what if Gemela says she won't go back to Mexico because she doesn't want to leave her dds? Can she stay there? Can you live apart and avoid seeing each other in order to do a plan B?

So, is plan B your decision?

Myrta,

Hey!

ToddAC,

Not yet - I am not the one who brought this up.

cc46,

I had never thought of that because I know it is illegal but it still might be possible. It would be very very tricky and very risky.

Myrta,

Since gemela will not discuss anything with me, I have not idea what she is thinking. She did tell me she sees no benefit to IC, sees no value in MB and only derives benefit from playing golf with the ladies. Without communication, we are blind and gemela has made it very clear that she will not discuss our marriage OR the affair. That leaves us with the weather, what's for lunch, etc.

Myrta,

I disagree with you. I don't think Gemela has ever stopped the EA. Her last post was on the 3rd april and if I were you I would re read it.

I never believed Gemela was out of the EA, and therefore she is still a very active WW, with no signs of becoming a former WW. That's just my opinion

One of the difficulties is that she is in denial, the EA can go on without hr having to face much reality (she has no idea what the OM is doing because he probably has another MW by now) and she has no freedom to make bad choices or even good ones because she's stuck in SA, except maybe have another affair with the riding instructor, or the english teacher etc.

I never perceived Gemela as even starting to admit that she may have done something wrong. Sorry. That's just my perception.

Traicionado....It might only conversations about the weather, but this is the prelude of deeper conversations. She is very tentative with you. She feels very unsure,scared to show too much. But I still think she wants very much to stay married to you....and she is in NC with OM. She is playing golf, doing fun things to occupy her mind and time. She will eventually be very expressive with you. The thing is, "will you be there for her?"

CC- Because Gemela "thinks" about OM and affair, does not mean she is in EA. Its hard to completely "cut" all the fantasy and crap thats in your mind after an affair.

IN denial.....I dont think so. She knows very well what she did and she is facing even if in her own mind ,the consequences of that. She is scared , by not talking about it, she thinks it will go away. She needs to trust Traicinados intentions, and she does not yet!

I have always been here for gemela. I don't think she would tell you otherwise. I just feel like we are stuck and trying to pretend this will all go away on its own. I think that will just lead to another affair in the future. I don't know how much longer I can stay in an indefinite Plan A.

On the other hand, you believe we are (were) in R. I haven't sensed that. Maybe I am too sensitive. Gemela did tell me last night she wants to take a break and get away from us for a while. Is that normal?

Traicionado.....She might feel overwhelmed and maybe thats why she wants a break. But if a marriage wants to truly recover with "each other""together" you must remain in the same house. How can you recover if you are not seeing each other? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Even if you fight,get sad,scream whatever, you tough it up. My husband and I had been thru crazy rollercoasters, just last week we had a mini one. These are normal feelings , they will lessen with time. Things will eventually get better. They will.....

If my DD1 came to me crying and scared and told me there was a purple monster in the house coming to get her, I would not try to calm her down and tell her it was her imagination. I would lock DD1 up, get my shotgun and search the house top to bottm for the purple monster. If I did not find one, I would talk to DD1 and calm her down and tell her it was her imagination.

Now, what does that have to do with anything? I get your message - even if I may not believe it, I don't KNOW it isn't true.


Oh, and after I got her calmed down and got her to sleep, I would sit at the foot of her bed all night with my shotgun standing guard.

T, as I have said many times I DON'T HAVE NOR WANT TO HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THIS SUBJECT!


So I don't know from experience. Thank God. But individual experiences are never good advice. It's much better to look a a "big" collection of experiences and see what the "normal" behaviour of the event should look like. In this case this would translate into maybe something like in 60% of the cases in which a WS says they want a break it is to continue the A, in 15% it is because they really want to consider the M and in 15% it is because they want to run away, forget everything and start a new life. (obviously this is invented, I have no idea what the reality would be).

Actually, I can only tell you what I have read, in SAA many times and other books.

When a WS says they want to be alone or take a break, it is usually to continue the A. I believe that to be true in Gemela's situation. As I have said before, I believe she is still in an EA, a one sided one, but still an EA. She is in denial about her role in this.

Sorry Myrta, I can't agree with you.

What about the other 10%

they would be divided among some 30 or 40 or 150 different behaviours: they are original.



You think you are one of those? or Gemela is? Don't flatter yourself. Most of us conform to the norm

CC46---So you are telling Traicionado....that Gemela is in contact with OM and she wants to run away into the sunset with him??

I disagree with you . She wants to take a break(perhaps)because she is tired of accusing eyes and accusing body language from Traicionado's)Even if he is not doing that, thats her perception, because she feels guilty for what she did. She feels unworthy,and rightfully so. Its truly gross and disgusting to have an affair. I am sure the tension in their house can be cut with a knife. Its overwhelming !!! She is young and she wants to run away. She does not know if she can handle all that. Traicionado needs to assure her and reasure her that they can do it, that they can get thru this horrible crisis in their marriage.

No Myrta, I am not telling T that G is in contact with OM.

I actually believe she is NOT in contact with OM. I think she may have realized how disgusting having an affair is so she would prefer an EA, a one sided one, where she doesn't have to feel "guilty" because, in her perception, tehre is nothing wrong. At teh same time, she is not willing to admit that she did anything "really" wrong. It wasn't "really" her fault because there were so many things wrong with T so it's also his fault.

Myrta re read her LAST post.

I thought to have an EA you need it two people. HOw can she have an affair with just her thoughts? That will make her completely void of reality. I am sure her OM is already in his next "victim" He is a young, swimming instructor , has a lot of contact with unexperienced young mothers. If Gemela was to have an EA within her mind, she will soon be in touch with reality,( unless she goes completely insane, and see that there was nothing,zero, in her affair with that man.

Even the cruelest of WWs here, will have some idea of the magnitude of their actions. Even if they appear to be so carefree and carrying still an affair. Even if there were so many things wrong with T, in Gemela's oppinion. NOthing that he has done to her in the past or present, compares with what she did to him, by having an affair. That erases completely all his faults and flaws. And believe me she knows this!

THis is what JL has said about what a good FWW can do to improve the marriage post A.

Traic,

I do not see you being controlling at asking G to take you where she used to tryst. She had choice. She chose to take you. To be there.

This is what I see as controlling: "but I have been trying to create a place where she felt safe."

When I asked about you, for you, we wrestled over it. Then you demonstrated it. I was asking for you to consider how destructive absolutes are...being happy for you through G's happiness. Then you swung to the other absolute...work on the M, because I need to care more about me than your happiness. Maybe this is your route to get to the inbetween. To find you and her in the equation of your life...not all about her or all about you...that respectful place where you are, and she is, and each have their own...one not dependent on the others' actions until you have two complete wholes.

O&H...all that you said to her was your truth...pouring out from being withheld...this is why self-betrayal is as important as betrayal...what we do to ourselves.

You just journeyed on the wayward route...if you aren't doing what I want, I won't tell you, but I'll divorce you...I'll resent, build up, lie by omission and point fingers. As you hate that she substantiated her A through your actions, so are you doing this now...walking in each other shoes...

I believe you desire more than anything to truly connect with G...and she with you...and this fearful, pain-filled time is what breaks open to get open. Without that, there might not be a connection...no way in, only out.

You judge yourself weak, strong, success, failure, brave, sincere, simply pleasured...I don't see the acceptance you are a complex human being whose presence is signifcant, essential, without a word spoken or an action taken.

Intimacy has no judgment (false protection), total respect; vulnerable and open, by choice. Intimacy is the hand we hold while we look at life; not to hold us up or pull us down...it is the hand we hold to widen our experience in knowing, and being known.

Plan A isn't about sucking down pain...it is about owning it as yours; it is a commitment to communicate, share though you fear, be vulnerable though it is the last thing you want to do; and speak your truth to yourself and to your WS. It is being brave, sincere, weak, strong, and contains a lot of simple treasures...your choice.

LA

It strikes me that reality is sinking in to Gemela. As it does, she is having difficulty squaring her conservative upbringing to what she did. Her A and OM are wrapped in one big fantasy ball of goo and it appears to unraveling. If my calculations are correct, it has been eight months since DDay. Traicionado has been pounded in this thread for what he has done wrong. It seems to me that it is time to shine a light on gemela and see if she is going to start recovery.

Everything she has done, from arranging tee times without sharing it with traicionado to keeping in contact with OM as long as she did, is about her. She cannot spend fifteen hours of quality time with traicionado when she keeps putting herself first. She is not the only one that needs to heal. I think it is time to move gemela off TDC. It will not be easy and the aftermath could be ugly as gemela crashes down from her fantasy.

It has been said many times, and it fits within the context of common sense. that the best chance for recovery exists when the WW faces what she did, takes ownership and moves forward with R. I don't see any evidence that gemela has arrived at that point. Not being able to go up to the door that she used to walk through to see OM is not a good sign that she is facing reality.

Sorry Traicionado for having that these things, i just felt like something had to happen for her to realize that it cant go on like this. And since you couldnt do a Plan B due to the circumstances, i came up with this silly thought. I want to apologize to you for having said that, i know you dont hate gemela.

CC64, no i havent read SAA, as i have no way of getting this book over here. My mom did ask me what i wanted for easter though, and i told her i would like this book, so she might send it to me along with some things for the kids for easter. Since all mail goes through Husbands work address and i dont want him to know that i wanted that book, the package for easter was the perfect opportunity for me to finally get it.

Traicionado... it is hard to figure out whats going on in someone's mind if they dont talk about anything, and it can be very frustrating when nothing is happening in a long time. I wont tell you what you should do, as only you know what you want. I hope she will "wake up" soon, i do see the situation similar as CC64 does. She is still in her WW thinking and OM is still in her heart. This is very very hard, and very painful. I wish i had the solution to your problem, i dont know what could get her out of her fantasy.

Daggi,

Don't worry. I understand where you are coming from and I do appreciate the input. You said yourself it would be cruel and it would be. Gemela will do what she will do in her own time.

Myrta,

David Lanz/Paul Speer "Behind the Waterfall"

Stanley,

That is EXACTLY right. Gemela has said she is sorry a few times but nothing more and I never know what she is sorry about. She said she was sorry last night that she had upset me about the French riding instructor. What I was angry about was her insensitivity to my feelings and her disrespect for me and the A's effect on my by even thinking such a thing would appear harmless to me. That is what made me angry and that is not what she was sorry about. When she has said she is sorry in the past, I have told her that she is not sorry about the affair - she is only sorry she got caught. She never answers. She never explains what she is sorry about.

cc46 and Myrta both said interesting things yesterday. It is going to take me a while to absorb it. Right now what I am concentrating on is finding a middle ground of response. In other words, what would I do in either case and look for the things that appear in both and apply them as a remedial measure. I think I need time.

I did tell gemela last night that there will not be any planned "break". We face this together and win or lose but we stick it out to the end. Okay so I am controlling her not leaving. Don't get me wrong - she can leave any time she wants - she just won't be able to come back if she makes that decision unilaterally.

We didn't speak much yesterday. I had to go out in the evening and, when I got back, she was asleep. It was nice to have a cooling off. Today I think the situation is a lot more calm. Whether we go back to status quo or not, only time will tell.

Now I am going to read LA's post. I tried last night but it seemed complicated so I left it till this morning. I needed a clear head.