I think ADs are a double edged sword. I have tried a few different meds and had varying experiences. The bottom line: I'm glad I had the experience of taking them. There was a time where I was very low and depression was totally fogging my thoughts. ADs gave me a taste of 'reality' and that was invaluable at the time.

That being said, I will do my utmost to avoid ever going on them again. The withdrawal was VERY scary. These are serious drugs that totally upset your natural chemistry in some pretty profound ways.

Oh yeah... one other thing...

I think you guys are gonna make it.

John

Traicionado:

I was thinking about your question about passion.

I was very passionate about getting my marriage back. However, I did this within the context that I was not competing with OM for Myrta. I also understoofd that Myrta was 100% into trying to save the marriage. My goal was to recapture the innocence of the marriage and to make sure Myrta was NC to avoid dealing with a person in perennial withdrawal. Recovery is brutal even with a WW that is 100% cooperative. I cannot imagine what it would be with a disinterested WW.

Many of these affairs are like puzzles with no solution. Myrta going with OM was an impossibility and that was as clear as the light of a sunny day. So I never worried about that angle. The sad story is that many men and women fall in affairs that have no possible happy ending and then they find themselves unhappy for the rest of their lives. That was my other goal--------I had no intentions of living with a woman that was pining for OM (as illogical as that was).

My worry with your situation is the difference in age and the fact that OM is even younger than Gemela. In this instance youth is a valuable commodity, However, I suspect OM has no other positive attributes other than his youth.

Good Luck!

Stan-ley,

The age difference was at the forefront since before the wedding. It was never a problem for WW but now suddenly is. I have told her since Dday that if the age difference is her complaint, there is nothing that can be done to resolve it so she needs to walk. I can change a lot of things but that one is difficult. Personally I think she is using that as an excuse and I also think it is an idea that OM constantly hammers her with so partly she believes it because he made her believe it.

The curiosity is (and I have always wondered if maybe there weren't more to it than coincidence) that SIL's OM is exactly the same age as me. Now while age difference may be a problem for gemela, it will be a tough sell to her family in Mexico. Gemela was in an environment in Dubai where she was surrounded by "beautiful" people. Dubai is a very materialistic place. Now, in Saudi, she is surrounded by women who, on average, are 10-15 years her senior. The younger group of women are college students in their early 20's who return her during school vacations. Gemela told me early on when she made her daily trips to the pool that she abhorred seeing the older women and got into basically a "best shape" contest with the college girls. That is why the bikini's got skimpier and skimpier with time. Even thoughshe should not have been wearing bikini's, the pool is one of the few places here where she could get by without having to dress conservatively. Even though she should have been in one-piece suits, the guys enforcing the rules are all young bachelors so they were not too strict.

So gemela did not have much of a peer group to socialize with. On the other hand, she did not make much effort to find them. There are women here that are her age and she shies away from getting involved with them. Maybe just a result of the A in that she wants to continue to make herself unhappy complaining that she has no friends.

Maybe I am just on the wrong track with this whole thought process but gemela and I have talked about the age difference since Dday and I do think she struggles with it now. I also don't think the problem is necessarily my age. It may be her age. I could also be wrong. I do doubt that her OM will be too interested in her in a few more years - if they would even stay together that long. If gemela does decide she cannot continue in the marriage, from a practical standpoint, I think she should make that decision sooner rather than later so that she can take full advantage of her assets in finding another husband. She is never going to do well as a single person IMO.

Right now I just hope to give this time to let gemela get through her withdrawal - assuming she ever does - and then we can decide whether there is any future for us at all. If this marriage falls into one of Bigger's "not meant to be" category, Gemela needs to end it the "right" way - not through an affair. If a marriage is not right, you get a divorce and then you find someone else. Gemela just forgot a step.

Traicionado,
you're on the right track. Just wait for a little more time.

The ADs should help reducing the pain which allows you to think better. If they don;t do that quit taking them. I've only taken them for 3 months and the psychiatrist told me that next month he thinks I should start cutting the dose in half in order to start getting off them.

It should be done slowly.

I think you know what to do.

cc46,

I think you and Myrta are trying to tell me the same thing but in different ways. I think it is starting to sink in. Rest assured I am committed to doing my best. I still love gemela and still want the M to work. If it is not meant to be, I don't think right now is the time to make that decision. I have un-detached myself from gemela. I will give gemela and the M everything I have. Tell Bigger to calm down. I think things are going to get better.

I will encourage her to keep posting to MB. I think it helps her to be able to vent. It is not hard to convince her to post anyway.

Hi Traicionado,

I know you are committed to your marriage and want to do the best. That's why I wanted to give you a different perspective which may get better results for you.

I don't quite agree with those who say that some marriages are not meant to be. I don't think that can be said about marriages which have been "real" and "good" and are the affected by some event (like infidelity, or death of a child, etc). In these cases it mainly depends on the WILL of the couple. They both have to want to recover from these ordeals. And wanting to recover isn't something that is decided on the spur of the moment. There arecircumstances that require certain periods of time and if you do not take that into consideration, teh marriage will not be, not because it's been given a "fair" chance, but because someone is TOO IMPATIENT.

Take the event of a child dying. I have no experience fortunately, but even if there is a certain distance between the couple initially, UNTIL grieving for the child is over the worst, they shouldn't decide about their marriage. Don't you think that sounds logical and fair?

Same with infidelity. After d day, no actions should be taken for a period of 3 weeks. That is to get over the shock and the trauma.

On d day you may be convinced you want a divorce and it's all over. But in 2 or 3 weeks, you feel different and for example MB philosophy starts to sink in. Or any other for that matter.

So TIME itself has to be considered. And what you do in that time can also be very important.

So I know you are doing fine.

How are DDs BTW? all better now?

cc46,

I think the issue of whether my marriage is "meant to be" is currently off the table. I will defer even contemplating that for at least a year (assuming gemela and I make it that long) and even then I will probably not be the one to bring it up. I don't believe in fate but I do believe in predestination. Superficially there appears to be a very fine line between the two but there is actually a giant chasm.

I have also always been a four-dimensional thinker. It is an innate ability for me.

I think I finally understand my role and responsibilities. Right now the only thing that will change my mind is gemela breaking NC. That is not something I am willing to accept again. The cost is too high.

DD's are fine. They were not that sick but had enough of a cough to keep them waking themselves and each other up. Both girls are prone to vomiting when they have a cough so if we hear any noise at all, we are off like a shot to their bedroom.

I think this last week was hard on me but I think I am feeling better. I don't think it is the AD yet either. I think I am just finally starting see things from a better perspective. Bigger's 2x4 is quite effective too.

My only concern is that we might settle back into the "status quo". We still don't communicate any more than we did. Gemela still keeps everything to herself. Isn't that really what more or less started this whole episode several weeks ago with the BT? I am not sure I can remember now. I think it was the BT.

The status quo depends on you too. If you change, the whole situation changes and Gemela CANNOT continue as she is.

I do think she keeps everything to herself and because you are where you are it is more dangerous than the usual situations. She is relatively isolated socially, from family, etc. That's why it would be great if she adopted MB but she hasn't yet. Don't force her.

She seemed to have caught on here for a while, but I don't think she has posted lately. I worry about her. But I guess we should wait a while.

Actually I will pray not that she posts but that she talks to YOU. That woudl be the best.

Do let us know, if that happens!

Here you go being cryptic again.

Sorry. It wan't my intention.

What I mean is that in a relationship of any kind there is a bond between the people in the relationship. Otherwise they are just 2 (or more) people. So when one person changes the bond has to change and tehrefore the other person (or persons) have to change to adapt or change and have the first person adapt etc. This is the ongoing dynamics of a relationship.

Now, in a marriage affected by infidelity and you being the BS, your choices are: 1) tolerate the infidelity (NOT an OPTION)
2) Having learned the dynamics of affairs, know you might have to wait some months (up to 2 years ) during which Dr. Harley proposes you work to make yourself a better person AND protect yourself from the WS and the A in order to recover PERSONALLY.

3) You do what your instincts tell you. Get angry, fight, threaten, beg etc The ultimate result MAY not differ with respect to the existance or not of the marriage but I doubt recovery is the same after following Dr. Harley's principles or your own instincts. With Dr. Harley's plans you at least are working towards a BETTER recovered marriage, with knowledge (his knowledge). The other way, you may not lose your marriage, but I doubt it will be very good after the infidelity.

4) You just divorce

Does this help?

I'm going to walk the dog. I'll be back in an hour or so. OK?

If this is a multiple choice exam, I choose #2.

If #1 is not an option, why was it an option? Seems like an unfair test question but at least you put crib notes.

Lo que no capto bien es si me estás dirigiendo o me estás regañando.

Cabe mencionar que cualquier de los dos está muy agradecido.

No te estoy regañando!!!!!

Todavía no.

Estoy tímidamente ofreciendo una explicación alternativa. A vecs cmbiando la forma de expresión las ideas se trasmiten mejor.

Sinceramente creo que estás "down in the dumps" en este momento y quiero ofrecerte una palabra de aliento mientras esperamos que ocurra algo. O hagan efecto los ADs, o Gemela evolucione por el camino adecuado, o Dios no permita, el no adecuado. Mientras tanto creo que has captado perfectamente lo que quieres hacer pero te resistes....

Decídete. Empieza el camino. Tómalo como un plan militar: ponte objetivos, metas, plazos.

Ayuda muchisimo considerarlo un plan.

Una vez en mi vida planifiqué el menú de la semana, hice las compras de acuerdo al menú y cociné según el menú. Fue MARAVILLOSO! Mis hijas estaban tan compenetradas con el hecho de que era el menú que comían todo!

Lástima que no tengo fuerza de voluntad para hacerlo de nuevo.

Pero para mi matrimonio (o su desaparición) tengo más voluntad y tengo un PLAN. Y lo cumplo. Ayuda mucho.

Bueno. Dame chance entonces.

I am not sure which language you prefer but I honestly think I understand you a little better when you write in Spanish - if you don't mind.

Of course I don't mind! Thank YOU for telling me.

I don't know which language I prefer, but if you do prefer spanish I will write to you in spanish, but I warn you that I will have to use some english words.... we just don't have the exact ones in spanish.

Be happy. It's a beautiful day!

Nada más para tu información pero anoche intenté el SF y me lo negó. Me dijo que estaba muy cansada. La cosa extraña es que, si me acuerdo bien, es la primera vez en 9 años que me lo había dicho. No me molesta mucho pero en esto nos quedamos.

Aparte, todo está tranquilo y pasamos la tarde muy bien.
Ella está muy cariñonsa sobre todo. Nada del otro mundo pero agradable.

t,
Siempre se puede ver el vaso medio lleno o medio vacío.
Si lo ves medio vacío, te negó SF. Si lo ves medio lleno, capaz que comienza a sentirse mal por lo que hizo y por eso no podía enfrentarte. Eso es bueno. Ojalá sea el comienzo de la verdadera recuperación!

Calculo que es de mañana por ahí, aquí es de noche. No ha sido del todo un buen día en lo personal para mi, pero también ncesito estas crisis , o sea que les veo el aspecto bueno. Con los ADS me ocurre menos frecuente.

hey cc46,

I am not too worried about the SF. I was just afraid that we might be avoiding it because neither one wanted to make the first move so we might each be "blaming" the other. Well I made the intent and took that doubt away so at least the picture is a little more clear. I think it was good for both of us that at least an intent was made. Effectively I am seeing the glass half full. I am not trying to read any more into it than that.

BTW, the theory goes that there are two kinds of people - glass half full and glass half empty. There are actually three kinds and I work largely with the third kind. Aside from the two already mentioned, the third group says that the glass may be half empty but you might as well pour it out because it will be empty soon enough anyway. I am surrounded by about 50,000 of them.

I saw the thread you started yesterday. I can't imagine how heavily that must be weighing. Makes me wonder why God ever created the color grey when we apparently have no need for it. I don't know whether you studied Boyle's law or not but I suspect you did so I have seen a very interesting theory I will cut and paste that basically explains that nobody is going to heaven. This is from an email I got years ago. Here goes:

[color:"blue"]The following is an actual question given in a University of Washington chemistry mid-term paper. The answer was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, which is why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is He!! exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law, (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following: "First, we need to know how the mass of He!! is changing in time. So we need to know the rate that souls are moving into He!! and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to He!!, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. [/color]


[color:"red"]As for how many souls are entering He!!, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to He!!. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to He!!. [/color]

[color:"blue"]With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in He!! to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in He!! because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in He!! to stay the same, the volume of He!! has to expand as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If He!! is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter He!!, then the temperature and pressure in He!! will increase until all He!! breaks loose.

2. Of course, if He!! is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in He!!, then the temperature and pressure will drop until He!! freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Teresa Banyan during my Freshman year, "...it will be a cold day in He!! before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then #2 cannot be true, and thus I am sure that He!! is exothermic and will not freeze." [/color]

Thanks for the story. It made me smile!

No I don't know Boyle's Law. I'm an MD but I actually specialize in something similar to public health and scientific investigation.

Yes, the thread I started today is because of the main problem I face today. I am at this moment more spirtually "affected" than I am emotionally or physically.

I've been thinking a lot about how to "fix" this and I know I need help, but it isn't very forthcoming. Anyway, I'm getting a lot of good information.

Are you religious?

Ouch! I hate that word. I refer to myself as an agnostic Christian in that I have a very strong faith and belief system but I clearly do not know all the answers but don't feel that I need to either. In other words, I see a lot of grey. I do have a few blacks and whites but they are very few. I do not think God is nearly as complicated as we make him as someone posted in your thread. I do think language has a lot to do with how we interpret religion. Maybe if I could read the Bible in its original language, I would do better. Don't know and it is a moot point. But even the translated versions in different languages make a big difference.

For example, I read the Bible in Spanish. I used to read it in English in different versions but I found that reading it in Spanish changed my whole perception of God and his relationship with me. It opened my eyes. The fundamental reason for that is that English does not have formal and familiar tenses like Spanish does. For example, the Lord's prayer:

Reading in English, I always understood it to mean -"Padre nuestro que está en los cielos. Sanctificado sea su nombre...". In English, you can easily read it that way and my religious training or denomination of my youth probably encouraged it. It creates a spiritual detachment.

But the first time I read it in Spanish - "Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos. Sanctificado sea tu nombre..." - I was in a church at the time and my legs just came out from under me. I couldn't stand up and had to sit. The detachment went away and made everything very personal.

That moment was an epiphany for me - a revelation. Anyway, I have read the Bible cover to cover at least once and maybe more. I don't need other people tell me what it says. I can form my own opinions. So I don't get too excited about which way to crack the egg. I live in a place where I face the very real possibility that some day I might have to make the choice to die for my religion. Yes I would do that. One of my "blacks".