Hi there
I hope everythings okay

Dazed,

Since you are still in Plan A...I have a question.

Why have you not exposed the latest contact with the OM? Not in an angry way, of course. Just a matter-of-fact statement that you know that she has been lying to you and that she has been at the OM's house. You dont have to give facts, or how you know. She knows she was there!

Plan A is NOT hiding the truth. It also is not going off on her or DJing. Just a statement of fact and then continue with your mantra.

Addictions are tough. If you allow her to continue in silence, then she will continue. She must know that everytime she screws up and contacts the OM...that you know. Darkness and silence have no place in Plan A.

Your silence is enabling her.

In His arms.

MM~
I did nicely ask about what she was doing and gave her many chances to come clean.
To be honest I was not prepared to confront her last night about seeing her car there. I really don't think that I could have done it with out blowing up.
I know I can't let this go un-checked but I am not sure what my approach should be.

Gonna have to learn this Dazed. Not just with the affair either!! You are going to have to learn how to be honest with your wife even when you are upset.. You are going to have to learn to control what you say so stuff doesnt come "vomiting" out of your mouth (believe me...I know!!!).

You dont tell her you saw the car there. NEVER give up how you got your intel. You just state matter-of-factly:

"Mrs. Dazed, I know you werent with girlfriends last night. I know that you were at OM's house. As a matter-of-fact, I know this isnt the only time this week you have been over there."

And then??? Well, shut up!! I dont mean that in a derogatory way towards you Daazed. I mean it in a harsh way...one that helps you understand to tell yourself "Dont talk!!" Let her speak after that.

You see, after telling her that you know about the meetings, you will then automatically go into educating her. "You know this is wrong, blah, blah, blah." She will nto be receptive to that at all! It will be an excuse to lash out at you.

Instead, you remain quiet. At first, she will lash out. But when you dont respond in kind, she will begin to hear herself. She will tell herself that she is wrong.

The truth about the fog is that no one can pull a WS out of the fog. The WS has to do it themselves. She is going to have to get this...without you educating her.

But, you must continue to shine the light. That means, when the fog gets thick, you must shine that beacon of truth in there.

So, tell her. Then sit back and let her ride her rollercoaster. This actually should be a lot easier for you, because you dont need to get involved. Just sit back and watch.

As I have said before...the actions of a WS would be funny if this wasnt so serious.

In His arms.

(((Dazed))))

I wasn't ignoring her contact. I was focusing on you. You are not wrong because of your beliefs. You are not wrong. Your perspective is harmful to you and your family right now...twisted torment of being in crisis. Understandable. Human. Not wrong.

I believe you hear me telling you that. I wonder if you hear me saying, "Say this! Be this! Stop doing that!" Well, I admit, I do say "Stop that!"

I accept who you are, Dazed. I am attempting to take hold of the door to your mind, the one that is part way open, hold onto the edge and pull...to widen your choices, your perspective...which will halve your pain, allow breathing room, loving detachment and not engulf you in anger.

I'm behind MM on not asking where she was...but telling her you know where she was. Same with last Sunday and her ditching her mother and sister. State your truth. State what you know. Know what you know. Listen and repeat...hand back her choices to her.

You can do this. We know this pain, remember it well, felt helpless, angry, resentful and sometimes, consumed.

When your WW makes sarcastic comments, say "I believe sarcasm is abuse." And walk away. Do not stand there. No huff or punished...removal, acknowledgement. Bringing reality in front of you.

About the Bday party...eschewing reality a bit, maybe? You are in the middle of a crisis...your marriage is at stake. Your WW said she would do bday...and you are taking it back, yanking it from her hands with your worry, justification; this is you getting in the way of her consequences. You concentrate on your gift for her, the way you assure her, acknowledge her thoughts, feelings and beliefs. This is your part. You want so badly to fix lives, smooth and make them something they aren't right now. I get that. Your DD is innocent...yes. Still, the acknowledgement of what is happening in her is more important than fixing it for her.

You know all this.

LA

Dazed...

You are getting wonderful advice from MM and LA...those two are priceless...so I have nothing to add in those areas...

However, I am great at birthday party and gift ideas, so if Saturday is still up in the air, I would be glad to help you out...I'm not sure if it's just the logistics stuff that you are concerned about...obviously, I would be of no use there...if it is the idea/gift part that you need assistance with, I'm your gal...just say the word... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. Dazed, I didn't forget about you and Mrs. Dazed on the email front...it's just that based upon her last responses to me-statements/no questions...along with her aversion to MB(she knows that's where you got my email address, afterall)Btw, I'm sure that you know this, but the "MB is a cult" is a very common view shared by WSes-don't let that bother you...Anyway, at this point, I just believe that my contact with her could do more harm than good...You both remain in my prayers...

Update:
I sent WW an email asking her to call me when she had some time to talk.

She called shortly there after.
I'm going to kind of summarize the call.
Basically I led into the conversation with a question to get her to tell me her belief of being able to open up to me. I knew how she would answer already. I just wanted to get it out on the table so i could listen and repeat with acknowledgement.
I got out of her that I made her feel on egg shells in fear of saying something wrong. I let her know I understand her belief is hers and did not argue it. I mearly let her know how I felt and how important it is to me and my belief of our great marriage that we be open and hones with each other and be comfortable doing it.
Also offering her the choice to share with me on improving our communication and in our marrige.
She gave me some fog babble about me never changing but did also tell me more about why she is upset, by offering some more comments about her mother telling her she had done nothing for me on Sunday and I was the good one doing everything. She was upset with that and felt that she was being judged and that i did not defend her like she thought i should she joined me to her mothers comment.

Once she came back with how I get mad about everything and just blow up like the old guy she new. Knowing I did make some mistakes the other day, I tied the new Dazed to my reaction of finding her at OM's last night.

I said to her, I know for a fact you were not with your girlfriends last night and you with OM at his place. She said, that is not true. How do you know that... Who told you? I said, I just know it is true and that is all that matters. She said, agian... How do you know... Repeating herself several times. Once she stopped..
I said, that is not the point. She said, are you going to hire a PI and follow me and monitor all my moves?
I said, No... I don't need to. Because the point I feel that will not be needed. I believe it is important that I understand what makes you uncomfortable with being open and honest with me. I feel that is the key here. It is your choice to choose. I choose to not be angry with you. I do not condon contact you know how I feel.
She said, I never get my choice... Someone always makes me do something else. I said, I believe you have a choice just like I do. I choose to believe in our marriage and believe it is your choice to do the same.
I chose to be open with you and call to talk directly to you today about this. The old Dazed, would he have done that or even cared for that matter? I believe not.

She said, I know all about your choice and great marrige talk and how happy we can be and all the same stuff I have heard so many times from you. I said, ok. I say it again because I believe in it like I believe we can have that marriage... I believe it is all our choice. I'm only resposible for my choices as are you for yours. I feel like at the end of the day only ourselves are responsible for our choices and actions.
It's up to you.

She made a few other comments in between the lines, and said she needed to go. Her tone and attitude had softened somewhat by the end of the call.

I did not talk to her the rest of the day until just a few minutes ago when i called to give her an update about our daughter and me getting her tonight from her meeting.

She said she would be home soon and we can discuss dinner later.

Thank you MM, LA, Mrs.W..

I need help to keep on track, with this and I thank you.

Way to go, Dazed!

Can you tell me from your post all the information she gave you about herself?

Remember...consistent actions speak louder than words. I did this, too; kept pointing out how I was changing and really, was again trying to twist my WH's arm into telling me he knew.

If she knows, there's no reason to be in an A, is there? There goes her entitlement, reasons for resentment (past is all she'll have) and lack of respect, right?

See why Plan A works so well? She will struggle against it. You could be God, showing her the promised land and then not letting her into it. Consistent respect, emphasis on choice, listening and repeating, and not DJing in your head or heart, nor outloud, will get you there.

LA

For now, forget dealing with the WS. It's futile. You've got your little daughter to take care of. This is important to you and her and as you can see NOT to the WS. Now you get the alien concept? How rude can a WS be?!??!? Very rude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Take care of you and your D. Go have a fun day for her.

The A issue will be there when you get back and if it's not go celebrate! LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

orchid...can you check my post in the dating section daaaaaaaling.

Brilliantly done! You stated what you knew, and stayed on mantra. you stayed with the "I's" and not the "you's." Very good. Each time you do that, each time you enforce boundaries by being honest about her unacceptable behavior, but at the same time, you dont go off on her and you do discuss what you believe...you make it easier for her to move out of the fog.

Again, Dazed...this is as good as it gets.

In His arms.

Update:

This morning I'm feeling much better about myself as well as my WW.

Wednesday night was big time fireworks. WW was as fogged over as I had seen her in months. She did come home right after work as promised.

It did not take her long to start in on the fog babble. The fog was so thick.
It was all the same old stuff I had heard hundreds of times. She does not love me, never really did, only married out of necessity, blah-blah.
She tried and tried to convince me that our marriage will never work. She tried very hard. Telling me everything she hates about me... Which is everything about me.

She demanded to know how I knew she was with OM. Wanted to know if I seen her...

How did I act.
I think I did the best in this situation I have ever done.
I did not get angry, react, no AO's, no DJ's. Okay I did have a few sarcastic comments but they were not bad.

I just stayed on my mantra. I did the best listen and repeat ever to date. I made sure that I did not educate in my delivery of comments. I not one time started a comment with "you". I also just keep stating that everything was her choice and my beliefs.
I asked many questions as well. Like; What do feel marriage is? How important is being happy?
I also enforced boundries on how she can talk to me. I would not allow yelling at me. I would not allow direct insults like being called for letter words.

This negociation lasted nearly an hour. The odd part of the fog babble conversation is it did not escalate her anger. Actually I talked her down... Normally these talks all escalted her anger into almost a rage.

I feel that is a result of how well I was able to NOT love bust and educate.

I did not back away from the pain points of the affair either.
I made it known how I felt about her choice to not end the affair properly. We discussed, ha ha... Ending the affair and how OM has been allowed to poison us. I made it known that I was not going to accept her continuing the affair and lying to me about it. I went about this by not making "you" statements. I listened to what she said, repeated it back to her and injected my feelings and really focused on her having a choice.

I made it known that I could not fix her. She has the choice to take responsiblity for her self and only herself.

I stated my beliefs and feelings about ending the affair, and sorting out her emotions, and love being a choice.

I had to end the conversation when she called me a string of curse words. I left the room and she remained on setting on the couch with her head in her hands for an hour.

I simply procedded as normal and cooked myself and daughter dinner. I then went down and watched tv for an hour.
I recieved a phone call where I had a chance to sell some car parts. Before leaving informed the WW what I was doing and asked how she felt about me leaving for an hour. I know I don't need permission, but I wanted to demonstrate what I have been talking to her about.

Respecting the each others feelings before acting. In the past I would have just told her I was going out and then I would have came home when ever I finished what ever it was I was doing.

The newer, smarter, educated, Dazed, made sure something like leaving the house was discussed and agreed on before doing.
I know this sounds like a small thing, but to me I felt coming on the heels of a fog talk and then having a chance to show change was good timing.

I did what I said i would do. When I came back in the house, I told her what i sold, how much I got from it and offered it for daughters birthday.

She was setting watching tv and did not say anything.
About an hour later we started getting hang up phone calls from a pay phone. My daughters cell phone would ring once or twice then stop.

After the third call, I was able to set the pay phone number as blocked on the home phone and power off my daughters cell.

WW knew who it was and did not say anything but I could see in her expression she was upset with herself, not me.

I did not invite her up to bed, rather just gave her notice I was going. She slept on the couch.

In the morning I didn't approach her at all. While I was showering she came up and go into our bed. Again I was kind to her but stayed kind of aloof from her.

On my way to work I seen OM again two blocks from our home. I discovered later that he called the house in the moring again after I left.

Today I am changing the phone number. I have been blocking known numbers of his, but he just keeps finding a new number to call from.

I know what the rest of you are going to ask so I am not even going there other than say "I KNOW"... I KNOW... RO...
I have missed the timing before but not today.. Today is the day it will happen...

Once she got to work, she sent me an apology message stating she was under the influence last night and she is sorry and don't know what is wrong with her. Also agreed I was right and she does have a choice and needs to make it.

I stayed pretty light with my responses. No relationship offerings only listen and repeat with injection of some feelings.

She found out later that day that her personalized license plate was missing from our new car. Yes, I believe OM took it. I heard he was really mad about the new car and had made threats to WW if she drove it he was going to do something.

She ordered a new plate for the car. She is really pissed off about it being taken and yes, she thinks OM did it too.

WW emailed me back and forth most of the day. I kept it light and focused on making her feel safe to talk to me. I really feel that is key... Just like LA pointed out. The key to intamacy is feeling safe. Once LA put that into perspective for me it all made sense to me. I can blow away all personal anger, make people feel safe to open up to me by changing my perspective on things... Thanks LA...

Last night OM started calling the phones again around 11.
I blocked more numbers...

WW went to the store and brought home more pictures and things for the house. She was timely and i doubt contact took place. I had to trust her. I am not going to be a prison guard of my wife. She must learn to stand on her two feet and come to me for support. Not me following her around trying to catch her fall.

She was excieted to work on the house again with me. She actually reached out to hold my hand. I was shocked... She had told me 24 hours earlier that she hated everything about me including even touching me made her sick to her stomach....

Her girl friend from work called to check on her. That girl is an angel. WW told me about some of there talks last night. WW tells me that this girl tells her it don't matter if you agree with OM that you are ruining his life by not being with him. You must do what is good for the life of Mrs.Dazed. Do you think being with him is good for Mrs.Dazed? WW says I don't know why is sounds so much better coming from her and not you. I said. I understand totally. I feel I can't tell you that stuff because it make you feel pressured or bad because it is coming from me. Because I respect you and care about your feelings I have refrained from telling you that same stuff.

It was then she reached for my hand.

Today, well... Is another day. I have some work to do.

Gotta run...

I would like advice... Thanks in advance...

Dazed-

I think that you need to follow your plan on getting the RO TODAY!!!

Do NOT wait any longer on this...

And honestly, give some thought to the overall message you're communicating to your wife right now. Your actions and words have clearly communicated that you're willing to change how things were to improve your relationship and marriage...that's good!

But, while your WORDS show that you're not willing to let her keep up this cyle of reconciliating with you, then with OM (over and over and over), your actions haven't given her that message. So far, you've done nothing to truly demonstrate that to her...that you ARE going to draw a line in the sand here.

As long as the situation remains the same, you can fully expect her to continue to respond in the exact same manner she's done over and over so far...if you don't change anything, nothing changes.

This is why I'm of the opinion that you need to change your methodolgy...she needs to see that there IS a limit in how much of this emotional turmoil you're willing to take. She seems to respond immediately every time you start to withdraw from her...I think that you need to stage a MAJOR withdraw from her.

Call it plan B...call it Bob if you like...I truly think that if your wife finally realizes the TRUTH...that she's going to lose if you if this continues...then you're very likely to see the changes you need.

I know MB does not support ultimatums. So, my advice is NOT MB supported...if you don't feel comfortable with that, then feel free to stop reading here.

I still think you need to draw a line, and hold it. Make it clear to her that ANY more contact with OM is the end...and when she violates that (and she will, she's successfully done that every time so far), tell her it's over. Help her pack her bags to go live with OM if that's what she wants, but make sure she undestands that you're no longer going to let her walk all over the boundaries you've set in what you'll accept from her. She might even go to him...but given what all she's done up to this point, I doubt she'd be able to stay with him long before she immediately comes back to you.

If she does come back...BOUNDARIES. With clear, well-defined consequences.

Again, not MB-specific advice. Feel free to take it or not at your leisure.

(((dazed)))

you're incredible.

Please give us that update and tell us you got the restraining order and the phone number is changed. He's getting scarier by the minute -- he's actually invading your property and taking that license plate.

For my daughters 13th birthday party, I took her and 5 of her girlfriends to a little salon. I had them do up-do's, get their nails done, and a facial. THEY LOVED IT!

***But, while your WORDS show that you're not willing to let her keep up this cyle of reconciliating with you, then with OM (over and over and over), your actions haven't given her that message. So far, you've done nothing to truly demonstrate that to her...that you ARE going to draw a line in the sand here.***

I agree completely with this. Your WW is running the show here. She may seem unhappy, but I've been reading your thread for a long time and she is doing exactly what she wants to do -- playing two men off of each other and reveling in the drama and attention. As soon as things settle down, she does something to kick it all up again (like go to OM's house behind your back.)

She will never stop this.
OM will never stop this.
YOU are the only one who can stop this. Unless and until you are willing to go to Plan B, you can expect this to go on and on and on forever.
Mulan

Absolutely tragic........and NO DOUBT there will be the "keep up the plan A" it is working bit.

Rinse....Repeat....Rinse......Repeat.....Rinse.....Repeat...

Dazed,

"It was all the same old stuff I had heard hundreds of times. She does not love me, never really did, only married out of necessity, blah-blah."

Want to try a little O&H? When she says this, you say,

"Until your feelings, thoughts and beliefs change, please don't tell me the same statements you've been making. By doing this, I believe you are not being truthful but redundant. That you intend me harm. Is there something you're not telling behind the statements you are?"

Having read the rest of your post...my heart is applauding you. You're finding your power, Dazed. You're finding that Plan A isn't being a wet blanket...it is being strong, brave, safe, and true to yourself. For yourself. I think you're liking you a lot more.

Now, speaking of Plan A...what about re-exposure? Each contact would mean re-exposure, right? Just wondered what you thought about that.

I'm with changing your number and RO...without hesitation. Won't make you safe, but because you are safe, will add to your changes. Have you put a time limit on your fresh Plan A? Think a couple of weeks and then Plan B?

What did you decide about bday tomorrow?

How do you like being interviewed about your amazing life?

((((Dazed))))

Being safe goes both ways...safe for others, safe for you. I didn't hear a single self DJ in there...what's it like inside you now?

(Oh, and I'm on vacation, so know I look forward to catching up with you in a week, 'k?)

LA

plan B..or plan Bob...or anything that begins with letter b is screaming at you to do the right thing.

sorry, but she engages when YOU DISENGAGE...she chases and pursues you when you aren't around.

I swore I would not post advice to you on your threads again...but will say I am back to give my .02

and only that.

last post from me on this thread...

my favorite quote:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting the outcome to BE DIFFERENT. Einstein

she is doing as she pleases.

there is no repurcussions to her behavior. nothing but worried about how you come across when you show her and reveal to her somehow that you think she lied?

come on! she's playing you both...still...and loving it.

sad but true.

and her behavior towards your dd is still showing her head up her [censored]...how crude and how mean about ignoring dd's birthday? how horrid is that? i can't imagine missing my ds's parties...or planning them...her head is again totally up [censored]..

however, i think IT NEVER REALLY CAME OUTTA THAT ORIFICE IN THE FIRST PLACE dazed...false recovery big time.

and you know what to do...get the cajones to do it.

A quote from your last post is as follows:
________________________________________________________
I made it known that I was not going to accept her continuing the affair and lying to me about it.
________________________________________________________

What are you going to do? You have let it known by her actions that you will do nothing. She is not worried about what you will do. She knows she can spit in your face and you will not act.

You have not gotten a RO or held her accountable for her actions or anything. I know you have bent over backwards to show her your love but has she returned it?

I could come back in a year and you would still be having the same problems. As long as you let her go see OM with no consequences why don't you make him meet all of her needs and protect your daughter from him?

I don't know if it is possible to get back your marriage but I know you have tried. You cannot make someone love you if they choose not too.

Your WW knows she can treat you any way she wants. She knows she can do anything and you will beg her to stay with you. Until you get enough confidence to not be a doormat you are doomed. This is what I ment about the kind of woman you would get back. You have gotten back the abusive woman that I feared you would. Too bad for you and your daughter.

I just wish you would at least protect your daughter. I am sorry I won't post again I just felt I had to say it. I hat it when good decent people are treated like this.