Too late for me to discuss religion, I'm off to bed. Thank you for your sincere answer.

You'll be OK if you have faith.

I was thinking about an example of faith and it also touched the theme of the glass.

Water is most dense at 3.98C. I have never understood that. It is explained by a phase change but that is a superficial explanation. Most liquids do not exhibit that behavior. So why does water decide to do it? I don't need to understand why water does this in order to accept the reality of it. If I refuse to accept the reality, I may have to suffer the consequences of my denial.

Glass is half full: if water did not possess this strange property, we would not exist.

Glass is half empty: if you don't cover your pipes in the winter, they might burst and you end up with a large plumbing bill.

I guess you have to take the bad with the good...


On the language issue, there is one other "flaw" in English compared to Spanish. Now I realize this cannot be translated correctly the way I am about to describe but maybe you can understand since you speak both languages so well.

The way I REALLY used to interpret the Lord's prayer was:

"Padre nuestro que ES en los cielos".

In other words, I understood it (in English) with the other form of the verb "to be" which is where my "detachment" derived from. God is "there" (wherever "there" is) and I am here and we are completely separated - until death of course. Once I learned to think of it in the sense of "estar" instead of "ser", it made a huge difference to me. God moves around. If Spanish is your first language, what I wrote seems totally crazy but for a native English speaker, we often make that mistake in Spanish.

It is interesting that, although ser and estar are generally invariant in their usage, regarding marriage, they can go either way. Soy casado or estoy casado. I used to say "soy casado". Don't know if that means anything. I think general usage is "estoy casado" so it seems to me that Spanish does not consider marriage as permanent?

Traicionado:

You have succinctly and elegantly described my position on Christianity and God. I loved how you put it all together in a couple of paragraphs-------well done! I could never say it as well as you did.

As a Catholic I would add the element of tradition and history. Without the latter we have very little to hold on. Within this context I enjoy the rites and religious holidays.

As for Gemela:


She is still in withdrawal, but seems motivated to start recovery. She is still in the stage where marital history is rewritten (or she only remembers the negative and neglects the positive). For a FWW this is a key mechanism of defense to justify the affair. This Freudian rationalization is very important for a person with low self-esteem. If she was to view OM as a negative she would destroy her self esteem-------------therefore she needs to see some positivity in the affair.

Gemela is also dealing with the enormous dilemma she has created for herself. She now has a divided heart and realizes that life with OM is nearly impossible. The whole thing was a dream-----------she is now realizing that life with OM has virtully no chance for success. It must be awfully hard to give one’s heart away for an impossible dream--------a panacea that never existed. And now she must face her own demons-----------she fell in love (lust stage) with an impossibility and now she is tormented by the contradictions within her. The impossible love pulls one way and the long term attachment love (for you) pulls the other way.

Every time a person is faced with this ambivalence there is turmoil and stress. I cannot imagine what it would be like to fall in love with something I know I can never have--------sounds illogical if you think about it. These OMs can only be had in the dark and with the veil of secrecy. They hide behind the skirt of the WW and do their work but cannot effectively operate in daylight. This is almost a psychosis and when they call it a fantasy they are not far from the mark.

BTW, the OMs are also afflicted by the same illness. IN my case I cannot imagine how stupid it must be to fall madly in love with a married woman that sleeps in someone else’s bed every night. These OMs develop a psychosis of their own and conveniently forget that the woman the love has to provide sexual comfort to another man (the H) . And so they call it a fantasy----------Disneyland!

Hey Stan-ley,

I was thinking about a long and thoughtful response to your post and this is what I came up with:

I love gemela with all my heart. I am here for her and am willing to give her whatever she needs - including time.

BTW, I hope Myrta is not still made at me.

About the religious discussion again:

When I was a kid growing up, there were only three TV channels. Whenever the President (US) would go on TV and make a speech, the three networks would cover it. The speech might last 15 or 20 minutes and then the news commentators would come on and say "what the president was saying was..." or "what the president really said was..." or "what the president was trying to say was..." and they packed out the remainder of the hour and sometimes longer with this dialogue. They usually spoke longer than the president did because they were trying to fill the time gap.

Now, with cable, the networks no longer do that because they know nobody will watch and will instead change to a more interesting cable channel.

I prefer cable [except when it is a Discover Channel program about those previously mentioned unfaithful lionesses - I just hate them].

Hey this is a great thread!

recommend this to gemela

Could someone maybe point gemela here? I think it is something she needs to know. I liked Alphin's post because I think it is a trap that gemela would fall in to. JMO. If you think it would be good for her to read, point her to it. She doesn't surf MB too much.

Hey T, mira lo que tengo para ti:

el Padre Nuestro cantando con la música de The Sounds of Silence. Me fascina cuando se canta el primer verso, luego se continúa con la música de fondo mientras todos DICEN el Padre Nuestro de verdad y luego se canta el último verso. Beautiful! try it!

Padre Nuestro Tú que estás
En los que aman la verdad
Haz que el mundo que por ti se dio
Llegue pronto a nuestro corazón
Y el amor, que tu Hijo nos dejó,
el amor,
habite en nosotros.


En el Pan de la unidad
Cristo danos Tú la paz
Y olivídate de nuestro mal
Si olvidamos el de los demás
No permitas que caigamos en tentación
Oh Señor
Y ten piedad del mundo.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I sing it all day every day.... I have a couple of other ones which I alternate

Are you ignoring me???????

I have been in the field all day. Just got back into the office and fighting to get a password changed. Things are really quiet here. WW is about the same. She was posting on MB last night and I fell asleep before she got into bed so I have not seen much of her since yesterday. Seems MB is cutting into my 15 hour rule. We are due to meet at 4:30 to play golf.

I have a question - how can you tell when the AD starts to work? dewt gave me a really bad impression of how it affected him but I don't feel a thing. Of course - I still have 4 to 14 more days to go before it starts to work.

cc46,

Nice song. I'll get Simon and Garfunkel up on iTunes and try it out.

Yikes...

I'll try again...

I don't think all ADs are the same, and to further complicate things, I think each persons reaction is different to each AD.

For example, Paxil made me impatient and very irritable. Turned me into an [donkey; rhymes with glass].

Celexa was ok. Very non-descript.

Effexor was just like it sounded. It started to work after only a few days - but I already had Celexa in my system so it could have been that...

Anyway, you can tell when it starts to work when the symptoms of depression start to dissipate. It's not that you 'feel' any different, it's just that how you 'feel' doesn't necessarily run your life anymore. It's easier to concentrate, eat regularily, do the things you need to do.

I have Adult ADD and stress severely aggravates it. The ADs totally fixed that. A lot of my ADD symptoms just evaporated.

So anyways that was my experience while on ADs.

I'm not sure I explained it any better than last time.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

J

I woke up on the 22nd day and felt good - not GREAT, but I could definitely tell the difference. The anti-D's don't make you euphoric, just better able to cope and concentrate on what you need to do.

Hang in there.

Thanks dewt,

I guess your withdrawal problems concern me to. One thing at a time however.

Hey, I have a question. I got an email from the OM a month or so ago after I made those phone calls to his family and friends about him having HPV. In his email, he says he is totally clean and will send me his doctor's records.

My question is this: do you think a "normal" person with no STD's would want to take on a woman known to be contagious with HPV knowing full well that he would be infected with a disease that was incurable? Is this just a sacrifice that someone is willing to make for love? As much as I love gemela, I have to admit that is a step I might not be willing to take - well - I did but I didn't know she was contagious at the time so I don't count. Opinions?

Wow! I was so worried about you. I hope you are okay believer. I'm glad you are back!

T - I'm in Seattle helping my dad and mom. He is 91 and has several illnesses. We are trying to get things set up to make it easier for him to stay in his own home.

As long as you are okay. Take care.

Thanks - you take care too. Things are fine. This came up suddenly - my dad got real weak and was falling, so I flew to Seattle to see what can be done.

Also my sister is moving to a new home, can't get off work, and I'm helping her. It makes it almost impossible to post, but I did get time this morning.

Glad things are going well. I thought of Gemela when I read the Anatomy of wife's affair thread, especially the part about him supporting the reality, while his wife went through her fantasy.

Oh yeah...

That...

Ok, well they were definitely NASTY... until I realized what they were, I gotta admit I was pretty darned scared...

I did not follow the recommended cut-down pattern though... I just weaned myself off them over about a week. Clearly that was not long enough.

Anyway, after all my experiences, it boils down to this...

I'm glad I took them. If nothing else, they gave me a good idea of what 'normal' feels like. That alone had such an impact on my global perspective. A good impact.

That being said, they are serious drugs and I would like to avoid them in the future if at all possible.

J

T,

I guess I felt inmediately better when I started taking Ads but that was not THEIR effect.

What I sense is that I don;t feel that pain, mental pain that makes you burst into tears when you are alone. The pain is in the background and I know its' there bu I dont feel it.

It helps to be ableto function better and think in a clearer way. I've been able to ENJOY things again, in spite of the pain.

Next month I should start getting off them. I hope I'm ready to stand the pain or whatever comes. I hate taking medication but allthis WAS affecting my life and I can wallow in pain and pity etc if I'm alone but I have to think of my 3 teenage daughters and give them a good example. So they have been very helpful.

I hope this helps.

dewt,

Thanks. I guess the withdrawal is not something I need to concern myself with any time soon. I was a bit disappointed by believer's post though. I thought I only had 3 to 13 days more to wait but now it could apparently be as long as 15 more days (based on her 22 day experience). Bummer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Funny thing is though that since cc46 set me straight about the "relationship" issue, things have gotten so much better.

I had a long ride to Ras Tanura and back yesterday and that gave me way too much time to think. My biggest danger these days. On the ride up, I was thinking about just giving up. Yes I admit it. I was thinking that maybe gemela doesn't really want to be in this marriage and I should just let her go. Then I sat through a mind-numbing 4 hour meeting giving me yet more free time to think. All I could think about was DDs. Imagining them crying over mommy and daddy being apart. I decided that there is no way I can do that to them. How can I hurt them like that for my own selfish reasons? I decided that, if we are going to separate, it will have to be WW's choice and hers alone and I am not going to give her motivation to make that decision. By the time I got back to Dhahran, I was good to go. I am really torn by all this. All I want is for gemela to be happy and it hurts me to see that she is not. I wish that some day we can all be happy as a family. We'll see.

I met WW at the golf course and I played the best I have in a long time. This is the first time I have played on this course and not lost a golf ball. Amazing. Nothing but fairways. I beat the socks off gemela.

Oh and Bigger, thanks for the reminder about the three-legged dog. You do have your ways, don't you.

cc46,

Just saw your post while I was deleting my accidental "gemela" post. I guess I just don't know how these things are supposed to make me feel. I want to have my "real" feelings whatever they are. On the other hand, if ADs can stop these mood swings or at least smooth them out a bit, it will be worth it. They are not cheap here OTC. I can get them free if I go to the psychiatrist but I refuse to ever speak to that woman again. I found out that, although she is American and studied at Harvard, she has lived here her entire life. Her parents worked for Aramco. She left to go to University and then came back here to live. WW told me that she ran to our MC the day I walked out of her office. The MC apparently ripped her a new one if you know what I mean. Good for her.


Mother,

Is there anything I can do about my sister (I can't say EA here because that has a special meaning on this website)? I just feel terrible about it. Tell me what can I do? I know you are stressed. Don't worry about me - I will be fine. Just worry about her.

Hey T,

You're doing fine!

Learn the song and sing!