WW having to learn of your surprise Plan B by coming home to an empty house ring a bell?

Yeah? What was wrong with Plan B being a surprise? It was coordinated with exposure.

Ideally exposure should still happen during Plan A to give Plan A more effective time to work. You know you delayed exposure but I won't go back in to that story. Also, you gave yourself no time to plan or even try to negotiate Plan B. You waged war instead.

I know you have some health issues involved and I can appreciate how that might accelerate your decision to go to Plan B but you left before exposure hit home. It is like you ran away from the fallout. I don't want to criticize you here when I have already called you every bad name I can think of via email ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). I just don't think your approach to Plan B is typical and, if I remember your thread on SI, what you were doing (or at least saying) was Plan D and then you later downgraded to Plan B thanks to some good woodwork by Bigger and others.

You should have never delayed exposure, should have let Plan A last something past Eday and then go to Plan B in an ideal world. Your situation, however, is not ideal. But then, I am not saying anything you don't already know. Your health is super critical right now and you have to attend to that first. If Plan A was getting in the way of that, good that you got away from the stress. Now the question is where you go from here. I don't think you should spend so much time away from MB. It is far healthier than SI, IMHO. But I also know you don't agree with me on that. Oh well....

I thought you might find this interesting. From what little conversation we have had about it, OM tried to convince WW to let him come to our house. She denies they ever met here. As a contractor, he could not live on camp but he had a system set up with a friend whereby he could use the friend's house on camp for interludes. It seemed well organized. There is also significant phone record evidence that tied him to about a dozen western expat women on camp. My impression is that, whatever OM was doing, it was running like a Swiss watch. If I can be quite honest, my initial reaction when I found out about this was OM was doing this for a MILF web site. I have never found any proof of that, however.

I wanted to add, I couldn't do any research directly on something like that even if I wanted to because our proxy server is EXTREMELY strict. I did ask the PI to investigate it though. It was very difficult for me to even research STD's because even that topic is screened. Internet access is highly restricted here.

Hey Traicionado,

have you talked with Gemela about Dr. Harley's four rules: care, protection, honesty and time?

When I thought that recovery was possible I had planned on how to explain them to WH. I've forgotten that now! But anyway, you do have to adapt them to your own particular situation, so you might as well start and see how Gemela reacts. Slowly, one at a time.

I'm reading Marriage Insurance, a book Dr. H wrote years ago and which was not one of the commercially successful ones but very popular with Univrsity professors according to Dr. H. I asked, he sent! I also listen to him when I can in the afternoons. And he repeats and repeats and repeats the need to spend 15 hours alone with your spouse. Maybe you could start by talking to Gemela about spending these hours together and plan them.

Just a sugestion.

cc46,

No. Gemela and I don't talk about R at all. She still does not seem really interested and appears to still be grieving OM. I have worked hard to try to get more alone time with gemela but it is very difficult. DD1 is extremely possessive. The golf seems to have been the biggest success. We may get 6 to 8 hours a week from that alone. We don't get to be away from DD1 very much. She is very insecure. DD2 wouldn't miss us. Even so, I do not take any time for myself - never. Every non-work hour I have is spent with family or WW alone.

Traicionado, I'm sorry but I think you CAN find time to spend with her and I think you should ASK her to spend time alone with you. That's what Dr. Harley says and I believe it's true.We can find time. And if Gemela really wants the marriage I think she can at least TRY TO FIND THE TIME. Do you think it's too much to ask of her? Doesn't matter she's in withdrawal...

This has been going on for enough time and you need to do something before you get tired of just waiting...

BW, spending 15 hours with you doesn't mean she can't cry and miss OM with you... She CAN do that.

BTW try not to focus on OM, he's not worth a second of your time. He really isn't. He's not PART of YOUR relationship with your wife and hopefully soon he will only be something she would prfer not to remember of her life.

Traicionado -

Hang in there, Gemela seems to be joining the MB crew. I think she may be a tiny bit spoiled, but don't you tell her that, I will.

I raised my boys alone from the time they were 2 and 5. My life involved finding (and KEEPING) good day care and paying for it. I got up every morning at 5:00, dragged them out of bed, fed them, packed lunches, got ready for work and dropped them off, hoping to get to work on time.

When they were sick, I called in sick to work, and was in constant fear of taking off too much time. My daycare providers were occasionally quit and let me know the night before. It was H*LL.

During Desert Storm, I was required to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and that went on for a year. My 5 year old learned to ride a bike during that time, and I never got to spend any time doing ANYTHING with them.

People who think it would be easy "living on love" are those that have never tried it.

Anyway, don't let me get started here.

You are being a good husband and working on being a better father. I think part of your problem is being male, and an engineer. I work with all engineers, and they think a little differently - wouldn't want to marry one.

Traicionado....your wife is not very receptive to spending time alone with you right now. Just give her a little bit more time, and that will happen naturally. She still in severe withdrawal right now and the thought of spending time with you, is not there yet.

Stanley was very insistent with me, and sometimes that pulled me a bit farther away from me. I felt too overwhelmed by his clinginess to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. So, let her be on her own if she wants to. Of course make sure that she is mantaining NC with OM. If she re-establishs contact that will be a draw back to all your work with Gemela.

Why is your DD1 so clingy and possesive with your wife?

Myrta

cc46,

Spending time alone with gemela is not easy. I am not sure where my string of errors began last night but it ended with me falling asleep on the couch.

As soon as we got home, WW and I went running. DD1 complained and almost cried that she could not go with us. DDs hugged and kissed each of us three times before we could get out the door. They played with the neighbors meanwhile. When we got back, they were still entertained with the neighbors so I suggested to WW to take that time and post on MB. Usually she won't post until the evening and, on those nights, I won't see her so I thought this might be better. I watched DDs outside and then we came inside and I made them dinner and served WW her dinner at the PC while she was posting. Then I cleaned up the kitchen and WW finally came in to reheat her plate and finish eating. We went upstairs to shower and got on the bed to watch TV and DDs piled on (normal). They are on trimester break so are staying up later. After about 30 minutes, I felt frustrated and saw no sign of WW letting the kids know they could play in their room, get ready for bed, or anything else so I went and got a book and went to another room to read (no way I could read in the bed with DDs bouncing around - [the Pilgrim's Progress]) If I try to suggest that DDs go play or go to bed, WW will scold me and tell me to let them stay a while longer - so I don't do it.

Eventually DD2 decided she was sleepy so WW took them to bed but DD1 insisted she would not sleep just yet. I told her to get back in bed with WW and I went downstairs to the kitchen to continue reading. DD1 came downstairs and said she wanted to watch Nickelodeon. I went back upstairs and got in bed with WW. Let me preface this my saying I knew this was going to be a bad idea so maybe that is why I let myself get so frustrated but WW and I started talking. It was going pretty well I thought but 5 minutes later DD1 comes in the room and says she wants to go to bed (she doesn't like to be alone - ever) and wanted WW to give her cariñitos. WW said it was too late, she had had her chance, she should just go to bed.

[aside: the cariñitos is a very bad habit (IMO) that was started when MIL lived with us. MIL did it ever night and, when she left, WW began it to ease the loss of MIL for the DDs. That was years ago. It bothers me that a 7 yr old can't go to sleep without cariñitos. I have asked WW to stop the practice. This is not normal "tucking in". It takes 30-45 minutes, on average, and if WW takes less time than that, DD1 is back and forth to our room like a yo-yo for another half hour. I can't think of any other parents doing this. It is time that WW and I could have together too. Personally I don't think it is good for anyone except maybe WW and she does nothing but complain about it]

So DD1 stomped off to her room. WW and I tried to continue our talk but DD1 kept coming an going. She would come back in and kiss and hug WW and come kiss and hug me and she did this about three times. Each time she begged WW for cariñitos and each time refused. Needless to say WW and I were not doing much talking. Finally DD1 sat right outside our door and began crying. I got up and went to her and told her to go get in the bed with mom and I went downstairs, parked myself on the couch and read myself to sleep. I woke up about an hour later and went upstairs and got in bed.

So the question is: where did this begin to go out of control? I have no clue. It is very difficult to find 15 hours a week alone with WW. Five nights out of seven, by the time DD1 is asleep and WW gets in bed with me, she is asleep within 5 minutes. I never see her in the morning for more than a few minutes, if that. Ever since I have known her, she has slept 10-12 hours a night.

I did misstate earlier when I said I never take time to myself. I am up by 4:00AM every day so from 4-6 is when I have my time to do whatever I want (make a game, run, read the news or, lately, post on MB and eventually make me something for breakfast). If WW were up before I left for work, I would spend that time with her. I would even make her breakfast too.

I got out SAA again last night and am rereading the four rules. Personally I think I am doing extremely well on the rules of protection and honesty. I try my very best on the rule of care but we have never gone through the list of EN's so it is guesswork on my part. The rule of time is where I fail the most but I don't see that many hours in a week without DDs. When we are alone, she does get my full attention. If we are doing nothing more than watching a movie on TV, I put my head on her lap and face her - back to TV - as an example. We will have to change our lifestyle and establish different guidelines with DDs to get 15 hours per week alone. I am all for it because I have been telling WW for years that we need time to be together just as a couple. She is not helpful in that.

I thought I posted it earlier but I have told WW that she does not have to hide her feelings from me and that I have not one but two shoulders to cry on and they are open 24/7.

Needless to say, it was a frustrating night. In a normal marriage, it would have been a reasonably good night so I now have to ask myself the question whether I am just being impatient and I am guessing the problem is me.

believer,

gemela seems more eager to post these days. That is good. I wish she would learn to do it at a different time of day (like when I am at work). Maybe that will happen. Right now, if she posts, that time will have to come directly out of my 15 hours per week so, from that perspective, her posting is a double-edged sword.

I feel my frustration level rising again. I am going to stop reading adrainc's thread. In fact, I think I am going to stop reading MB for a while. I am going to go back and reread SAA and try to get back to basic principles. I will continue to encourage WW to post and try to give her that time without distractions from DDs.

Well, Traicionada, I was SHOCKED by the cariñitos thing. I think kids need to learn how to go to bed by themselves.

But I have some friends from Mexico (male) tonight for dinner. I'd never heard the term, so I asked them. They all do the same with their children. I said that 45 minutes seemed like a long time, but they seemed to think even longer was normal.

WOW. The difference in cultures is amazing!

I did ask about how sex happens, and they all replied that was AFTER the children were carried to bed.

Believer. Our youngest daughter is 13 years old and she still likes Stanley and I to tuck her in bed. First I have to come to her bed and then Stanley has to put the blankets around her . She is very spoiled still and she is already a teenager. The other four kids were not as intense as she is but they were baby for a long time.

So I guess is a cultural thing to spoil them that way. But Traicionados and Gemelas kids are still very young, gosh. They are still babies, its natural they want to snuggle with their parents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Myrta - I understand it now. But it is not the way most people in this country are raised. So I think it might seem like a problem to Traicionado.

I always hugged and kissed my kids. They took a bath in the evening, and then I read them stories, and hugged them and kissed them goodnight - in their room. When they were young, they were always sleeping by 8:00PM.

That gave me and my husband time alone - to talk over the day, snuggle, and have sex. The idea of a child in the bed is somewhat strange to me.

My children did come to our bed if they were sick, there was a storm, or they were afraid, but it didn't happen often.

Believer....our children NEVER slept with us when they were little. They will snuggle for a bit, but off they went to their room,their bed. I am not very fond of that idea.

But those carinitos are good for them at any time. They probably feel some tension between the parents, and in their minds they think that if they are in bed with them, everything will be ok!

It seems like Traicionado is getting very frustrated with the situation. I feel bad for what they are going thru. Its so so hard at the beginning to make it thru!

It is interesting what you learn about on a board like this. Until an hour ago, I'd never heard of this. Then I talked to my friends, and they were all agreeing that it is what they do when at home in Mexico.

I have never been bothered about the cariñitos from the standpoint that I was left alone. Sometimes when gemela is not feeling well, I do it myself. I guess my overriding concern was whether or not it was a healthy thing to do. DD2 doesn't need it. DD1 is the one that has to have everything exactly so. Even after finally going to bed, DD1 looks for any excuse to come back in to say something to us. Sometimes she gets in and has not even thought of the excuse yet. She starts stammering and looking at the ceiling.

Okay I won't worry about whether it is a good thing to do or not. From a practical standpoint, if we make the assumption that WW is going to go to sleep almost immediately after putting DDs to bed, it simply means that it makes it very difficult to find 15 hours in a week to be alone.

The MC way back when told us that we should spend at least 15 minute per night talking after kids went to bed. This went on for a couple of weeks until WW told me that she could think of absolutely nothing she wanted to talk to me about and did not want to talk to me. We haven't really spoken much about us since. All conversation is about activities, DDs, etc.

Myrta,

Just read your post. Frustrated is probably a good description. I think that is why maybe I need to get away from this and just focus on things and give gemela more time. We may be going to MC today if gemela does not have something come up that precludes it. I will go anyway. I am still working on Plan A and Plan Me. We are going to Mexico in 4 months. if things are still the same then, that may be a good time to start Plan B - just leave her there.

Traicionado -

I know how you feel. Some of the most intimate moments I had with my WH was at bedtime. We used to lay in bed and go over our day, our hopes and fears. It is one thing I really miss.

We both worked long hours, and it was kind of "our time", something to look forward to.

So what do I do now?

I realize taking my book and reading in the other room was not PC but how can I a) get gemela interested in spending time with me b) get her to help me arrange it c) make good use of it? I am doing the best Plan A I can think of but I can't even get this horse to decide it is thirsty - much less lift a hoof to do something about it. If I try to get the kids away to play in their room, I am not being a good father. Gemela will hold this against me.

What is frustrating more than anything is that I can do 100 things great and 1 thing bad and the great things go unnoticed but the 1 bad thing gets me crucified.

I am also tired. I'll go watch Rocky III i think. I am not yet giving up on gemela. I am just tired. I feel like I have been given an impossible assignment with 15 hours per week. I just can't figure out what to do with DD1. I do think she is afraid that, if she is not with us, the next time she sees us, we may not be together. I know she has been affected by all this.

traicionado,

She may decide to stay there on her own. Just some reality to remind you to take it one step at a time, one day at a time. Don't try to think so far out. You are a good plodder; plod along. You cannot control everything. Tend to those things within your control and let the others do as they may.

Hey, Dr. Harley recommends AD's for those BS carrying the Plan A torch. Why not start taking them?