Am I okay with the no SF agreement within the confines of Plan A? I know it is an EN of varying priority for man and woman but it seems to do me more harm than good at the moment. As long as she understands that we have an agreement, is this acceptable?

TRAICIONADO...I am so glad things are starting to come in place with you and Gemela. She seems to be in the right frame of mind now. But...why is it that SF its so ackward to you? DO you get movies or visions of Gemela with the OM? You are turned off by her? What goes on in your mind?

Anyways, if she is allright with the decision, I guess it should be ok for now.

Myrta

The no SF agreement is no good at all. You both need to keep that up for the health of the marriage. It will start feeling more comfortable.

No I don't think about OM. I can only vaguely remember what he looks like. I have no idea how long I want to have no SF. Not forever. Just a break where there is no pressure to try to get in the mood to have it. Last night was a pretty good night from my POV. We played golf and I played better than I have in a long time. Parred the first hole which was a good sign. I played well for a while then started playing badly. I decided to get a quick kiss from WW before teeing off and I smacked one long right down the middle against a two club wind. So I kept this up for a while. I forgot to kiss WW before one shot and hooked one only about 200 yds in the left rough. I went back for a kiss and hit again (we weren't keeping score) and knocked one 305 yds right down the throat. It was amazing. I almost went into the wadi in front of the green and I would have lost the ball. So I have correlated kissing WW to playing great golf. Don't know how that will look if I go pro. I have never seen that done on TV. She would definitely have to caddy for me.

The whole night was very nice. Hugs, kisses, etc. Went to bed and spooned, went to sleep with WW in my arms, etc. and it was all so easy because we both knew that we could have that closeness without the need for SF. She is convinced there is a mouse in our room so was up all night. I searched everywhere without success but I think the mouse is in the wall. Anyway, pretty much all night long one of us held the other one.

I may be way off so, if I am, I am open to change my opinion but I THINK that SF is more important to the man than the woman in terms of emotional closeness. In that sense SF confuses me. What I want is to be able to be close to WW without the stress of wondering whether SF may be the result or not. I guess the best way to describe it is like dating. I want to think about it in terms of dating WW and letting her open up to the closeness as well without wondering what my intentions truly are. My belief is that SF will happen eventually but I want it to happen when it decides to happen rather than doing it because I think I am supposed to. I hope that makes sense. I am not saying this is permanent or that I have requirements of WW before we return to SF, etc. I just want some freedom from it right now.

I can't explain why this is but I just feel like we can have what seems like a really good day and everything has gone so well and, if we have SF, I get the feeling that all the good that happened during the day was (wasted effort?). I just can't put my finger on it. Is this making any sense at all or I just beed stoopid?

traicionado,

You even put the word THINK in upper case to illustrate your silliness.

Surveys indicate the opposite of the above quote. Generally, to the man it is more physical. If this is not the case, why do some many women complain of not enough foreplay before SF? You never hear that complaint from men do you? To a woman, sex is all about romance and love. Find ways to instill romance in your life. Want some tips? Order a dozen roses and place each one strategically through the home. Buy twelve small greeting cards and write love notes on them. Short notes. Be a tease. Maybe with the first one, tell her how much you love her. Then with the second, remind her how beautiful she is tonight. Then tell her how happy you are going to make her in bed tonight. Hmm.. am I going to be censored for this stuff? Leave a rose and a card on her bathroom vanity. Finally leave one of her pillow with the best note yet. Then cuddle and do nothing but remind her of the notes you left for her. To a woman, all of the foregoing is foreplay. Now get to the physical foreplay. Your goal is to make her forget where she is. You will enjoy rich rewards, my friend.

Now, slap! Stop this silly schoolboy notion of dating your WW. What in the world are you thinking? You are quick to point out when I violated Plan A in the past. Now take it like a man. SF is basic to both husband and wife. No matter what you and WW consider it, it is as basic as life. Quit fighting it.

Well....okay....You obviously have not had young kids around the house in a LONG time.

Actually I did believe that the closeness, romance, etc. was more important to the woman and the physical act more important to the man. Have I been misled?

Traicionado....right after DD, I was not so much into SF with Stanley. But!!! I really loved that he desired me so much, he wanted to have SF 24/7!! If it had been the opposite I would had felt hurt, or offended. I would had thought he did not care about me, that I gross him out, for what I did!

Sex is as important for a woman as it is for a man!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well I have asked her out for a date on Thursday night. We'll see what happens.

Why not try no SF some nights, and SF others. But on the nights with no SF, you can caress, give back rubs, foot rubs, etc.

Women don't like to think the man is ONLY interested in SF. The one thing my WH was good at was non sexual contact. He used to rub my feet with lotion, my legs, back, arms, hands. It was very nice.

Try some different stuff. Once married, we often let things get into a rut - 2 minutes kissing, 3 minutes squeezing the melons, and on to the real thing. I used to be able to almost time it, if I'd taken a stop watch to bed.

This is true. But you can use the kids as an excuse or devise ways to work around them. It's okay if they see the roses. Maybe not the notes depending on what you write. Quit fighting me on this; you know I am right.

And no, traicionado, you have not been misled. Again, if romance and the emotional component of SF was so important to men, why is it that the women are the ones who complain about lack of romance?

ToddAC,

You are COMPLETELY missing the point. It is not explaining the roses lying around that I am worried about. It is DDs picking them up and playing Three Musketeers that concerns me. Kind of hard to have SF after taking the DDs to the emergency room. Just not a real mood setter. Keep in mind we just got DDs out of the emergency room about a week ago so I know something of what I am talking about.

WW loves Bon Jovi CD's. She loves "Bed of Roses". Once I bought three dozen roses, depetaled them and put them all over the bed sheet. I won't explain what happened next. Later, I had to throw out the sheet. That was okay - worth the price - I am just suggesting you don't want to do that with a really good sheet. I didn't know that before. Also, depetaling three dozen roses is serious work. I didn't know that either beforehand.

traicionado,

Why are you being so difficult?

1. Put the roses out of DD's reach.

2. Don't throw them on the bed.

Problem solved.

Three dozen is overkill. Are you trying to buy love or earn it through romantic overtures?

I hate Bon Jovi btw. But then, WW favorite is Rod Stewart.

My experience was that it takes approximately the petals from 3 dozen roses to properly cover a king size bed. WW did not count petals, divide by average number of petals per rose, then divide by 12 and calculate numbers of dozens. She never knew how many were involved. I only mention the number in case anyone reading this thread is ever considering doing it. I am guessing queen size might be about the same number but look a little better. Full size would more likely be only two dozen. Twin size would hardly be worth the effort.

BTW, there is nothing out of DD1's reach. I just found my workshop stereo on the floor this morning. I keep it about 9 feet up. Still curious how she did that.

It's called climbing. They open drawers and use those for steps. I know about ER's BTW. With three boys, I went to the ER ten times between the three of them.

You are really obsessed with those petals on the bed.

That is the point - there was nothing to climb. It is perplexing.

You are way off base. I am not obsessed in the least. I am an engineer by training. A king (American) size bed has a surface area of 48,400 cm2. There are many types of roses. There are new roses, old roses, tea roses, etc. and, as William Shakespeare said, a rose by any other name would have a different number of petals. At least that is what he was cited as saying in my "3117 English literature for engineering majors" course book. Different types of roses vary in size and number of petals but let's make the assumption that a rose petal (not yet bloomed) has an average surface area of approximately 7.2 cm2 and there are 51 petals per rose. Since a rose petal (unless pressed) is never flat, the effective projected area will be less than the true surface area. Let's make a simplification and say this will be about 91.47% for reasonably fresh rose petals.

Okay. Three dozen roses would then have a projected surface area of 12,091 cm2 or 24.98% of the total surface area of the king size bed. In other words, the petals from three dozen roses would cover a full (rounded up of course) one fourth of the bed.

BTW, in the UK, a "king" size bed is actually the equivalent of an American "queen" size. I guess this makes sense in light of the fact that, in the UK, the country is actually run by a queen. Other than that, I can offer no reasonable explanation for the discrepancy. I only mention this because if you happen to be relocating from the US to the UK and just happen to be taking a true King size mattress with you, buy plenty of sheets in the USA and take them with you since you won't find any that fit once you get there. I know because I did this once and had cold feet for a year.

So where on Earth do you get off saying I am obsessing anyway? I think you have some serious issues!

Did you mention that you are an engineer?

My calculaton for an American king-size bed is 40,194 cm2.

believer,

Backrubs are almost a nightly occurrence anyway. WW has a lot of physical problems including two slightly herniated disks. She is generally always in some level of pain and has been for years. This has some impact on the SF situation as well. Sometimes she has gone for weeks barely being able to move. I don't miss SF during those times. In sickness and in health is what I signed on board for. But it does mean that I give lots and lots of backrubs.

I have always tried to cuddle, snuggle, etc. even when SF was not a desire for one or the other of us. I have worked very hard to make sure that I don't just do that as a precursor to SF since about year 1 of the marriage.

WW has never been huge on foreplay. She rushes me generally. That actually has disappointed me many times. Since we have been married, she has never tried to "seduce" me like she did when we were dating. I miss that too. I do believe that WW seems to have a healthy attitude to SF. I have never really seen that she has any "hangups" that you read about so much in magazines.

She used to always want a G&T, screwdriver or two, or something prior and want me to also since day one of our relationship. I guess to relax her but I never asked her about it. We can't (i.e. I won't) do that here so I worry about whether that is something that is a problem for her.

ToddAC,

Is that surface area or projected area. Maybe I should have clarified - pillow top mattress. Sorry for the confusion.

traicionado,

Are you this complicated with WW?

Last night WW went to sleep at 6:30 but I gave her a backrub because she had worked in the garden and was in pain. As I was tucking her in, she said she wanted to get a gardener. I asked why. She said because gardening hurt her back. I asked why she did it and did not ask me to help - at least for the hard work. She said because working in the garden helped occupy her time and give her something to do. I asked why getting a gardener would help. That would save her back but give her much more free time which is not what she wants just put her right back where she was. Getting the gardener would solve one problem but create a far bigger one. I said I would do the gardening. She said she only wants it done a certain way and doesn't want me to do it. I said she does the same with the gardeners. She is not happy with any of their work and fires them (we have had maybe 7 in three years). I will do everything she says the way she wants - all she has to do is show me. She says that will still give her free time in the mornings when I am at work. I say so will getting a gardener. I say to water in the morning (easy on back) and leave harder work for me in the PM and on weekends and she stand over me with a whip making sure I make no mistakes.

I am not complicated. Far from it. Explaining what I do is complicated. I am as simple as they come.

see you are talking! Great!