Please be patient with gemela. Yesterday morning we had another version of the BT (Bigger Talk) as I had been urged to do. I promise you the issue of 3 versus 5 1/2 weeks confused me. As much as WW is in love with OM, I would think she would know down to the minute haw long it has been since she talked to OM. It is hard to believe she only has a general idea. Anyway, she said she hasn't so I have to assume she is telling the truth.

I wasn't going to mention this but thought about it some more and realized it might be important. I got home yesterday (soccer night at 5:00) and was sitting down to lupper at about 4:25 and DD's were coming in from playing to eat too. We all finished eating and DD1 jumped up to run outside and play (we needed to leave for soccer almost right now) and I decided to go ahead and ask if she had done homework. She said no and ran for the door. I said "GET BACK HERE". "Do your homework". She said no and WW said to me "SEE?". I told DD1 to get her homework and get started which she did. So now I get the idea that it is not so much that WW doesn't like to do the homework. I see the same problem at bath time, bed time and any other time. DD's don't pay attention to what WW says to do. If I am in the house and she wants to get the girls to mind, she always yells my name out. She doesn't really want me to come but that is how she gets the DD's to mind. Now I mention this because I think this is one of the things that really bothers WW - she doesn't have the ability to get DD's to mind her. Now, before you get the wrong idea, I have never ever hit, spanked, slapped or DD's. On the other hand WW screams at them and hits them with shoes (that is a Mexican thing and is pretty much normal there so don't look at it from a USA perspective). DD's run the risk of physical punishment from WW and not from me but they won't cross me for anything. Explain that one to me because I don't get it. Oh, yes I did swat DD1 on the behind for the first time two weeks ago because she had kicked a neighbor girl in the stomach. Neighbor mom called to ask about it and I was walking DD1 across the street to talk about it with neighbor. DD1 refused to go and would not move. When I tried to pick her up, she kicked me multiple times in legs and stomach so I did swat her but not hard. Anyway, now I can't say I never ever swatted her.

As for me, I don't know if WW is still in contact or not. If I had to bet, I would say she is doing it somehow. I made the decision about 5 weeks ago to do my very best to not catch her at that because people here said the A would die eventually. If I do catch her, it is because she wants me to catch her.

Stan-ley said that Plan A should be about 6 months - from what date? Where does the clock start? For me, having a date in mind is good. I won't repeat the running analogy I put on adrianc's thread but it exactly fits my mindset. On the other hand there is believer who says be patient.

I think the advice to calm down is the best. WW did say yesterday she is staying for DD's. Can't leave them. They need her. She said she is going to make effort. She said all the right things. I don't know if they are true or not but I can't just assume it is a lie so time will tell.

Traicionado,
take it one day at a time. I know it's hard, I've been there only my WH spent ALL DAY with OW and the weekends he went off with her too! I guess I was too numb to even react.
At least gemela seems to be considering the situation.

Hopefully she will read her threads. she hasn't said much yet, and hasn't exaactly answered the posts . so let's wait and see what happens.

I hope someone can explain your daughters behaviour. My experience is that children will respond to CONISTENT behaviour. So maybe Gemela hasn't been consistent and they instinctively realize that they can get away with not minding her. I guess it's discipline. Hopefully someone will come along and explain it better.

I think consistency has been a problem from the beginning and I always stressed that with WW. She tells them to do something and they don't. Sometimes she just ignores it, sometimes it escalates. Other times she gets so mad that it escalates terribly out of control. I have always taken a different approach but all I have to do is look crosswise at DD's and they obey. It is funny that they are more afraid of me and yet every so often one or the other will come and ask me why Mommy hits them and I don't. They usually ask that after they have been hit. WW sometimes treats DD's like children and sometimes like sisters. When they fight, it is more like sisters.

I think DDs know where you are inside yourself. If I tell my DDs to do something and I am already upset, they will react to that. If you talk calm but with authority, they react to that also. I am sure Gemela knows that also, it is almost instinctive.
But if you are upset, you talk to DDs in a way that they will be upset also and not obey, so you "prove" your point that they don't listen to you.
As you know, I am no expert, but I think is all part of the situation.

traicionado,

I know how you feel about the consistency issue. I have always had the same concern about my WW's lack of consistency with our three sons. Guess what? WW's love for them and their love for her pervaded all the issues I was concerned about. Guess who supplied the consistency? Everything will be fine. Kids know when something is amiss, even if they are too young to fathom why. They have more resilency that you and I combined.

WW will see the error of her ways. Then you can move on to a different challenge. It will not be any easier, but you will do what you have to do because that is the kind of person you are.

Given that the BT has not been productive or positive or fruitful, when are you going to stop? Please stop!!!

Remember my simpleton defintion of insanity? Repeating the same behavior and expecting a different outcome.

Ease off the accelerator. Trim the RPM’s. Your mind is running way too fast. Settle back into a long-term approach. Do not worry about day-to-day gyrations.

You and BT have me caught in the middle. Maybe the BT was a mistake or, at least, ill-timed but I can see that, once started, it needed resolution so the B of BT was right about that. The last installment of the BT plan seemed to turn out quite well and therefore seems to have killed the issue entirely. WW did say that it was her decision to stay and "ponerse ganas al matrimonio". I think now she needs time and a period of NC. If I could guarantee NC, I would have the patience of Job. The NC is the only problem at the moment. The phone calls don't bother me all that much but I know they rip her apart. I want her to stop the calls so she can heal and begin to get her life back together. I can tell when she is calling because it affects her mood so much. She can't hide the emotion.

Even so, I think that we are in a renewed state of nothingness. As such, for the longest time, nothing will happen and then, suddenly and without any warning....

That is where I think we are at the moment. Love it or hate it, the BT happened and has come to conclusion. BT is over for the moment.

I still say hang in there and be patient. How long do you think the OM is going to wait? My guess is that he has a long history of seducing mother's of his clients. He will very likely move on to the next one.

Waiting and waiting patiently are two different things. You say wait. ToddAC says wait patiently. I like your advice better than his. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think the fact that WW has said the "right words" has helped. She is taking AD. She promises to return to IC. She is being much more like a "real wife". For all appearances she is doing all the right things. I think WW is taking a lot of positive steps.

WW also seems to recognize exactly what she risks losing if she goes with OM. If all they do is sob and whisper ILY's on the phone, well, that is just pathetically sad and makes me feel sorry for both of them.

I am firmly entrenched in Plan A and I want to make sure DD's are as protected as possible. I spoke to WW last week and she agreed we might send DD1 to counseling later on just to be safe.

Yes I will wait. Right now "nothing" seems to insist on continuing to happen...

I hope she will keep posting. Myrta was a WW, and we ALL had a hard time with her. But she hung in there and has a recovered marriage. Stan-ley is her husband. Oh, and she speaks Spanish too.

Hang in there. I know how hard it is, but I don't see your wife leaving for the OM.

When she gets firmly into recovery, she won't be able to believe that she took a chance of losing everything.

Yesterday started off badly with the final installment of the infamous BT plan but it got very much better and ended with her going to sleep in my arms.

I don't want to twist her arm to post but I will do my very best.

I just had a thought. I am wondering about potential cures for WS syndrome. Does anybody have any idea what Dr. Harley's views are on leeches and blood-letting? I hear that used to work for many diseases some time ago. Didn't know if any clinical work had ever been done with WS's.

traicionado,

I am an impatient person, but I'm not dumb. I'm an MD although I don't see patients. Most illnesses have a "natural history" meaning that they have certain clinical features AND they have a timeline. For flu it is 3 days, for hepatitis it is 1 month. There is always a give or take period around that.

For emotional relationships it seems to be 2 years. It's not in the books, I searched. But Dr. Harley's experience makes him say 2 years for all relationship problems. He recommends dating for 2 years before getting married, he says affairs end in 2 years, etc.

For psychiatrists "normal" grieving should last 1 year. Even grieving for your marriage. Knowing that, when I realized I was still too emotional about WH and his A after one year of separation I went to a psychiatrist to get ADs. To help me get through the next year necessary to complete a relationship's timeline.
I am trying to be consistent with the advice I give people who come and say "I have the flu" what can I do to make it go away?" I tell them, nothing. In three days it will go away. Use whatever you can to feel better in the meantime.

Same thing I'm doing. Waiting 2 years and using whatever I need to feel better in the meantime. In 2 years I should be over WH because it will have been 2 years with no relationship.

It doesn't HAVE to be 2 years, it can be less.

And for all adictions, according to Dr. Harley, the worst withdrawal takes 3 weeks. So if Gemela is not in contact, in about 3 weeks she should start to feel better.

Hope this helps. You are doing fine.

I know you are not dumb but I think maybe you are saying I am dumb but I am not smart enough to know for sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks. Yes that does help. Now if I can just keep her out of contact...

I am not going to go for AD's right now. I am doing much better surprisingly enough. I know I have to remain consistent and that that is important to gemela as much as anything. If she has doubts about anything, I don't want to be a contributing factor.

I will try to get gemela to at least post something this PM just so you all don't think I have been up to skullduggery or something.

Please just be patient and don't give up on her. I think talking about it with people who can help her see her feelings are not unique will really help. She has tried to talk to people before but mainly in an effort to seek enablers. If she begins to get active on MB, she knows she will not find enablers here so it will be to seek help. Of that, I am sure. I think she is a bit timid yet too. I will get her back.

I don't think you are dumb at all! On the contrary, you are doing so great!!!! even without previous experience <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In a while I'll bump gemela's thread. I don't want them to be too near yours...

PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE?!?!?!?!?

Who in their right mind would go through this TWICE???

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

exactly!

That's what we think now, but acually some people do.Unfortunately.

I don't think I have ever told you to be patient. Maybe I did. Besides, telling you to be patient would be like telling the captain of the Titantic to be careful...

I did encourage you to calm down.

This was somewhat interesting but only for the Spanish speaking. Yesterday WW took the golf cart down to be inspected. After dropping DD2 off at preschool (in the golf cart), she went back and played 9 holes. In Mexican humor there is a lot of double meaning (doble sentido). Years ago she and the other golf wives in Villahermosa (Mexico) were planning a couples tournament for all of us to have a fun golf day out.

[Before I go on, I should mention that Mexican's use a lot of Spanglish terms in golf rather than making up their own words like the French would do. A fivesome, for example, would be a fayson. The green is still the green. Well they use "putt" for putt but the infinitive verb form of "to putt" is puttear.]

Well the woman were all chatting about the tournament (and probably drinking mimosas) and they were trying to decide the format. One woman suggested the men tee-off and hit to the green and the women would "putear", She had meant to say "puttear" but pronounced it wrong. The women just went crazy with laughter and the jokes didn't stop. The woman who had said "putear" got a bit embarrassed I think. Well WW told me about this and it has been a kind of running joke for us for all these years. One or the other has brought it up every once in a while when it was appropriate and it always gives us a good laugh.

Well last night we were talking and I was going back over her golf game a little - just something to talk about. I told her what a shame it was that she started out with a par and ended up so terribly - triple bogey on the last hole. Especially after having had a good drive. Un buen maderazo para salir y tres madrazos hasta al green. She then said "Y QUATRO PUTTS!!!". I immediately said "pero estas puteando demasadio". She said "No, ya no" and started to laugh and then swatted me but in a playful way. Then she told me I was terrible - but still laughed and the conversation continued.

That was a conversation we would not have had a few weeks ago.

Traicionado:

I want to congratulate you for your desire to remain married. As you know in most Latin cultures (regardless of socioeconomic class or level of machismo) we are always taught to kick out the infidel. Staying married is harder, but in the end you will be rewarded. You also show quite a bit of charisma in your posts as well as very little false pride. I could learn a couple of things from you.

I want to emphasize that the centerpiece of your recovery will be hermetic absolute NC. Withdrawal can be very long and protracted with any kind of contact. The latter includes the so-called harmless phone calls, emails, IM, or even the contemplation of old photos and emails. Checking a website where there may be info about OM is another no-no. As I said--------NC must be hermetic.

Once Gemela ends the withdrawal you will have a chance to have a great marriage if you learn how to meet her needs.

Good Luck!!!

False pride? Apparently even my pride has betrayed me. I used to have real pride! My mother always told me I had a lot to be humble about.

If you have any more ideas on what I can do to secure NC, let me know. I have done all I know short of chain WW to the kitchen sink. I am doing everything I know how including some things I am not to happy about.

I personally suspect that contact is happening in some way. Can't prove it but I am just amazed she has hung on as long as she has with no contact. She told me it has been six weeks since last contact once she corrected the math. She told me it had been three prior to my reminding her of the dates. I just can't believe she would have her estimate that far off.

I have my good days and bad days. Today was a really bad day because I had to go offshore so had four hours each way to do nothing but think. That was torture. When I got home, I got home in a bad mood. Partly because I had to walk from the office the 6k. Normally not too bad but I hate doing it in safety boots. To top it off, WW whizzed past me in the golf cart on her way to pick up DD2. I yelled at her to stop and give me a ride but nothing. Guess she didn't hear me. I got home and went upstairs because I was mad and didn't want to be around her while being mad. She suggested we go play golf. Big mistake. 5th hole we picked up and came home. We got in and I told her it had been a rough day and asked her to hold me. She did. I thanked her and told her it helped a lot.

Thankfully I don't have to go offshore any time again in the near future. She seems to be doing better than me for the moment.

Regarding NC:

At this point I trust my wife and I do not monitor anything.

However, there was a time when I was monitoring because I sensed something was wrong. I knew my wife did not want to re-start the affair, but I also knew that most WWs always rationalize breakage of NC to ease their pain and the pain of OM.

In the end hermetic NC is the best measure to lessen the pain, but when “one is in the midst of withdrawal one tends to think a little contact cannot hurt” That is how they think-----------it is human nature.

WW will also think any monitoring is a love buster and OM will use that info to emphasize that the BH is a tyrannical person. Therefore, monitoring has drawbacks.

In any event you may consider the following:

Change the number of all land based phones.

Change number of all cell phones

Ask WW to get a new email. Keeping old email and using blockage of OM’s email does not work. OM will quickly assume another identity. Even if WW states she has no desire to hear from OM she will still check her email with great hope to see if she is receiving a strange email with encoded messages.

Install the key-logger.

Go to Radio Shack and install a kit to record phone calls.

Search the house and cars to make sure OM has not given WW a special cell phone for communication. That is one thing OMs do all the time.

However, I have bad news for you. In the end your wife or anyone can get around all these hurdles and still communicate or even cheat again.

There is also no point in being married to someone you have to supervise in such manner. However, when the WW is foggy and in the throes of withdrawal some supervision may be acceptable.

If you document that she is breaking NC you will have to set some firm boundaries. Many here advocate full exposure, but to me that is a last resort.

I am an avid golfer. It is nice your W plays the game.