lost the ball. So I have correlated kissing WW to playing great golf. Don't know how that will look if I go pro. I have never seen that done on TV. She would definitely have to caddy for me.

The whole night was very nice. Hugs, kisses, etc. Went to bed and spooned, went to sleep with WW in my arms, etc. and it was all so easy because we both knew that we could have that closeness without the need for SF. She is convinced there is a mouse in our room so was up all night. I searched everywhere without success but I think the mouse is in the wall. Anyway, pretty much all night long one of us held the other one.

I may be way off so, if I am, I am open to change my opinion but I THINK that SF is more important to the man than the woman in terms of emotional closeness. In that sense SF confuses me. What I want is to be able to be close to WW without the stress of wondering whether SF may be the result or not. I guess the best way to describe it is like dating. I want to think about it in terms of dating WW and letting her open up to the closeness as well without wondering what my intentions truly are. My belief is that SF will happen eventually but I want it to happen when it decides to happen rather than doing it because I think I am supposed to. I hope that makes sense. I am not saying this is permanent or that I have requirements of WW before we return to SF, etc. I just want some freedom from it right now.

I can't explain why this is but I just feel like we can have what seems like a really good day and everything has gone so well and, if we have SF, I get the feeling that all the good that happened during the day was (wasted effort?). I just can't put my finger on it. Is this making any sense at all or I just beed stoopid?

traicionado,

You even put the word THINK in upper case to illustrate your silliness.

Surveys indicate the opposite of the above quote. Generally, to the man it is more physical. If this is not the case, why do some many women complain of not enough foreplay before SF? You never hear that complaint from men do you? To a woman, sex is all about romance and love. Find ways to instill romance in your life. Want some tips? Order a dozen roses and place each one strategically through the home. Buy twelve small greeting cards and write love notes on them. Short notes. Be a tease. Maybe with the first one, tell her how much you love her. Then with the second, remind her how beautiful she is tonight. Then tell her how happy you are going to make her in bed tonight. Hmm.. am I going to be censored for this stuff? Leave a rose and a card on her bathroom vanity. Finally leave one of her pillow with the best note yet. Then cuddle and do nothing but remind her of the notes you left for her. To a woman, all of the foregoing is foreplay. Now get to the physical foreplay. Your goal is to make her forget where she is. You will enjoy rich rewards, my friend.

Now, slap! Stop this silly schoolboy notion of dating your WW. What in the world are you thinking? You are quick to point out when I violated Plan A in the past. Now take it like a man. SF is basic to both husband and wife. No matter what you and WW consider it, it is as basic as life. Quit fighting it.

Well....okay....You obviously have not had young kids around the house in a LONG time.

Actually I did believe that the closeness, romance, etc. was more important to the woman and the physical act more important to the man. Have I been misled?

Traicionado....right after DD, I was not so much into SF with Stanley. But!!! I really loved that he desired me so much, he wanted to have SF 24/7!! If it had been the opposite I would had felt hurt, or offended. I would had thought he did not care about me, that I gross him out, for what I did!

Sex is as important for a woman as it is for a man!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well I have asked her out for a date on Thursday night. We'll see what happens.

Why not try no SF some nights, and SF others. But on the nights with no SF, you can caress, give back rubs, foot rubs, etc.

Women don't like to think the man is ONLY interested in SF. The one thing my WH was good at was non sexual contact. He used to rub my feet with lotion, my legs, back, arms, hands. It was very nice.

Try some different stuff. Once married, we often let things get into a rut - 2 minutes kissing, 3 minutes squeezing the melons, and on to the real thing. I used to be able to almost time it, if I'd taken a stop watch to bed.

This is true. But you can use the kids as an excuse or devise ways to work around them. It's okay if they see the roses. Maybe not the notes depending on what you write. Quit fighting me on this; you know I am right.

And no, traicionado, you have not been misled. Again, if romance and the emotional component of SF was so important to men, why is it that the women are the ones who complain about lack of romance?

ToddAC,

You are COMPLETELY missing the point. It is not explaining the roses lying around that I am worried about. It is DDs picking them up and playing Three Musketeers that concerns me. Kind of hard to have SF after taking the DDs to the emergency room. Just not a real mood setter. Keep in mind we just got DDs out of the emergency room about a week ago so I know something of what I am talking about.

WW loves Bon Jovi CD's. She loves "Bed of Roses". Once I bought three dozen roses, depetaled them and put them all over the bed sheet. I won't explain what happened next. Later, I had to throw out the sheet. That was okay - worth the price - I am just suggesting you don't want to do that with a really good sheet. I didn't know that before. Also, depetaling three dozen roses is serious work. I didn't know that either beforehand.

traicionado,

Why are you being so difficult?

1. Put the roses out of DD's reach.

2. Don't throw them on the bed.

Problem solved.

Three dozen is overkill. Are you trying to buy love or earn it through romantic overtures?

I hate Bon Jovi btw. But then, WW favorite is Rod Stewart.

My experience was that it takes approximately the petals from 3 dozen roses to properly cover a king size bed. WW did not count petals, divide by average number of petals per rose, then divide by 12 and calculate numbers of dozens. She never knew how many were involved. I only mention the number in case anyone reading this thread is ever considering doing it. I am guessing queen size might be about the same number but look a little better. Full size would more likely be only two dozen. Twin size would hardly be worth the effort.

BTW, there is nothing out of DD1's reach. I just found my workshop stereo on the floor this morning. I keep it about 9 feet up. Still curious how she did that.

It's called climbing. They open drawers and use those for steps. I know about ER's BTW. With three boys, I went to the ER ten times between the three of them.

You are really obsessed with those petals on the bed.

That is the point - there was nothing to climb. It is perplexing.

You are way off base. I am not obsessed in the least. I am an engineer by training. A king (American) size bed has a surface area of 48,400 cm2. There are many types of roses. There are new roses, old roses, tea roses, etc. and, as William Shakespeare said, a rose by any other name would have a different number of petals. At least that is what he was cited as saying in my "3117 English literature for engineering majors" course book. Different types of roses vary in size and number of petals but let's make the assumption that a rose petal (not yet bloomed) has an average surface area of approximately 7.2 cm2 and there are 51 petals per rose. Since a rose petal (unless pressed) is never flat, the effective projected area will be less than the true surface area. Let's make a simplification and say this will be about 91.47% for reasonably fresh rose petals.

Okay. Three dozen roses would then have a projected surface area of 12,091 cm2 or 24.98% of the total surface area of the king size bed. In other words, the petals from three dozen roses would cover a full (rounded up of course) one fourth of the bed.

BTW, in the UK, a "king" size bed is actually the equivalent of an American "queen" size. I guess this makes sense in light of the fact that, in the UK, the country is actually run by a queen. Other than that, I can offer no reasonable explanation for the discrepancy. I only mention this because if you happen to be relocating from the US to the UK and just happen to be taking a true King size mattress with you, buy plenty of sheets in the USA and take them with you since you won't find any that fit once you get there. I know because I did this once and had cold feet for a year.

So where on Earth do you get off saying I am obsessing anyway? I think you have some serious issues!

Did you mention that you are an engineer?

My calculaton for an American king-size bed is 40,194 cm2.

believer,

Backrubs are almost a nightly occurrence anyway. WW has a lot of physical problems including two slightly herniated disks. She is generally always in some level of pain and has been for years. This has some impact on the SF situation as well. Sometimes she has gone for weeks barely being able to move. I don't miss SF during those times. In sickness and in health is what I signed on board for. But it does mean that I give lots and lots of backrubs.

I have always tried to cuddle, snuggle, etc. even when SF was not a desire for one or the other of us. I have worked very hard to make sure that I don't just do that as a precursor to SF since about year 1 of the marriage.

WW has never been huge on foreplay. She rushes me generally. That actually has disappointed me many times. Since we have been married, she has never tried to "seduce" me like she did when we were dating. I miss that too. I do believe that WW seems to have a healthy attitude to SF. I have never really seen that she has any "hangups" that you read about so much in magazines.

She used to always want a G&T, screwdriver or two, or something prior and want me to also since day one of our relationship. I guess to relax her but I never asked her about it. We can't (i.e. I won't) do that here so I worry about whether that is something that is a problem for her.

ToddAC,

Is that surface area or projected area. Maybe I should have clarified - pillow top mattress. Sorry for the confusion.

traicionado,

Are you this complicated with WW?

Last night WW went to sleep at 6:30 but I gave her a backrub because she had worked in the garden and was in pain. As I was tucking her in, she said she wanted to get a gardener. I asked why. She said because gardening hurt her back. I asked why she did it and did not ask me to help - at least for the hard work. She said because working in the garden helped occupy her time and give her something to do. I asked why getting a gardener would help. That would save her back but give her much more free time which is not what she wants just put her right back where she was. Getting the gardener would solve one problem but create a far bigger one. I said I would do the gardening. She said she only wants it done a certain way and doesn't want me to do it. I said she does the same with the gardeners. She is not happy with any of their work and fires them (we have had maybe 7 in three years). I will do everything she says the way she wants - all she has to do is show me. She says that will still give her free time in the mornings when I am at work. I say so will getting a gardener. I say to water in the morning (easy on back) and leave harder work for me in the PM and on weekends and she stand over me with a whip making sure I make no mistakes.

I am not complicated. Far from it. Explaining what I do is complicated. I am as simple as they come.

see you are talking! Great!

Hey cc46,

It is not only that. Something has happened to me and I can't explain what it is or why or how it happened. To be honest, I think believer might be praying for me because I have no other explanation. It is almost like I have suddenly developed super powers. I wish I could describe it. I am just positive, upbeat, happy, clear-headed 24/7. Maybe I have been abducted by aliens.

WW took me to work yesterday because it was my day for breakfast (which she made). I normally won't call her at the house but I did because I knew she was at home with DDs. This was about an hour after she had dropped me off. DD1 answered and said WW wasn't home. Had never come back from taking me to work. Well, that can only mean one thing at this time of the day. While I was talking to DD1, WW walked in and got on the phone. I told her I just wanted to call and tell her that everyone raved about her breakfast and couldn't believe she had done it - and had gotten up at 4AM to do it. I did ask where she had been. She said she went right to gardeneing after she got home and had never gone inside. I said that I was concerned because her being absent in the AM usually only meant one thing. She said she knew and apologized. I only mention it because the tone in her voice was sincere and not defensive in the least. It turned out to be a simple conversation with no LB's or DJ's and we left it as it was.

Last night I had her help me put the rope light around the palm tree. She had promised DD1 that she would help her make Playdoh (sic?) even though we have the real stuff already. Everything was out on the kitchen counter and I thought I would help her but realized there was not enough salt. I went and bought salt and marshmallows for DD2 who wanted to roast some. When I got back, WW got on the phone, DD1 got on the TV and I ended up making playdoh all by myself and I am asking "what is wrong with this picture?". At least DD2 gave me a marshmallow so someone still loves me.

Today is going to be a long day and we have a date tonight.

I'll get her to post tomorrow while I do the gardening.

Traic, I've notice you've posted on Idiotville a couple of times then deleted it.

Inquiring minds want to know.........?

Traicionado, I think those things that we can't explain do happen to us BS, just like the WS can't explain what happened to them!

So enjoy, have patience and keep up the good work. Somehow I don't think Gemela will continue posting here. She doesn't seem to feel comfortable. Maybe in the futur.

KiwiJ,

I didn't know what IDIOTVILLE was. One day I was just scanning and I saw something there that struck a chord and thought I had something useful to say. I have since gotten a better understanding of what IDIOTVILLE is.

cc46,

I hope she will post but I won't force it. I will ask however. She truly has been occupied enough that she would not just sit down at the computer for any reason the past few days. Historically, she has spent maybe on day a week on the PC checking emails, etc. so daily activity is not her MO anyway. Anything she can do to maintain NC is fine so if staying busy all day long is what she thinks she needs, great. I just had a dream that I caught her with a phone card. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You are right and I understand your advice that this is when I have to do my very best. Funny thing is - it is so easy. I swear I have super powers.

OH MY GOD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It just hit me - I DON'T have super powers! I think I am in love <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Delusions of grandeur on the super powers.

Believer is praying for you. And don't say anything bad about Idiotville. That is where I do most of my reading.

believer,

I didn't say one bad thing about idiotville now did I.

That's good to hear. I love to read and post there. It is just a place to relax, and not think about all of this crap.

believer,

I understand now what it is. I am just in the thick of battle and I have to spend all my time and energy doing nothing else but think about this mierda.

Traicionado...you are too funny!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Or wiping it off your shoes!

Myrta,

I don't speak Spanish all that well and I don't really know what "mierda" means. All I can infer is that it is something that must be quite large because every time gemela tries to explain it to me, all I am able to understand is that I am only a little piece of it. So it must be really big!

Come on Traicionado! Who's goint to believe you don't know what mierda means?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

the good thing about this forum is that we can say a whole lot of things in spanish that can't be said in english! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, seriously speaking, it's very disrespectful of G to call you that. I don't think you should allow it from now on, and obviously you cannot call her anything similar in any language!

That's one interesting thing about my relationship with my husband, we had a lot of respect for each other in THAT sense. We never called each other ANY of those names. But still he had a typical A which is still going on after 15 months! so respect is no protection for As <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

so if you need any special <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> words in spanish, just let us know. There are many here willing to help out, as usual....

Being in love is good.

Traicionado...you are kidding,n o? You must know, like CC says what "mierda" means. Gemela does not give me the impression that she would use that word with you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
If she does, you should not allow it. Because you two should really have respect for one another. My husband does not allow me to say those kinds of things to him, not even stupid,dumb,nothing !!!!!! Mierda is not a pretty word to call someone!

Myrta

Sorry Myrta,

I was only joking. I know what lots of bad Spanish words mean.


Seriously. WW would never say that to me in any way other than a joking manner. I don't want to give her a bad reputation.

BTW, I learned my Spanish in Maracaibo. I know bad words even WW doesn't know.

Hmm..ok....nice for you to clear that. Gemela seems like a nice girl. I am sure you know lots of bad words in spanish. When americans learn spanish they always learn the bad ones first> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Where is Maracaibo?

Yesterday we ran in a 5K at 7:00 and, if WW had not gotten a back pain and walked for a hundred meters (with only 500M left in the race!) she would have "showed". She was upset all day about that. She is very competitive. We got home and I started doing the gardening but noticed we have a new neighbor. I introduced myself and we talked a bit and then I drove him around our end of camp so he could see where everything was. Got back and did all my gardening chores and I do mean chores. At one point I was 20 feet up in a tree with my 15 foot pole saw (electric chain saw on a pole) cutting tree limbs from over the entrance of the house so WW doesn't have to clean the berries every day. Unfortunately gravity and minor miscalculations both went against me. I am bloodied and bruised. DD1 kept begging me not to die so I promised her I wouldn't. Then it was time to rush to get ready to go to the golf course.

We played but I played reasonably well while WW played terribly. She was frustrated. It is interesting that we played with a neighbor whose wife recently separated and is in USA trying to develop her affair. The interesting part is that the OM in our neighbor's case was playing in the group behind us. I was amazed when I saw him. The guy was frumpy. I could not believe she had an affair with this guy and ruined her family accordingly. Her OM has dumped her BTW. It was still an awkward situation. Oh, and we got a flat tire on our golf cart. Could it possibly get any worse?

When we got back, I started helping DDs and neighbor friends build a "club house" out of all the empty boxes our new neighbor had in his driveway and WW was watering the grass and she said she can imagine that it would be very difficult if her "amiguito" (euphamism for her OM) where still here. I simply said that if he were still here, she wouldn't be. She laughed.

It was getting late so we started getting ready to go out. She had the sand from a dozen bunkers all over her and I had the sand on me from standing down wind of her while she got out of those bunkers so we were showering and I mentioned that the neighbor told me his WW was still in contact with her OM so he had made the decision today to get a D. She was surprised. I told her that I had told the neighbor that, as long as his WW was still in contact with the OM and refused to stop, there was zero hope for their M and that D was now the only option left. Their quasi Plan B had not worked at all. Remember that neighbor WW was gemela's hero when she left here to go back home to "get her thoughts together". What she really left for was to try to develop the A and it backfired. Now she is broke, lost her daughters (their choice), lost the OM and has nothing.

We got DDs bathed and fed and went out to dinner. It was a long day and we were both tired but tried not to show it. We got back to the house and I did break my "no SF" deal. It was going nowhere so we didn't finish. I told WW she seemed tired and she said she was so we stopped. It has never "frustrated" me to not finish SF and this is not the first time. I guess it is good in that if WW wants me to find her desirable and she wants ME to want SF, then I gave her what she wanted emotionally. It is also good that I hopefully may have erased the line I had drawn. I am hoping that there was something good about it I guess is what I am trying to say.

Overall I think it was an okay day. I'll choose to look at the positive side anyway.

The worst part of yesterday is that I discovered ToddAC made all his money dealing crack cocaine. He is so into it that he has to have a special type of accountant to keep up with it. I am seriously disappointed in ToddAC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (just joking OKAY!)

We have no major plans today other than more gardening, 9 holes of golf and I want to watch Kevin getting kicked off American Idol. WW says that was way overdue. I do think gemela will post today. She promised she would.

You have no problems in the ahem department?

I am not sure what you mean? If you are asking if I was not capable of finishing what I started, the answer is no. I was good to go. I could see gemela was not involved and it had been way more than enough time. Up till now I have never come up empty even once in my life. I dread the day. Last night, gemela and I could have kept going for an hour and it never would have gotten any better and, after too long, she starts getting pains in hips or cramps in legs so it becomes painful for her after a while.

If I missed the point of your question, ask again. I'm not all that bright. My mother can attest to that.

Oh, good to hear that. Just checking. My WH started having "problems" at 50, but Viagra fixed that right up.

Then he took off with the OW.

PS - He still has to use V with her - ha-ha, did my heart good.

Up till now, I haven't needed to consider medication. I am sure it will happen some day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Not to worry just yet. Where is Senora Gemela? Hopefully she will post again. She is getting good advice.

I am betting she will post today. It is almost 7AM and I am guessing I won't see her before about 8AM (maybe later).

Is there something I might need to start worrying about before too long? You just put me in a panic!

I was just about to get myself psyched up to get back into "nothing happened for the longest time" mode but now you do have me worried. Did I do something wrong yesterday?

If you were my husband, and didn't finish, I would be very concerned. But you say that is normal for you, so don't worry. We'll see what Gemela has to say.

Okay tracheotomy,

You are accusing me of dealing in crack cocaine??? Where is the world did that come from???? HUH????

Okay all is fair in war. I will now tell everyone how you got me playing that stoopid online drinking game and got me to drink too much and how it lead to my headache I cannot get rid of. So, now you want a truce I bet! Too late the gauntlet has been thrown down!!!

Just kidding folks.

Hey from now on, every time I read one of your posts, I have to go take a shower. Either that or pray...

ToddAC,

You yourself said you had a crack accountant. What else could it be for? Please stop with the "online drinking game". I am getting hammered with PM's on SI. Seriously you cannot drink alcohol. It isn't funny. It will totally mess up your blood chemistry.

believer,

Normal? No not normal. I never stop unless I think or know gemela is in discomfort. It does happen some times and is a function of time. I simply have never put my own wants and desires above hers. Sometimes we can alter things a bit to ease the discomfort but, last night, she was also very tired and sleepy. She told me she was tired so we stopped. I don't think it happens with great frequency but it does happen.

So you are getting hammered with PM's? That is so funny. I have a big possee over there. Wait until I release the second wave of warriors! I haven't had a drop to drink since you had me playing that stoopid game.

Seriously, I quit drinking all together about six years ago. Never had a problem; just decided to try clean living for a while. Look where it got me!! All it took playing that game was two measily little drinks. I am back to not drinking one little bit.

Don't worry because I am not planning on doing anything stupid. I am in a funk. I think the only thing I may do is go get AD. Here we can buy most anything OTC so I will just get what gemela takes.

Yesterday we mostly spent apart. WW slept very late so I made breakfast for everyone and was about to take WW's to her in bed when she showed up. She woke up and smelled the bacon - literally. DD's and friends were building a clubhouse out of empty boxes from new neighbor's move so I took most of AM doing design construction work. They now have a small kitchen and cafe with seating area for two customers, etc. Meanwhile WW painted the back garden gate. I helped her when I needed to - removed hardware, etc. but, for the most part, we spent little time together.

We left DDs with neighbor and played 9 holes. Both played badly but it was pleasant enough. When we got back, we each went to our separate tasks. I was sitting out front watching all the girls play in their clubhose (has karaoke too forgot to mention) and I was thinking to myself - I am just not happy. Why am I doing this? Why am I trying to save a marriage with someone who doesn't love me and is not making me happy and has no desire to make me happy? All the while I am thinking this, I am looking at my DDs and listening to them laugh. I think if I had any more tears left, I would have used them. That is how I felt - just wanted to cry. I guess that describes it best.

WW knows something is not right. I try to put on a happy face for her but it is impossible. Last night she held me in bed as we went to sleep but I am guessing she will get fed up with this too before long.

Neither one of us is happy. Why are we doing this?

As I said, I am not going to do anything stupid. I wasn't even going to post. I am learning to loathe posting. I would much rather sit down and feel sorry for myself. I think that is what I will go do.

Traicionado...how long again since your DD? You know, that feeling of not being happy is there for a long time. It eventually leaves and happiness and contentment settles in. But of course YOU and Gemela have to be sure that you both want that marriage to work out. Dont think that you have to feel happy so fast. This is not an easy thing to do. Recovering a marriage after an Affair is extremely hard work, not for the weak!! You both have to work hard at it, to make it work and be a happy marriage again.

Dont feel sorry for yourself, you dont gain anything by it.
Try to do fun things with each other, golfing, eating out, watching TV, any other thing you find fun. Everything will eventually fall in its place.

Dday was in July 05 and last known contact was January 28, 2006.

When do you know you have come to the conclusion that this is not what you want?

I am hearing a lot of comments out of WW over the past few days that remind me of her during the A.

Examples:

I told her that I liked her as a person. She replied that everyone likes her because she is so nice.

I tell her she is beautiful. She says she is not. Yesterday someone told her she was beautiful and she ate it up. I asked her why she was so beautiful and her reply was that God made her that way.

Pre-affair, she never talked like that. Her words just seem cold now.

Traicionado....when an affair is going on, the OM is always ,always saying how beautiful we are!! Feeding our ego!! Telling us how beautiful, how smart,etc,etc, we are. We fall for it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> unfortunately. Gemela is insecure now, and she was before. She needs to hear this a lot,(that she is the best!!) it makes her feel good. Especially right now!!

When does a couple knows that enough is enough? I guess when you had both really tried to make the marriage work for like a year after DD, and things are still the same. My oppinion!! You cannot be feeling miserable forever, is not fair for YOU or for her!

Like you said, you are in a funk right now, and you are feeling down in the dumps, "down and under" You will come out of this, and be optimistic again. Stanley had many days like that, he was ready to throw in the towel!! It will be two years for us in June 1st, I think we made it!!

P.S. It has not been that long for you. YOu are still in
the wild rollercoaster ride. Many bumps, many ups and
downs. If you both want this marriage, you will get
thru all those bumps and wild turns.

Do I count my year from Dday or last contact?

Well....its suppose to be from last contact. Before that, she was not really working in recovering the marriage.
So its only been a little bit over two months for you and Gemela...Very short time!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Myrta,

How will I ever know that gemela wants the M? What is the indication? I don't think just maintaining NC is the thing. Even after she may decide she no longer is interested in the OM, she still may decide she doesn't want the M. I am dealing with complete opposites here. Every time something goes bad, it turns out great. Every time something starts to go good, it turns out bad.

If things keep on like this till next January, maybe I am not strong enough for that. It is difficult to think of the next 10 months in misery. Nice to have a time limit though. That helps.

It is difficult to be positive and happy all the time like Plan A requires. I know my depression helps nothing and hurts everything. Plan A just does not give a person an opportunity to be human. So far I like cc46's concept of Plan A better than any other I have read.

Well Traicionado...the indication that Gemela wants the marriage and YOU, is that she will happier, she will be more receptive to you. You will know!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It seems like you are giving up on the marriage,when you just begin to try to save it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You have to be strong for the sake of your kids right now! then for you and Gemela. Your little girls will suffer greatly if they see their parents separate. Dont you think

That Plan A is kind of weird if you ask Stanley and me. How can you act "happy" all the time? You had not been thru a pleasant experience. I mean, you can try, to be as nice as possible, but I am sure any normal human being will get angry or sad a lot of the times!!Just try to treat as nice as possible and with love (if you still do) and try to do it. If you cannot do it, Trai, time will tell!
"No hay mal que dure 100 anos, ni cuerpo que lo resista" Did you understand that famous spanish saying? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Gemela seems to be in the right frame of mind by reading her latests post. She wants to be where she is, there in Saudi! So, just give it a good try!!

Myrta

Have you heard from Todd? Is he doing allright? He has not posted since last night!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

You are much too early in this to give up. Your wife seems to be going through withdrawal. She is exactly like the usual WS. She has lots of complaints, and they seem to change from day to day. But that is how they all are. Don't give up.

Have not heard from ToddAC Friday on any channels. Last post on SI was still about blazing headaches and I have not gotten any emails in a day. I have two emergency contacts if I need them but sometimes I think his headaches get the better of him. His MRI is not till Monday.

Entiendo Español mayormente bien. Es la primera vez que había escuchado tal dicho pero lo entiendo. Ayer acordé a gemela que me había prometido decirme si tiene alguna queja. Me dijo que, por el momento, no se puede quejar de nada y está contenta sobre todo.

Déjame ver que me está diciendo believer.

I don't know why I get like this. I really don't. Is there just something fundamentally wrong with me? Do all BH's suffer this?

Yep, it feels awful for months and months. Get used to it.

Oh my gosh, Traicionado...you should had seen my husband the first months after DD. He was suffering so so much,he lost so much weight, he aged so much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It was horrible to see him like that. Seeing him that way, made me stronger and more resolved to win him back and save my marriage.

You will be sad,angry, ready to give up for a long time. But it gets better, and you realize that it was worth it.

Dont give up so soon. YOu dont sound like a quitter(?) I dont know if I spelled that right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Good luck....

P.S. I hope Todd is not suffering with his headaches so'
much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You should try contacting him if he does
post.

I forgot to say,,,,my husband looks great now!! He gained most of his weight back, and he looks much better than ever!!
He is very handsome and young looking again. And he seems to be very happy with his decision to keep me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Myrta,

Cuando WW regresó de los EEUU, yo había perdido 10.2 KG en tres semanas. Tuve que ponerme una toalla bajo de mis jeans para que no se me caieron cuando me fuí a buscarla en el aeropuerto.

No me reconoció. Llegando a la casa, le enseñé que entraba en sus jeans talla 27. ¡Horrible!

Antes de este asunto, nunca tenía canas. Ahora estoy lleno. No se me van a quitar jamas. ¿Quizas Grecian Forumla?

Believer,

Just full of good news as always! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I went to the dentist last week. I remember he said it was going to hurt just a little bit. No seriously, I guess I can be miserable for a while if there is a purpose to it. Yesterday while I was watching the kids play in their new temporary clubhouse, I listened to them laugh and was thinking that I would prefer they keep laughing if at all possible.

I just see gemela still mooning over OM and, while I understand and accept that, I don't see her getting anywhere near committing to the marriage. I just thing she is trying not to burn her bridges - yet.

Well, I'm going to post the Love Must Be Tough excerpt that I have already posted twice today. I don't think you will be able to do a good Plan B, which is the next step - several months from now. So here it is - be thinking about having a letter ready, but keep it on the back burner for now.

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one’s life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a “stranger”… a competitor ... a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let’s look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to “fool around” or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I’m sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, “I think I’ll die if you don’t marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don’t turn me down,” etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, “Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I’ve only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I’ll go straight out and kill myself!”

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to “sell himself” to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn’t love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: “John [or Diane], I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn’t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I’m aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I’m going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He’ll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.”

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can’t believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn’t necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.

“But there must be a catch,” he thinks. “It’s too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she’ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She’s really weak, you know, and she’ll crack under pressure.”

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously “grabby” lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, “How can I get out of this mess?” he now asks, “Do I really want to go?” Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.
This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace.” Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture.

Believer,

Now I am going to be guilty of doing what Bigger says I always do - read into a post what I want to.

I can see from the excerpt you posted that it might be best if I not only did not discourage contact between WW and OM but actually encouraged it. Wouldn't WW then be free to make a more objective choice?

WW still has two suitcases out and available so she can pack on a moment's notice. I am not sure what behaviors you are suggesting I change so will mull on this one a bit. You and Myrta have me going two different directions this morning - at least that is how I am reading it.

Hey Traicionado,

you know I think I know what's wrong with your situation. It's YOU. You should be focusing on yourself! That's plan A and that's what you should be doing because the A is not "strictly" over because Gemela may still be thinking of OM and hasn't really committed herself to make the marriage work. At least that's the impression I get.

So you should be in plan A and working on YOURSELF and not concentrating so much on what SHE's doing. You CANNOT change her, she has to do that herself. I really think you have to work on yourself, concentrate on yourself and STOP watching what's happening with her. She has her own times.

Detach a little from trying to be in recovery because I don't see that you two are, yet.

Just my opinion, remember I don't have much "experience" .

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are right. It sounds right anyway. I get back to what I posted a way long time ago (couple of days maybe?) that this part of the process is not well documented. This quagmire of a never-ending Plan A/failure to commit to recovery/infinite withdrawal. There is a lot about how to start, a lot about how to end but not a lot about this vacuum I find myself in at the moment.

I still think you may be on to something. I am just not entirely sure I know how that translates into actions all the time. I need a better guidebook. I can't find much useful in SAA to help me at this moment. I have read the four rules again but I can't go much beyond that. I think I am just going to shut up for a while and let things just happen as they happen.

I think believer may be right also in that I should maybe give up on the idea of the M and just let fate take its course. If the M works out - great, if not - great.

I do still love gemela. I have not yet lost that.

BTW, crying is fine. It's actually very therapeutic in my opinion. let me tell you my experience.

after d day I cried for about a year. Most of the time nobosy noticed, in spite of all the crying I managed to function quite well. I enjoyed crying, it seemed to let out the sadness, which was the main emotion I felt. Never got to a true anger stage. Crying made me thirsty, but that's OK.

Anyway, after more than a year I was still crying very frequently but my main eotional problem was that I couldn't ENJOY my new job, and I should have been enjoying. I could do it just fine, but I wasn't enjoyingit. So being an MD, I knew how I could solve that. I went to see a psychiatrist and told him my story and of course I cried as I always did in those days. So he gave me ADs because it had been more than a year (that's the period they consider normal grieving) and I've been enjoying the job ever since. But I stopped crying. And I missed that. I missed letting the sadness out.

Luckily on my 20th wedding anniversary I went to talk to a priest and HE has so much empathy I cried again, and I cried for 3 days. This was 10 days ago. Now I cry when I feel touched by kindness. But I'm glad I can cry again.

Before d day I rarely cried.

So that's my experience with crying. I am now comfortable with it.

I find I can't cry right now. I want to at times but I can't. I try to and can't. I am even a failure at crying.

Traicionado,

YOU ARE NOT IN RECOVERY so do not focus on the marriage at this moment. CONCENTRATE ON YOU!

that means that you rethink the kind of person and husband and father you would like to be and WORK to make that true. DON't DO IT FOR GEMELA, DO IT FOR YOU. for a little while, put SAA aside.

If you were in plan B, like I am, it would be easier to realize what you have to do, because the WS is not around. It's still hard not to try to find out what the WS is thinking or doing or what effect what we BS are doing is having on them. But finally you get it. You can be a BETTER person , wife or husband, mother or father, employee engineer etc and that's what you set your sights on. You detach from the WS because the tie you had has been severed.

That's what you have to do. Work on yourself and STOP trying to force a relationship that isn't there at this moment.

This doesn't mean that you ignore Gemela. Because she is there with you (which is different in plan B) you have to be the best husband, but you do not interpret or try to interpret or react to HER. She will have to FIX herself and if she needs your help she will have to let her know. Be there for her if she needs you, let her know that she CAN count on you WHEN SHE"S READY, but in the meantime, you are working on YOURSELF.

I'm not very good at expressing myself, i think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You express yourself just fine. If you have any doubts, just write to me in Spanish. I'm okay with that. The one who is having problems with expression is me.

What I am stuck on is what appears to me to be a fine line between being a "great husband" and "detachment". I have to detach myself from gemela a bit but too much detachment becomes almost an LB. This is my current struggle. I know I am not explaining this very well. I know that Plan A is about me. I also know that I have to detach myself from the M. But I come close to apathy at times. Very close.

Listen, you have to sit down and write down the things you think you should do. For example: DD's homework. So you come home, and BECAUSE IT'S IN YOUR PLAN, you happily and merrily go about helping DD with homework. The key here is that you HAPPILY and MERRILY do it.
You play Golf? ok, PLAN your weekly schedule and tell Gemela that those days and hours are the ones that you will be playing this week. You'd love it if she joined you. Then you go ahead and happily go play your game. You must be honest about these things. Don't do them unless you are convinced that YOU want to be that person.

Is that understandable?

btw, "canas" are sexy!

Okay. But you should read the quote in your own signature line. You do realize you are arguing with an idiot, don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, gemela is the only one who plays golf alone. I only ever play if it is an activity she wants to do with me. I know you just used that as an example but I mentioned before that I don't take time for myself except between 4AM and 6AM. Anyway, I take your point. Thanks.

Traicionado you are not an idiot. You are too intelligent for your own good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

so what you have to do is follow the basic instructions: be yourself, look inside your soul and see what YOU want to do and do it! Simple. At this point that's what it's about. YOU BEING YOURSELF AT YOUR BEST! What you should aim for is being happy and as long as Gemela is NOT committed you depend on yourself to BE HAPPY.

It's simple but complicated. But for example, I'm sure that hurting Gemela doesn't make you HAPPY, so you won't do it. See?

But what if the "canas" are on your back? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

(Just kidding - I don't really have canas on my back - I dye those)

Hey traicionado!
I don't have experience with "canas" on backs, I'll think about it and let you know!

What time is it now over there? I'm totally lost with time differences. It's 9:45 am here

No I have no back hair. Thank goodness. I'd get it waxed if I did.

That puts me six hours ahead of you and, since you are in LA (and speak Spanish), that limits the choice of countries you could be in. Hmmm. No "gaucho" or tango jokes are in order then.

......

I don't mind telling people where I'm from, but this is a small population and I've very easily identified not only because of my profession, the languages I speak AND the situation, because I don't hide it at all

Just don't want it to be on here

You have been gardening a bit lately. I guess you must be a really bad gardener. The type that puts down seeds in the morning and then expects flowers before noon. Not happening. Good things come slowly. And believe me – from where you were you have good things coming your way.

From what I can read from your posts and Gemela’s (as translated by Babel fish) you two are on the right path. Remember the Bigger talk? One of the main purposes there is to try to get both parties to walk together along the same path. At the moment you two are walking in the same direction. Probably on parallel paths. Carry on with some slight improvements and soon you will be walking on the same path.

I know you have issues with the 15 hour rule. For many women time spent with family is time spent together. So if the best you can do with your wife is, say, 8 hours per week then fill in the missing 7 with family time. That means you and wife in same area but you maybe helping DD with homework. That might all of you in board games. That might be all four making, setting the table, eating and clearing up after dinner. Remember the time with W is not forced time. You don’t have to trudge off to the golf course to finish the compulsory 9 just to be together.

What’s this Plan B talk? For you Plan B is not an option. You will probably react exactly like I did when I caught my fiancé. I kicked her out of my life. Plan Z if you will. I for one will lean over backwards for Plan A but once it reaches Plan B stage I see it more as a period of recovery for me rather than a period of giving the relationship a chance.

Keeping your mind in “what if” and worst case scenarios is not constructive. Sure – sit down and make some plans and have some thoughts about what-ifs. Then shelf them. I guess you have health and life insurance. Did you sit for hours thinking of “what ifs”? What if a meteor hits me, what if I get shot, what if an elephant sits on me? Doubt it. Probably just bought the policy and don’t dwell on it. Do the same with your Worst Case plans. Make them and shelf them. Don’t dwell on them.

And honestly – for a long time the OM has been a moot issue. If your wife leaves it will not be for OM but because she is rejecting you. So now you are competing against YOU not the OM.

T - The reason I posted the Love Must Be Tough thing is for you to realize that you do have other options. Right now, you are still in Plan A, and that is where you need to be. Around July 4 (Independence Day), you can start the tough love thing. Plan B would be difficult in your situation.

That is the day where you let Miss Gemela know that you are not the warden, and if she finds living with you so objectionable, she is free.

Right now she is at that withdrawal from the fantasy point where she sees lots of faults in YOU, but not in herself.

I think Traicionado and Gemela are in recovery. They are just in the early stages of recovery and it does not show. But they are crawling thru...

Gemela is in withdrawal right now, but she is, where she is supposed to be. She is doing pretty well to be so early since last contact with OM.

Traicionado has to be patient and hang in there. He cannot lose hope so early in the "game"!

Myrta

Hey traicionado? whay have you abandoned this thread?

How are things?

Just following your advice.

How do you feel? notice any changes? In yourself or Gemela?

No I don't notice any changes. Gemela is pleasant enough. We don't fight but then we haven't fought in a long time. I think you are absolutely right. I think it has taken me a long time to figure this out but I guess I was trying to work really hard trying to rescue a relationship and marriage that is already dead. I still love gemela but finally understand now that she doesn't love me and is never going to and probably never really did to begin with.

I am still working on my best Plan A but now I am only doing it for me - or trying to any way. I guess nothing has really changed except that I think I have lost hope. Maybe that is good in a way. Without hope there is no disappointment.

I read a thread yesterday where some MB expert said that almost no marriages ever recover from Plan A and I have had several people say I will not be able to do a Plan B so that has also given me more to think about.

The day before yesterday was a really hard day. I got up early (lots of work) and started to call a taxi to take me but I woke gemela up instead. We talked for about an hour so I did not get in early as I needed. That was fine. I preferred we talk. I think that is what still concerns me. I have said that the only requirements I have are NC and communication with me. So far I see no evidence she has violated NC. She does not communicate with me even though she had promised she would. Without communication, I can't see us getting anywhere.

I did make a decision though. If I ever catch her break NC again, that will be the last time. We will immediately separate and file for divorce. I have not told her that. I don't need to. I think she fully understands it already.

I don't think I am giving up - at least not yet. But I do know that I am beginning not to care that much one way or the other. Somewhat apathetic to the whole recovered marriage thing maybe. I don't know. Maybe in a few more months gemela will begin to get over the OM and will take more interest in the M. I don't have any idea. I feel like I am hitting her tennis balls and she won't hit back. My basket of balls is running low.

Traicionado....You have to understand that your wife is behaving pretty accurate and natural after coming out of an affair. The fact that she is showing No love right now to you does not mean she does not feel that way. Traicionado, it takes a while,sometimes short,sometimes long,before a WW gets those emotions that she felt for OM out of her system. Your wife is pretty young, it could take her a bit long. She knows the OM is no good for her. She wants to try to make it work with you. YOu have to be more talkative with her, you have to show her you want to keep her and that you love her.

It seems like you could be somewhat depressed and thats why the apathy is setting in so fast. You should be in a frenzy right now, trying to make your wife fall back in love with you. Your wife is not going to break the NC agreement . I dont think she has any plans of running away, or calling the OM. She wants to see reasons to stay there,
for you and your girls.
Try to be more positive and happy with her Traicionado. You love her, no? If you dont, then you should change your signature at the end of all your posts!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I know you do,so please try to have more hope for your relationship and marriage. YOu have many years already with Gemela and two little girls to think about!

Myrta,

I have been doing my best up till now and I have no plans to change that. cc46 is right. Plan A is about me and gemela be stuffed. I don't mean that in the way it sounds. I mean that gemela cannot dictate my Plan A. She could influence it if she were to fill out the EN survey or, at the very least, communicate with me.

Yes I probably am a little depressed. I don't have a lot to be happy about right now except my DDs. They make me happy. That is why I prefer to spend time with them more so than gemela.

What do you mean Gemela cannot dictate your Plan A? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
And what do you mean by you and Gemela been stuffed?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I mean Plan A is about me being a better husband and father. I am no longer going to pretend we are happily married. Gemela is not interested in discussing what her problems or issues have been previously. She is not interested in talking at all. Therefore I have to set my own course. If she does not want to participate, I have to do the best I can with what I have. That is all I am trying to say. Don't read too much into it. I already said I did not mean it the way it sounded. I just don't have a better way to say it.

I'll give some examples:

1) bought WW flowers a couple of days ago. Wish I hadn't.
2) Took her out to dinner. Wish I hadn't.

She is not interested in being with me. She is not interested in romantic gestures from me. Anything I try to do romantically drives her further away. I see it every time. It appears that me being too nice to her is what makes her more anxious to leave. Call me crazy but that is my perception.

After the Affair, NO ONE is happily married. Thats why you have to work so hard to achieve that. My husband wanted to give up many,many times, trust me. It was scary.....but we did the BEST possible, to make it thru those first months,because we knew it will eventually get better.

The problems or issues pre=Affair are very common for most WWs. Our perception is that we are missing something, we are going thru issues, childhood. Maybe your wife was feeling overwhelmed with the girls,Saudi Arabia,too much time on her hands or any other thing.
The thing is ,that she is out of the Affair today, and she is very willing to make it work. You have to take this opportunity to make your marriage work again. She is participating, Traicionado. She could leave Saudi Arabia and go to Mexico, if she so wishes. She wants to stay there to make it work!!

She feels undeserving of those attentions. I felt that way too, it lessens with time. YOu have to keep on showing her that you love her. YOu know....I used to be not so receptive with those types of showings of love from my husband, but I loved them at the same time!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I felt so wanted ,so loved, so important. Thats whats all about!

I am not denying she could leave any time. I am not denying she is choosing to be here because I have never tried to keep her from leaving.

I am saying that I get a negative reaction from her every time I try to do anything that is in the slightest bit romantic. I am like a dog being house-trained. I do something, get swatted for it, eventually I learn to stop doing it - hopefully before I need to replace the carpet.

I do love her. I tell her that. I show her that in ways I can. Romance is something that pushes her away.

Yes, that hurt Stanley a lot too. It broke myheart ,but I did pushed him away with my reactions . Just do things but in a more cool kind of way. NOt looking needy or clingy. I hated to see my husband clingy and needing me so much. It scared me, to tell you the truth. He was not like that before the Affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Myrta,

Rest assured that I am still totally interested in saving my marriage, if at all possible. I have not thrown in the towel yet. I do see some brilliance in what cc46 has told me. I am totally confused by tough love but am working on trying to understand it because it seems to conflict with SAA somewhat. Maybe that is just because I don't fully understand it. To be honest, I am somewhat confused overall. Probably a little depressed too but I think several of you have shown me a path out of it.

I don't agree though that, if gemela leaves, she will go to Mexico. I think if she leaves, it will be straight for OM. Just my opinion. There is nothing for her in Mexico. At least with OM, she believes she will find peace and happiness. If she goes to Mexico, she loses everything - and I am not talking about the DDs. I am talking about love, respect, happiness, self-worth - everything she values.

Sheesh! I slept through this whole conversation! I'm sorry! But I do have to sleep when it's night!


Traicionado, I think that you are NOW reacting just as you should. Before you were on a quest to save your marriage as though it were a mission, and that's great! I wish more BS could face the first stage that way. Like Bob did.

But when you've done everything you could and the OM "is no longer around", exposure has occurred etc. what are you left with? I think that you have a wife who is very confused, has decided to stay with you, but does not give up the OM in her mind, and everuthing seems to stall. This is my impression.
Nothing happens.

So this is the hard part. I know how you feel. But one thing I've learned here is that feelings change from day to day and moment to moment. Your committment won't. Your ove won't, you just don't feel it. So please don't tell me you have lost HOPE. That is the worst thing that can happen. Don't lose hope. It only depends on YOU. YOU CAN HAVE HOPE IF YOU WANT TO HAVE HOPE. It depends on your faith, belief systems, and probably a ton of other stuff, but for me it is the most IMPORTANT single feeling or belief involved.

I haven't lost hope of a successful ending to this story and by that I don't mean recovering my marriage because I have changed and I have serious doubts about wanting my H back, but he may change too, so who knows.

So please have hope, based on Dr. Harley's experience with thousands of couples and marriages, the experiences you have read here, and many others who say the same thing that Dr. Harley says (believe me I researched, and that's my job!).

So where are you? First you have to believe you are in a plan. It is very important that you convince yourself that you are in a plan, and not just trying things out or going with the flow.

2nd. According to Dr. Harley, when the BS starts to lose their love for the WS it's best to go to plan B. (And in that sense I usually agree with Lemonman) but in your case I don't think you should. I believe you have missed one very important part of plan A which is to do it for yourself. Because it is important that the WS see that you can be a great person no matter WHAT they do or say.

You haven't got it yet. You bought Gemela flowers. and now you regret it. WRONG. You should have done it because YOU wanted to and whatever her reactionyou should have been happy about it. That's plan A. That's YOU being a great person, see?

Who cares what she thinks or does, UNTIL SHE STARTS WANTING TO BE INVOLVED and at that point you will start recovery.

Have to run to work... I'll try to continue later. Sorry

I think ADs would help you. Things have been going on for too long. Think about it.

I did buy the flowers because it is what I wanted to do. I expected no reaction out of WW one way or the other. I regret doing it because it seems romantic gestures are abhorrent to her and make her uncomfortable. I did buy the flowers for me. I regret the discomfort it cause her. Even so, point taken.

Yes, it is starting to sink in. I do understand what you are saying. That is why I made the comment earlier about gemela "getting stuffed". That is what I was trying to get at. I don't care what her reaction is. She can be positive or negative. It can't affect my behavior if my behavior is genuinely "me". I think Myrta missed my point, slapped me pretty good and left me smarting all day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I am resistant to AD's. I am not saying no - just I am resistant. WW takes cipralex. Is that any good? I can maybe buy it OTC here. Don't know. Tried to go yesterday but I just got unlucky enough to hit the pharmacy right at prayer time.

Hi Traicionado,

Sorry I'm back only 12 hours later! I can't post at work although since I have some posts sent to my e mail address I do get to read them if I have time!

I did say you were intelligent! You do get the point.

Now the next step is to try to actually be HAPPY! I know, sounds crazy, but the truth is that it all depends on oneself. So if you decide to try to be happy and focus on things that make you happy, you can act happy!

Even for a little while at a time. It just helps to know that it can be done and hopefully it will become permanent.

I have weeks I'm really happy! It helps to experience nature.
If you could see where Still Seeking lives, you would probably understand how he is so wise and calm and happy! It's really beautiful.

I don't know what kind of natural places or phenomena you have over there...

I can act happy. I can be happy with my DDs. I cannot be happy with WW. I try but cannot. Let's forget about gemela, forget about the affair, forget about this HPV that is in never-ending outbreak and is keeping me in constant discomfort.

Let's say I am not married. I am dating a girl. I love this girl but not matter what, I know she doesn't love me and is in love with someone else. Can I be happy when I am with this girl? If I didn't love this girl, it might make it easier to be happy when I am with her.

Maybe the trick to being happy with gemela is to not love her.

Natural phenomena? Let's see. We have sand. And then there is some other sand. Sometimes the sand moves from here to over there. Sometimes it moves back. Sometimes it won't and we shovel it back.

I can see that you are not happy today. I'm sorry, I wish I could help...

so tell me, what are the things you like...

By the way, it's ok to feel bad

Tomorrow may be a great day!

cc46,

Can you honestly tell me that what WW is going through is normal? That she is so madly in love with OM even now? So head over heels for a guy that she truly did not know that much about? I say she didn't because she didn't know things like his nationality, the truth about his parents, etc. I know that the only thing that matters is what she believes but she just can't seem to let this go. Is there a chance this will ever end? What am I waiting for? Is this something all WW's do and is it something they eventually get over with time?

What makes me happy?

1) My DDs
2) Fixing things for my DDs (because they break a lot of things)
3) Standing on a dune or jebel with my eyes closed and feeling the wind until the point that I feel the wind go through me and I become a part of it and I am no longer there.
4) Building things
5) Riding my Harley
6) Running
7) Christmas
8) Weight-lifting
9) Making computer games for kids
10) Riding my Harley (did I mention that already?)

Oh, I can't believe you got her to post on tear's thread. Good for you.

TRAICIONADO...Your wife's emotions right now are pretty normal. Why can't you believe that? I was like her, and many others here. We went thru all those crazy feelings for the OM, thinking we were in love, but we were not!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

YOu have to give your marriage a good hard try and time will tell you. If after eight months maybe a year, things are still the same, then I would re-consider the situation. Right now , is way too early to think everything is lost.

I dont know why can you believe me, I am a FWW, and my husband and I have a good successfull marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

For your first year, did Stan-ley never have any doubts? I was just now making everyone pancakes for breakfast and the thought occurred to me that I am trying to convince WW to stay in a marriage she does not want. Somehow that seemed wrong and it made me feel bad. Some days I have hope and believe I am doing the right thing for all of us. Other days I think I am being unfair to WW. Today is a other day.

BTW, forgot one. For some unexplained reason, oreos seem to make me happy too. Let cc46 know that, will you?

Traicionado...Stanley had many doubts the first year!!! Many,many....he had horrible days, and he had great days. He would ask me, if I was sure I was in love with him. He told me that I was welcome to go and be with OM, and he would bless the union <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. He told me many things, that I wish he had not, but he did. I stuck with him, because, I knew he was my love, he was the man that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with,not an OM that I just met. A man that had no values or integrity. I err big time, but I saw the light, and I am so glad I did, and that my husband believed in our love!

T,
I don't think there is anything "normal" about all this. In my opinion, people who fall into the "common" infidelity situations (what I mean is not people who have serious neurosis or even psychosis with important sexual components)actually do go through a sort of "mental illness". It's like other mental illnesses, depression for example. All of us have been "depressed" at some point in our lives because of loss of loved ones, loss of a job, failure etc but if we are "normal" we eventually get over it. Can you think of a time in your life when you were "depressed" over something? And try to remember what you thought and did during that period... And then one day you started looking at things differently and eventually you got back to normal, enjoying what you couldn't during the period you were depressed, looking towards the futur again and looking forward to things again.

That's normal. If after a certain period of time (for "depression" due to some life circumstance it is about a year) you aren't getting back to normal, or other behaviours surface then it is considered a "disease". And can and should be treated because there are excellent results.


In my very, very humble opinion "normal" infidelity is a "disease" which starts with fantasies when a person, the futur WS, has problems and cannot or will not try to solve them. So the futur WS has self esteem problems, for example, and looks outside their marriage for the solution, or is preyed upon by people who instinctivelt look for these kinds of situations etc.

All of us go through these experiences, you and I have done it dozens of times I'm sure, but we have probably stopped the fantasies and pulled ourselves back to reality because we are strong. We grasp "our values" our morals and our committments and even if we don't FEEL good, we know that we are doing the right thing because our FEELINGS WILL CHANGE and soon, so we do not go with our FEELINGS at that moment.
And eventually we are glad that we didn't and recognize that we want the life we have and are happy with our spouses and our kids again etc.

People who are not so strong, take one more fatal step in their fantasy world and then I think in many cases it starts snowballing into what becomes a full blown affair!

So when infidelity does occur, you have a WS who is "mentally" very altered and who's control over the situation is basically nil. I'm not going to look at the OP because that's a different angle and WE BS shouldn't waste any time or feelings for or against the OP because we have to concentrate on our S and our marriage.

Exposure, confrontation can shock the WS back into reality. That is quite common, thank God. And those As end on d day or shortly thereafter and the WS REGRETS what they have done almost inmediately.

In other cases, unfortunately too many, the WS is either too weak or has a very entrenched fantasy, and does not end the A, and that's when the BS only choice is to wait it out. According to most people who work with infidleity this period is approximately between 6 months and 2 years. (this is in my scientific and medical opinion very possible because mental "illnesses" are measured in "long" periods, not like other diseases. For example, hepatitis A is a disease which lasts 1 month, but it can be shorter like 2-3 weeks or last a little longer but if a case of hepatitis A lasts longer than 3 months you would have to look for another illness or reason for it not being cured. It would not be a normal hepatitis A. for mental things the shortest periods are about 6 months.

Have to run to work. I'll write later

I think that when a WW or WH does not fall in love with the BS, is because that transient "abnormality"of the affair has realistic components. Maybe the marriage was already in distressed, way before the onset of the Affair. Maybe there is some abuse within the marriage and the WW falls out of love with their BS. Or maybe, sometimes, the BS, does not put all his efforts in snapping their WW out of the fantasy of the Affair. Exposure is not the "key" thing to end the affair, sometimes it makes the marriage come to an abrupt end right then and there. My husband did not exposed my affair to anyone, but it ended nonetheless. And I am completely sure, and he is too, that it will not re-kindle again.

What made our marriage work again, is because we both put joint effort in trying to recover . JUst because I was showing sadness, or I was not receptive to him, that did not dissuade him from keep on trying. Of course we put some "time limits", because he was not going to be FOREVER trying to make me see the light . If after a reasonable time,(no more than a year,I think) Gemela does not snap out of her fantasy, then is a reality that they both have to face and take measures to do something else. But as of now, I think she is doing her best,as her withdrawal goes thru her body and mind. She needs to see passion from Traicionado, even if she does not receive his attentions like he would like her to.

Well, it's either that, or yer dealing with someone who just doesn't give a poop. Nothing justifies an affair, but that doesn't mean it's not important to understand what made the choice seem like a reasonable alternative to the WS.

Anyway, that's the way I see it. That's pretty core to my understanding of infidelity.

Naturally you wanna make allowances for someone who legitimately has a 'problem', and I also believe that 'mistakes' happen. I'd believe a ONS could be a mistake, but a whole affair... there's more at play there.

I´m writing this at work because otherwise I may never get back to the subject.

So we were at the point where the BS learns of the existence of the A and the WS isn´t strong enough to end it at that very moment. Here is where Dr. Harley´s plans come in. They are really brilliant.

Plan A means using certain weapons to destroy the fantasy of the affair, mainly exposure, and at the same time getting the BS “in shape” because otherwise there is nothing attractive to go back to.
It is also a good way to begin the new marriage based on more knowledge about relationships and better ways of dealing with problems.
YOU HAVE TO GIVE plan A a chance to work. This is where there are many different opinions. From my point of view Dr. Harley has said that plan A should last as long as you are not losing love units in a big way. So that means it is different for each situation.
Others think you should do plan A for at least 6 months, some for less, some for more etc.

However long it is, I do believe that, for the same reasons I stated above for mental events, that it should be measured at least in weeks. A 3 day plan A has no meaning. 3 weeks is probably the shortest plan A that might have an impact.
BTW “the fog” is the term we use on MB to describe the mental state of confusion, denial etc that affects all the WS and also the BS in many cases. I BELIEVE it is a temporary altered state of mind, and it´s REAL.

If given some time, (at least 3 weeks), exposure and an attractive BS, the affair is still going on, it will probably have to die “naturally”, which, as I said before, can take between 6 months and 2 years (according to the experts). That is where brilliant plan B comes in, because any other way of waiting for the affair to die so that the marriage has a chance, erodes the BS´s love, respect etc for the WS, and it also probably prolongs the A because contact and drama fuel the A.

Now what has all this have to do with you?

I don´t recall if you were on MB soon after d day, I have the impression you started posting quite a while later, when the OM was already out of the country. If my memory is correct your d day was quite a while ago (oct or nov?) so I can imagine you are very tired of all this. You have been VERY patient.

The thing is I don´t really know what happened between d day and the moment when you started posting. What I think I have understood is that you exposed and the OM left the country effectively ending the physical aspect of the A but not the EA.
My interpretation of what then happened, only from what Gemela and you have posted is that the EA continued on Gemela´s part and you were patiently waiting for it to end. I´m not sure you were really doing plan A, because I have no details of what went on between you during that time until you decided that maybe the exposure hadn´t been enough and asked about exposing to your FIL.
I think that maybe there was too much relationship talk, YOU concentrated too much on the OM, you were concentrating on your MARRIAGE while Gemela was probably in a full blown EA. This is JUST MY INTERPRETATION, I may be totally wrong, I´m not an expert or a specialist and I´m only giving you my impressions because you ask for them (didn´t you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )

So what´s happening now? I think Gemela has been in NC for a few weeks BUT is only just starting to come out of the fog. And when I say this, I mean just a few days. I believe she´s only now starting to realize what happened. So in the next few weeks I hope progress will be faster. That´s all I will say about Gemela because I post to her for her on her thread.

I don´t think you have really done your part of plan A, so now´s a good moment to concentrate on YOU.
Are you a person YOU admire? Are you a person YOU respect? Are you the father that you dreamed of being? Are you the father you want your girls to remember?
And last but not least are you the husband that Gemela needs and wants? (according to Gemela of course. It should not be what YOU think that G needs or wants)

So while you concentrate on finding out those things about yourself, I would suggest you act good, be nice, enjoy the enjoyable things, go feel the sand, ride your harley, play with the girls and BE THE PERSON YOU WANT TO BE. Do not try to interpret Gemela´s actions or words, unless she asks you for help or wants to talk about the M etc, that is unless she begins talking of recovery.
I sound like I know what I´m talking about! Sorry, it´s not supposed to be that way, I´m not an expert, I´m sort of thinking out loud. Actually, don´t pay any attention to me if you think it doesn´t help.
OK, back to work and I´ll be posting this tonight when I get back home.

Okay yes I am beginning to understand. Slowly. But surely.

Gemela brought a copy of SAA back with her from the USA shortly after Dday so that is where I started. Even before she came back, I read through all I could find which was on survivinginfidelity.com. Gemela came back assuring me the A was over. I found out that was a lie. She assured me that she would ned it. That was a lie. I had an "incident" with the OM which resulted in him losing his job and being deported. I did not initiate it. I had left him alone until he made a huge mistake and then I stopped caring what gemela said and ran him off. I get the full blame for that from gemela even though I never started the incident - I just finished it.

I began posting on SI for a while but was recommended ny someone to leave there and come here. I am extremely glad I did. I won't go into why.

I admit I did not fully understand the focus of Plan A until you explained it to me finally.

I think yesterday in Bahrain turned out to be a really good day overall for most concerned. I did buy AD's OTC so started taking them yesterday. I will say I made a comment to WW that was not meant to be hurtful in any way. Just my sense of humor but I can see now that she took it personally and I very much apologized for it - very very much. We were in a shopping center buying shorts for DD1, had "frescati's" and were walking out. I saw a really nice blouse in a window that I thought might be nice for WW. I stopped to look at it. WW stopped too and started looking. I didn't say anything. (keep in mind that what I am writing took place in the span of about 5 seconds) I was thinking about maybe going to get her to try it on. Then I am thinking that buying a blouse for WW is maybe not really what I should be doing right now. Then I notice the boulse next to it is a camiseta con tirantes and I realize that is what WW is honed in on. Now I realize that if I mention anything about the blouse, she is going to want to try on the one with tirantes and I understand that this will eventually lead to an argument so I turn and start walking again with her and DDs. Then she makes the comment about whatever it was she was staring at (I have no clue what she actually saw because I was not looking at it). She half laughed about what she was and said it was "entrada facil". It just popped out of my mouth. No DJ or LB intended. It is just my sense of humor. We make half-jokes about the A quite a lot. It is really the only time we ever touch the subject - in a joke. But with no ill-will intended, I said "que me importa ya?". Big mistake. Anyway, I crawled all over myself apologizing.

The day was okay overall. I focused on DDs. Originally I had planned the day to get baby-sitting so that WW and I could have the day alone. She was not able or not interested to get babysitting so we made it a family day. I won't go into all the details. I feel a little detached from WW but that is okay. I think I am struggling trying to find the right balance - the right way to treat gemela and even to think about her. Last night when we got home, it was cool outside and getting dark. DDs wanted to open their Bratz things which, if you have never done it, takes about an hour. Nuclear weapons are not that well packed. Anyway, I am cleaning up the kitchen and gemela comes downstairs dressed to go outside. I tell her it is late and getting dark and I will do the gardening in the AM. She says let's go outside for a while - all she is going to do is sweep. I tell her to go ahead - I will be upstairs with DDs. She didn't go. She went upstairs and helped open the Bratz.

Anyway, long story short. Yes I think I am being the father that my DDs want and are very happy with although I am stricter with them (or at least more consistent) than WW. Even so, I think they always need to be given the same boundaries. When I discipline them, I do it in much "better" ways than WW. I don't yell at them or hit them. That is her method. On the other hand, since I catch it earlier, I don't need to go to extremes. I jump in when I see a wrong behavior, WW jumps in when she starts to get annoyed by the wrong behavior. I only bring this up because in the Hard Rock Cafe, the DDs were getting bored and started to expand their area of influence beyond the booth where we were sitting. I kept hauling them back in. WW said to let them go. I think she may have just wanted to relax a bit. I don't like kids - any kids - running loose around restaurants so I won't let mine do it. I was telling DDs to come back, WW was telling me (in front of DDs) to let them go. I told WW that I did not like it when kids behaved like that and did not respect parents who allowed it and I knew for a fact that she didn't either. Anyway, DDs stayed and WW dropped the subject.

I am rambling. It is 2:47 and I have two DDs sick and have been running up and down while writing this so I am totally lost.

Anyway, I am working on me and Plan A. I am somewhat distanced from gemela. I am not even thinking about the relationship. I am being a good husband - great husband in fact. I am not being a good "amante". I don't feel like it and she doesn't want it anyway. Her thoughts are all with OM so she doesn't miss me.

Thank you so much for your post. It has been very helpful. I'll go back and read again tomorrow when I am awake. I was telling ToddAC the other day that if it hadn't been for MB, I am sure I would already be divorced.

I'm glad you are doing so well. I do think that things will get better.

Please be careful about taking what I say literally because I insist that I'm not an expert. You're intelligent enough that you will realize what you can use and what you can't, what works and what doesn't.

ADs take a while to work, about 10 to 20 days. but they do help.

I'll checkon you tomorrow. Good night!

Don't worry. If things don't turn out well, I won't blame anyone outside these four walls. Go ahead and keep pushing. As I already said, if it had not been for MB, WW would not still be here. The last violation of NC would have been the last straw.

Maybe some day I will be an expert at all this. I sure hope not. What a terrible idea! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm not worrying about the blame, I worry that I might not be giving you useful advice.

The worst that can happen is that I get divorced.

The AD medicine is one pill a day. You said it takes 20 days to work so I took 20 pills today. I feel pretty good.

DD2 is sick so WW and I are not going to be spending much time together today.

I said 10 to 20 days! you should have taken only 10!

seriously I hope you're taking one a day...

I'm sorry dd is sick. Hope she gets better soon

Divorce is far from the worst thing that can happen.

Not all marriages are meant to be. (With your tendency of reading what you want out of messages I really have to emphasize I am not specifically referring to your marriage with this comment!)

The worst thing that can happen is if you don’t realize what you want until too late, making it unattainable. You really have to make up your mind whether and why you want to reconcile and then go for whatever solution you decide.

It is my opinion that your wife is open for reconciliation. I think Myrta can confirm Gemelia has come a long way in the last weeks.

You have sometimes referred to the 5 stages of grief. I guess you think you are on the stage of acceptance. Be careful – it sounds like you are in the stage of depression.

Bigger,

Apparently, I share the trait with traicionado of reading whatever I want into your posts. Are you saying that traicionado should divorce before it is too late? Before he gets caught in a mousetrap of reconciliation? Or reconcile while he has the opportunity? Why do you think that he has the opportunity to reconcile?

At the moment I feel Traicionado is approaching his relationship in a semi-detached state. Sort of not caring how it goes. I do hope I am wrong.

Being prepared for any outcome is one thing. But going into something as serious as reconciliation with an “I really don’t care about the end-result” attitude is IMHO a sure way to not succeed. I truly believe that reconciliation is a serious thing and must be handled in a firm way. You have to have a goal, a method and commitment. I feel that now when Gemelia is showing great progress Traicionado should be doing all he can to encourage that progress.

That does include a lot of what CC46 says about being happy with himself and focusing on his own needs and requirements. But not at the expense of emotionally detaching from Gemelia. Let’s say they detach emotionally and Gemelia keeps on coming out of the fog. Lets say they are still married a year from now but emotionally detached. Would that be better or worse than being divorced? Would that be true reconciliation?

In a sense by detaching he has switched roles with his wife. While still concentrating on her future with OM she was detached from him. He worked hard to change that and now HE is detaching.

Why do I think reconciliation is an option for him? The recent posts from WW have shown remorse and acceptance of blame (intermingled with fog). Also the simple fact she is still there. There was some talk of her not respecting NC. I am certain that was a misunderstanding due to language.

Am I saying he should seek a divorce? No – not any more that I am telling him to reconcile. But I do think that he should commit to reconciliation or commit to divorce. There is very little middle ground allowed.

Todd, in your case you spent a lot of time undecided. Eventually you felt you had no option but to expose and move out on the same day. Had you decided earlier on to expose your situation would be different today. Not necessarily better – but different. I don’t see you in a bad position right now. You could still be living with your WW and she could still be seeing OM. That IMHO is worse than a divorce.

BIGGER--Thats exactly how I see Traicionado..he seems detached,I dont see too much passion in his recovery efforts.
I am a FWW and I liked, loved the passion that my husband put in recovering our marriage, what he thought he had lost. He got depressed,yes, but his efforts for recovering our love never decreased! You, either,like you said, commit fully with all your heart and soul and energy, or you dont!

Myrta,

I respect immensely Traicionado decision not to read his W posts here. I think that decision is paying dividends now as can been seen in her recent posts.

I do not think either of us is breaking any confidence when I ask you to confirm what I say about the tone in his WW posts: there is remorse and acceptance of blame. Her recent posts give more hope for the future than her original posts gave.

I think traicionado would say that he has been committed to R for several months. Detachment is a defense mechanism because, IMHO, he either can't or doesn't want to deal with the hurt and pain. I have been there and know exactly how it feels. He will come around. Sooner or later, he will huddle with himself and use that big brain of his to think his way out of numbness. Sort of like leading his peer group out of the cave.

Hopefully, he will not over analyze his situation... He is an engineer after all.

If nothing else, he will remember the grand thrashing he gave me about numbness and it will hit him like a verbal boomerang. I have never had any doubt that traicionado and gemela and their marriage will be fine. I don't have the advantage/disadvantage of reading gemela's thread. It would destroy any semblance of objectivity I have with traicionado. Besides, my Spanish is much too weak...

cc46, your post was excellent!

BIGGER- You are absolutely right, Gemela's attitude is changing very rapidly. She wants her marriage to work very much. I dont know if its a good thing or a bad thing that Traicionado does not read her thread. In my case, my husband and I read each other's threads at the beginning, it made us fight sometimes, but it helped us so much too. Because sometimes you dont dare to tell the BS or viceversa exactly how you feel or what you want.

Todd- Maybe you are right and he will snap out of his numbness "in time". I also think that their marriage has a lot of chance of survival, with the "right attitudes" from BOTH!

Stan-ley,

If you are still around, can you give me 3 or 4 examples of acceptable passion (without getting too personal)?

I am a bit stuck as to understanding exactly how this behavior is manifested.

cc46,

The 20 pills didn't really have too much effect. Tomorrow I will take only ten. Then I should be all caught up.

Bigger,

I thought we had this conversation a long time ago. It is not a simple grief. It is grief for the affair, for the betrayal and loss of confidence, loss of love, etc. Each one has its own grief timeline. I can't remember what I said about where I was on each one. I am at acceptance on the A. I know I am in depression on the loss of love. It was quite a good explanation I gave you before. Too bad I can't remember it any more.

ToddAC,

You know me about as well as anyone. You know I had a rough couple of days. I agree it is a defense mechanism ans I told you long ago. What is really killing me is the total lack of communication. Everyone agrees that is what we need to be doing - except gemela.

traicionado,

Not everyone. I think that the two of you remaining together with you showing Gemela that you love her is plenty. Communications will come their merry way with time.

The only wild card that concerns me, to be frank, is Gemela's twin. She is a bad example and MIL is giving her tacit blessing of twin’s sordid affair by living with her. Given the closeness that Gemela feels to her origin family, it would be easy for her currently impaired logic to believe that what is good for her twin must be good for her.

Of course, there is nothing you can do about this except perhaps expose to FIL. I would not recommend it at this point. Keep that powder dry.

Stan-ley,

If you are still around, can you give me 3 or 4 examples of acceptable passion (without getting too personal)?

Passion:

There were several stages:

1. Immediately after d-day I thought I had no choice but to divorce Myrta. IMHO, infidelity had to end in divorce. However, Myrta asked for forgiveness and wanted to make love to me right away

2. On day 2 (post d-day) I decided to stay married. This decision was easy because I still had the spy program on the computer and read how Myrta dumped OM without me asking her to do so.

3. By day 3 I became very attracted to Myrta and wanted to make love 24/7. For reasons that are not clear Myrta also became hyper-sexual and invited me to shower with her regularly (something we had not done in a long time).

4. We entered this bizarre hysterical bonding and that was the only thing that kept me from walking away. The bonding became the only drug that would make me calm. I told Myrta in a very clear manner that I loved her and that I wanted to forgive her.

5. As most WWs do Myrta eventually became depressed at 3-4 weeks past d-day and her libido went down. She also started to talk to OM behind my back to ease his pain, but later admitted she was also medicating her own withdrawal.

6. At this point I became very passionate about the issue of no contact. However, Myrta kept talking to OM sporadically. I must have asked her a 100 times and she denied it every time. Then I intercepted some emails OM wrote to a secret account that confirmed my suspicion. I was very passionate about NC and I talked to her about this on a daily basis and also sent her articles from MB via email. Initially Myrta thought MB was full of strange people.

7. At this point it was me doing all the talking about how to recover a marriage; how do deal with withdrawal; and how to reconnect at an emotional level. I must have sent her countless of articles about these issues. I was very passionate about reaching marital bliss and tried everything. However, I always said that she could leave me for OM and offered her that alternative. I even offered to take the fall for the divorce and to keep her affair a secret. I did not want to hurt my children by revealing the affair.

8. I even tried to behave like someone that was receptive to an open marriage. Within this context her sexual escapades could hurt less. However, that did not work.

9. I also realized that like most WP Myrta needed attention. Obviously I gave her a lot of attention and I am sure this was overwhelming to her. The strange thing is that every time she complained I was too intense I would back away and then she would complained I was not paying attention to her. On more than one occasion I proposed celibacy and as soon as I did that she would seek sex.

10 . Then she started to post and received a lot of info from "Just Learning" and the rest is history.

Traicionado..since, it seems, you prefer the oppinions of BSs over the FWWs, I will not post to you anymore.
But before I do that, I just want to tell you that you are not putting in consideration that I, like Gemela have a spanish background. You and her have different cultures, and whats passion for you, is not for her.
I am sure that what attracted you to her, was her "different" outlook or views to everything. It seems that NOw those differences in ethnicity are becoming more apparent.

Good luck to you and Gemela. I really wish you complete happiness with each other!

Sincerely

Myrta

Myrta,

I am not sure where I gave you that impression. Regardless, thanks for all the help you have been. I wanted Stan-ley's opinion because I am struggling trying to find out what is acceptable passion and what is not. Reading Stan-ley's post, I don't think I am any closer. Gemela clearly does not want SF. I am not sure what else I can do for passion. Stan-ley says he was passionate about NC. I have said if she breaks NC I will divorce her. That seems pretty passionate. People say to focus on me - not WW. How can I be passionate toward WW and not focus on her.

Bigger said not all mariages are meant to be. I guess that is right. WW used to love the fact that people thought she was so young. She does look younger than her age. In that sense, being with me fed that desire. I also look younger than my age but do look older than WW. I still think WW is going through some internal crisis. I think she is afraid of getting old - of losing her beauty. But that is just me.

You said I needed to be passionate. I just don't understand how that translates into action. Everything I do is the wrong thing. I can't see that she is any closer to leaving the OM behind than before. Either she is secretly contacting him or else she truly is in love and he really is her soulmate. Either way, it does not bode well for the marriage.

I have never wanted to stand in the way of gemela's happiness. Not since before we were married.

Traicionado, I'm still awake.

How are you doing?

traicionado.

It will be interesting to see how your attitude fares once the AD's kick in. At twenty per day, it shouldn't take long.

The difficult part of Plan A is knowing when progress is being made. It is like death by 1,000 cuts.

You have received some conflicting opinion but that is good. It presents you with options to consider or for you to devise your own.

Maybe at this juncture, you should take a MB break. Keeping ingesting the AD's and quit analyzing Gemela and your relationship so much. Go away from MB for a week. Ride the Harley. Run. Golf. Shovel sand. That could keep you busy for ages.

You have a good mind but right now it could be your worst enemy...

Traicionado...NO WWs want any sex at the beginning. I did not want to have sex with my husband, but I still did!! I got hypersexual for some time, like he said, then boom!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I did not want to do it anymore. My husband used to complain so much here in MB that I he wanted sex and I did not! Everyone here advised me that I should comply to his wishes, because he needed that for his recovery . Dont get discourage when Gemela seems not to be too much into it, she will eventually start feeling again.


Bigger is right, not all marriages survive affairs, and some are not meant to be. But before they come to that conclussion, I am sure they give the marriages a really good try, with all the energy and love they can muster.

About getting old, women dont like that idea, not only Gemela. Traicionado, I look very young for my age too, and of course I love that. But the time will come when it will be a different story. I am not ready for that yet either!
Internal crisis? she is just going thru withdrawal. It might never go away, but only time will tell that. I think she is doing much better now, than when she started to post. She seems much more focus on trying to save the marriage. I dont think she is contacting the OM at all! Maybe she is doing that for the wrong reasons, fear of losing the girls, maybe afraid of you sending her away, but I think she is true to her word saying she is in NC.

I really hope I had been of some help to you and your marriage, Traicionado.

Myrta,

First of all, whatever it was I posted that upset you, I am sorry for. If it is because I did not mention you in my list of names in the last post, it is because yours are the only ones I didn't have doubts about. You mentioned passion and I am just struggling to find the right balance.

Anyway, to answer your question, you probably more than anyone else have kept me motivated to continue R. I could go into a very detailed explanation of why but it would really not be much more than a compilation of many things I have already posted (if you or anyone else is interested, it might actually be of value for some other BS)- it is just now they are all coming together - compressed in time. Everyone has given my great advice and encouragement. You, being a FWW, have given me hope. You have shown me that it is possible.

I truly do hope you continue to post to my thread but will also understand if you don't.

Right now my only goal is to wait 17.3765 more days until the AD's kick in. I don't want to do anything drastic before then.

It has been roughly 2 months of NC. Let's see if that continues. It may be that our marriage is not meant to be. Time will tell. But from what I know of the OM, his way is gemela's destruction. If she gets over the OM and then decides to end the marriage, that will be a much better choice for all. I can't imagine what kind of life would be ahead for DD's if gemela runs off with this particular OM.

ToddAC,

Don't ever say anything bad about MIL again. I will track you down! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, the poor woman has limited choices. If I could bring her here I would. I can't get the residence visa for her. You have no idea how much she suffers and prays over SIL every single day. Seeing SIL in that relationship really hurts her - even after 10 years.

BTW, if you have sent me any emails to the normal email address, it seems the exchange server is down again for the long weekend. We have Saturday off as well for some holiday I don't understand.

Does FIL know Gemela's twin is shacked up with OM?

No question. He has been to their house. He has simply been told from day one that they are married. He got posted to Venezuela and a few months later SIL went to live with him there. Everyone was told they got married down there so he just accepted that as the truth.

I really don't see what it has to do with anything. I think SIL has little to do with this whole thing as long as she keeps her advice to herself. Since our last "chat", she has kept pretty quiet AFAIK.

I don't see what continued exposure will accomplish. The A is effectively stopped. What WW needs is time in NC. I need time in Plan A.

Well, traicionado, what it has to do with anything is that WW sees SIL living with a married man through hook and crook and given her feelings that her origin family is indeed her "family" it is pretty strong symbolism, at least it appears so to me.

So what is the solution? Expose SIL wayward ways. Yes it is drastic and I don't mean now. Did MIL participate in the coverup?

My you are in a funk aren't you???

ToddAC,

You have WAY too much free time. I see no benefit in ruining SIL's life. If her OM dumps her, her life is ruined already. If not, she played the odds and won. Good for her. Why bring misery to the life of her DD? MIL lives with SIL. If SIL goes down, MIL goes with her. You can't imagine how hard their life would be.

Personally I think SIL's life choice puts even more pressure on WW to "get it right". I think WW views herself as MIL's last hope. Just my opinion.

Maybe AD's will begin to work in 8 to 18 more days.

Traicionado...thank you for your words to me. What I want is for you to see some similar behaviours in your wife and I. When we are WWs there are a lot of similarities. She is going thru normal emotions. Its not an easy transition from going thru WW to FWW, but it can be done!

Two months of NC is a very short time, you have to give Gemela some more time to sort herself. She will, I am sure. She chose YOU as her husband some years ago, she found you interesting,attractive, that can happen again .

It will not be a good idea any more exposure for Gemela. Enough people know already, and she finished the affair. She is in NC, no need to expose. She will just resent you for it.

Traicionado..if its not meant to be, just the passing of time will tell. Bigger said it very well, some marriages are not meant to be", but a lot more are! So, you just have to have patience and wish to be one of the latter ones. You have patience and love her? no?

Taking ADs will be of "some" benefit I suppose, but sometimes medicating yourself in these kinds of cases, just fogs the mind and the normal feelings that you should be in.
My husband did not take anything, and he was sooooooooooooo down, so depressed, got so skinny. You have to try to be positive, optimistic, have faith in YOURSELF and in GOD!!

yOU CAN MAKE IT!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Use your analytical engineering mind !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes

Myrta

I think ADs are a double edged sword. I have tried a few different meds and had varying experiences. The bottom line: I'm glad I had the experience of taking them. There was a time where I was very low and depression was totally fogging my thoughts. ADs gave me a taste of 'reality' and that was invaluable at the time.

That being said, I will do my utmost to avoid ever going on them again. The withdrawal was VERY scary. These are serious drugs that totally upset your natural chemistry in some pretty profound ways.

Oh yeah... one other thing...

I think you guys are gonna make it.

John

Traicionado:

I was thinking about your question about passion.

I was very passionate about getting my marriage back. However, I did this within the context that I was not competing with OM for Myrta. I also understoofd that Myrta was 100% into trying to save the marriage. My goal was to recapture the innocence of the marriage and to make sure Myrta was NC to avoid dealing with a person in perennial withdrawal. Recovery is brutal even with a WW that is 100% cooperative. I cannot imagine what it would be with a disinterested WW.

Many of these affairs are like puzzles with no solution. Myrta going with OM was an impossibility and that was as clear as the light of a sunny day. So I never worried about that angle. The sad story is that many men and women fall in affairs that have no possible happy ending and then they find themselves unhappy for the rest of their lives. That was my other goal--------I had no intentions of living with a woman that was pining for OM (as illogical as that was).

My worry with your situation is the difference in age and the fact that OM is even younger than Gemela. In this instance youth is a valuable commodity, However, I suspect OM has no other positive attributes other than his youth.

Good Luck!

Stan-ley,

The age difference was at the forefront since before the wedding. It was never a problem for WW but now suddenly is. I have told her since Dday that if the age difference is her complaint, there is nothing that can be done to resolve it so she needs to walk. I can change a lot of things but that one is difficult. Personally I think she is using that as an excuse and I also think it is an idea that OM constantly hammers her with so partly she believes it because he made her believe it.

The curiosity is (and I have always wondered if maybe there weren't more to it than coincidence) that SIL's OM is exactly the same age as me. Now while age difference may be a problem for gemela, it will be a tough sell to her family in Mexico. Gemela was in an environment in Dubai where she was surrounded by "beautiful" people. Dubai is a very materialistic place. Now, in Saudi, she is surrounded by women who, on average, are 10-15 years her senior. The younger group of women are college students in their early 20's who return her during school vacations. Gemela told me early on when she made her daily trips to the pool that she abhorred seeing the older women and got into basically a "best shape" contest with the college girls. That is why the bikini's got skimpier and skimpier with time. Even thoughshe should not have been wearing bikini's, the pool is one of the few places here where she could get by without having to dress conservatively. Even though she should have been in one-piece suits, the guys enforcing the rules are all young bachelors so they were not too strict.

So gemela did not have much of a peer group to socialize with. On the other hand, she did not make much effort to find them. There are women here that are her age and she shies away from getting involved with them. Maybe just a result of the A in that she wants to continue to make herself unhappy complaining that she has no friends.

Maybe I am just on the wrong track with this whole thought process but gemela and I have talked about the age difference since Dday and I do think she struggles with it now. I also don't think the problem is necessarily my age. It may be her age. I could also be wrong. I do doubt that her OM will be too interested in her in a few more years - if they would even stay together that long. If gemela does decide she cannot continue in the marriage, from a practical standpoint, I think she should make that decision sooner rather than later so that she can take full advantage of her assets in finding another husband. She is never going to do well as a single person IMO.

Right now I just hope to give this time to let gemela get through her withdrawal - assuming she ever does - and then we can decide whether there is any future for us at all. If this marriage falls into one of Bigger's "not meant to be" category, Gemela needs to end it the "right" way - not through an affair. If a marriage is not right, you get a divorce and then you find someone else. Gemela just forgot a step.

Traicionado,
you're on the right track. Just wait for a little more time.

The ADs should help reducing the pain which allows you to think better. If they don;t do that quit taking them. I've only taken them for 3 months and the psychiatrist told me that next month he thinks I should start cutting the dose in half in order to start getting off them.

It should be done slowly.

I think you know what to do.

cc46,

I think you and Myrta are trying to tell me the same thing but in different ways. I think it is starting to sink in. Rest assured I am committed to doing my best. I still love gemela and still want the M to work. If it is not meant to be, I don't think right now is the time to make that decision. I have un-detached myself from gemela. I will give gemela and the M everything I have. Tell Bigger to calm down. I think things are going to get better.

I will encourage her to keep posting to MB. I think it helps her to be able to vent. It is not hard to convince her to post anyway.

Hi Traicionado,

I know you are committed to your marriage and want to do the best. That's why I wanted to give you a different perspective which may get better results for you.

I don't quite agree with those who say that some marriages are not meant to be. I don't think that can be said about marriages which have been "real" and "good" and are the affected by some event (like infidelity, or death of a child, etc). In these cases it mainly depends on the WILL of the couple. They both have to want to recover from these ordeals. And wanting to recover isn't something that is decided on the spur of the moment. There arecircumstances that require certain periods of time and if you do not take that into consideration, teh marriage will not be, not because it's been given a "fair" chance, but because someone is TOO IMPATIENT.

Take the event of a child dying. I have no experience fortunately, but even if there is a certain distance between the couple initially, UNTIL grieving for the child is over the worst, they shouldn't decide about their marriage. Don't you think that sounds logical and fair?

Same with infidelity. After d day, no actions should be taken for a period of 3 weeks. That is to get over the shock and the trauma.

On d day you may be convinced you want a divorce and it's all over. But in 2 or 3 weeks, you feel different and for example MB philosophy starts to sink in. Or any other for that matter.

So TIME itself has to be considered. And what you do in that time can also be very important.

So I know you are doing fine.

How are DDs BTW? all better now?

cc46,

I think the issue of whether my marriage is "meant to be" is currently off the table. I will defer even contemplating that for at least a year (assuming gemela and I make it that long) and even then I will probably not be the one to bring it up. I don't believe in fate but I do believe in predestination. Superficially there appears to be a very fine line between the two but there is actually a giant chasm.

I have also always been a four-dimensional thinker. It is an innate ability for me.

I think I finally understand my role and responsibilities. Right now the only thing that will change my mind is gemela breaking NC. That is not something I am willing to accept again. The cost is too high.

DD's are fine. They were not that sick but had enough of a cough to keep them waking themselves and each other up. Both girls are prone to vomiting when they have a cough so if we hear any noise at all, we are off like a shot to their bedroom.

I think this last week was hard on me but I think I am feeling better. I don't think it is the AD yet either. I think I am just finally starting see things from a better perspective. Bigger's 2x4 is quite effective too.

My only concern is that we might settle back into the "status quo". We still don't communicate any more than we did. Gemela still keeps everything to herself. Isn't that really what more or less started this whole episode several weeks ago with the BT? I am not sure I can remember now. I think it was the BT.

The status quo depends on you too. If you change, the whole situation changes and Gemela CANNOT continue as she is.

I do think she keeps everything to herself and because you are where you are it is more dangerous than the usual situations. She is relatively isolated socially, from family, etc. That's why it would be great if she adopted MB but she hasn't yet. Don't force her.

She seemed to have caught on here for a while, but I don't think she has posted lately. I worry about her. But I guess we should wait a while.

Actually I will pray not that she posts but that she talks to YOU. That woudl be the best.

Do let us know, if that happens!

Here you go being cryptic again.

Sorry. It wan't my intention.

What I mean is that in a relationship of any kind there is a bond between the people in the relationship. Otherwise they are just 2 (or more) people. So when one person changes the bond has to change and tehrefore the other person (or persons) have to change to adapt or change and have the first person adapt etc. This is the ongoing dynamics of a relationship.

Now, in a marriage affected by infidelity and you being the BS, your choices are: 1) tolerate the infidelity (NOT an OPTION)
2) Having learned the dynamics of affairs, know you might have to wait some months (up to 2 years ) during which Dr. Harley proposes you work to make yourself a better person AND protect yourself from the WS and the A in order to recover PERSONALLY.

3) You do what your instincts tell you. Get angry, fight, threaten, beg etc The ultimate result MAY not differ with respect to the existance or not of the marriage but I doubt recovery is the same after following Dr. Harley's principles or your own instincts. With Dr. Harley's plans you at least are working towards a BETTER recovered marriage, with knowledge (his knowledge). The other way, you may not lose your marriage, but I doubt it will be very good after the infidelity.

4) You just divorce

Does this help?