Dazed,
Its a beautiful letter. It lets her know EXACTLY where things stand.

As far as boundries go -- what EXACTLY are yours? How much more time does she get to decide? What are the next actions either way? (I just want to help you think the rest of this out....) Without those, its just another plea.

You MUST follow through.

She shouldn't have an unlimited amount of time to wallow back and forth. How long does she get? Can she come back a day or two later and change her mind? What EXACTLY is your boundry on this?

If she chooses you, what is your plan to separate them completely and permanently? I honestly believe when the two of you left the courthouse after dismissal you had a beautiful opportunity to implement a very serious separation plan. I mentioned it earlier. This situation, because of the unstableness of OM requires something pretty serious in terms of preventing her from contact. I'm not kidding when I say quitting her job and getting her out of town for a couple weeks. Her job means NOTHING in the greater scheme of things.

If she chooses him (and I TRULY, TRULY believe that would be a huge mistake on her part which she will come to know soon...) what are your next steps? I assume you will re-establish primary custody arrangements?

How is your daughter doing through all of this? I remember my daughter as a 13 year old. Gosh they need their mom's so much at that age. What rotten timing for your WW to being going through this selfish stage.
But remember Dazed....Dads are equally important right now. I had a therapist tell me that fathers are actually MORE important when a daughter is this age and learning so much about crushes and relationships and how to deal with boys. I sure hope you're talking to her about all of this. She can handle it. I hope she knows your values and how you are standing up for your marriage and family. There is so much in this situation for her to learn from and admire you for.

Please keep talking to us to flush out the details of your plan.

HUGS....

dazed. please remember that your wife is in an addiction. listen to frank and others who stress that. this is the same thing as having cancer or other sicknesses. you wouldn't give up then would you. the om is a man who cant be trusted. i think your wife is acting out of fear for her life and daughters life so she appeses him and talks to him. she loves you and wants you. the om is losing this battle and he knows it. that is why he is so hateful and controlling. you have to be the steady force to end this addiction. i think frank has shown you how mcuh you have hurt this affair by your love and strength. don't give up now. your wife cannot be let go to the other man. your duaghter needs her and you need her. she cant help what she is doing now. please reread the principlals that talk about that hear and talk about addiction. this addiction is ending. the affair is ending. you cant push her away now. she needs to know you are here for her to continue to recovery of your marriage. dont let others who have failed at their lifes and marriages lead you astray. frank and lexxy and mortarman and mrsw have helped you with the plan a and you need to do this still. steve or william harley would not approve of you giving her ultimatums or demands. please know that you may need to negotiate the ending of the affair. demands and disrespectful judgements and ultimatums will not do it. unconditional love and compassion will do it. not anger and bitterness as is advocated by many others here.
bless you and your wife and daughter. continue the fight against this terrible om and evil. your wife will see you as her hero someday.
smolina.

Dazed,

I fully agree with Lexxxy... it's a beautiful letter. I also think this is a good "next step" for you.

You mentioned two plans in case she goes either way...this is good. Your wording got me a little curious though... "I will have two plans." Have you actually thought about those plans yet? If not, let us know so we can help you. It's one thing to have a few ideas bouncing around your head and another thing to have something really mapped out (believe me, I know!)

You have been wonderfully loving to your W... it's her turn now to step up to the plate. Let us know how things went with the letter.

KM

Also...

Good job telling your W you feel sorry for her and her situation. That was HUGE when my H said that to me...

Also, do you call OM by his name? I don't know if you saw Orchid's thread a while back... it was a good one. I'm curious because you wrote (him) in your letter... not sure if you had his name there or not...

Anyway, my H called OM "that guy." He NEVER called him by his name. This really worked for me... it devalued him without LB, and portrayed him as the outsider that he really was....

I only have a short minute to comment.

KM~ I never have called the puke by the name he goes by. To me he is nothing that is deserving of respect so I never show him none. I never have called him by his birth name to my wife. I'm glad to hear there is some one that supports that. I told him to his face one day I would show him the same amount of respect he has shown my family...NONE. Refering to him as the other guy is what I usually call him. To me MAN does not even fit... Piece of $hit is closer...lol

The WW was home by 5:30. She was very civil and polite to me. No emotional response. She was very somber and quiet tonight. She is now sleeping.

I did think about three options.. 1) No choice... 2) Choose no contact... 3) Choose him...

I figure this will get pushed to a head by OM wanting contact. This is the week end when he usually is out and stalking...

Obviously I will have to discuss the next step with her provided which of the 3) she chooses....

I do have a thought out plan for each possible choice...
I will try to come back tomorrow and share... Thanks everyone...

QUOTE:
Dazed,
Its a beautiful letter. It lets her know EXACTLY where things stand.
________
Thank you! I really appreciate your support!

QUOTE:
As far as boundries go -- what EXACTLY are yours? How much more time does she get to decide? What are the next actions either way? (I just want to help you think the rest of this out....) Without those, its just another plea.
________
My boundry is I cannot tolerate NO EFFORT on her behalf to end her affair. No effort for no contact = me no longer waiting. Also, no longer will I tolerate a blast from the past. No more past failures being thrown in my face as justification for her affair. I feel we have covered this 10 million times. I accept what I did was wrong and I have made changes and are still making changes to prevent that from ever happening again. Any more justifcation for the affair by beating on our past is the end of our conversation. I will simply tell her something like what I just wrote above and tell her that I understand her fears and that she is scared. However, I cannot have the past rubbed in my face. If it is constructive and positive, I will be happy to talk about our past.

That is the two boundries that I spoke of in the letter.

I did not establish a set time for her to report to me on it. I made it clear last night that i was not going to back down about ending the dysfunction and placing our marriage second to another guy. I told her last night that I simply cannot continue in such dysfunction and being suffocated by her protection of another guy and not ending the affair.

I want her answer tonight. I understand Lexxxy... If she is given an inch she will be looking to take a mile. I see that. Maybe right or wrong of me to push this, but I really need to move one way or another. Of course I would like her to choose to work on no contact together with me, but I can't survive like this either.

She is really screwed up right now... Friday night she seemed ok, however I felt there was something going on in the back ground. Kinda superficial you know.

I learned from her girl friend that she was going to go to work Saturday morning from 8-10... hmmmm I had not heard of that. Saturday morning she wakes up and tells me she is sick and can't go to work and calls in sick.
At 10AM I was setting in her work parking lot while she was home in bed. Guess who pulls in the parking at 10AM? Yeap, OM... I waved at him as he drove on by.

So it is obvious why she became sick... When I get home, she tells me that she wants to take daughter and her friend out of town for the day. I did not have any problem with this. It was obvious why she wanted to leave town. To me I see it as another broken promise to see OM and not wanting to deal with it. I figure it's good she choose to be with DD rather than see OM.

When she came home Saturday she was in good spirits and wanted to show me her items she purchased. She was nice and friendly until taking a call from another wonderful former family member of mine. My dads ex-wife... A real piece of crap... I about $hit when I found out who she had talked to... WOW... This dumb ****** cheated on my dad with dozens of men and has recently just left her last husband because she was cheating on him.

Needless to say that after that one hour phone call her head was WAY up her butt. She slept on the couch Saturday night and Sunday night.

Sunday she laid around the house all day in PJ's feeling sorry for herself. She was cold and distant all day. Sunday evening I talked to her about the letter. It was just another replay from her. Bash me for the past, use our past as the reason why she can't move forward, denied that her affair had any bearing on her feelings towards me.

I was as tough on her as I ever had been since kick off of plan A. I did not back up or accept any of her babble. She started to get angry and try to bully me down, but I never stood down. I did not accept any insults or bull $hit about why her affair has nothing to do with our lack of marrige. I stated to her how much she has hurt me. That I was not okay with our relationship. I KNOW that she has been seeing him and contacting him and that I cannot continue to even be civil with her I am hurt so badly. This is killing me and I can't accept her NOT even trying to end the affair. She was pissed off. Tried to say that we are just not working out and that she tried... I started laughing at her... I summarized her lack of effort to try. I let her know how I felt about how she has placed our marriage, herself, our daughter, and myself all behind hurting his feelings. I am done with that. I will be patient and understand as long as there is effort to end the affair. Until the affair ends I will never be convinced or accept that she tried, and (HE) has not poisoned us from ever reaching real recovery... I was stern with her and did not back down on anything. Many completely drove the conversation and it really pissed her off. Until now she had been able to be on the offense with most of these relationship talks. NOT THIS TIME.

When I could see that is was basically a pissing contest and I was becoming emotional, I left the room.

She came to me about 20 minutes later very calm. I was really calm as well. She asked me; Do you think you want to stay together and live in dysfunction when you deserve to be loved? I said, NO I don't. That is why the letter. I'm done living like this. This dysfuction where we cannot even enjoy life. Something simple like eating a meal as a family in public takes a back seat in order to protect another guys feelings... I cannot set back and act like this is okay with me. I just don't see any effort being made to protect our marriage and give it a chance to even try recovery. I'm done.

She accused me of being a liar about my letter. Said, she new I would not bow out respectfully. Called me a liar again. I pulled a copy of the letter out and read it to her again. I asked her to tell me where it is a lie to state my feelings and beliefs.

I said, the respectfully bow out mean I will NOT chase you. If you think that a life with out me is the best thing for you it will crush me but I will respect your choice. I will not come looking for you, call you or nothing. It kills me to be living this way. I love you so much that I cannot allow us to continue like this.

That is kind of a quick summary of some of our "talk" sunday.

This morning she wanted to lay down in our bed. She asked me what is wrong with her. I let her lay down however, I got up and left the room.

___________________
It is obvious that she is going to try to wiggle out of making a choice. I think I'm going to have to ask for an answer. As it stands I made it clear that I will not continue with any contact and no TOGETHER effort to work on no contact.
I told her I want no contact to be a team effort. Where we both do this together and make our marriage the first priority and protect it with every means possible.

I let her know that I appreciate her effort to write him a letter and how hard this is to do. I let her know that for it to work we have to do it together. If it takes police and court orders to protect our marriage then that is what WE must do to give you a chance to heal and see if WE have a chance for US to work.

I'm not sure if she is going to go this route. I really think she did not expect me to be so stern about this. I expected her to push me to see if I'm real or not.

If she does not go along with NO CONTACT plan then I will persue custody and filing for a divorce.

She asked to talk about divorce last night and I had to stem that talk as well. I told her again that I would not set down with her and put my arm around her and wish her luck while making the biggest mistake of her life.

I will not discuss details of how to divorce you because it hurts me so much that you would give up on us with out really exploring what could be. However, I know that things cannot go on as is either. I asked her if she thought about how everyone she knows has changed there attitudes that she is home and in the marriage. She got mad saying that I guilted her into coming home because of all the stuff that daughter was doing and saying and how everyone else was treating her. I asked if she thought that was fake? Did she think that would not happen again?

If she chooses to go no contact I have a plan.
1) WE write a no contact letter.
2) She will give me passwords for all her email.
3) She is to forward me any email from him with out opening.
4) If he calls she is to tell him to honor her letter. The police will be notified of any addition efforts of his to contact her.
5) She is to agree and sign a PFS.
6) We are to work out an emergency plan for her when she leaves the house without me. This way there is no surprises and we can deal with his stalking and put an end to it.

The wife let daughter have a girl friend over Friday night. I was not very happy about this, because she did not talk to me about it first. Just another bull $hit move power move by the wife. She doesn't like the fact that daughter approves all plans with me first. I think she was also wanting to avoid talking to me about the letter.

BTW~ DD did not make it onto the cheer leading team. She was really upset Friday night, so I think having a friend over helped with that.
Daugther knows nothing about what is going on with me and the WW... We have not had any arguements or problems out in the open. The enviroment at home has been safe for our daughter. There has just been a big lack of togetherness with all three of us out side of the house. Daughter has been doing much much better lately. Her grades in school are back up to mostly all A's. All though still stuborn and being a normal 13 y.o. girl she is really doing well.

She has added some new friends that seem really nice. Some old friends have also returned, although not as strong as before.

I asked the WW last night if she had taken a minute to think about how well daughter has turned around after hearing we were not divorcing?

I know things are not NORMAL in our family. We have to move forward.

I understand my WW is addicted. I know this... Let's get real... How can anyone help an addict when they resist help? They have to want help... Right... I will do everything in my power, go to the ends of the earth to help my WW end her addiction, but only if she wants it.

I know people who are drug addicts. I really believe that they must want to be saved in order to be saved.
I think all addictions have the same type of characteristics. There must be a benefit for stopping the habit. I have loviningly tried to get my WW to stop. She is just to fragile to do it with out motivation.
She is not remorseful about her affair. She still justifies it by blaming me for the past. She still refuses to acknowledge my changes and love i have shown her.

Questions:
1) How much time should she be given and should I give her the limit I have set for myself for her?

2) If she chooses to test me. Do I file for a divorce and full custody. Before then I would need to re-align ducks. Gather information and more money for the cost.

3) If she chooses to agree to no contact, is the list requirement list to much or not enough?

4) What about suggestiong to her getting us into a MC this week? Obvious a talk with SH would be good for me, what about setting up a join MC session. I feel I need to do this.

5) Should I propose the MB week end to her again?

More later, I have to run...

smolina -


I may have misread your statement....but...negotiate to end an affair? Negotiate how? Somethings in life are not negotiable. Are you suggesting something like "Well, if you'll gradually break off contact over 3 months, we can go forward?" I don't think that will work.

Yes, unconditional love and compassion play a huge role in ending an affair, from what I've read here on these forums. But so does having boundaries. Dazed has made it very clear to his wife that NC is a boundary that he will no longer tolerate being violated. I don't see how that is a LB, DJ, or anything else wrong. Harley himself says that the BS cannot end the affair - only the affairees can do that.

It is simply Dazed saying enough is enough. He is not willing to allow another man in their marriage. To me, that's a perfectly understandable position to be in, and he's been very patient in waiting for his wife to make a decision. Ultimately, it's a decision that she has to make. He cannot make it for her - he can only make decisions for himself and for his daughter, and it appears he is doing that.

Dazed -

I'm not as familiar with your situation as others who have posted on your thread, though I have read parts of it.

I know you've gotten a lot of advice, sometimes conflicting. That's the nature of forums, I think. A lot of times people who have been where you are will urge you to do things that you are just not ready for, even though you may reach the point where you are (I've had similar experiences).

To me, what you're telling your WW is simply that if she's unwilling or unable to make a choice between you and your family and the OM, then you will remove yourself as an option. That's an incredibly hard thing to do, and takes a lot of strength.

I hope your wife wakes up soon to what she stands to lose. Hang in there - whatever the outcome, you're on your way to being a much better and happier person.

I think one thing that is lacking is a road map as to just how recovery would look. The path toward reconcilliation. Your wife may need to see that it is possible to fall back in love with you. A kind of love that will be much richer that the 'love' she had with the OM.

The road map includes spending 15 hours a week together in undivided attention, agreeing not to be the cause of each other's unhappiness, radical honesty...basically the rules of protection/four rules for a successful marriage.

She may not be ready for the MB seminar at the end of this month. She may be too foggy and addicted still to be able to receive the seminar contents objectively. She may be ready for the one in June, depending on what she chooses.

You need to keep the stricter list and she'll need to display an attitude adjustment or at least a more sincere commitment to end her A for life and work on reconciliation with you. She is still way to foggy and addicted. She still may have to leave...I hope it all works out...it just may not be in your timing.

Allow all the pieces to fall into place...or not. If she chooses to leave to be with OM then wait 2 yrs. Then go all the way with DV and seek custody. She will then need to feel the consequences of her actions in full. Or if you have to DV right away then wait 2 yrs before you really move on with your life...like date etc. That will help you preserve your love and be there when the A does run it's course and die a natural death. It is said that only 3 to 5% of A's last.

She is once again paralyzed. Hence the wandering around in PJ's all day, and calling in sick to work. She is again trying to provoke you into deciding for her. And thats ok. She needs to know these games aren't going to stall things forever. She is still going to be forced to make a choice. And that not making a choice is a choice too. It is forcing you to take action. She would stay on the fence forever if you let her.

Right now, you have a HUGE advantage. She is actually avoiding him.

When she is talking about "she knew you wouldn't bow out respectfully" she is again testing you. Trying to see if she can manipulate you into a friendly cordial divorce. Smash that image! You will NOT be friends later. You will NOT even speak to her. She will NOT have the respect and friendship of friends and family. She will NOT be mom-of-the-year.

She needs to re-feel that pain. Pain motivates.

Make it clear what she is choosing.

If she chooses OM, you will be 100% out of the picture. She should be prepared for war on divorce and custody. You will not be her friend.

Paint the picture of "indifference." (you know that old saying that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference...) No screaming, yelling, hateful outbursts.
Let her know you will simply wrap up the relationship with her, and she will be out of your life. You will move on. AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY WITHOUT HER. Let her know she is not the source of happiness for you.

I think you have done a WONDERFUL job of selling the marriage side of the story. What have you done to anti-sell the divorce side?

If I were you, I would begin your talk tonight about making it clear what she is deciding between (without giving OM any part of this story...)
She can choose the marriage -- and reiterate your points aobut moving forward together.
Or she can choose divorce -- and make it clear how you picture the darkness between the two of you.
If she refuses to choose, then tell her that there is a point in time where not choosing means the other person needs to take action to protect themselves from the damage being done to them. And that time has come.

more later....

Dazed......


I only have one bit of advice for you... CALL STEVE HARLEY and set-up an emergency call for TODAY if you can... talk to him OR Jen....

You are tired brother.... you are starting to demand educate and argue again.... This will only get the same in return.....

See how she reacts? When you argue she sees.... "We will NEVER work out" She gets calm because She "Knows now she's right about this" "He's going back to the same ole Dazed"

CALL THE HARLEYS......
You don't want to undo all your great work here in one week....

You said all that is needed to be said in the letter..... The first one that talks LOSES.....

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

AND GET THE RO........NOW..... DON'T WAIT FOR HER APPROVAL.....

,,

Dazed-

I've pretty much ended my posting on this site for a number of reasons, but I thought I'd take a moment to respond to your thread.

I agree that you need to give clearer guidlines on what will happen when/if she agrees to reconcile and takes these other steps. MC/IC should be listed, and if you have some other specifics (like the 15 hours/week) you might consider listing them...but don't make it appear un-realistic either.

I personally agree with what you've done...this is exactly what I've suggested repeatedly. MM's reminder to me of what plan B is supposed to be was well taken...because THIS is more what I was referring to. A 'line in the sand' if you will...along with clear repercussions of what will happen if she doesn't get her head out of her tuckus. I did pretty much this exact same thing when MY WW was doing this.

From me last week:

From Dazed this weekend:


Can I please please say "told you so"??? LOL.

I disagree with Frank about lovebusts -- there are none in the conversation you described, Dazed. Simply calling BS on her BS. Nothing in MB'ers says that if the WS says "oh look at the lovely purple duck" that you have to say "yes dear"
There is nothing wrong with pointing out their lies and you don't have to agree with everything she says. In fact, it is important NOT to. Keep reiterating the right morals and values.

In addition to what I said earlier, when you ask her tonight for her decision I would also include:
"do you want to be the kind of woman that has a SLEAZY affair and leaves her husband and daughter for another man?

Or do you want to be the kind of woman that does the right thing and truly tries everything she can to provide her daughter with a loving home and a positive image of marriage?"

Make the difference between these two choices as STRONG as you can; Right and Wrong/Black and White.

according to Dr. Harley:

Excellent advice, Lexxxy...as usual.
...........................................................

This is just what I told my WH as he was asking if we could be friends if we DV.d...amicable DV.

Have you evaluated what EN's OM meets for your WW? I assume that a romantic relationship is a big one...maybe recreational...these are things you weren't meeting and she hasn't allowed you to let you meet even in your plan A. She has to also be willing to meet your EN's. You aren't even close to that.

I hope you can make it clear that it is really possible to fall back in love with you...big time. You really are the attractive alternative to OM.

I was listening to Dr. Willard Harley's radio program today (it was a repeat). He very much believes in using plan B as stated in SAA. This is a good opportunity...you're starting to feel pretty stressed with this ride.

Moreover, I would say Dazed it losing love for his WW, although he might state differently. From his account of this week-ends conversations, indications are his love bank is rapidly dwindling.

BS Losing Love for WS = Plan B

Good advice folks.

Dazed has some decisions to make. I still have not seen him enforce the boundaries. I do see him beginning to LB and lose patience. The "Plan B" bullpen is startign to warm up. But I'd wish you would put those boundaries in place, Dazed, before you have to go to Plan B. You have never gotten the order. You dont try to enforce the boundary of her NOT seeing or calling the OM.

In His arms.

QUESTION / RAMBLE

Who is a lawyer or legal person on this sight?
Why does my lawyer blow me off about getting restraining orders? He tells me that I could not get a PFA and probably not a PFS. Then he tells me he is going to do some work and call me back, and nothing.

I talk to the police and they tell me to have a lawyer draw up a protection order and call them each time he is bothering me or my family. Which I have done several times and the police have reports of talking to him.

I have the papers for a PFS from the court house. I don't know if i could even get it... What is the big damn deal...

Everyone acts like this is just some easy drive to the local police station to obtain. If so why is such a pain in my @ss to get help with this?

What else can be done? What other suggestions are there for boundry enforcing? I have called the police, my lawyer, changed my phone numbers. I can suggest my WW do things to help, but I can't take her by her ear and make her..

I am frustrated at this entire thing. Not to sound like a cry baby, but damn!

ADDRESS OTHERS:

Brokenbird: Thank you. That is exactly where I'm coming from. I have not given her a drop dead date for the answer. It is true. I cannot tolerate another guy in our marriage. That is my boundry.

TRIX: Perfect Insight.... I was thinking the exact same thing... ROAD MAP is the perfect way of saying it. This is why I wanted to suggest that we both talk to an MC ASAP....
We need a plan for US... We are stuck in a circle right now and need a clear direction... WE NEED A PLAN that we TOGETHR can see.... Thank you!
I will work on getting an appointment set up. I think I will just get an appointment and give the WW the date and time. Any objections with just doing in approach?

LEXXXY: I think your assesment of her being paralyzed Sunday was right on. She was stuck not able to move.
Your comment about an amicable divorce was right on too. She asked me if I was ready for an amicable divorce. I told her that is was all I could do to love her enough to let her go. I told her, Because I love you so much it would be just brutal for me to discuss divorce and then be friends afterwards. She said, well why not? I said because I love you and believe in our marriage. There is no way I could ever wish you luck with some other guy. I love you as my wife.
I guess I went to fare when I said this is not like Gilmore girls and we all go have coffee at the dinner on the week ends. It would destroy me so much to lose you I don't know if I could even see you with out pain. There is no way I do an amicable divorce or even discuss it for that matter.

TRIX:
As for emotional needs. Well let's see... She has not ran off with him for ahile now. She has been in the house living with me for months.
The last big emotional need left is sex. Plan and simple... It is a major issue. She always comments about not being able to have sex with me. It is the one thing left.
I think I have been able to meet the others of hers to a degree...

Her meeting mine.... Well that is not happening... Very little... This is why I'm becoming frustrated..

Gotta run, more later...

Wish I could help in your state, Dazed. 20 years ago I got an RO on my neighbor...I went to civil court, and when the judge was finished with the docket, they called me forward and he asked why I wanted an RO, and I told him...the chanting, pounding, cursing, calling children's services on me and the police...all without action because there was nothing actionable, just harassment. I said I was in terror for my life and my children's lives.

He wrote it out right there, handed me a 30-day RO and told me to pay the sheriff to serve it that day. If the harassment didn't stop, then come back and find out about suing her for harassment.

Same day, getting home, she got out and cleaned the paint she'd sprayed on my windows, the sidewalk, stopped all harassment. Done.

Think things have changed? That was in Boulder, Colorado...not a small town or a huge city. I dunno. I was stunned how effective it was. Worth the $25 to pay to serve her by a Sheriff. I was in tears while I did it, shaking, from fear of being thrown out of the courtroom for being a nut, to being jailed for being one.

My story. To realign, focus on meeting your own...for admiration, attention, appreciation, affection (self hugs and letting yourself know you're there for you)...you know what I got. Don't have to give it again. I know you know.

LA

Call the country attourney's office..... I think I also have an e-mail address or you can get it from the counties web-site. I asked a question once and was answered almost immediately and I put in calls before and got good attention.....