I did buy the flowers because it is what I wanted to do. I expected no reaction out of WW one way or the other. I regret doing it because it seems romantic gestures are abhorrent to her and make her uncomfortable. I did buy the flowers for me. I regret the discomfort it cause her. Even so, point taken.

Yes, it is starting to sink in. I do understand what you are saying. That is why I made the comment earlier about gemela "getting stuffed". That is what I was trying to get at. I don't care what her reaction is. She can be positive or negative. It can't affect my behavior if my behavior is genuinely "me". I think Myrta missed my point, slapped me pretty good and left me smarting all day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I am resistant to AD's. I am not saying no - just I am resistant. WW takes cipralex. Is that any good? I can maybe buy it OTC here. Don't know. Tried to go yesterday but I just got unlucky enough to hit the pharmacy right at prayer time.

Hi Traicionado,

Sorry I'm back only 12 hours later! I can't post at work although since I have some posts sent to my e mail address I do get to read them if I have time!

I did say you were intelligent! You do get the point.

Now the next step is to try to actually be HAPPY! I know, sounds crazy, but the truth is that it all depends on oneself. So if you decide to try to be happy and focus on things that make you happy, you can act happy!

Even for a little while at a time. It just helps to know that it can be done and hopefully it will become permanent.

I have weeks I'm really happy! It helps to experience nature.
If you could see where Still Seeking lives, you would probably understand how he is so wise and calm and happy! It's really beautiful.

I don't know what kind of natural places or phenomena you have over there...

I can act happy. I can be happy with my DDs. I cannot be happy with WW. I try but cannot. Let's forget about gemela, forget about the affair, forget about this HPV that is in never-ending outbreak and is keeping me in constant discomfort.

Let's say I am not married. I am dating a girl. I love this girl but not matter what, I know she doesn't love me and is in love with someone else. Can I be happy when I am with this girl? If I didn't love this girl, it might make it easier to be happy when I am with her.

Maybe the trick to being happy with gemela is to not love her.

Natural phenomena? Let's see. We have sand. And then there is some other sand. Sometimes the sand moves from here to over there. Sometimes it moves back. Sometimes it won't and we shovel it back.

I can see that you are not happy today. I'm sorry, I wish I could help...

so tell me, what are the things you like...

By the way, it's ok to feel bad

Tomorrow may be a great day!

cc46,

Can you honestly tell me that what WW is going through is normal? That she is so madly in love with OM even now? So head over heels for a guy that she truly did not know that much about? I say she didn't because she didn't know things like his nationality, the truth about his parents, etc. I know that the only thing that matters is what she believes but she just can't seem to let this go. Is there a chance this will ever end? What am I waiting for? Is this something all WW's do and is it something they eventually get over with time?

What makes me happy?

1) My DDs
2) Fixing things for my DDs (because they break a lot of things)
3) Standing on a dune or jebel with my eyes closed and feeling the wind until the point that I feel the wind go through me and I become a part of it and I am no longer there.
4) Building things
5) Riding my Harley
6) Running
7) Christmas
8) Weight-lifting
9) Making computer games for kids
10) Riding my Harley (did I mention that already?)

Oh, I can't believe you got her to post on tear's thread. Good for you.

TRAICIONADO...Your wife's emotions right now are pretty normal. Why can't you believe that? I was like her, and many others here. We went thru all those crazy feelings for the OM, thinking we were in love, but we were not!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

YOu have to give your marriage a good hard try and time will tell you. If after eight months maybe a year, things are still the same, then I would re-consider the situation. Right now , is way too early to think everything is lost.

I dont know why can you believe me, I am a FWW, and my husband and I have a good successfull marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

For your first year, did Stan-ley never have any doubts? I was just now making everyone pancakes for breakfast and the thought occurred to me that I am trying to convince WW to stay in a marriage she does not want. Somehow that seemed wrong and it made me feel bad. Some days I have hope and believe I am doing the right thing for all of us. Other days I think I am being unfair to WW. Today is a other day.

BTW, forgot one. For some unexplained reason, oreos seem to make me happy too. Let cc46 know that, will you?

Traicionado...Stanley had many doubts the first year!!! Many,many....he had horrible days, and he had great days. He would ask me, if I was sure I was in love with him. He told me that I was welcome to go and be with OM, and he would bless the union <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. He told me many things, that I wish he had not, but he did. I stuck with him, because, I knew he was my love, he was the man that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with,not an OM that I just met. A man that had no values or integrity. I err big time, but I saw the light, and I am so glad I did, and that my husband believed in our love!

T,
I don't think there is anything "normal" about all this. In my opinion, people who fall into the "common" infidelity situations (what I mean is not people who have serious neurosis or even psychosis with important sexual components)actually do go through a sort of "mental illness". It's like other mental illnesses, depression for example. All of us have been "depressed" at some point in our lives because of loss of loved ones, loss of a job, failure etc but if we are "normal" we eventually get over it. Can you think of a time in your life when you were "depressed" over something? And try to remember what you thought and did during that period... And then one day you started looking at things differently and eventually you got back to normal, enjoying what you couldn't during the period you were depressed, looking towards the futur again and looking forward to things again.

That's normal. If after a certain period of time (for "depression" due to some life circumstance it is about a year) you aren't getting back to normal, or other behaviours surface then it is considered a "disease". And can and should be treated because there are excellent results.


In my very, very humble opinion "normal" infidelity is a "disease" which starts with fantasies when a person, the futur WS, has problems and cannot or will not try to solve them. So the futur WS has self esteem problems, for example, and looks outside their marriage for the solution, or is preyed upon by people who instinctivelt look for these kinds of situations etc.

All of us go through these experiences, you and I have done it dozens of times I'm sure, but we have probably stopped the fantasies and pulled ourselves back to reality because we are strong. We grasp "our values" our morals and our committments and even if we don't FEEL good, we know that we are doing the right thing because our FEELINGS WILL CHANGE and soon, so we do not go with our FEELINGS at that moment.
And eventually we are glad that we didn't and recognize that we want the life we have and are happy with our spouses and our kids again etc.

People who are not so strong, take one more fatal step in their fantasy world and then I think in many cases it starts snowballing into what becomes a full blown affair!

So when infidelity does occur, you have a WS who is "mentally" very altered and who's control over the situation is basically nil. I'm not going to look at the OP because that's a different angle and WE BS shouldn't waste any time or feelings for or against the OP because we have to concentrate on our S and our marriage.

Exposure, confrontation can shock the WS back into reality. That is quite common, thank God. And those As end on d day or shortly thereafter and the WS REGRETS what they have done almost inmediately.

In other cases, unfortunately too many, the WS is either too weak or has a very entrenched fantasy, and does not end the A, and that's when the BS only choice is to wait it out. According to most people who work with infidleity this period is approximately between 6 months and 2 years. (this is in my scientific and medical opinion very possible because mental "illnesses" are measured in "long" periods, not like other diseases. For example, hepatitis A is a disease which lasts 1 month, but it can be shorter like 2-3 weeks or last a little longer but if a case of hepatitis A lasts longer than 3 months you would have to look for another illness or reason for it not being cured. It would not be a normal hepatitis A. for mental things the shortest periods are about 6 months.

Have to run to work. I'll write later

I think that when a WW or WH does not fall in love with the BS, is because that transient "abnormality"of the affair has realistic components. Maybe the marriage was already in distressed, way before the onset of the Affair. Maybe there is some abuse within the marriage and the WW falls out of love with their BS. Or maybe, sometimes, the BS, does not put all his efforts in snapping their WW out of the fantasy of the Affair. Exposure is not the "key" thing to end the affair, sometimes it makes the marriage come to an abrupt end right then and there. My husband did not exposed my affair to anyone, but it ended nonetheless. And I am completely sure, and he is too, that it will not re-kindle again.

What made our marriage work again, is because we both put joint effort in trying to recover . JUst because I was showing sadness, or I was not receptive to him, that did not dissuade him from keep on trying. Of course we put some "time limits", because he was not going to be FOREVER trying to make me see the light . If after a reasonable time,(no more than a year,I think) Gemela does not snap out of her fantasy, then is a reality that they both have to face and take measures to do something else. But as of now, I think she is doing her best,as her withdrawal goes thru her body and mind. She needs to see passion from Traicionado, even if she does not receive his attentions like he would like her to.

Well, it's either that, or yer dealing with someone who just doesn't give a poop. Nothing justifies an affair, but that doesn't mean it's not important to understand what made the choice seem like a reasonable alternative to the WS.

Anyway, that's the way I see it. That's pretty core to my understanding of infidelity.

Naturally you wanna make allowances for someone who legitimately has a 'problem', and I also believe that 'mistakes' happen. I'd believe a ONS could be a mistake, but a whole affair... there's more at play there.

I´m writing this at work because otherwise I may never get back to the subject.

So we were at the point where the BS learns of the existence of the A and the WS isn´t strong enough to end it at that very moment. Here is where Dr. Harley´s plans come in. They are really brilliant.

Plan A means using certain weapons to destroy the fantasy of the affair, mainly exposure, and at the same time getting the BS “in shape” because otherwise there is nothing attractive to go back to.
It is also a good way to begin the new marriage based on more knowledge about relationships and better ways of dealing with problems.
YOU HAVE TO GIVE plan A a chance to work. This is where there are many different opinions. From my point of view Dr. Harley has said that plan A should last as long as you are not losing love units in a big way. So that means it is different for each situation.
Others think you should do plan A for at least 6 months, some for less, some for more etc.

However long it is, I do believe that, for the same reasons I stated above for mental events, that it should be measured at least in weeks. A 3 day plan A has no meaning. 3 weeks is probably the shortest plan A that might have an impact.
BTW “the fog” is the term we use on MB to describe the mental state of confusion, denial etc that affects all the WS and also the BS in many cases. I BELIEVE it is a temporary altered state of mind, and it´s REAL.

If given some time, (at least 3 weeks), exposure and an attractive BS, the affair is still going on, it will probably have to die “naturally”, which, as I said before, can take between 6 months and 2 years (according to the experts). That is where brilliant plan B comes in, because any other way of waiting for the affair to die so that the marriage has a chance, erodes the BS´s love, respect etc for the WS, and it also probably prolongs the A because contact and drama fuel the A.

Now what has all this have to do with you?

I don´t recall if you were on MB soon after d day, I have the impression you started posting quite a while later, when the OM was already out of the country. If my memory is correct your d day was quite a while ago (oct or nov?) so I can imagine you are very tired of all this. You have been VERY patient.

The thing is I don´t really know what happened between d day and the moment when you started posting. What I think I have understood is that you exposed and the OM left the country effectively ending the physical aspect of the A but not the EA.
My interpretation of what then happened, only from what Gemela and you have posted is that the EA continued on Gemela´s part and you were patiently waiting for it to end. I´m not sure you were really doing plan A, because I have no details of what went on between you during that time until you decided that maybe the exposure hadn´t been enough and asked about exposing to your FIL.
I think that maybe there was too much relationship talk, YOU concentrated too much on the OM, you were concentrating on your MARRIAGE while Gemela was probably in a full blown EA. This is JUST MY INTERPRETATION, I may be totally wrong, I´m not an expert or a specialist and I´m only giving you my impressions because you ask for them (didn´t you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )

So what´s happening now? I think Gemela has been in NC for a few weeks BUT is only just starting to come out of the fog. And when I say this, I mean just a few days. I believe she´s only now starting to realize what happened. So in the next few weeks I hope progress will be faster. That´s all I will say about Gemela because I post to her for her on her thread.

I don´t think you have really done your part of plan A, so now´s a good moment to concentrate on YOU.
Are you a person YOU admire? Are you a person YOU respect? Are you the father that you dreamed of being? Are you the father you want your girls to remember?
And last but not least are you the husband that Gemela needs and wants? (according to Gemela of course. It should not be what YOU think that G needs or wants)

So while you concentrate on finding out those things about yourself, I would suggest you act good, be nice, enjoy the enjoyable things, go feel the sand, ride your harley, play with the girls and BE THE PERSON YOU WANT TO BE. Do not try to interpret Gemela´s actions or words, unless she asks you for help or wants to talk about the M etc, that is unless she begins talking of recovery.
I sound like I know what I´m talking about! Sorry, it´s not supposed to be that way, I´m not an expert, I´m sort of thinking out loud. Actually, don´t pay any attention to me if you think it doesn´t help.
OK, back to work and I´ll be posting this tonight when I get back home.

Okay yes I am beginning to understand. Slowly. But surely.

Gemela brought a copy of SAA back with her from the USA shortly after Dday so that is where I started. Even before she came back, I read through all I could find which was on survivinginfidelity.com. Gemela came back assuring me the A was over. I found out that was a lie. She assured me that she would ned it. That was a lie. I had an "incident" with the OM which resulted in him losing his job and being deported. I did not initiate it. I had left him alone until he made a huge mistake and then I stopped caring what gemela said and ran him off. I get the full blame for that from gemela even though I never started the incident - I just finished it.

I began posting on SI for a while but was recommended ny someone to leave there and come here. I am extremely glad I did. I won't go into why.

I admit I did not fully understand the focus of Plan A until you explained it to me finally.

I think yesterday in Bahrain turned out to be a really good day overall for most concerned. I did buy AD's OTC so started taking them yesterday. I will say I made a comment to WW that was not meant to be hurtful in any way. Just my sense of humor but I can see now that she took it personally and I very much apologized for it - very very much. We were in a shopping center buying shorts for DD1, had "frescati's" and were walking out. I saw a really nice blouse in a window that I thought might be nice for WW. I stopped to look at it. WW stopped too and started looking. I didn't say anything. (keep in mind that what I am writing took place in the span of about 5 seconds) I was thinking about maybe going to get her to try it on. Then I am thinking that buying a blouse for WW is maybe not really what I should be doing right now. Then I notice the boulse next to it is a camiseta con tirantes and I realize that is what WW is honed in on. Now I realize that if I mention anything about the blouse, she is going to want to try on the one with tirantes and I understand that this will eventually lead to an argument so I turn and start walking again with her and DDs. Then she makes the comment about whatever it was she was staring at (I have no clue what she actually saw because I was not looking at it). She half laughed about what she was and said it was "entrada facil". It just popped out of my mouth. No DJ or LB intended. It is just my sense of humor. We make half-jokes about the A quite a lot. It is really the only time we ever touch the subject - in a joke. But with no ill-will intended, I said "que me importa ya?". Big mistake. Anyway, I crawled all over myself apologizing.

The day was okay overall. I focused on DDs. Originally I had planned the day to get baby-sitting so that WW and I could have the day alone. She was not able or not interested to get babysitting so we made it a family day. I won't go into all the details. I feel a little detached from WW but that is okay. I think I am struggling trying to find the right balance - the right way to treat gemela and even to think about her. Last night when we got home, it was cool outside and getting dark. DDs wanted to open their Bratz things which, if you have never done it, takes about an hour. Nuclear weapons are not that well packed. Anyway, I am cleaning up the kitchen and gemela comes downstairs dressed to go outside. I tell her it is late and getting dark and I will do the gardening in the AM. She says let's go outside for a while - all she is going to do is sweep. I tell her to go ahead - I will be upstairs with DDs. She didn't go. She went upstairs and helped open the Bratz.

Anyway, long story short. Yes I think I am being the father that my DDs want and are very happy with although I am stricter with them (or at least more consistent) than WW. Even so, I think they always need to be given the same boundaries. When I discipline them, I do it in much "better" ways than WW. I don't yell at them or hit them. That is her method. On the other hand, since I catch it earlier, I don't need to go to extremes. I jump in when I see a wrong behavior, WW jumps in when she starts to get annoyed by the wrong behavior. I only bring this up because in the Hard Rock Cafe, the DDs were getting bored and started to expand their area of influence beyond the booth where we were sitting. I kept hauling them back in. WW said to let them go. I think she may have just wanted to relax a bit. I don't like kids - any kids - running loose around restaurants so I won't let mine do it. I was telling DDs to come back, WW was telling me (in front of DDs) to let them go. I told WW that I did not like it when kids behaved like that and did not respect parents who allowed it and I knew for a fact that she didn't either. Anyway, DDs stayed and WW dropped the subject.

I am rambling. It is 2:47 and I have two DDs sick and have been running up and down while writing this so I am totally lost.

Anyway, I am working on me and Plan A. I am somewhat distanced from gemela. I am not even thinking about the relationship. I am being a good husband - great husband in fact. I am not being a good "amante". I don't feel like it and she doesn't want it anyway. Her thoughts are all with OM so she doesn't miss me.

Thank you so much for your post. It has been very helpful. I'll go back and read again tomorrow when I am awake. I was telling ToddAC the other day that if it hadn't been for MB, I am sure I would already be divorced.

I'm glad you are doing so well. I do think that things will get better.

Please be careful about taking what I say literally because I insist that I'm not an expert. You're intelligent enough that you will realize what you can use and what you can't, what works and what doesn't.

ADs take a while to work, about 10 to 20 days. but they do help.

I'll checkon you tomorrow. Good night!

Don't worry. If things don't turn out well, I won't blame anyone outside these four walls. Go ahead and keep pushing. As I already said, if it had not been for MB, WW would not still be here. The last violation of NC would have been the last straw.

Maybe some day I will be an expert at all this. I sure hope not. What a terrible idea! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm not worrying about the blame, I worry that I might not be giving you useful advice.

The worst that can happen is that I get divorced.

The AD medicine is one pill a day. You said it takes 20 days to work so I took 20 pills today. I feel pretty good.

DD2 is sick so WW and I are not going to be spending much time together today.

I said 10 to 20 days! you should have taken only 10!

seriously I hope you're taking one a day...

I'm sorry dd is sick. Hope she gets better soon

Divorce is far from the worst thing that can happen.

Not all marriages are meant to be. (With your tendency of reading what you want out of messages I really have to emphasize I am not specifically referring to your marriage with this comment!)

The worst thing that can happen is if you don’t realize what you want until too late, making it unattainable. You really have to make up your mind whether and why you want to reconcile and then go for whatever solution you decide.

It is my opinion that your wife is open for reconciliation. I think Myrta can confirm Gemelia has come a long way in the last weeks.

You have sometimes referred to the 5 stages of grief. I guess you think you are on the stage of acceptance. Be careful – it sounds like you are in the stage of depression.