merge,

That was an awesome post.

hurting,

Pay close attention to that post, I believe it will help you A LOT.

Hope you got some rest.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Merge-

This is the best post I have read in a long time.
______________________________________________________

Hurting-

We all want to know that our S is truly hearing our concerns. No rebutting or defending. These are his concerns/feelings--not to be argued. You want him to respect your feelings and not argue them, he needs the same from you.

Our MC counselor used to say that we would listen to each other and then say,"Yeah, but..." You do not need him to validate that you have changed, you know that you have. He is expressing fear that you have not. He is worried things may not be genuine, that you may go back to the way you were before. And, he knows he was not happy in that M. Those are his feelings. Try to take them in without feeling attacked/defensive. Just listen and show him you are hearing him. Same as you need from him.

Wow Merge, what a lovely post... I even feel much calmer after having read it...

How nice of you to take so much time to help Healing and numerous others who may read your post...

Sincerely, carnation

Merge:

I agree. What a wonderful post! I will be able to respond more later. It's been valuable for ME to learn that I am NOT ALONE in my POV and NOT ALONE in my LIFE EXPERIENCE with this..I had begun to question myself so THANKS for LETTING ME KNOW THAT YOU ARE OUT THERE....

I want to stress this that you said to Hurting. You were able to put this into words that I could not...



EXACTLY!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hurting,
I've been catching up on your sit.
I agree that things are changing with WH.
What a wonderful post from merge!!! Maybe we should put that out as a separate post so more could benefit from it. I know it helped my perspective.

You are gaining strength and confidence...it looks good on you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> He noticed...but he won't admit it.

OT.....

Merge where can we read your story. It sounds like you have a lot we can learn from! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Merge,

I just came on after taking a nap and read your post.

I am going to have to print this out and read it over and over. As its hard to read through tears.

I do understand what you are saying. It just hurts so much I am afraid to I will be hurt again and I don't want to go back there ever again.

I have said my WH many times that I heard his concerns and I have apoligized many times for my mistakes and it helped the state of our marriage become what it was.

So now maybe my reactions and things I said at the bank had harmed any progress I had made with him, I don't know. I do know our phone call though afterwards went very well.

So what do I do now? Do I wait for a move from him or do I make the first move? I really am not sure how to proceed from here.

Like I said I will re-read this post again and really study what you are saying....

I thank you very much for your insight and help. I guess right now I am stuck and don't know which way to turn anymore. I love him and want our marriage but I am afraid as well.... I don't know if i can get past the fear which is something that my WH can't seem to get past as well.


Hurting

Ok after re-reading merges post about 15 times I do see what is being said.

So now please and no 2x4's this is a legtimate question, how is anything he said on Monday considered negotiating? I truly am not getting it.

if that the case how do I negotiate back? Do I wait until he makes some move or do I make the first one? I have not heard anything from him since then. He has not tried to call or anything which is fine but how do I proceed from here?

I guess when your being screamed at and being told you have made no c hanges and hurt again by words you find it hard to see that as negotiating.

I really want to understand this.... I am not trying to be difficult just cautious....


Hurting

Why do we see your WH as negotiating?

He spoke to you about several very clear and specific points of concern that he has.

My H continues to have the same specific issues/concerns that he had about me and our marriage. We seldom if ever argue because I've learned uselessness of angry outbursts. However, whenever he gets the sense that I AM NOT GETTING IT AGAIN, he can get extremely angry (for a second or two- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I talk to him about it, tell him that I AM LISTENING and make him aware that I AM NOT CHANGING BACK to the way I used to be...

So, you see Hurting, your WH touched on HIS ISSUES. He did not talk about the weather, the price of gas or his favorite television show. In that brief conversation, he mentioned your father's death, your work history, the status of your house, etc.. I know I am not using the right words to express his concerns..but you get the picture...

I say..don't call him but send him a brief card or write a brief note, saying, I HEARD WHAT YOU WERE SAYING and I'M CONTINUING TO WORK ON CHANGING INTO A NEW AND IMPROVED HURTING...

As Merge states, you are not condonining his actions, just simply stating that you HEARD WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO TELL YOU...

He has to get the sense that YOU WILL LISTEN TO HIM in order for him to BELIEVE that RECOVERY can HAPPEN...

Make sense?

Mimi,

Just a quick response since i am off again to the ther job soon.

I see what you are saying but he also said that nothing I can say or do now would matter he is done....
So is that more babble or the truth? Who knows......

But I get it now.....


Hurting

All I can say is, my H said he was "DONE" too..

I'll never forget the day when he said to me: "FACE IT, IT'S OVER" with what seemed to be TRUE SINCERITY...

In May, it will be three years since he said that..

He's here in the bed soundly asleep...

I pray this for you...

If not, at least, YOU will have done all that YOU can do...

<<<<<<<<<Hurting>>>>>>>>>>

Seriously: I hope this does NOT come across as a 2X4. If so, then it would not be helpful to you.

"I guess when your being screamed at and being told you have made no changes"

What I hear as a mediator when you tell me that Hurting is that your H cares a lot about you, what you are doing, and the impact you have on his life. He is responding emotionally to the fear he has, to the situation the two of you are in and to how very much this all matters to him.

I understand that to you it is hurtful and blaming. And that your natural reaction is one of defence and anger.

Truly: this experience you are going through is enormously tough. I remember standing still while my H screamed at me, with tears running down my face. This was not typical for me. Screaming back at him had become quite commonplace by that time in our marriage (the A went on for a very long time without my having any sort of overt knowledge of it).

This is why contact needs to be limited between you. Being exposed to this behaviour is harmful to both of you. For example, my H remembers that day he screamed at me too. He was out of control. He was literally raging. He hated everything, and that included me. He loved me too. That never changed.

As it turns out, he was feeling enormously guilty that day about secretly seeing OW again. So he screamed at me. And he remembers my tears. He remembers that I did nothing other than say how sorry I was that he felt _______. He remembers being listened to. This stuff he remembers very very well.

Most importantly: when my H screamed at me, was that about me???

It is so very very difficult NOT to take those hurtful words and actions as being about you. And yet, they are NOT about you. Truly.

Your kids are responding to your H's fear differently. Your son and daughter have both talked about their fear of losing dad. And kids take their sense of identity from both parents which is why bad things said about one or the other are deeply wounding to the children (whether or not they verbalize it).

There is so much fear and chaos associated with infidelity and family trauma. Everyone reacts in their own way, which unfortunately tends naturally toward the negative and unhealthy -- acting out, drinking too much, obsessing, anger, denial, etc.

I'm sorry my time is so limited to talk about this Hurting. Hope these few words to describe complex behavioural interactions helps a bit.

About the "being done" thing -- people often articulate their worst fear as a challenge to others (an accusation, a blaming statement). For example, if someone says: "You think I'm stupid!" it's likely because they are scared that they are missing something important, and it also likely indicates they have a general fear of being called "stupid", which probably dates back to their childhood.

When your H screams at you that "we're done", there's a very high likelihood that he fears you really are done. He's testing. Many do. Few mean it.

When we really are done, we tend to simply BE done. Move on. Don't care. Kindness or indifference is more the norm than anger. Anger indicates an internal problem, not an external one.

Does that help at all?

Hurting, if I had more time, I'd go through and highlight another few spots where your H is feeling threatened. But just talking about this in general terms: he has a long history with you. You are very easy to blame, an easy target. And my suggestion is to stop arguing with him. For a couple of reasons:

1. The more he blames you, the worse he blames you, the harder it makes recovery.
2. If you take away the resistance, it changes the dynamic. He can stop trying to convince you (and everyone else) that he's right. Does this seem too simple to be effective? It's actually incredibly powerful. He can look around and see what he’s “won” by being right. He has a chance to decide for himself if this is what he wants. This is often a turning point in the relationship.

The lighthouse approach is to smile serenely, or bravely through your tears, and say I hear you, I apologize (only if you legitimately mean it), I'm sorry you feel that way, and goodbye. End it. Screaming is not helpful, not to listen to, not to do. He's already got enough to feel guilty about and you already have enough to forgive him for.

The lighthouse approach is that you understand internally -- you really and truly understand, deep down inside you and you ACCEPT -- that his pain and anger are not about you. They are about him. His failures and his losses. He’s the one that needs to deal with them, in his own time and his own way.

My suggestion is don't add to them, and don't accept them as your own. Keep your focus on you instead.

"I see what you are saying but he also said that nothing I can say or do now would matter he is done"

What you do and say matters Hurting. Think of it as many drops in the ocean. They all add up. Each one may be significant. And yet it is just another drop in the ocean. You and your H have been pulling and tugging at one another constantly in the 9 months or so that I've been keeping a casual eye on your situation.

While we all like to predict the future, it remains an unknown. This is the most important lesson I've taken away from my experience. I’ve learned to live in the moment, something that is considered to be an enlightened state of being, something we humans tend to learn when we come closest to death.

Infidelity is the death of our marriage and many deeply held beliefs about an intimate relationship with another person (such as safety within a marriage, the assumptions about vows and promises, being the "one" to another person in life, etc.). We face enormous loss regardless of how our marriage fares in future. The grieving process is hard and long regardless of how our marriage fares in future.

We can take these lessons we've learned in this terrible school of hard knocks, and unlock secret places within ourselves, as I've watched you do. Learn to understand ourselves differently, learn the depth of our love for others, learn tough skills such as detachment from loved ones who are engaged in self-harm. No one chooses to learn these lessons with such reckless speed, through such enormous pain and loss. We all wish it was not happening to us.

Acceptance. Grace. Courage. Wisdom. These are our choices when faced with the previously unimaginable. One of the reasons I seldom speak about infidelity casually with my colleagues is because I am all too well-aware of my own attitude BEFORE; I too said I’d leave my H in a second if he was ever unfaithful. And I meant it too. I really did. I did not KNOW, and now I’ve learned.

I love what I’ve learned although I would never wish this learning on another human being.

"I love him and want our marriage but I am afraid as well"

Courage is taking step after step despite the fear. Keep your fear front and centre. Name it. Anger is secondary to the fear. Say to yourself: I'm scared. (Try it Hurting, it’s powerful to name your own emotions.)

From my POV, whether you do anything specific with your H or not isn't important. And it is. (Think of the ocean -- there aren't any right or wrong answers.) The person I think you need to focus on right now is you. Your attitude to your marriage is what will determine its future. It rests in your hands alone. Strange but true.

Take care, Merge

P.S. Honestly, I don't think you are doing anything wrong Hurting. I'm suggesting that you are starting to flag, to lose steam. And I hope I can give you a little bit of support -- a drink of Gatorade -- that might help you make it during this tough stretch...:>)

merge,

everything you say does make a lot o sense to me. I know he is scared he has told me as that many times.

I also know intellectually that his anger means he still cares or loves me. I also believe that if he was truly done he would just walk away and not feel the need to be angry and blame me for everything. He would just leave me alone and that would be it.

he tries so hard to convnve everyone how happy he is and how he must move on with his life.

He has said to me just in the last few weeks everytime we speak he has to move on with his life. He said several times in the bank parking lot and then on the phone I have to move on with my life. I wanted so badly to say who are you trying to convince me or you, but all I could say is So do I.

I don't want to scream, yell or argue with him. the anger I showed at the bank Monday was the first anger I have directed at him since he has left our home. And to be honest the anger I showed was very minimal. Once I realized I was getting angry I backed it off but yet stood my ground with him and stayed in control.

When he threw that money in my car and walked away screaming he was going to call the police and say I stole his money, I knew then he was out of control and not thinking rationally. But instead of just getting in mycar and leaving eith his part of the money which was tempting to say the least I calmly gahtered it all up and asked him did he want it. I said yuo know you can't prove that as the bank teller saw us together and you put your fingerprint on the check. Once I pointed this out he became calm and accepted the money.

then thats when he started with the I am moving on with my life thing again and said I am going to see my attorney right now. Which he did do. Thats when he found out about the letter from my attorney. All i said to him was go see your attorney because I am to the point I don't care anymore. Yes I had tears in my eyes when I said it and yes I said WH I never in my life thought we would be in this place. Thats when I left.

It was maybe 30 mins. later when I talked to him again and he apologized for his anger and yelling at me. I accepted his apology , now whether or not his apology was true or just away to maybe guilt me into giving him the extra 600.00 he wanted by claiming to want it to buy our son clothes I have no idea. I told him I had already planned to do that and he should have said to me thats what he wanted it for. So thats why I have a hard time believing that story. In reality though if he wanted to spend that much money on our son he could have said ok now that we split this I will spend XXX on DS for clothes and you spend XXX on DS. Thats why I feel he was trying to manipulate me into giving him the money. Once I said that was my plan he never offered to take any of his part to buy anything. Now its all on me. Which is fine because DS needs things.

I for now and have been focusing on me and what I have to do now. I can't deal with him anymore at this time because its not healthy for me. I can't do anything to fix him or change his mind about anything. All I can do is move forward in my own life and take care of me and my children.

I know have to start looking for a place to move to that I can afford, I have to pack up 25 yrs of my life and move it. And I have him saying to me maybe you could get section 8 housing or something. here I am having to move from our home of 17 yrs and he is telling me to go for low income housing. I am loosing my home and he does not care.

I know I am rambling here and not making much sense but I just don't know what to think anymore. I don't want ot think anymore I just want life to settle into some kind of peace.

You are right about one thing though I am running out of steam. I am so tired I just want ot forget all of this. I want one day I don't ask myself why. I want one day I don't think about him at all. I want peace.... I still love him and alway will I am sure to some degree but my patience and hope are just about run out. If I could just see one small baby step from him anything I could probably keep going but I don't see that. i see him getting further and further away. Maybe I am not seeing small things that mean something I am not sure. i just know I am weary and need to rest.


Hurting

Hi Hurting,

Thinking of you. How are you doing?

Lady,

Thanks for checking on me. I am doing good. Been working long hours so not much time for anything. Between both jobs I have been putting in 14 and 15 hour days the last week or so. So when I am hre its sleep time.

Nothing happening in the WH front. He did come by last night to pick up a speaker of his and he didn't try to speal to me or see me which is fine. I had went out to my car to get my hat for work as he was here when I had to go and he just ignored me. I was kind of shocked seeing how just on Monday when we spoke on the phone and he apologized we talked like two normal people. The only weord thing abpout it was DD had been outside speaking to him and came in to potty and she told him she would be right back out and before she could get back out he was gone. No goodbye or anything its like he had to rush back.

Anyhow things are quiet and busy. I am leaving this weekend with DS. We should have a good time and I am happy to be getting away for a few days.


Hurting

Wow!!! 14-15 hr days working. I hope you're eating well and sleeping well or it will take a toll on you after a while. Vitamins will help too.

You're doing a great job!!

I think he probably wanted you to notice his presence there, but the one that ignored you was a guilty WH not your H. Don't take it personally.

Anyway....I hope you and DS have a great weekend. Where are you going?

Lady

lady,

We are going to six flags in Texas..... I am looking forward to it as is Ds.

Yeah I know the person who ignored me was the WS in him. I didn't take t personally at all. He flops like the wind....


Hurting