Hi all. I posted the following in the emotional needs forum a few days ago, but felt the need today to re-post here. I have some new questions that I would like to hear if anyone has any advice/experience with. Thank you in advance for your time.

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I have been reading the message board now for a few weeks along with going through all of the material on the MB site in search of answers but not ready to post the situation. Well, now I am ready for some advice/support and a stern slap in the face if that is what comes (at this point I feel I deserve it.) I love my wife dearly and I would never do anything to hurt her intentionally. I apologize for the long post.

Have been married for 12 years, husband of one beautiful woman and father of three wonderful children. In this last year I have felt that my wife had started to pull away from me and the rest of her family. She started working more and doing anything she could to get out of the house (at least the was what it felt like). She would not talk about it and kept insisting that nothing was wrong/different.

I came to head in June of last year and we had a very bad argument. I do not “argue” well and have trouble controlling my emotions (going through counseling now). I felt I couldn’t take the arguing anymore I walked out (issue #1). I made it all of the way to the driveway and knew that I had messed up but couldn’t go back at this time because I knew the argument would continue and I wasn’t in any shape to handle it. So, I called her father to meet me, talk me down and to come back to the house with me to mediate. I felt that we had come a long way through the talks (although she was not completely honest with either of us at the time). This is where the big problem starts. When we went to bed, we made love (that’s my story). Her take on that night was that she was raped (issue #2). She just started counseling 2 weeks ago and she just confronted me last night of her feelings on that day. She is working with her counselor on #1 the fact that I walked out, and #2 how that night ended.

Between last June and today there have been a lot of things going on that I didn’t understand until last night. She has had an EA, which she says she is over but still has contact with, and the distance has grown. My reaction to everything was to hold her tight. I wanted to show her how much I loved her and how much she meant to me and that I wanted to “start over”. Without ever knowing what that day in June meant to her, my actions drove her further away.

I do not want this marriage to end. She is the love of my life and I can’t imagine a day going by without her in it. It kills me to know that I hurt her in any way. She doesn’t want any contact with me at this point (hurts deeply but I deserve it). I am so afraid that I messed up the love a lifetime and I don’t know what to do from here.

I don’t know if there is really any advice that can be given, I just felt I needed to share. I feel so ashamed.

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After getting some feedback in the emotional needs forum I have some more questions. We are fighting a battle with her need for space and my need to feel that I am providing her the emotional/physical support that she needs. I am feeling today that the EA means more to me than I realized, that I am trying to "compete"... a need to show her that I am the one that needs to fill this void she is feeling.

I am looking for anyone that has had a similar situation, can relate, or just some words of encouragement.

Here is the link to the original post for any questions regarding the EA.

I Messed Up!

Thank you for taking your time to read this extremely long post.

She is still in contact with this man that she had an EA affair with?

How much do you know about their EA?

When did it start?

How much contact do they have now?

How certain are you that it was not a PA?

Mr. Wondering

Mrs. Wondering and I discussed this and wanted to follow up with an additional post.

Issue #2 and her perception that she was raped is probable a direct result of her entanglement with OM and the EA she has with him. It is history revision. It is her straw that broke the camel's back so to speak which enabled her to justify and rationalize her affair. That's not to say to her, her perception is not real...she may actually feel that way...but it is probably a fogged out notion that her husband raped her.

Can you describe the incident with a little more detail?

Were you actually forceful or just manipulative and/or demanding? Was it consentual (and she was saying no in her mind), etc.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - your counselor is wrong if he/she thinks you should just sit back and allow wife to keep her "friend". Friends can become lovers, but, lovers can NEVER become friends.

Mr. Wondering,

Thank you for the response.

Most of what I know about the EA is in a response in the original post... I know that the EA started while on FEMA deployment to Louisiana for the Hurricane in early Septmeber (she is a nurse/medic, OM is an EMT). I know there was constant talking/texting since the return for about 1-2 months until I discovered. I know that the OM is on his second marriage and is having an affair with someone else they both work with. I know that they kissed because she told me. As far as the current contact it is when they see each other at work, they don't work with each other but for the same company. There is also text messaging (not as frequent as Sept-Oct, but still there, along with the occassional cell call.

As far as being certain that it was not a PA, in my mind I believe her at this point because she at least told me that they kissed.

Mr Wondering,

Thanks again, and I will do my best to describe what I remember.

After the argument had cooled down and we had worked things out the best that we could that night, we told each other how much we loved each other, cried and held on tight. When we moved up to the bedroom I didn't want to let go of her and we started kissing. I told her at that time that although the timing may not perfect I really felt like making love. (At this time I really felt the need to conect at tat level, it was not a hormones running wild thing). She said at first she didn't feel right about it, but after some more kissing was getting into it herself. When we started, I thought I seen her start to cry, I immediately stopped and felt horrible about the incident. We talked at that moment and I told her that her emotions made me feel bad and that I felt like it was a rape. She told me not to think like that, she just wasn;t ready.

Now during counseling the memories are coming back as a rape. I would never do anything to hurt her (intentionally). Since I said it first, I can see if she feels that way.

You did what you were suppose to do. In married life there are times when both spouse are not "in the mood" at the same time but with a little seduction things turn around. You were sensitive to her feelings. Be careful she may be using your feelings to manipulate you and justify her behavior. Have you been intimate since that time in June?

OM is not her friend. Friends don't kiss. Don't minimize it!There is a bond and an attraction for a kiss to happen. It sounds as if he may be stringing her along or setting her up for further contact in the future. He sounds like a "player".

Have you thought about calling the Harleys? It sounds like your current counselor might not be right for this situation.

That night you actually said it "felt like I was raping you" and she's now using your words to manipulate you in front of the "divorce" counselor you guys are going to. She wants your divorce to be about YOU and not her behavior. She's found a soft spot on you and is pushing it to make you feel guilty and responsible as she continues her Emotional Affair with OM.

Why doesn't she also claim it wasn't consentual back in 1998 when you got her drunk on the cruise ship and had your way with her. She was in no condition to give consent so it must be rape.

I am not diminishing any charges of rape. In this world all discussions on this subject are very charged, however, it is my opinion that your wife is very cruelly abusing you with this line of discussion and that you should not accept it. Now, in Plan A...you can listen to it and just politely say "I disagree" and move on. However, based upon what you say above, you do not have to take any of the blame for the current state of your marriage based upon THAT incident. It is not a pertinent issue and any counselor you go to must be redirected back to the primary issue...OM. Until OM is out of the picture, no marriage counselor or marriage board is going to save your marriage.

We will try to help you get rid of OM, then Marriage Build.

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - Kissing OM makes it a Physical Affair and never trust a wayward spouse...they always lie and diminish the extent of their unfaithfulness (99% of the time).

Thank you confused.

Yes we have been intimate since then. There is a lot to fill in these series of events. July seemed good, August a little worse (distance), things blew up end Sept. Nothing Oct-Nov. We started MC end of Oct.m I sought out a MC immediately and went a couple times by myself until she said she felt she could go. The admission that there was some emotional connection did not come out until mid November (along with the info that they had kissed). By first of December she seemed "back" and things were going pretty good. Still some infrequent text messages.

Wasn't until Feb 15th when I went to pay the cell phone bill that I noticed 4-5 days with 8-10 text messages a day sent to OM and a couple of short calls that I questioned. I asked again why she felt the need to contact him and whether she was "here because she wanted to be or because it was the right thing to do". She then said "I don't know what I want anymore". I thought things were going pretty good, but as soon as I mentioned the calls she had a melt down. I suggested she see an IC since at this point nothing was "my fault" and she insisted it was "not me". She agreed and had her first session Feb 20th. It wasn't until after her first session and at a time that I felt the need to hold her and comfort her that she told me she felt like she had been raped last June, and did not tell me because she didn't want to hurt my feelings. At this point she does not want any physical contact.

So, long answer to your question, but I thought I would expand the timeline.

Intimate : June-August (but declining)
Not : Sept-Nov
Intimate : Dec-Feb (1st Week)
not : since

Again Mrs. Wondering had some additional insight I thought I'd share.

With WW new line of thinking (i.e. - he raped me in June)which she didn't even devulged to you until Feb 20th but likely created in her mind back in Sept/Nov when she was busy rewriting history...your WW got to tell OM about the alleged rape. She got to play the victim, to be the damsel in distress, and suck OM back into the relationship with her so he would SAVE her from her aweful "rapist" husband.

A little insight on how a wayward spouse thinks.

All things which further enhance or develope her relationship with OM will be explored, discussed, and utilized.

All things which hinder or seek to interupt or destroy her relationship or "friendship" with OM are met with severe hostility, disrespect, anger, counter-offensives, etc.

All things else - DON'T MATTER and are ignored. Her health (other than to look good for OM), her family, her husband, her kids, her home, her friends (unless they support the addiction) fall by the wayside.

What have you done to snoop? Do you know that Radio Shack has a Voice Activated Digital Recorder that you can hide in her car and/or bathroom (whereever she carries on these conversations). Getting the truth and breaking through the barriers of DISHONESTY is a crucial step in breaking up the affair (along with exposure). It also protects you on the backside in the event of divorce as you have evidence upon which to base your allegations. You have 3 kids. You may need to be preparing the groundwork NOW to fight for custody later...I hope and pray that does not happen to you but if being just an every other weekend Dad does not appeal to you...start being prepared for the legal fight on the backside of Plan A, JUST IN CASE.

Mr. Wondering

This is how I got evidence that WH/OM were not just "friends". They sat in his car talking and kissing...it filled in a lot of the blanks.

MrWondering,

The extent of the OM was not brought up to our MC on her request which I foolishly honored. Should I request to go to a session with her IC since at this time she is saying she needs to get herself right before she can work on us?

We are not currently seeing an MC but are both seeing IC (not the same one, but happens to be that I am seeing her IC's husband).

Thank you again for responding.

Mr. Wondering & Confused,

I need some strength in this department...



At this point I can't bring myself to do this. The MC that we went to originally asked me what it would take to stop looking at the cell calls on line. I said at that point some reassurance that she was not talking with OM. Since the MC did not know the extent of the OM, she basically said to stop letting my mind wander and learn to trust again, that I had not been trusting and this was pushing my wife away. I have not been looking at the cell bill, only when I go to pay it online and there is usually ony 1 weeks wort of calls there at that time.

I think there is a part of me that doesn't want to accept it, and believe that through her IC she will see what is going on in her life and realize that she is making a mistake and that I am willing to forgive and forget (happily ever after). My wife is a very strong willed woman, and I fear that if I snoop she will rebel even further even if confronted with evidence. I don't want to lose her, I feel I am walking on eggshells.

That is why I mentioned going with her to her IC appt. At least there we would have a mediator.

Thanks again.

Snooping:

You have every right to know the facts and circumstances that effect your life. It's not fun. It's not, in itself, productive. It can become obsessive and destructive; but, much less destructive, in my and MB's estimation, than doing nothing.

Yes, she will be angry; but, a marriage can survive anger. It can not survive an on-going, ever-lasting, secretive affair even if they say it's just a friendship now. The affair and/or the dishonesty will eventually destroy your marriage.

Further, you don't necessarily have to reveal the evidence your snooping uncovers. For example, when I taped my wife's conversations with OM last spring I would wait a few days to reveal just a nugget of what I learned and then just act like I overheard a conversation. A WS's mind is too messed up to recall the when, where and how you got the information...they are much more concerned with HOW this information is going to affect their addiction. Further, just knowing some information without disclosing it will help you (and us) hone your battle skills in fighting for your marriage. Information IS power...and right now you are naked on the battlefield.

Again, you're IC needs to be fully informed of OM...otherwise his advice to "trust" your wife sounds idiotic. If, after you tell him, he sticks to this line of "not snooping" then dump him and call the Harleys. They are expensive, but convenient and PROFESSIONALS when it come to infidelity. Your wife must separate herself from OM for life. PERIOD. There are no compromises.

I don't know about talking to her IC (even if the IC would let you it may not be a good idea--cept to break up the counselor's confidentiality and make her your marriage counselor than all notes become fair game in divorce court). It's good that she's going and by fully informing her IC's husband (your IC)...they will necessarily both be fully informed (be sure to tell your IC he can discuss this with his wife).

BTW, when push comes to shove and you guys start fighting know that fighting is OK. Conflict is better than withdrawal and indifference. It is a step forward. Further, NO MATTER WHAT SHE SAYS...DO NOT MOVE OUT (they always ask for this and you were willing to walk out last spring, albeit only to the end of the driveway, but if you want to save your marriage, either she leaves or you stay together...period.)

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- your wife's behavior is not unique. Your marriage is savable as long as one marital partner remains sane, able and willing to save it. You will make it. Keep your chin up and don't get too "needy" or "clingy". We'll help you through this.

Mr. Wondering,

Thank you for the words of encouragement and a game plan. I am working on the walking out issue with my counselor, and do not plan to ever do that again. I will be talking to my IC on Monday and will share my new awakining on the situation with him at that time.

At this time she doesn't want to move out. I, again foolishly, asked if she wanted that more than once. Her answer is no, she wants me there and the kids need me there. I agree that the kids need me home, but I feel at this time since she does not want any physical contact whatsoever and verry little communication that I am there as her babysitter. It sounds harsh for me to even say that, but she couldn't work a 24hr shift (which one of her jobs requires) if I was not home.

I just read the P.S. of your last post and that is another are that I am working on. I feel that the way I dealt with the OM situation was to become "clingy" and recently the "needy" also applies. I am a big/strong man, but this situation makes me feel very weak. I will work on this as well.

You must stay home to work on the marriage. Sure you have been in a stalemate lately but with the help of MB principles hopefully things will start to change. Don't offer to leave again...if she wants space...she's a grown woman and can walk out that door (and abandon her children to you which helps in custody dispute later, if necessary). You need to read up on this site about Plan A, exposure, and fighting for you marriage.

Yes, the status quo is unacceptable. A good personal boundary for me last spring was I refuse to remain in a loveless marriage. Busting up the affair and recovery are processes...MB is the plan. Get to work developing and honing your plan. This place is a Godsend. Keep posting and asking questions and if you can afford it, call the Harleys.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-buy the books too, especially His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving an Affair

Don't worry...nearly all of us did this. It is detrimental but difficult to avoid. Plan A is about focusing on you and accepting the uncertainty of the situation. We will support you in your efforts and give you the intergrity strokes you so desparately need when you follow through with your MB plan.

BTW, Dr. Harley calls the MB Plan a narrow path. Many come here thinking they can pick and choose their own path through this mess. It won't work. The experienced, well worn, PROVEN path is the safest way to go. I strongly encourage you to read up on it fully, here and on the mainsite and in the books and follow through with it to friution.

Mr. W

Thank you again for all of your support, I will probably be leaning on here a lot in the near future. If you think of any additional information to pass on at this time I would appreciate that as well. I am going to be away from the site until tomorrow and will be checking back then.

Thanks again.

BB
When I go the recording of my WH/OW 1) It was sickening to hear them giggling and conspiring. OWH and I were there main conversation. Like 2 high school kids sneaking around behind their parents back. 2)It confirmed that I was not crazy. 3) It confirmed that WH was lying to me and I had to stop believing him and believe in myself more.

I have never really revealed to WH what I learned from the conversation. I did use the information to get more concrete evidence. When I exposed to OWH he would not have believed me if I didn't have the tape. OW put a great spin on how I was crazy jealous. Think of it as not gathering information to hurt her...but info to protect yourself.

Need some more advice today please. Monday was our counseling day, again not MC but IC (different counselors). She called home Monday night to tell the kids good night and said she would be home shortly. Called back an hour later to say she stopped off at the mall and did not want me to worry and that her counseling apointment went great. I was happy for her as she started to tell me things and then said let's wait till she gets home that she doesn't want to get into anything on the phone.

When she got home she proceeded to tell me how great the counseling was then said that her counselor and her talked about us moving, her to the north side of another school district and me to the south side of the district so the kids could go between houses during the school year. I was stunned at how she could be excited that her counseling went well and tell me this is what they talked about.

I went to bed that evening, but I never stopped thinking about it. I had to get out of bed at 5:00AM for a walk then drive, shower and much pacing. I couldn't take it any longer and at about 6:45 had to wake her and tell her how I felt (I know this was probably the wrong thing to do, but I feel like a doormat). I told her many things at this time, how I felt that she had ripped the heart from my chest, how the person I see before me today is not the person I remotely remember, how she doesn't care about my feelings in refernce to OM and is still contacting him. I also told her that I feel like I am the only one that is trying to make this work.

I know this unload was probably not good, but what do I do now. We have not spoken since. I really want this marriage to work, but this is not the person I know and love. I don't know if that person will ever be back.

Does she want to work on the M? Why are you guys not in MC?
Did you get evidence of affair yet and expose A? Are you in plan A? Did you think she was working to save marriage? Has she said she wants to divorce/separate?

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