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Do you want me to send you some Oreos? How about GS cookies? Would you like some milk to go with them?

Anyway, the following is from Shirley Glass's website. These seem like good guidelines for determining when to stay and when to go.

http://www.shirleyglass.com/reflect_relationships2.htm

And, BTW, Dr. Pittman, to my knowledge, is the only published therapist who does not blame the cuckold for the affair.

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you wanted statistics: Larry did a great job sometime in 2005 finding all of these:


Quote
Modified to take out the male bashing. I was in a bad mood that day

I got this stuff from public web sites that list government statistics and from web sites where professionals attempt to define statistics for affairs.

The impossible statistic.

If you do a comprehensive search for infidility statistics, you will be confronted with estimates that are all over the place. Given that people lie to investigators and that women tend to lie more than men, we are left with estimates and the estimates are horrific by any measure even if you believe all the people who say they didn't do it.

That said, there are some statistics that can be verified because they are public record. Here are some that relate to divorce.

Marriages that survive until; Year 5 - 82%, Year 10 - 65%, Year 15 - 52%, Year 25 - 33%.

Percentages of divorce (1997) show a rate of 50% at some point in the marriage for first marriages and 60% for second marriages. Looks like a lot of people do not learn from their first try, which should be no surprise or maybe there is something in the statistic.

The percentage for those who admit infidility is the cause of the divorce is 17%. I suspect (absolute certainty) that the rate is much higher because irreconcilable differences is 59%, a catch all where people don't want to explain their reason(s). In point of fact, some professionals that include lawyers who should know, is that affairs are THE main cause of divorces.

Public statistics for infidility range from a low of 23% for women to over 80% for men. Additional statistics and opinions place the rate of infidility for women at nearly 60% and drop the rate for men to 70-75%.

Peggy Vaughn believes that the rate of infidility in marriages approaches 80%. She arrives at this conclusion by comparing the rate for women against the rate for men. Not all men cheat and not all women cheat. One or the other will cheat or in some cases, both will cheat. Whoopie.

Whatever the statistics, there is no doubt that infidility has been with us throughout recorded history and is likely to be at a very, very high rate currently.

Ok, if we belive Peggy Vaughn, and we believe the lawyers, then we come up with an educated guess or two. Speculate that infidility is the cause of 80% of divorces, and the divorce rate is 50% (known fact), thus about half of those who have affairs get a divorce and half do not.

Remember, we are playing with statistics, not your particular situation. We are also dealing with my conclusions based on public records. You are more than welcome to do your own research.

Here are some more statistics. I have seen professionals who state that less than 25% of affairs result in a marriage for the affairees. Other professionals detail the statistic as about 5%, with the most credible posting a 3% rate. This comes from gleaning through over 30 web sites and reading, reading, reading.
Quote:


Here is what Peggy Vaughn says:

Conservative estimates are that 60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair. These figures are even more significant when we consider the total number of marriages involved�since it's unlikely that all the men and women having affairs happen to be married to each other. If even half of the women having affairs (or 20 percent) are married to men not included in the 60 percent having affairs, then at least one partner will have an affair in approximately 80 percent of all marriages.



Ok, so far, we have 80% of marriages infected by an affair, with half of them resulting in a divorce, with a 25% down to 3% rate of the affairees ending up in marriage. To point out lying, 41% of those surveyed said they had had an affair. 60% of those surveyed said they had been cheated on. The ones in the middle of that statistic are obviously lying.

An even more credible statistic shows that 64% of marriages where there was an affair do NOT result in a divorce, while 78% of those marriages that did stay intact are described as empty.

So what have we learned so far. A bunch of people are doing it and a bunch more are doing it and lying about it. That should come as no shock to anyone.

Here is my bottom line.

Roughly 60% to 80% of marriages - one or both spouses cheat.

Half of those marriages result in divorce - 40% of all marriages - or less, the number is actually declining in part because of web resources like this one so it would seem looking at the traffic on the web sites that deal with infidelity.

In about 10% (or less) of the cases where there is a divorce the affairees marry. There is a 75% probability of divorce in such marriages versus 60% for "normal" second marriages generally, which itself is skewed by the 75% rate. In other words, the 75% rate pulls the 60% rate higher, above the 50% rate for first marriages.

Statistically, there is a less than ONE to THREE PERCENT chance that the affairees will find long term happiness. And given the devastation they leave behind, that one is not even something to be hoped for or proud of. Overall, there can be less trauma in a divorce than there is in an affair for any number of reasons. in my opinion. But of course there IS trauma in a divorce.

Statistically, there is only a 20 - 30% chance that the marriage will be restored to something that is really desirable for both parties.

Here is the bottom line FROM WHAT I HAVE LEARNED. Your mileage may vary.

Affairs happen in upwards of 80% of marriages.

The affairees - Less than 3% happiness with each other long term. Divorce for the rest and they move on with their lives to find whatever they find, hopefully wiser.

The marriage - 25% of those who stay together find happiness (of the 40% who do stay together), meaning that TEN PERCENT find happiness. That is a rate four to ten times higher than for the affairees.

Why don't they teach this in school? It probably wouldn't make any difference. Affairs touch and devastate so many lives in our society as to boggle the mind. Affairees get their moment in the sun, followed by devastation to themselves in upwards of 99% of the time, while marriages end up devastated at least 80% of the time, maybe closer to 90%. And that means that there a ton of betrayed spouses who experience what they experience.


cc

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ToddAC,

I can't see that web site. It is blocked by our proxy server. Is it porn?

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So if Peggy Vaughan were to marry Frank Pittman, what are the odds that they would divorce? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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cc46,

I have been reading and rereading your post. A horrible thought just came over me. Basically in my marriage to gemela, for me it was always about making her happy. What just occurred to me is that now it should be about me making ME happy and she is on her own as to whether she finds happiness or not because only she can decide that. I don't know why your post hit me like that but it did. Basically it makes me think I have to reinvent my concept of marriage. I know the marriage can never be what it was but it seems like the chances of finding happiness after an A are fairly dismal.

Oh, and I suddenly think I need an Oreo.

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T, sorry I didn't answer. I went to Church.

I think you are beginning to understand. YOU can't make her happy, only SHE can make herself happy. only YOU can make yourself happy. To love is to be happy with.

If you love her YOU will be happy.

I also believed like you that I had to MAKE WS happy, but that is impossible, it's wrong to think that. Sacrifice in marriage is wrong. Read Dr. Harley.

When YOU are strengthened, you can begin to analyze what marriage means and what kind of relationship you want. In the meantime you still have to work on YOU.


cc

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BTW, which post did you read?


cc

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From my own limited observation I think a great many marriages survive affairs. When people found out about my A I was amazed how many of them had been touched by infidelity but were still together. How happy they are and how "recovered" they are is another question.

The whole point of MB is not just to get through an A but to have a better marriage.

Traic, it is tricky. When I look back my H was strong but sometimes indifferent to whether we made it or not. He told me he would just go back to England and I'd never see him again. The next day he would say he couldn't bear to do that. It's the nature of the beast.

I think gemela is going to be a very tough nut to crack (from what you've said about her reaction to the neighbours and other things you've said) but she has had the advantage of at least talking to some of the people here. Some of it may reach into her brain.

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traicionado:
te espero en mexico para tomar una tequila contigo. como dijo vicente f. "por mujeres tan divenas no hay nada mas que adoralas. or something like that.

i feel your pain, you are not alone.


merrily, merrily, merrily, life is.....
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cc46,

It occurred to me that you just made me swallow the blue pill.

thanks,
neo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

KiwiJ,

I admit I am sometimes indifferent on the inside but I never let gemela see that. I think I hide it well. Previously I think the indifference was a result of exhaustion and impatience. This is a lot of work and I want results. Now I think the indifference is a result of the belief that I am going to be perfectly fine regardless of the outcome. If gemela stays - great. If gemela goes - I'll get over it. Whatever happens, I will have a life I will enjoy. I confess I still have issues with the A. I think it was hugely selfish on her part and it disappoints me that she thought so little of her DDs. I am living a celebate life with a woman who doesn't love me. I mean - I could probably do better than that right? Am I happy with the way things are? No. I hope they get better. Well, one way or another, they will.

MB does two things: 1) Plan A gives me time to improve myself, give the marriage an opportunity and give me the chance to be happy no matter the outcome and 2) if the marriage does recover, it has a much better chance of being a happy one than if no plan were utilized. This last six months in Plan A (with constant correction by MB posters) has just been fantastic. It has been painful but well worth it. If gemela does split, I know I will have done everything I could.

I still know it would be easier to cut my loses and move on and staying together will be a whole lot more work. I still love her. I know I don't want my DDs hurt.

I think gemela may be a tough nut but I think part of that is her Latina blood.

saenz,

Creo que lo que me hace falta es una hamaca en la playa con un dia muy nublado con lluvia. En otras palabras - un dia muy tequilero. Ya no tomo mucho pero no puedo resistir un Don Julio reposado - mi favorito. Vincente Fox has his moments. We are just trying to work out the details of our repat vacation now. Plan currently is to take DDs to Disney World, possibly take the Disney World cruise, go to Cancun for a week where I WILL have some Don Julio, head to DF because gemela wants to go to the bazaar de San Angel on a Saturday and then we have a week of indecision before coming back. Plans could always be altered by the INS. Since we are flying into Miami, I am expecting problems over gemela's green card. Personally I hope they cancel it. It has been nothing but an expensive pain since before we got it.



Thanks everyone for your kind words and encouragement. I know I could not do this alone.

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T,

no entiendo


cc

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I was referring to the movie "The Matrix" where Neo is given the opportunity to swallow the red pill and go back to believing his fantasy or the blue pill where he would learn just what reality really was. Your post, for some unexplainable reason, is forcing me to completely reevaluate my concept of marriage. I don't mean that in a bad way. I posted way early on about my experience in the "platica" where the guy said I was marrying gemela because I loved her and wanted to make her happy. I dedicated 8 years of my life to that for naught. Now I realize that I never could make her happy - only she can do that. I have to make me happy. I need to do a lot of internal rewiring - the blue pill.

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Thanks for the explanation. I learned after 20 years, so you are way ahead of me!


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Another way to look at it is that I failed way before you did. But I guess that makes your glass half full and my glass half empty...

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T, there was a whole thread once dedicated to the blue and the red pill. Funny you should bring it up again.

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I once did a whole presentation on centrifugal pump operating principles with the option for fixed speed operation (red pill) or factoring in the affinity laws (blue pill). If you swallowed the blue pill, the mouse became a white rabbit. Loved that movie. If you look at my threads and especially what I wrote into adrianc's thread, I can go no more than about 3.2 posts without some movie reference. I think I do that because it helps establish a common frame of reference. Either that or I simply watch way too many movies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

cc46 just made me think of the pill. I asked a simple question yesterday not really expecting to give it much thought and it turned out to be a life-changing event. I am deadly serious about this. What cc46 posted has been a wake-up call for me. I have been doing this all wrong.

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Glad I could help. It may seem hard to be happy, but it's actually an attitude that you decide to adopt and eventually you get good at being happy. It's your decision.

I did it for years when I was younger and somewhere along the road I forgot... Now I'm trying to get in the mood again, and most of the time I can. From now on I have made the decision to be happy again!

By the way, you can be happy sad too! or sad while happy if you understand what I mean.

Last edited by cc46; 04/16/06 06:05 AM.

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Yesterday I called WW at noon (the only time I ever call the house) and asked how things were going and what we were doing in the evening. She told me we were playing golf at 6:20. This was a little surprising because of DD's and the fact that we already had plans to play golf tonight. She is really trying to get her game in shape so she can play with the other ladies. I think she wants to impress them. No, I know she wants to impress them. Anyway I accepted it. I got home and found DD2 was at a friend's house on the other side of camp so we tae and I rushed over to get DD2 but WW made me deliver Easter baskets during the trip so time was limited. When I got back I was told that I had to repair a neighbor's bike because the training wheel had broken. Turned out not to be a simple fix and I had to hunt for spare parts. Anyway I just had time to get changed and get going but DD1 refused to let us go without her. She put up a tantrum. I told her that we spend almost every waking hour doing what she wants but there are times when Mommy and Daddy need to do things without her being there. I was getting no where and I had never been that enthusiastic about golfing that night anyway so I told her to go with Mommy and I would stay home with DD2. DD2 was excited about this and ran to pick out a DVD. Long story short WW went to play with DD1 and had a terrible time. I stayed home with DD2 and had a great time. When WW got home, we talked about it a little and everything seems okay. I am not sure where the mistake was made but it did not cause a problem between WW and me.

Today started okay but on the way to work I asked WW if she had had any contact with OM to which she said no (a believable no). Then I asked if she had talked to any mutual acquaintances and she said no (an unbelievable no) but later added that she had run into the woman who had given her the cell phone and they chatted. As she was reciting this to me, I got the impression they chatted for a fairly long time. Anyway, it is obvious that this woman is wanting very much to get herself involved with WW's life. WW says she does not have our phone number and they only meet randomly (super market, laundry, etc.). Even so, I can't say why but I am just really PO'ed right now. I don't know why this bothers me so much but it does. They are not friends in any way. All they have is the Latina connection and even at that, this woman is not part of the normal Latina group. I don't think she has that many friends but she is very meddlesome. When WW had her LEEP surgery, this woman practically broke down my door trying to show WW how she needed to bath herself. This was all right after Dday when OM was still here and I was recording phone calls. I heard this woman talking to WW and I immediately knew she was trouble waiting to happen. When I met this woman at the door the day she came over, we got into a shouting match and she left. Since then she has done everything she can to push WW to abandon the M. Again, I don't THINK she sees WW that much and I don't think WW pays that much attention to her. Even so, it has started my day off really badly. So I wanted to vent here. Thanks.

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So, T, I don't if I've missed something. Is this woman an enabler or something?

I don't quite understand why you don't want her involved with gemela.

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I would call her an enabler. She is the one who gave WW the OM's cell phone when he had left here so that WW and OM could talk. OM also told this woman all about the A so, if she knew all about it and still delivered the phone, she was certainly not trying to prevent the A from continuing. She fits my definition of enabler anyway. She also talks badly about me to WW even though we have only ever met once (shouting match at door). I can see how I didn't make a great first impression but not exactly motive for her to try to convince WW to leave me.

The woman likes to get involved in people's lives. She told WW yesterday that some of the Arabic women had been asking who gemela was. That, by itself, is troubling. The woman offered to be gemela's "master" in utilizing her beauty to its fullest. Sounded almost like she wanted to become my WW's pimp. It just sounded really weird. Even WW couldn't understand what the woman was trying to get at. WW did not get what the woman meant by "master". Anyway, she did decline the offer.

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