Hi! I have not been posting for some time while having first talks with WH. Need advice now.
He told me that A was not my fault, he likes/admires me, but it is not happy now and want to be "alone" to "figure things out". After the first talk, I said OK, I was going to move also and go to a smaller place with kids, find new school for them, we can sell the house. He was surprised by my reaction.
We met again 2 days later and he said he wants to try marriage counseling. I gave him "surviving an affair" to read and told him I was willing to try, but that it would not work while he is still with OW. He has been very nice and we had very open (and I hope honest) conversations. But I don't want to fool myself. The truth is that he is leaving and he is still with OW.
I will continue to expose the A, and Carrot/ Stick. I am trying to meet his EN of social life and recreational because that was lacked in our M. But, should I go out with him socially? Isn't pretending nothing is happening? What about sex? It is also a EN, but he would be getting from me and OW. ISn't that sick? And if he tries and I say no, would this push him away? Is he trying to manipulate me?
Thanks for advice...

The truth is that he is leaving and he is still with OW.

what do you mean this is the truth...
what truth is there in...
he said he wants to try marriage counseling

did you two set up counseling
did you get a counselor.
have you gone to one yet...

huh huh huh huh..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

why not WHAT are you waiting for...

But, should I go out with him socially?

why not go out with him socially with you in control of the interactions...

leave him on a high note...wanting more each time..

let you be the one that he is chasing...

why not invite him to wonderful family things...and just when it's feeling good and warm and safe...kick him out...saying...you better go now...we have plans....we the family...but thanks for coming it was really really good having you here....

ARK

We just spoke yesterday about marriage counseling so I left a message to the therapist today. I talked to him today and he said he really wants to go and that he really needs time to himself. He called me because I told his brother that he is leaving home and his brother called him. He asked me not to talk to anybody else about it because he needs his time.

estrala..

my opinion is that if he has been having a physical affair with someone else...then sexual contact puts you at risk for infections....

you would need to talk to him about that..
you would need to have testing done..
you should know whether he has already potentially exposed you to anything...

this does not mean that you can not be intimate...not meaning sex...
and you can be touchy feely and flirty..

my recomendations if you can handle the emotional aspect..is like you are newly dating activity....

but most important is protecting yourself...

ARK

As ark mentioned, SF at this point puts you at risk of infection. I was a casualty of that but it happened before D-day. Protect yourself. WH is not going to leave you because OW gives him SF and you don't. If you decide to have SF, use protection and do it because it is what you want.

If WH wants time alone - it is most likely he wants time alone with OW to see if the A will work out. It is not likely he wants time alone to see if the two of you will work out. He wants you to stay put as his fallback position.

You asked for help on Plan A but, if WH is out of the house, that is more like Plan B.

As long as WH is with OW, serious MC is a big waste of time and money. There is no way WH is going to speak candidly to an MC in front of you. IC would be more appropriate. If you do go for MC, I would only do it for a specific purpose and that is to try to get help to establish some guidelines for the two of you for the time being. Then go back to MC once WH and OW are splits.

I am not a big fan of manipulation. I personally don't like to have an agenda. I prefer to let things happen as they will and make sure I respond appropriately. I think WH would see through you pretty quickly and stop accepting your invitations if you immediately cut him off just as he was beginning to enjoy himself.

I do like the part about him chasing you. Go do some research on the 180 plan. I fell into the 180 plan quite by accident and it was only to preserve my sanity. I think the 180 approach has benefits as long as it is done passively and is natural. Again, I think having an agenda is hurtful to both of you.

You will never be able to manipulate another human being for very long. Continuing to try will be frustrating for both of you.

Pretending things are hunkydory in front of the world - well, everyone does that to some extent or another don't they? How many times have you asked someone "how are you today?" and really hoped to get an honest answer. What you want to here is "fine". It will be easy to convince people that things are fine because that is what they want to believe. If you have any intention of salvaging your M, this is one time you will just have to suck it up. The fact is things won't be "fine" for quite some time. Are you two just going to hide in the house until then? The M won't survive that.

I think you should go out socially because, according to your original post, this was one of your own problems. It is a great opportunity to show WH who you are and what he will be missing. If you are going to try Plan A, you need face time with WH.

I can't believe WH would run the risk of divorcing a lawyer. Is he just stupid or what? You could take him for all he will ever be worth <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep exposing. Keep exposing. Keep exposing.

He is stupid, but he knows he married a nice lawyer (the OW is also a lawyer).
I will protect myself, I do not want to have SF with him right now because of OW. I will let him feel I would be open otherwise.
I am not ready for Plan B. Maybe when I leave the house also. If we continue like this, I will move in July by myself to a smaller place and get a new school for the kids. Then I will Plan B him big time. Now I am not sure he is worth of Plan A. We had such a good time the other day, and then he just said I don't want him right now and he needs to be alone. Alone with her that's more like it. I am getting more hurt and upset each day.
I told him about NC and that only after that we can try again. But I think it will be good to try MC. I will try to find more about 180 plan.
I hate all that. I just wanted to get married and have a happy family. Thank you for support. Really.

If you do consider the 180 plan, think it through carefully. Parts of it seem practical and logical and other parts are a bit extreme from my POV. Generally the plan should be employed further along in Plan A when nothing else seems to be working, IMO, because it is somewhat contradictory to Plan A. I think you need to be consistent in whatever you do. I guess I just drew the line between preserving my sanity and manipulation. Part of 180 was necessary for me and part was not. I ignored the part that was not.

I will swear though that my WW has always responded positively to any part of 180. It is like she begins to realize that her position is at risk so she struggles to get the safety net back and then runs off to OM again. Don't take this wrongly but 180 is almost like training a dog. If the dog does something it is supposed to, it gets rewarded. Did I just compare WW to a dog? I mean this only in a behavioral science context.

Are you a US citizen or will you have potential green card issues in case of divorce?

Wow, WH leaving one lawyer for another one. Kind of like playing Russian roulette without any empty chambers in the gun. The man seriosuly needs his head examined. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Estrala -

I don't know your entire story, but is it absolutely necessary for you to be separated right now? It sounds like Ark knows more of your story....his advice is always good. I would try to stay in Plan A longer, attracting your WH back to you & meeting as many EN's as you can. Plan B is for further down the road(of course, I don't know how long you have been in Plan A)

Good luck,

Kim

I found out about the A on Valentines Day, but it's been going on for 3 years (we are married 5 years). We had 2 kids and no time for ourselves.
I know I can change that now that the kids are older and make him love me again. I think he sees that also. BUT he said he wants to leave the house now to think. And that hurts most of all, now that I now they are together.
I've been doing plan A since I found out about A. But sometimes the pain and the anger are so strong I don't know if it is worth it. And he needs to realize he needs to change. I don't want him back like he is now. He said he is considering therapy, so maybe going to MC will be a step on this direction. I have meeting for thursday, but sometimes I just want him and all his issues out of my life.

Traic, I am already US citizen, so no green cards issues.

Help needed!!!

WH is home today. He came with his kids form 1st M, stayed with all four kids while I went to a luncheon celebrating 100 years of my university. I came home, he was nice, said I looked pretty. But I know they are together, that when he is not here, he is sleeping at her apartment. Why he keeps lying to me? I did not ask him to come home. He called, said he wanted to come and talk, then called again that he was going out with a friend and it was going to be too late to come home. And now I know he was with her. Why he bothered to lie??? It hurts that much more each time. I don't want to fool myself with his nice behaviour, but I am so happy when he is around and participating in the kids life, my life.
I feel I am being teared apart. Help!

WS's lie. That is what they do. If you learn to expect the lie, trust that he is not going to tell you the truth, it is much easier to deal with. A huge problem in dealing with the A and the desire to R is trust. You want to believe but the reality of it is that you can't. Trust, IMO, will be the very last thing you will get back if you do recover the M. I know the lies hurt but it is just one more in a long line.

Did you have that talk he mentioned in his agenda? What was it about?

So you have been at the university for 100 years? I have heard of professional students but you win the prize. Are you ever going to graduate?

Thank you for replying and for taking the heaviness away.
It is true. He lies, I should just not even expect anything else for the moment (but it is hard, I want so much to believe him again, just like waking up from a nightmare).
We spoke last week. He said he wanted to be alone (to figure things out) but he liked me, and wanted to try marriage counseling. I said OK, but nothing is going to really work while he is still with OW. He couldn't respond to that.
I gave him "Surviving an Affair". I don't know if he is reading. He wants to spend the week in NY (with her, until he finds a place, but then he will be with her still) and come in the weekends with his kids. That until we sell the house and then I guess we will have to decide. I mean I will be by myself if he does not finish A by then.

Estrela,

So you still have strong feelings of love for WH then? If there is any way at all that you can get him to move back home? That would make your Plan A work so much better. If not, I suggest you ask for help from people who know how to do a really good separated Plan A.

Make sure when your WH is at home that you look good, the house is clean, etc. What does your H like? What are his ENs??

Again, I think it is too early to go into Plan B even though the A has been ongoing for a long time. You should try to do a good Plan A.

I understand how hard it is, knowing that WH is with OW. It tears you up inside. I am so sorry that you are having to go through this. Your WH is in a FOG. He is not himself & has not been for some time. It will take time to bring him out of this & back to YOU. You be the lighthouse to help bring him home.

Kim

I know you want to trust but you can't. Just get it out of your mind. No don't tell about the dinner. Don't confront WH with anything you discover right now. Just file it away. Confronting with any evidence reveals your source nad just drives WH into more secrecy. He thinks you are stupid and that he can easily hide things from you. Let him continue to believe that.

Go read up on the five stages of grief. It is here somewhere but I am sorry I don't have time to find the URL. You need to understand the process you are in and will continue to go through.

Plan A is the best start. If you cannot move out until July, try to keep WH at home as much as possible until then. Study up on what LB's abd DJ's are. If you have any trouble with those, just read my thread and do the opposite of everything I have done and you will be perfect.

It has been a while since your original post. What about exposure of the A? What have you done and what are your options?

And now that we are friends again, he keeps telling me stories that refer to her friends, trips he took with her, things I know he did with her. It is driving me crazy. Can I just ask him to STOP telling me anything related to her, or he will just stop talking to me?

I exposed him to his family, but they all live in other cities/ countries and I know he is trying to avoid confrontation. His brother has been calling him. His mother is trying to reach him. Also a cousin he likes. His friends are his friends and they know about it. I told my family, but I don't think it will have an effect on him.

Otherwise, I think he wants to continue with her, but not loose me. Until when? Each second hurts, can't he see that?

Others here with more experience might have a better answer but my guess is that he cannot. Let's assume your WH is a "good" person. I am making that assumption because, if he were not, you probably would not want him back. He has to adopt certain coping strategies to rationalize the affair. He compartmentalizes it so that his mind can accept what he is doing as a good thing. IMO there will be a time, later on, that he will have to deal with your pain but that time is not now. If you follow the stick theory of Plan A then you have the right not to hide the fact that he has hurt you. But since you are not going to make him capitulate simply by virtue of the fact that he is hurting another human being, I think you need to mitigate that to an extent. I don't think WH is going to want to come back to a whiney, teary eyed, BW. I think that the guilt might even drive him further away. Unfortunately we BS's in Plan A have to suck it up and deal with the pain as best we can because we no longer have WS as a support group.

I am so sorry for what you are going through. Nobody deserves it. My pain lingers. It is not as intense as it was. That is some relief. I don't know when it will go away because I haven't gotten there yet.

If he is bragging about the OW to you, you should stand up to him and make it your boundary NOT to have to hear about her. YOu can walk away or hang up the phone..... you can't stop him from babbling but you can stop yourself from listening.

If that means he stops talking to you, then all the more reason to end the convo. This means he wants to hurt you.

L.

When you say his mother is trying to reach him, do you mean that she is trying to influence him and get him to end his wicked ways or she is trying to call him and he won't take her phone call?

My natural reaction is to immediately confront WW when I find out new details. In my experience, that has always been a huge mistake. Confronting WW with newfound evidence I was:

1) unprepared to know what I expected or wanted out of the conversation.
2) never going to get the response I really wanted.
3) giving up a valuable intel source.
4) driving WW further underground making it even harder to find things out.
5) only upsetting myself.
6) setting myself up for disinformation from a compromised source of information.

Let's just say that, hypothetically, you found out in advance about a dinner date. You obviously want to intervene to prevent the date. You confront. You do all the things I mentioned above and you may even cancel the dinner - for now. The dinner will be rescheduled and the down side for you is that you have just made the A even more exciting and intriguing than before. If part of the A is the excitement, don't feed it - starve it.

I know it hurts. I know it eats you from the inside out. I know because it happened to me. Take care of yourself. Show strength even when you have none. Take courage where you find it. (and don't read my thread any more - I am a terrible example of what to do)