Man o man pops, you have a huge plate~~~~

Ok, lets start with baby steps.

How about starting with a good md to get fullhouse some freaking help?????

Now, while waiting for a few counseling sessions and meds to kick in, play your guys music from back in the day, beach boys? beatles? sly and the family stone? Stylistics?Led Zepplin?

Whatever.... invest in a few cd's and play em..... dinner time....tv time....whatever.

A little eminem could posibly get you in the mood...ha ha 'shake that as#' is a good motivator.....heh heh..

Now I see a great love story, a man in shining armour who is not appreciated as well as a woman who felt alive and now has hot flashes and all that crap, and weight to go with it.

Ignore the weight, look at the woman. FullHouse. Quit beatin yourself up and take pops up on an offer. Girl you da bomb in his eyes.... Let him be Superman ,if only for a night, and see what he'll give back!!!

As for the kids problems? HA! They will always have problems, we do too!!!
Handle with love and care and help from a distance!!!!

Offer support, but if you do not care for one another, the fortress will fall and nobody will have anywhere to go!


Stick it out a while longer, but no more than that, for life is fleeting and you must be true to yourself, not selfish, and let life take you to a new direction if things aren't improving in a few months.

FullHouse, get help girl.... pops is beggin after 5 years!
He loves you!
Get help if you love him.

Together you can conquer everything and with God all things are possible.

Tigger, love you and hope that Abbi, the rest and sailorman are all cool~ How about your guys adopted D who showed up last year? Firstborne???

And Mary, you know how to find this old bat~ You were a first responder to my Mom's passing..... I'll never forget it! oooxxx
Debi

pops~

I know depression runs deep and isn't just "situational" or whatever. But do you think fh is resentful over the fact you insisted on contact and cs? Are you completely certain the peace that would come from NC and no CS wouldn't change fh's attitude, and in turn help your M?

Pops,
Sorry to hear the latest. I always enjoy reading your post. It makes me think. Anyway, I was thinking maybe I am wrong because I doin't know MM or the entire sitaution or laws in Ca.

That MM just agreed to FH because FH was upset at the time or his W was there and he did not mean it. It sounds from what you said he loves grace. Do you think he would just sign away his rights? I don't know you would know better. It means he will never see Grace again. You guys would definetly need to go to court for that. Maybe court is not a bad idea to get things in writing anyway. Oh, yeah, I don't know legally if MM can sign away his rights unless you adopt Grace.

It sounds like you and FH have a lot to think about and work out.

By the way, just so know you guys are not the only ones that are making slow progress. I am right there with you guys. And Ws A affair happened 3 months before FH.

Right know I am worried becasue H is in Las Vegas by himself on a business trip. He is there for 6 days. My grandma told me that she would not trust any man in Las Vegas by himself believe me if I had the money I would be right there with him. The trip is legitamte. He gave me all the information from his company and he is suppose to train the whole week there.


Dawn

gem,,, funny you should mention music. several times at night i put a station on the tube (no picture, black screen) at night called love songs by the coast. end to end love songs from about the 70's on. if i didn't make any effort she would climb in bed roll over and knock off to sleep.

one time i called her in the middle of the day. when she answered i had been listening to leann rymes. i just held the phone to the speaker while "how do i breath without you" was playing (loud). when it was over she said "oh i thought you hit dial by mistake". when i told her no it was intentional she said nothing. when she came home there wasn't the slightest sign of affection in her. just another day.

and i am not beggin anymore. i have come to the realization that she is not capable of meeting any of my needs.

ad,,,, i am sure that right now she is resentful somewhat. but like i said before that is just the latest excuse to be down. depression does indeed run deep and it runs twice as deep if you are unwilling to seek the help that you need.

you know i just asked her that last night. my question " if i were to agree to let om sign away his rights, do you (fh) think that you would be able to find happiness?" her answer was "i don't know but it may help. i have alot of problems right now". what could i reply?

she wrote me a letter last night telling me the things she likes about me and the things that she doesn't. likes the way i touch her and hold her and she feels safe when she is around me. doesn't like that i don't complain about her weight and she says i don't care how big she gets. where the heck did that come from? do you know what the life expectancy of a husband is that complains about his w's weight? what ever happened to growing old together and love her for better or worse. and loving a person for who they are inside and for the life struggles that you have been thru together. maybe the wedding vows should have read for thickker or thinner, BUT NOT MORE THEN 10 POUNDS. so does this mean that she is unhappy with her own weight to the point that she is also unattracted to me because i gained weight after my health problems. i always thought we were a match. when she was thin i was thin, when she went up 5 lds i went up 5 lbs, 10 lbs to 10 lbs.

i don't know i am just soooooo frustrated about her attitudes that i am at the end of my rope. i thank you all for listening

dawn,,, i don't believe that om would give up all rights either. and if he did in order to get out of paying i don't believe for a minute that he would walk away for ever. like i said with kids going to the same school and all he would somehow still be there.

i am sorry that you are in such a slow recovery also. what tends to be your big issue?

faith ,,,,,thanks, and i'll take it. i never turn down a hug.

i will disagree with you gem. i still think that visitation and cs can work. i don't think that that is the reason i'm out of gas. it is more our relationship limbo that is draining me. sure the other night was a scene. but there are scenes everyday in life. people cut you off on the road, jump in front of you when a new check stand opens at the store, messes up your order at the drive-thru. scenes just happen. you just deal with them and move on.

one more quick question. i have seen this term several times and can't for the life of me put it together. what in the world does "kwim" stand for?

KWIM stands for Know What I Mean. It took me a while to get it also. I find it really inspiring that you still after all this fel the C can work. It gives me hope when things aren't so great. I love my stepson but gosh deal with ow for the rest of our lives. Well just the thought saddens me so. Funny thing is for the most part shes not even a pain in the you know what. She has her moments but I think we all have you know. Anyway keep your head up.

pops,

{{{{pops & fh}}}}}}

It's so good to hear from you again but I sure am sorry to hear there's another bump in this recovery road. But kinda like in our ol' cruisin' days, don't go around it, don't speed over it,,just take it slow and easy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I really wish you could get fh to post. How about the "Private Forum". It's small, very protected, no problems there and not accessible by everyone. Might be worth mentioning to her??!!

and KWIM is "know what I mean?"

Ok, it sounds like FH is MUCH like me in the blaming myself game. I know that there is much more beneath my issues with intimacy and such, and for a woman, it is embarrassing, especially if you are a FWW! I am STILL dealing with these issues, and now, with Sailorman almost the whole country away, I am actually thinking, "Why do I do this to us?" I've been to counseling(before either of my A's), was on Welbutrin, none of it has ever seemed to help. I just ordered 2 books from christian book dot com(not sure if I can write that out the correct way) by Linda Dillow and Lorraine Pintus. One called Intimate Issues and the other is Intimacy Ignighted. I've been wanting to get the second one forever, but finally, now that I'm actually trying to deal with whatever this block is, just did it. I'm not saying that this will "fix" whatever my problem is, but I'm willing to give it a try. I'm also just assuming that from your post that SF is the issue here. Not sure though.

Also, she does need to get it out some how! She needs someone to actually talk to, not necessarily a counselor either! It sounds like she's holding on to her guilt over the A, and it doesn't help to hear you, over 4 years after D-day, calling her a dip$h!t either. I should hope that I would not hear Sailorman refer to me in that way, especially to another person who SO despised me, let alone where anyone who decided to listen to the ranting and raving could hear(ie all your neighbors). Maybe you both need to revisit the EN questionare. Sailorman and I did so just last year, and I am going to redo mine after reading these 2 books. FH needs to have someone to talk to about this who isn't so ingrained with it. Does she have any friends who would just listen, even if they can't offer any advise or help? And, it needs to be someone other than you right now. She probably doesn't want to open any old wounds with you, so she holds it all in. I think that I offered it before, but if she wants to talk to me I have NO problem with it. I can offer an completely unattached shoulder to cry on and probably a bit of understanding, having been in her shoes to a point.

Of course, all this is from the WW pov, and I'm just trying to help you both here. It sounds like you both still love eachother, but FH is still feeling like she's just days after D-day. If I'm way off the mark, sorry. Again, I just want to help you both in the best way I can! Please don't give up NOW!

Ok pops. Above you said when Grace is away and you two can have free time, you don't because FH is worried.

Then she said 'maybe it would make her happy' if you asked om to give up all rights for Grace.

Then the whole haircut thing went against FH. She realizes this may happen again down the road and she has no control really. It wasn't life threatening, but for FH, life interfering w/her little girl.

You still seem to think visits will be ok. I noticed you added cs in your statement. I think it was AutumnDay who mentioned somewhere here money isn't always worth any pain or aggravation, especially when Grace hides when it's time to leave her home~ Maybe FH hates it too, you did force this on her and she only agreed half-hearted if I remember right. Maybe she's filling up w/resentment for you and herself for ever being in this position in the first place.

That is only the tip of the ice burgh.

When my H calls w/a song for me to hear, I'm thrilled. Often I do it back. It's romantic too. I'm sorry FH reacted so negative to your call.

If she is depressed, make getting some kind of help a mandatory thing. It may well turn things around.

Tigger, I am not the ws, but discussing everything with my H allowed me to get inside his head and alleviate my fears and concerns on what we expected our future life to be like. Withholding anything that causes stress or pain will only cause problems down the road. If you don't agree with something and do it just to please the other but you yourself aren't comfortable with it, it'll backfire someday.

Forgive me if I am misreading you.

I do agree the wondering how and why you did this comes up from time to time. My H , out of the blue while watching tv or something will say "Why couldn't I have just done the right thing with you? I wish we didn't have this stain on us" I usually say, "it's what makes life interesting hon, we've passed that time up and are doing fine, don't you think?" Then I'll smile or hug him. I know it's something he has to learn to live with too.

I think pops and FH love each other too. I just think pops needs more affection, and attention. Some feedback for his efforts.

We play those love songs on our tv too pops. It's when we talk and spend time together talking about whatever comes up. It's a sweet gesture.

Again, if FH is never smiling or somewhat happy and always ignoring your efforts, I'd make her see an MD and allow her time to start to feel better again.
KWIM???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One last thing, hot flashes and weight gain and mood swings all go along w/menopause. You could walk each night after dinner to help her start to feel good. Take a few kids along. After a week you'll look forward to your walks. Guaranteed to lose a few pounds doing that....

God Bless pops. You too FH.

Debi

Gem, Yes, you are misreading a bit. I wasn't saying that FH shouldn't talk to Pops. It's just that having been in her shoes, I know it's difficult to do so. I still have a hard time talking to Sailorman about things and we are going on 6 yrs of recovery. It's the guilt that's always going to be there. I was just saying that if it's easier to talk to someone who isn't so close to their situation, just to have an ear to get it all out. That's what I had here when we first found this place, and unfortunately there were too many who didn't understand where FH was coming from, hurt her too many times with their comments, and she doesn't feel comfortable here any more. Heck, I usually DON'T post here UNLESS it's similar to my situation, because in a very real way the FWW, especially if she's also the FMOW with the OC, is not looked upon by the newbies as helpful. For a perfect example, look at the two new WW/FWW posters and see how many other's have posted to them. And, please don't take this as complaining, but we as WW's do have issues that even the WH's don't have, being we are women and they are men and we handle things so differently. I didn't mean for any of my post to infer that FH keep things from Pops, just that to get it out in the first place may be easier to do so with a friend who can then help encourage the open conversation later. Maybe help sort out her thoughts and be able to present them in an easier way than just blurting them out.

Now, I'm a little confused here where you say the following:




&



I wonder if this is what's happening. Just curious. I do remember all the conversations on the board when the cs/c/nc was all being hashed out, and as I said before, I understand Pops position on this. I'm not judging whether this is the right thing or not, just pointing out how these two statements seem to back each other up so to speak. Was that your intention, or am I reading into it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry if my post seemed to be telling FH to keep it all in, that's NOT what I was trying to do. Having been in the position of guilt and such, I know it's easier to talk to someone else first, especially if you are in fear of hurting the one you love the most even more by what you have to say! I was thinking more along the lines of a sounding board for FH, not a safe deposit box that only she has the key to. Keeping whatever is bothering her in is what's causing this canyon to develope in their M and sometimes it takes someone else to help fill it back in(meaning a friend to talk to). Of course, all of this is assumtion on my part since we DON'T know what's going on for FH.

I feel as if I need to say more, but can't get it to sound right. I just don't want my previous post to seem like I feel FH should keep things from Pops. That was NEVER the intention of the post. I will go back and re-read that post. It's just difficult for the WW to find a place to get support, no fault pointing, just a fact of life. I was just trying to help suggest some things to maybe help get the depression dealt with. And, sometimes all it takes is an understanding shoulder from someone who's been in similar shoes. Still love ya though! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Tig~
About those statements, yes I was pointing out that maybe FH just agreed to cs/visitation because pops was pushing for it. Maybe it's been bothering FH? That's where the 'backfire' thing comes in....

Hey I get what you mean about talking to someone to get it all out and maybe FH should go to the private board or better still e-mail you.

I get the understanding shoulder too. It can mean so much.

You know I love and respect you too, you've been my friend for a long time~

Tigger I don't read all of the posts, just when it's an oldie I try to help out.
I haven't seen many newbies posts~

Just know I did mistake what you were saying (lightbulb going on inside my head now) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No offense, ok?

Love ya
Debi

WOW, this is an interesting yet heartbreaking saga.

When I was angry, and ready to flee the marriage I was just like FH is now. She is depressed with a capital D. She sounds disengaged and overwhelmed. Her actions, as I read them, sound of bitterness, anger, exhaustion DEPRESSION. Her daughter has just had her haircut by the wife. What is next?

You mentioned pierced ears. How does she stop it? If the father says fine, and that he wants his wife to pierce the ears of his daughter, then what? Go to court? Is every detail of raising this child going to be a court drama?

What about the OMW? You have physical custody, but they have visitation, so he can have his daughter picked up by his wife. Just as you drive that child around. See? Your wife is watching all of this. Then the wife says something about more time with Grace? I can see where FH is over the top plum worn out. All this for what? Who is benefiting here? Grace? Sounds like she is being raised in a blender.

Mom is depressed, Step mom sounds like she hates mom. Stepdad wants to keep the check coming in, Dad would be happy to sign off,,,, who gets what here? Where is the benefit to anyone? Is the time with her dad worth the destruction of everyone else?

I would take FH for a walk, each night. I would get her to a doctor. Then I would seriously discuss this whole contact arrangement. For right now, it is not working. Nobody is happy.

If she didn't want contact with the XMM and you did, and therefore to make peace, she did what you wanted, without being honest, here is the blow up. I feel for you, both of you. But if you love your wife, and if you DID (don't really remember) want contact, and she only gave in to please you, you need to revisit this. Sounds to me like FH hates sharing her daughter with another family. Please please please talk about this. Ask her, "did you feel pressure to have contact cause of me?"

Your poor wife is emotionally worn out. How can she defend herself here? If she had fought on the contact would you have been bitter and angry about raising another mans child? Think honestly here, you don't even have to write it down or say it out loud, but ask yourself did FH agree to contact and all under duress? I think your wife hates sharing the child, I think she would love to give up the child support to get the other people out of her life. But you have her hemmed in with paying "her" bills with the child support. How do affair bills = child support?

Now, you love FH, that we all know. PLEASE CONTACT YOUR PHYSICIAN. Your beloved wife is suffering needlessly. Get her out walking and for gods sake don't even MENTION weight, etc!!! Sure, it may not bother you, but she is wondering WHY DOESN'T IT BOTHER HIM?????? Menopause.....don't even try to get it!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



I have stated on here time and time again to newbies about being totally honest or what is the point. Here we have two families living a life of ******. WHY? Who is benefitting here? NOBODY. Contact, as it is, is not working. XMMW angry, FH depressed, YOU sad, XMM, probably sick of it all too. Grace? IN THE MIDDLE.

Please talk to your dear wife, she is screaming for help and wants out of this situation. Help her!!!!!

Oh, and we were in the pit of despair too, and guess what? We survivied. So will you!!!

Take care.

I have been so worried about pops and fh and Lynn, you have said everything I have tried to say...in such short words, no mincing.

All bs/ws/ow/ please hear this plea.

In most cases, no matter what you try, the dynamics are so tough, it doesn't work, not even and especially for the oc, but all of the adults involved get burned.

I do agree FH needs medical help.

Without it, she's a fish out of water watching life go by.

Total honesty is key to success. Her life is at stake.

I'll pray for you right now pops......



Listen to Lynn.
And me.
If we're wrong post it or have FH do it.

Blessings
Debi

Well well,

Pops, Tig's, Gem, AD, all of the usual suspects have been rounded up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think all should recall that one of Pop's worries was his health and whether he would survive to see Grace become old enough to leave home. Couple that with FH not meeting his needs and his feelings about leaving and it seems to me CS is a MUST.

I agree that things should be taken to court and straightened out. It is unlikely that anything less will sort out some of the issues, and yes it is important to find out why Grace does not want to go to their house.

I am sure OMW has no love lost for FH. I am sure OM would love to not have to pay for CS. I am sure the both of them OM and OMW would love to see Pops drop dead and FH follow along closely.

I am also sure that FH needs to get off deadcenter and start doing something besides worrying about things she cannot control. Which leads me to you Pops.

I think the only progress that can be made is IF you organize your W's problems and begin to help her solve them one at a time. She seems to be overwhelmed with the issues of your older children, perhaps menopause, and very likely guilt and frustration. None of these leads to a good romantic wife, and all of them can lead to a huge mess.

Pops what is your plan? That is key here. What are your plans, you cannot just sit by, you cannot just leave, and you must protect your W, your children and that includes Grace. You need a plan and I think counseling would be a good place to start. Perhaps your W would join you IF this was about the future and not the past.

Just some thoughts. I am sorry to see you back under these circumstances and I do hope that things go better for you.

God Bless,

JL

there has been some very insightful ideas posted back to me here. ladies you all picked up on fh's obvious (hind sight on my part) unhappiness with the contact situation we have set up. i don't want to rehash all that but don't you think that there was a little bit of duress from both sides during that period of poja to come to that decision.

so just for future reference to others who may come here with these circumstances. h & w married 21 years, 7 kids, w turns up preg and has omc 12 days after their 22 wedding anniv. they spend the majority of her pregnancy and about a year after baby is born trying to come up with a solution to make the marriage work. remember that he had NO choice in whether the baby would even be kept in the family (i.e. adoption). so after approx 2 years of supposedly poja'ing they come to the conclusion to keep oc and ask for cs and if om wanted he could take visitation.

hypothetical results,, ww keeps her new c, h and existing family together. bh keeps his w, existing family together and becomes the daddy to a beautiful new baby.

now remember that the bh has to have been working under some level of duress thru his part of this arrangement also. his choices during that period were very limited. so where is the problem? in the fact that someone was not being radically honest during this negotiating period and when they agreed to try this arrrangement with poja.

PLEASE understand that for me this is not about the visitation the money. the reason money is mentioned along with visitation is that om has linked the 2 together.

grace is not acting any different then most kids do in these situations. when i was taking visitations with my oldest there was no reason on God's green earth that he had to be afraid to leave with me for the weekends. yet he was many times crying because he had to leave his mom. 2 - 4 minutes after he was in the car he would settle down and we would have a great weekend. haven't you ever decided to go off to the store alone when your kids were young leaving them with your h? and sometimes those kids would throw a fit because they wanted to be with mommy? it wasn't because your h was doing anything wrong, just that the child WANTED to be with mommy.

the same is true here with grace. leaving home at this young age is insecure for her. she doesn't understand that she is coming back in 2 days. on this last weekend my 14 yo dd saw grace the next day in the car with omw. grace was fine. happy and smiling. when she comes back she is happy and smiling and when asked if she had fun her answer is yes she played with so and so or went to the park, etc.

anywayyyyy,,, if you have ever noticed my spuratic posts to other people on this site i have made mention of fh and my state of limbo. i am not running out of gas because of some constant fight with om. it is with the constant state of limbo in my marriage and unfulfilled en's. i am growing tired of (imho) is a predominantly one sided effort to improve our relationship.

jl again great insight to where this thread is meant to be. how do i keep pushing on after 3 1/2 years of what (TO ME) seems like no progress. the last 5 - 10 years of our marriage have been rocky at best, resulting in an A. i have, if i am lucky 20 - 25 more years left. when can i sit back and enjoy a loving relationship or am i going to struggle for that for the rest of my life. the answer is obvious. i have to try and get her to the dr and into mc. but where do i find the inner strength to keep persueing that goal in this marriage and saying it is time to cut my loses because nothing will ever make her happy? let me tell you i don't believe for a minute that fh will ever take any medication for depression. this is a woman who with a splitting head ache will lay on the bed for hours and sometimes days because she won't take an aspirin.

as far as sf. that is a need but it is not the problem. the needs that i have that are not being met are the need to feel wanted and liked (both emotionaly and physically), a partner that wants to have a fun and happy relationship, accepted for who i am and affirmation (i hope that is the right word) for the things i do do right.

If FH is dealing with depression, that needs to be addressed by a Dr. However, there are many things that can be done to help, today.

1. Walk. A good brisk walk, arms swinging, at a steady pace. Maybe a headset with some music with a good walking beat. It will help settle down what could be a tired mind. Our mind has "self talk" chattering all the time. When people get depressed, they need to shut that off and just "be". Try to get her out walking at least once a day. It can help so much.

2. Headaches? If she doesn't want to take anything (I don't either), she can do stretches. Cross one arm across the chest and pull on it slightly, then the other. Rotate the head slowly around to stretch the muscles. Ice on the neck helps too, as does heat. Anything to get those tense muscles in the head/neck area to loosen up helps immensely.

3. Your needs. VITALLY important for your marriage. She is possibly in a rut. Her marriage hits a tough patch, she cheats and has Grace. Ok. You forgive and stay together. Child is born. Contact issues are dealt with, some issues pop up, etc. Could it possibly be that she only sees her side in this? Is she stuck in a "poor me rut" not realizing how damaging her behavior is to the marriage? If she has been like this for a while, the depression may have been around all along too. There is nothing more comforting then the dull routine of family. If big issues are constantly in the forefront, where is the comfort? Having fun, what do you both like to do? Ski? Movies? Theatre? Sports? Whatever it is that you both like to do as a leisure activity needs to be brought into your life again. Let her know that you have seen no progress as far as your needs are. Does she know what they are? If she is cocooned into herself, wrapped in depression, she may not even realize any of this.

If you can't get her to help herself, and counseling and Dr's don't help, I am so sorry for you. You will have to make a tough decision. But you have fought so hard to keep your family intact, I hate to see it fall apart around you. On the other hand, I hate to see you hurting too.

I guess all I can do for you and FH is pray that you can find a way out.

Maybe each make a list of what is bugging each of you. And a list of what makes you both happy/safe?????

Peace and prayers for you.

Lynn you really should go into marriage counsling, something about your get right to the point and your words calm me when I read them even if it is not address to me, sometime for a few minutes sometime the rest of the day.

[color:"blue"]AARRGGHH my entire post was just erased! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Oh well...guess the revised version will be much shorter!
My DH could have written what I quoted. Thanks for the reminder pops.

FH has to CHOOSE to be happy/content & not be depressed. I've been there, severly. IT's very draining, physically as well as mentally.

Perhaps you can nudge her...invite her to tke a walk, a biek ride, go hiking, have a picnic. Anything to get moving & enjoy the sun & fresh air. We are blessed w/ this CA weather, take advantage of it.

I had to make a choice to just BE happy/content. It does not come naturally to me. But I choose it. She can too....if she wants. THe medication helped tremendously @ first. I no longer need it now.

It's a hard cycle to be lost in. I feel for both of you, pops.

You know her..is there a way you can communicate to her to get her to see she needs to seek help or @ least DO something for herself, to take care of herself? OR a new way of communicating to her? [/color]

Pop's,

I haven't been around for a while good luck with everything. You and FH are in my prayers. I remember why you requested FH get CS and I agree with you. OM should be responsible for his actions and Fh should pay off her debt from the A.

Hi everyone Gem, Tigger, AD and Dawn.

Unsure

Pops, how are things today? I find myself worried about you and FH.