Yep, it feels awful for months and months. Get used to it.

Oh my gosh, Traicionado...you should had seen my husband the first months after DD. He was suffering so so much,he lost so much weight, he aged so much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It was horrible to see him like that. Seeing him that way, made me stronger and more resolved to win him back and save my marriage.

You will be sad,angry, ready to give up for a long time. But it gets better, and you realize that it was worth it.

Dont give up so soon. YOu dont sound like a quitter(?) I dont know if I spelled that right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Good luck....

P.S. I hope Todd is not suffering with his headaches so'
much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You should try contacting him if he does
post.

I forgot to say,,,,my husband looks great now!! He gained most of his weight back, and he looks much better than ever!!
He is very handsome and young looking again. And he seems to be very happy with his decision to keep me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Myrta,

Cuando WW regresó de los EEUU, yo había perdido 10.2 KG en tres semanas. Tuve que ponerme una toalla bajo de mis jeans para que no se me caieron cuando me fuí a buscarla en el aeropuerto.

No me reconoció. Llegando a la casa, le enseñé que entraba en sus jeans talla 27. ¡Horrible!

Antes de este asunto, nunca tenía canas. Ahora estoy lleno. No se me van a quitar jamas. ¿Quizas Grecian Forumla?

Believer,

Just full of good news as always! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I went to the dentist last week. I remember he said it was going to hurt just a little bit. No seriously, I guess I can be miserable for a while if there is a purpose to it. Yesterday while I was watching the kids play in their new temporary clubhouse, I listened to them laugh and was thinking that I would prefer they keep laughing if at all possible.

I just see gemela still mooning over OM and, while I understand and accept that, I don't see her getting anywhere near committing to the marriage. I just thing she is trying not to burn her bridges - yet.

Well, I'm going to post the Love Must Be Tough excerpt that I have already posted twice today. I don't think you will be able to do a good Plan B, which is the next step - several months from now. So here it is - be thinking about having a letter ready, but keep it on the back burner for now.

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one’s life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a “stranger”… a competitor ... a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let’s look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to “fool around” or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I’m sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, “I think I’ll die if you don’t marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don’t turn me down,” etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, “Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I’ve only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I’ll go straight out and kill myself!”

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to “sell himself” to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn’t love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: “John [or Diane], I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn’t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I’m aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I’m going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He’ll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.”

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can’t believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn’t necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.

“But there must be a catch,” he thinks. “It’s too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she’ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She’s really weak, you know, and she’ll crack under pressure.”

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously “grabby” lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, “How can I get out of this mess?” he now asks, “Do I really want to go?” Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.
This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace.” Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture.

Believer,

Now I am going to be guilty of doing what Bigger says I always do - read into a post what I want to.

I can see from the excerpt you posted that it might be best if I not only did not discourage contact between WW and OM but actually encouraged it. Wouldn't WW then be free to make a more objective choice?

WW still has two suitcases out and available so she can pack on a moment's notice. I am not sure what behaviors you are suggesting I change so will mull on this one a bit. You and Myrta have me going two different directions this morning - at least that is how I am reading it.

Hey Traicionado,

you know I think I know what's wrong with your situation. It's YOU. You should be focusing on yourself! That's plan A and that's what you should be doing because the A is not "strictly" over because Gemela may still be thinking of OM and hasn't really committed herself to make the marriage work. At least that's the impression I get.

So you should be in plan A and working on YOURSELF and not concentrating so much on what SHE's doing. You CANNOT change her, she has to do that herself. I really think you have to work on yourself, concentrate on yourself and STOP watching what's happening with her. She has her own times.

Detach a little from trying to be in recovery because I don't see that you two are, yet.

Just my opinion, remember I don't have much "experience" .

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are right. It sounds right anyway. I get back to what I posted a way long time ago (couple of days maybe?) that this part of the process is not well documented. This quagmire of a never-ending Plan A/failure to commit to recovery/infinite withdrawal. There is a lot about how to start, a lot about how to end but not a lot about this vacuum I find myself in at the moment.

I still think you may be on to something. I am just not entirely sure I know how that translates into actions all the time. I need a better guidebook. I can't find much useful in SAA to help me at this moment. I have read the four rules again but I can't go much beyond that. I think I am just going to shut up for a while and let things just happen as they happen.

I think believer may be right also in that I should maybe give up on the idea of the M and just let fate take its course. If the M works out - great, if not - great.

I do still love gemela. I have not yet lost that.

BTW, crying is fine. It's actually very therapeutic in my opinion. let me tell you my experience.

after d day I cried for about a year. Most of the time nobosy noticed, in spite of all the crying I managed to function quite well. I enjoyed crying, it seemed to let out the sadness, which was the main emotion I felt. Never got to a true anger stage. Crying made me thirsty, but that's OK.

Anyway, after more than a year I was still crying very frequently but my main eotional problem was that I couldn't ENJOY my new job, and I should have been enjoying. I could do it just fine, but I wasn't enjoyingit. So being an MD, I knew how I could solve that. I went to see a psychiatrist and told him my story and of course I cried as I always did in those days. So he gave me ADs because it had been more than a year (that's the period they consider normal grieving) and I've been enjoying the job ever since. But I stopped crying. And I missed that. I missed letting the sadness out.

Luckily on my 20th wedding anniversary I went to talk to a priest and HE has so much empathy I cried again, and I cried for 3 days. This was 10 days ago. Now I cry when I feel touched by kindness. But I'm glad I can cry again.

Before d day I rarely cried.

So that's my experience with crying. I am now comfortable with it.

I find I can't cry right now. I want to at times but I can't. I try to and can't. I am even a failure at crying.

Traicionado,

YOU ARE NOT IN RECOVERY so do not focus on the marriage at this moment. CONCENTRATE ON YOU!

that means that you rethink the kind of person and husband and father you would like to be and WORK to make that true. DON't DO IT FOR GEMELA, DO IT FOR YOU. for a little while, put SAA aside.

If you were in plan B, like I am, it would be easier to realize what you have to do, because the WS is not around. It's still hard not to try to find out what the WS is thinking or doing or what effect what we BS are doing is having on them. But finally you get it. You can be a BETTER person , wife or husband, mother or father, employee engineer etc and that's what you set your sights on. You detach from the WS because the tie you had has been severed.

That's what you have to do. Work on yourself and STOP trying to force a relationship that isn't there at this moment.

This doesn't mean that you ignore Gemela. Because she is there with you (which is different in plan B) you have to be the best husband, but you do not interpret or try to interpret or react to HER. She will have to FIX herself and if she needs your help she will have to let her know. Be there for her if she needs you, let her know that she CAN count on you WHEN SHE"S READY, but in the meantime, you are working on YOURSELF.

I'm not very good at expressing myself, i think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You express yourself just fine. If you have any doubts, just write to me in Spanish. I'm okay with that. The one who is having problems with expression is me.

What I am stuck on is what appears to me to be a fine line between being a "great husband" and "detachment". I have to detach myself from gemela a bit but too much detachment becomes almost an LB. This is my current struggle. I know I am not explaining this very well. I know that Plan A is about me. I also know that I have to detach myself from the M. But I come close to apathy at times. Very close.

Listen, you have to sit down and write down the things you think you should do. For example: DD's homework. So you come home, and BECAUSE IT'S IN YOUR PLAN, you happily and merrily go about helping DD with homework. The key here is that you HAPPILY and MERRILY do it.
You play Golf? ok, PLAN your weekly schedule and tell Gemela that those days and hours are the ones that you will be playing this week. You'd love it if she joined you. Then you go ahead and happily go play your game. You must be honest about these things. Don't do them unless you are convinced that YOU want to be that person.

Is that understandable?

btw, "canas" are sexy!

Okay. But you should read the quote in your own signature line. You do realize you are arguing with an idiot, don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, gemela is the only one who plays golf alone. I only ever play if it is an activity she wants to do with me. I know you just used that as an example but I mentioned before that I don't take time for myself except between 4AM and 6AM. Anyway, I take your point. Thanks.

Traicionado you are not an idiot. You are too intelligent for your own good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

so what you have to do is follow the basic instructions: be yourself, look inside your soul and see what YOU want to do and do it! Simple. At this point that's what it's about. YOU BEING YOURSELF AT YOUR BEST! What you should aim for is being happy and as long as Gemela is NOT committed you depend on yourself to BE HAPPY.

It's simple but complicated. But for example, I'm sure that hurting Gemela doesn't make you HAPPY, so you won't do it. See?

But what if the "canas" are on your back? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

(Just kidding - I don't really have canas on my back - I dye those)

Hey traicionado!
I don't have experience with "canas" on backs, I'll think about it and let you know!

What time is it now over there? I'm totally lost with time differences. It's 9:45 am here

No I have no back hair. Thank goodness. I'd get it waxed if I did.

That puts me six hours ahead of you and, since you are in LA (and speak Spanish), that limits the choice of countries you could be in. Hmmm. No "gaucho" or tango jokes are in order then.

......