Yeah, but love as a noun means "feelings".

From Webster's online thesaurus:

Entry Word: love
Function: noun

Text: 1 a feeling of strong or constant regard for and dedication to someone <her love for her children was truly selfless>

Synonyms affection, attachment, devotedness, devotion, fondness, passion

Related Words appetite, favor, like, liking, partiality, preference, taste; craving, crush, desire, infatuation, longing, lust, yearning; ardor, eagerness, enthusiasm, fervor, zeal; esteem, regard, respect; adoration, idolatry, worship; allegiance, fealty, fidelity, loyalty

[Ouch! - fidelity.... BTW, isn't it amazing how much idolatry and adultery sound a lot alike?]

Near Antonyms allergy, animosity, antipathy, aversion, disfavor, dislike; abhorrence, disgust, repugnance, repulsion, revulsion; misanthropy
Antonyms abomination, hate, hatred, loathing, rancor

2 a person with whom one is in love <she is the love of my life> -- see SWEETHEART

3 positive regard for something <a love of chocolate that I will pay anything to indulge> -- see LIKING

From Webster's Online dictionary:

Main Entry: 1love
Pronunciation: 'l&v
Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lufu; akin to Old High German luba love, Old English lEof dear, Latin lubEre, libEre to please

1 a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates> b : an assurance of love <give her my love>

2 : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion <love of the sea>

3 a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration <baseball was his first love> b (1) : a beloved person : DARLING -- often used as a term of endearment (2) British -- used as an informal term of address

4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others b : a person's adoration of God

5 : a god or personification of love

6 : an amorous episode : LOVE AFFAIR

7 : the sexual embrace : COPULATION

8 : a score of zero (as in tennis)

9 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD
- at love : holding one's opponent scoreless in tennis
- in love : inspired by affection



In my case, I think "love" is best described by the tennis thing. My love has turned into a big zero.

hey Traic,

seems that you have reached the same point i have reached, we just dont want the kind of life that we have right now. We want more, something better for ourselves, because we deserve to have A LIFE. And what we are living is an existance not a life. I am bowing out... there is nothing i can do, and i want more, i want the things that i need, i am a person that is worth more than what i am getting right now. Yes, i guess my taker is taking over again, but i am also willing to give the exact same that i am expecting, so i dont think this is so much a selfish act as it may sound.

There is nothing you can do to change gemela... only she can change herself... and it is your choice to live with the gemela she is right now or not. Just be true and honest to yourself, this process has taken place over the past few weeks within myself as well.. my husband has no clue about it and it doesnt really matter either. I am not talking to him about it anymore, i am tired of talking, getting the same unsure answers and no actions. I am tired of placing my own life on hold, i only have this one, and its time i take it into my own hands.

Maybe this will be a wake-up call for gemela, but honestly i dont think she is getting any of what you are telling her. She figures as long as you are still there, everything is ok. She doesnt realize you are only physically there, but mentally and emotionally you are in different places. She will not see that, she will not get it, until she is faced with the facts and actions. At least this is how i feel. I have been in this stagnant (hope i spelled it right) place for far too long, all i heard was empty words. I cannot live my life like this, either he will change.. and i mean drastically change at this point... or i will have a life without him.

It kind of sounds like you have come to the same place i am at... its not scary anymore... its more of a peace that has come over me. I dont need him, and i dont want anyone that keeps me around for "just in case" or whatever reasons, i deserve more.

Well I went home for lunch. WW was not expecting me. She took DDs back to school and then she came home. I wanted to talk about D. We sort of did. WW wants to continue trying and not get the D. She really seems to want to avoid the D. I had the cc talk but it was not entirely calm and without emotion. Even so, major points were covered. I gave my conditions for continuation of this pain: IC, MC, discussion of A (under guidelines of MC), possible phone counseling with Harleys and that some day she would have to tell me she was sorry for all this. I told her I needed to heal and she had been refusing to help me. I said she has been so focused on herself that she doesn't ever consider my feelings or the pain she has caused me. I told her I feel like my feelings are unimportant to her and that I don't think that is fair.

I told her I wanted her to take me to the place. I don't know why that is important but it is. She did. She couldn't even walk up to the door. She kept her distance. At least now whenever we drive past it, I believe she won't be thinking only about her long lost love. I believe she will be thinking that I know about it and she will be wondering what I am thinking. I think I have stolen some of the magic. Maybe not. Now she has several things to think about.

I asked if she had any conditions. She said she had none but thanked me for the offer. We'll see how it goes. We are both pretty beat up right now. I hope it moves us one way or the other - closer to R or closer to D but any kind of movement would be nice.

What can I say? I don't know much about clamps....


T, seems to me that you have taken some important steps. And I hope and pray they will work out the way you want them to.

I would have liked you to re read SAA though. You see, one important fact that both you and Daggi and even Todd have not mentioned is that Dr. Harley actually describes the situstion you and they and I are going through which is losing our love for the WS. When that happens the marriage becomes almost impossible. And because Dr. Harley KNOWS that will happen when the BS is in contact and interacting with the WS for a long time, he recommends plan B.

Plan B is the last effort by the BS to try to recover the marriage, and he/she has NOTHING TO LOSE and everything to gain by doing plan B. It is loving your S, by ignoring the WS and becoming a better person. It is all about the BS, but at the same time, it is an act of love for the S (not the WS). It is hard. You do seem to be stuck in the niddle of nowhere for a while. But when there is closure (either divorce or recovery) you are in much better conditions than any other alternatives I can think of.

You could do plan B, but you have just made it "not an option". At least for the moment. let's hope that what happens next is not more of the same.


I don't think you are really convinced that you cannot control Gemela. In my very humble opinion, you are still controlling her, "fixing" her life as you see best, with the best intentions of course.

That is something you need to work on. Because it's true. You cannot control somebody else.

I am not sure what you mean by controlling. I just want her to do something. If she wants to leave, that is really fine with me. I am just tired of this never-ending Plan A with no remorse. I don't mind the Plan A. That is good for me. I mind that she is not the least bit sorry for the A, has no consideration for how it has hurt me or otherwise simply doesn't care and that she seems to be doing nothing to try to help the situation (e.g. IC).

I just told her I love her but am not in love with her. That is how I feel. I am losing my desire to want to try to save this marriage. I told her that the French riding instructor was my trigger. I asked her if she could not see how that could affect me based on her history. Apparently she did it with the "best of intentions".

Stop talking about what SHE SHOULD DO!

You have to think in terms of what YOU NEED!

BUT

BUT

you shouldn't have forced her to go to the place where she met OM. Although secretly, i must add, that that may shake her up enough to make her get out of the fog. Forcing her to go was controlling.

Telling her that if she really wanted to recover the marriage you needed that, would be plan A.
You used the famous wayward sentence: I love you but I'm not in love with you. I can't believe it!

How firm are those conditions? For example, let's say you have MC scheduled and she checks out. What then? Let's say she is uncooperative in MC and does not discuss the affair? I am talking about consequences of course.

This sounds like the stage at which her blueprint of herself may collide with reality. We have discussed the possible ramifications before. It oould get ugly seeing your WW go through that. It is a necessary step, IMHO.

of course you can't be in love with her!

But that's not important at this moment. Dr. Harley has said that he can make any two people fall in love if they follow his instructions and I believe him. I believe that is possible.

But you would not be able to be in a marriage unless you understand what a marriage is, you understand what commitment is and you CHOOSE to be committed and married and on top of that love each other. You can also choose to be IN LOVE with each other, and that takes a lot of work, imagination and creativity, but it can be done if you CHOOSE to. It will not just "happen".

She hasnt faced herself and her problems yet, she is still in the same frame of mind that made her have the A. I have no clue what brings a person to face themselves, i guess thats something they all have to do on their own. You dont have any control over that. You cant make her feel remorseful, only she can do that, when she takes off the mask she has been hiding behind, hiding from herself and others.

She isnt facing herself, her problems or you. Until she does that, she will not feel any remorse or any REAL inclination to save the marriage, as in making a REAL effort instead of "just" going to Counseling because you ask it of her. Then she will want to go their on her own. You wont have to tell her that she needs to talk to you about the A, but she will tell you anything you want to know, maybe even more than that, because she will TRULY mean it. She is not in that mindframe yet, no clue what might bring her out of it.

She hasnt lost anything yet, so she doesnt appreciate what she has. You have always been here for her, trying to make things work. I dont think she will come out of it on her own, maybe Plan B would hit her in the face with reality. At this point what do you have to loose? Just my humble opinion.

cc,

For traicionado to do a Plan B, where would WW go? Not to the UK. Back to Mexico? Plan B does not seem feasible in traicionado's case.

cc46 danced all around it but didn't come out and say it. I have nothing to lose. Plan B is not a viable option as has been discussed for some time. Gemela may want to continue to stay in this fog stupor but I need a life.

I don't know what will happen in IC, MC, but it doesn't matter. I will deal with whatever comes.

I need to stop this bleeding. I have been so trying to make things right for gemela that I have been denying myself. Now I need to think about me just a little. I am not happy living with a woman who is in love with someone else. I think I can do much better than that. Even living by myself would be better than that.

BTW I did tell gemela it was important for my personal healing to know where they had their trysts and that I wanted her to show me. She did agree. Once there, however, she refused to get out of the car and yes I did insist that she go. She could not properly identify which door it was from the car. I did not want to get "close". I wanted to see the door. She needed to get out to find it for me. I did not make her get any closer than she had to.

Daggi,

I understand that nothing I can do will make her feel remorseful. That is not the point. The purpose of Plan A is to give us time until WW comes out of the fog. The problem with Plan A is that it cannot be indefinite or I will lose all desire. That is what is beginning to happen. I agree - WW has not "lost" anythong except the OM and he is still not very far away - he is in her heart. So she hasn't lost much at all.

cc,

It sure does not sound like WW is in love with traicionado. I could be wrong as I only have traicionado's side of the story. I don't read gemela's thread so maybe she professes her undying love for traicionado. Besides isn't trying to get gemela to fall in love with him an attempt to control her?

ToddAC,

You are missing cc46's point. It is MY choice to decide if I want to be in love with gemela or not.

Oh yes you do.

You have a lot to lose. Or are marriages a dime a dozen. Can you just toss this one away and think that you'll soon find another woman and have a great marriage? And what about your dds? are they replaceable too?

And what about YOU? are you convinced that you ahve done everything possible to save your marriage?

Sorry. I thought when we married we did it for life, at least that's what I did.

So how many "lives" to we have to manage?

BTW, I thought plan B was not possible for you because of where and how you live.
But I never said it was impossible. I thought you would come up with a practical solution and be able to plan B if you want. Actually I'm sure you could arrange to plan B in your circumstances if you wanted to.

Why don't you think about it. But read up on plan B before you do.

If you cant do a Plan B, but you are not willing to live like this anymore, what are you going to do then?

You said:

"I need to stop this bleeding. I have been so trying to make things right for gemela that I have been denying myself. Now I need to think about me just a little. I am not happy living with a woman who is in love with someone else. I think I can do much better than that. Even living by myself would be better than that."

She isnt there yet, where she could turn it all around for you to be happy with the situation. I am just afraid she will do the things that you ask of her, but inside of her nothing will change and the situation will stay how it is...

I dont know what you could do instead of a Plan B that might jolt her out of it. Maybe show her what it is like to be with a spouse that doesnt love you? It might seem cruel.. but if she shows you affection... refuse her? Make her see what it is like to live with someone like her? I dont know... I probably make no sense at all..

Okay I am somewhat stuck here. How can something be "not possible" while it "isn't impossible". Or is this similar to the "highly improbable" from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

My Plan B is gemela goes to Mexico and fends for herself. She would likely live with SIL and MIL, get a job and decide what she wants with her life. She gets no support from me. DDs stay here in school and visit her during the summer break. It is a little more complicated than that but that is the Cliff's Notes version.

Daggi,

With all due respect, that is just cruel. I can't even consider doing that. I don't hate gemela.

Todd, I meant what T understood. Butit's a moot point in this situation. That is NOT a thing you think about in the middle of an infidelity situation. Those are the things that should be considered when you consider marriage or when you are married but not in the middle of a crisis.

Those are facts about relationships. At least Dr. Harley and I believe them.

daggi, I respect you opinion. I'm just curious, have you read SAA?

TRAICIONADO-- Gemela has been trying to make this marriage work, even if you and others think otherwise. By not talking about the Affair with you, she might had been trying to sweep it under the rug, because she was scared and ashamed of what she did. I dont think she is in a fog at all. She might still have some feelings for OM, but she wants the marriage to work with all her heart. You were not very verbal with her before and she probably thought everything was going well. She knows that the relationship with OM was a game that only existed in her mind. When Stanley used to post to her she understood how little she had with OM. It takes a while for her to completely be exorcised of the feelings for OM.

She seems to be doing activities with you and the girls in a regular basis. She is not all depressed and crying herself to sleep thinking about OM and what she had. She wants the marriage, she wants to stay with you and your daughters as a family. She "thought" she was in recovery and she was, slow recovery but a sure one.