Dazed,
I'm sorry you find yourself in this mess. I admire your strenght and commitment to your marriage and family.

Just keep in mind that Plan B does not mean that you have to file for D at this time. There is plenty of time for that.

I've been around a while and following your saga, I've also been through much the same unbelievable drama during my own ordeal. My story is around here somewhere, first I was "learnin", then I was "shugah". It was craziness, sheer craziness! I couldn't believe it was the same man I had been married to for 18 years!

Infidelity is messy, complicated, PAINFUL, crazy stuff!
If anyone is shocked or surprised by any of what they see here, then they obviously haven't been around long enough!

WS's aren't called Aliens for nothing!

And like you, I heard all the same things from people who thought my WH was beyond help, he was in as deep as it gets..."run, run as fast you can, and never look back", they said. But that was mostly my family and some of my "friends".

In the old days, I came to MB to find support of my marriage, and found people who really understood how it feels to still love someone who is hurting you so much. Seldom did I hear the disrespect that I see so often these days and one of the reasons I don't post.

Oh sure, there were times I didn't agree with someone, but never did things disintegrate to the point I see these days. We seemed to understand that we were often fragile, broken souls looking for strength, and for the most part we took and gave our 2x4's with compassion,understanding and respect.

Here at MB and later at another site, I found a plan, a program, something different from the usual advice I found on the "outside", where Divorce was the only option. I learned about the dynamics of Affairs, the addiction, the fog, and somehow that helped, a little.

I got some great advice on setting boundaries and Mortarman was of my many supporters then!

Even when things were at it's craziest, MM would somehow see something that I couldn't...he would tell me he just didn't think it was "over", despite WH's claim to the contrary. He and others would help me get back on the Plan B wagon whenever I fell...and I fell often!

Note: For a long time I had a RO on WH and OW was included in that, she could have no contact with our children! Talk about WH being ANGRY!

Ahh, but despite it all I tucked away a small piece of the love I felt for my "H" as I went about the business of setting boundaries,living my life, taking care of our children and then finally 2 years later, divorcing.

My story doesn't end there however.

By the time we divorced, WH was broken, broke, angry, a complete shadow of the man he once was, the A in it's final death throes. We barely spoke, and when we did see each other at a school or sports event, it quickly deteriorated....he was basically living in his car by this time after moving back to our state in search of work....our oldest S took him in...

Within a few months of the D he finally had the "long time coming" break down! He hit bottom emotionally. It wasn't pretty.

It was then that I realized I had a choice to make. I could turn my back and walk away and say, "good, you are finally getting what you deserve" or I could reach out with compassion.

I made the only decision I could live with. I reached out and pointed him in the direction of help. He accepted it, was appreciative and humble and within weeks was beginning to put his life back together....even visiting the family counselor that the kids and I had been seeing.

We started spending time together, he'd come to the house for visits, or we'd meet for lunch. To repay me for some financial help he spent the spring and summer staining the house. He began to reconnect with the kids and I, and began taking pride and interest again in the home we had built...it was a start. To what, we weren't sure...but it was a step in the right direction whether or not we recovered as a couple. Our youngest child was thrilled and our older children began to heal. It was during this time I recieved many tearful and sincere apologies for what he had put us through and the revelation that he wanted to come home many times during the 2.5 yr. A, but he thought it had gone too far and he had to prove that he had made the right decision, despite the fact that 6mos. into the A, he knew he had made a big mistake. How many times during the A did he tell me and everyone he knew that he was happier than he had ever been? Too many to count!

Soon we became a couple again and we've never looked back. We continue to work hard at our recovery and there is still a long ways to go. But a year ago I would never have believed we would have come this far! "Despite the D, we are committed to our M"!! As absurd a concept as that may seem to some! Maybe someday we will make it official...we talk about it....our family continues to heal...

So anyways, I just felt it was time to share my story with you. You still have a difficult road ahead of you and many decisions to make. But know this...it IS possible to have a good life in Plan B....you heal, you laugh, you cry....you learn to live with out WW and realize that it's ok...and as for WW...well, she'll eventually figure it out, the hard way unfortunately....and when she does, will you be ready?

Whether or not you recover as a couple, it will be important that you are in a good place when it comes time to heal your family. You are still the lighthouse for your family whether or not your marriage recovers. Right now you can only concentrate on you and your D...

From what I've seen so far you have what it takes! Good luck to you. There are happier days ahead!

Great Post Shugah! A very inspirational read!

Mrs. W

I second that, thanks Shugah, you've given me a shimmer of hope, I missed your posts on my threads, come back soon.

Shugah,
Beautiful....just beautiful.... God Bless you both... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />




I was here then too... and so many have left here like LOSTVA... SHEBA....and a few others because of the changes you mentioned.... (I don't know if you remember them??) I almost fell off my computer chair when SHEBA told me.. "Just because you guys are divorced..... doesn't mean it's over..." Even in the nightmare... we found a way to have some fun here didn't we? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> And we were about love....even for the one hurting us the most.... ahh.....well...

Anyway....just wanted to thank you for your post....

GO DAZED...... GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS... FRANK

Update:
Today we had a huge argument about about no contact or I'm done and she needs to leave.
She left. Was suppose to pack her stuff up and leave while me and daughter was gone for several hours.
She left but with out taking anything...

Daughter has three friends over tonight. I told WW today she could come get her things in the morning before the kids get up.

Things got ugly... I was very tough on her and told her if she leaves I never want to see her again. A lot of fireworks. Not really any plan A today. Just here is the deal... NO CONTACT with him or I'm out of this three way...
A lot of sex talk came up again...
A lot of her trying to blame me for her affair and me as the reason she can't love me and be here. A lot of bashing Dazed like normal.

I would not let her take control of the discussion or control of the situation. It really pissed her off. She made the statement "why do you call all the shots and make all the rules"? I would not cancel daughters sleep over so she could continue to hold our family hostage to her affair.

The kids came over, we had a great time... I took several places and we had a great time... Nice place to eat, a basketball game, a carnival, the mall, cruising around in the car, and even got kicked off go-karts for ruff driving... The girls all had a great time.

Me I feel bad about being so hard on her... I did not leave her with no good taste that is for sure. I was tough as ****** on her... Very tough...

She left me a note that reads:

Dazed,
I do truly hope that someday you will finally find some happiness - Lord knows I never makd you happy. Sorry for being a horrible mother and such a slut and a ******...
_________________

I have to decide what I do now.
With out an effor for no contact from her I want her out. I would like her to leave.
She does not have her stuff with her so she is not completely out. I have to decide 1) Talk to her about taking a 30 day break. She leave and we have not contact with each other and after 30 days we figure out how to proceed. Kind of a arranged Plan B for us. This might keep her from running to the court house Monday morning.
2) I sprint to the court house Monday morning and file.
I think with her out for a month, if we file from there I would have a great case for winning full custody.

I need to get RO in place Monday morning before anything else I feel...

The other tricky thing is getting her actually out of the house. I fear that she will come home tomorrow and plop down on the couch knowing that custody will be hard for me to win with her here in the house.

I think I'm better off getting away from her and letting OM fail at all the dreams he has promised. Before I don't care if she ever comes home I need to get away.

I'm tired and overwhelmed with work and everything as is. This drama I can't handle correctly right now. I just lack the patients and compassion to love her even when she breaks me in half.

Today really was hard for me... I made it very hard on her and I was not nice to her. I feel bad about that.

Don't feel bad. Discipline like good medicine isn't meant t/b easy or taste good. It is meant to heal.

You and your family should never be subjected to any A related activities w/ or w/o drama.

You stood up for your family and she left a note to make you feel guilty....DON'T FEEL GUILTY.

If you want to give her 30 days fine. If you want to pack her stuff up (plastic bags, boxes, suitcases.... your choice), that's up to you. She choose to leave her family for an A. Let her. She isn't your W or mother of your children right now. She is not of this world. Keep your family safe.

How are your children? What do they know?

L.

Thank you Orchid~
Daughter knows she is not home obviously.
Also know why... Wife tried to tell her that I was throwing her out. I corrected her by telling daughter no is throwing anyone out. This is her choice to leave.

WW got very anger for exposing her to daughter. WW yelled some crap about me sexually abusing her for years. I told daughter to please go outside. Then I told WW she was a worthless human being and how could any mother act like that? I asked her if she felt really good about her self now. That was my last words to her.

(((((Dazed)))))...

Know that you are doing what you must right now...your actions are loving...I know that it doesn't feel that way...

Let me give you an illustration from my own life...

My father has Bipolar Disorder...He has cycled on and off since the age of 35(I was 10, my brother was 6)Cycles occured every two to three years with Manic episodes lasting around 6mths-the episodes worsened with age...He refused Meds., even under court order...He made and lost several fortunes...He was abusive, destructive, and, at times, he experienced psychosis-the details are gruesome for all of us...We had him committed numerous times...State Mental Hospitals, well, WOW, there are no words to describe them...

FINALLY...my mom divorced him-this August it will be 2 years...It killed her to do so on so many levels...when she did, he lost his health insurance(he's had 8 heart attacks & 2 quadruple bypasses, etc.)-she still feels guilty about that...They had been married for 40 years...

My dad will be 61 in June...He has been on meds for his Bipolar Disorder for the past 2 years, he began taking them about 1 week after the divorce was final...the divorce was the catalyst...Because of his untreated mental illness he has lost so very much...financially, spiritually, emotionally and physically...Today he is a broken man...My mom has allowed him to move back home, out of pity, guilt, and, yes, love...He now sees and is in contact with his psychiatrist regularly, of his own volition...

My brother and I often wonder how much our lives would have been altered if my mom would have given my dad "tough love" when his illness initially surfaced...we all endured much...no one can be sure if the same results would have come to fruition back then...My brother and I sure think that it would have been worth a shot...my mom and dad think so now too...

Dazed, please rest assured that you are doing the right thing here, it's so difficult, but oh so necessary...don't second guess yourself...this is best for all three of you...May you have the peace that you so deserve...


God Bless You Dazed...


Mrs. Wondering

Mrs.W~

I'm sorry to hear that about your parents. That had to be very hard on you. I understand. There most be motivation to change. I do get where your coming from. One must step back while there is still love and compassion left.

In my case it has taken a lot from me. I struggle with the proper perspective. I understand that expectations lead to frustration. It is my belief that I could continue to love her even with out love in return as long as there was no contact, or atleast a genuine effort. At first she seemed to try. She told me of her fears and thoughts. I was painful for her and I but we were together sharing her struggle. When she stopped sharing and went back to hiding I just felt something must change.

I believe she chose the path of least resistance. It is now hard for me to let her go. I do love her. I do care about her. I think no one will argue with me that this OM is psycho and she will be hurt by him.

I just can't stop it or allow myself to be burned out. In a way she conditioned me for this. She has made no effort to meet any of my needs or contribute to the house.

I would be lieing if I did not say I feel sad for her and I'm also lonely. It is hard to let go of your dreams. The dreams I have of us and our family I guess are expectations in a way. It is loving the right way that I want for us. That is why I have changed my tolerance level. It is time for us.

I have mixed feelings. I know it will never last with her and that sick SOB. I just wonder how much damage she will have to endure and for how long.

She really is a mess. She has so many internal problems going on in her. She is sick and being exploited.

I can only pray for god to help her now. She is now in his hands. I have done all I can for her. I hope he can reach her and help her see the light.
I'm sad and angry all at the same time for her. As for OM...As Mr.W said, he will get his day....

I need to mental prepare for her return tomorrow. I don't want to be angry... Just calm and cool with her. Solid and firm.
I could use some thoughts as to what to say to her. I know I'm changing my boundry... Just not sure how to posistion myself for the long run...

Dazed...

*I* really think that there isn't much left for you to say at this point...I believe that this is the time that you must write and give her your Plan B(love)letter-remember Plan B must be "Plan B", not an "arranged Plan B"-Plan B lets OM meet ALL of her needs...NOT just "30 days" worth...Plan B must be Totally Dark, unless and until she is ready to have NC with OM and commit to working on the marriage...Anything other than this will completely diffuse and render ineffective your Plan B...

Give her the letter Dazed...And let go...REALLY give her to God...you say that "she is now in His hands", but you must mean it, you must know it to be true deep within your heart, you must believe it, you must have...

...~F A I T H~...

He Knows...Long before there was you or she, He Knew...and He Knows now...He has ALWAYS Known that you and she would be at this place...Trust Him Dazed...She is His child...And He is oh so very CAPABLE...Surrender her to Him Dazed...Peace will be yours at the very moment that you turn this over to Him completely...

"Be Still and Know that I am God." Psalms 46:10


Mrs. Wondering

Dazed,

I just wanted you to know that I am pulling for you and your family, I still have a good feeling about your outcome.

I am not a cheerleader for plan B to try to teach the WS a lesson. I feel that the primary goal of plan B is protecting yourself and your heart while the WS is spinning out of control. And in your case, protecting your DD from this madness.

So when you decide it's time, write a great letter and go to plan B and please, please, please stick to it. Your WW sounds like a pretty tough nut to crack and any break in plan B will most likely, prolong this situation.

I don't have a problem myself, with a long plan A. But the WS should at least have the decency to lie and sneak around. Once the threeway becomes status quo... I don't know. It sounds like your WW has made it clear that she has no intentions of attempting NC.

I still feel like your WW will come back to the marriage. The question is one of damage control, to you and your DD. How is she doing these days?

I am just rambling, I just wanted to let you know that I am keeping your family in my prayers.

I was just thinking about calling the police to confirm her where abouts.
This way it is documented if she is at OM's place. I think she would lie in court again about being at his place over night. She tried it before.

I don't know if the police would go over there. I sent them before when she was missing and asked them to check on her well being because he is unstable.

I was also thinking of exposing her to her new best friend and ask if she has spoke to WW. Because WW has made so many over the top claims of our history I kind of wanted to talk to WW's gf to see what she has heard and try to clear somethings up. Not sure if that is a bad idea or not.

I have already exposed WW to her mother and sister.

ANY SUGGESTIONS?

I wouldn't worry about defending yourself to WW's friend. Can you call her and ask if WW is there? Use this episode to expose the affair?

As far as the police, that would depend (for me) with how they dealt with it last time you asked them to check on her.

I don't know.

WW's gf is the only real riend she has and has supported our marriage very very well with WW. I agree about using the latest episode of her leaving for OM over the marriage to contact gf to see if she know if WW is ok.

Last time I had the police to this, they went right over there. If fact I have done this twice before. The last time they lied and said she was not there. Then about 15 minutes later WW was standing at the door really pissed off.

I just want proof she is there for court... That's all..

Jean, I like you girl....you know that...BUT...you missed this one by a long shot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LM

Lemonman, I know I occasionally throw something out there that makes you roll your eyes. I guess I still have some denial stuff going on with regards to my FWW days.

I think I was thinking that as long as there is a sense of shame by the WS, there are more possibilities for reality checks. But, I can also see the other side that a wayward can be so cold hearted and lie and sneak for years.

I know, for me, when my BH accepted my A and just rolled along with it, it seemed to decrease my shame base for my actions. The fact that my WH is still lying to people about his affair could mean that he is pathological, or it could mean he does still have a sense of shame.

WW came here around 9AM. Was not happy that I had her locked out and she had to knock. Was stunned when I only held the door open slightly asking she had in mind.

She asked to come in. She came in and I stood there in the entry. She asked what a couple of times. She said she just wanted to pet her dog. I asked her where she stayed at last night. She said a hotel. I thought about offering to pay for some of it if she could show me a reciept. I did not offer it though.

I asked if she came to get her stuff and if so how long would it take. She gave me a sarcastic comment so I was not so nice and told her that her affair was sleezy and wrong. I was much more collected today. I pointed out that this was her choice to do no contact with him or me.

She started bashing me again. I did much better today with it. Stay calm and cool. Only spoke of how much her affair has hurt me and us. Spoke of our future in terms of how I feel and think about things. Kind of the mantra in a summary form to her. Let her know that I was not backing down from my removal of her three way. I did tell her that I do not feel any different about her affair and it not ending has resulted in me not being able to be the person I want to be. The pain her affair is causing is just to much for me to continue to love her the right way where we enjoy life and each other.

She tried to again stand up for Jaba. I told her it don't matter how much you try to sell him we both know the real person there. He is what he is...
I only wanted to offer you the future not the past. It makes me sad that you don't want a happy future.

She tried to challange me about being a great mother. I told her she knows the truth. I asked about her future as a mother and what would she see?

She found daughter bible camp application and completed and left to go turn it in... Ironic from a woman that says there is no god to me...

I told her I felt very sorry for her. I told her I care about her and love her very deeply. I told her that her leaving would hurt be very very much however it appears she should. It hurts with every breathe I take knowing she is with another guy. How much I see her confused and lost in the fog...

I told her when I see her I only see a woman I love and care about I would like to enjoy life with as my wife. I chose to not see her failures and flaws. The past is what it is both our responsiblity for our marriage together. I take my responsiblity for my part, and only want to find a way to improve on it. Until she can choose to take her responsibility for her part and join me in a positive way to find our future then this is where we are.

No contact with one of us.

I told her I know how emotional and in her own words have been under the influence of him. I understand how he talks and is a salesman of a fantasy that sound inviting. However we both no the truth. I suggested one day she will see out of the past and the fog. That day may be very hard to deal with. Until then I have I can't share her...

In between some of this was some insults by her and I reversed bashed her affair.

I have a feeling she is not going to want to leave when she gets back. She was complaining about only having 9 dollars in her checking account... I think she will want to say she is broke and can't afford a hotel with out using credit cards...

I'm not ready to let her off the hook... Need to prepare for when she gets back.

I think I will simply tell her it is no contact with him or me. If it's me, then she needs to go. She asked again if I planned to hold this over her head and try to take DD. I was thinking if I should down play divorce so she will go if she is not ready for no contact with OM. I don't want her racing to the court house. With out her showing any signs of being ready to for being with me, I want her out.

I need to heal myself and maybe she can also heal her perspective on me as well.

No matter how difficult this is, you're doing the right thing. When she moves in with OM, she'll be in withdrawal from you. You take care of so many of her needs and its sounds like she relies on you a lot. She'll find out just how much, once you aren't there anymore.

And... my guess is that sex will get old with that freak after she's with him continuously. From some of your old posts, it sounds like he isn't affectionate and that he's not kind to her. He's unstable and he's a jerk. He will demand sex and I bet you anything that after the thrill of sneaking around is gone, it'll get old fast for her and make her feel used and dirty.

In the meantime, the OM will try to control her and he won't be happy about her new friend -- especially since the friend thinks he's a nutjob and supports your WW in working on her marriage. Exposure will put your WW in a bad light at work and with everyone you know.

But it really does sound that until she hits rock bottom, she just doesn't have the maturity or decency to reflect on her behavior and how she's wronged you and your daughter.

The best thing you can do for her is to let her go. It's the only way she'll ever repent and realize that she has only herself to blame for her mess. You'll look more and more good to her, the longer she's away. She'll start pining for you and the safety and love that she foolishly threw away. And it's great that you're not allowing her to bash you. Maybe she'll grow up and stop being so incredibly selfish and hateful. This is really the only way you can help her. Letting her stay there isn't helping anyone.

Stay strong. I hope she comes around some day. She's truly a fool for choosing that scumball over you.

am I the only one who finds it odd that his ww says that it is dazed who sexually violated her over the years? I mean...THE OM IS THE ONE WHO IS THE SICK SADIST...ONE WHO DID BAD THINGS TO HIS XW. she is projecting...dazed's ww is projecting.

dazed, B isn't about kicking to curb or anything like that. It is about saving your sanity. Making your home SAFE AND DD SAFE...it is about keeping dd away from a pervert. Remember back when your WW was sending dd off to a relative's house to run amuck with teenage boys with NO SUPERVISION? This is the same woman.

She has not changed.

She has indeed drained your life. She is almost drained the life outta your marriage. Save what's left. Let her move in with the idiot OM. Let the perv try to meet her needs. Let it happen. but YOU KEEP HOUSE SAFE...KEEP DD SAFE...KEEP FAMILY SAFE. Get the RO. Please do. And keep your DD away from a sick mom. Your WW is a total full fledged alien right now. I am sick to my stomach hearing that your WW said things about you're sex life in front of her own child. how troubling and scarring that is. It is EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND ABUSE PERIOD..NOT JUST TO DD BUT TO YOU.

A mom should not be allowed to abuse her child as she is doing. She is horrible and mentally abusive to that poor child. Your poor dd has seen enough.

WW has made decision to leave. i SAY SUPPORT YOUR WW IN HER DECISION TO LEAVE since she is adamant about REMAINING A WW. Her presence is damaging to the child now. Was for several months. She just was reorganizing things playing house for a bit...letting things die down and trying to present a semblance of a decent wife so that when she made attempt to leave this time, she might fare better in court. That is an old trick btw. One my xh used. He and I had two false recoveries. Last one was, imho staged by him...to appear to be a good dad all the while he was getting sleazier, and taking his affairs so far underground and plotting against the marriage by hiding assets, and distributing monies to his parents. It was the second false recovery, that cost me so dearly and this is why I am warning you...proceed with caution when dealing with WW.

I would allow her to leave. Let this affair play itself out.

But she has hit the point of making that choice. And her choice is to leave the family home.

HER GETTING A HOTEL? THAT IS SUCH A LIE. she was not at a hotel. I'd bet 10 bucks that she was with OM. If you want to know, let her have her way and sashay around town for a day or two...but have a PI tail the girl. You'll find out.

Please just keep dd safe. I have been so sad and worried all along b/c NO CHILD DESERVES TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF SUCH A BLOODY WAR. No child deserves to hear such things. No child should endure these deliberate attacks on her family. Please just take care of things in the short term by getting the RO and finding a way to legally maintain custody of dd with you having sole.

Let WW do what she thinks she has to do.

I have a quote. It's one that came from my childhood. My dad was a wonderful man and used to read "Brer Rabbit" books to me as a child. I loved to hear him read them. In one book, one animal asks Brer Rabbit how he gets outta trouble all the time. How he is able to trick animals into doing what he wants them to do..his answer?

"Give em' have what they THINK THEY WANT."

That was his trick. Letting them have what they perceive what they want. Why? Because when you give somebody what they think they want, the reality is usually different. Far different. Time to step back, stop the insanity, and turn the drama down to low. Let WW take the drama out the door with her. Let her live it out now. It's time for you and dd to take things easy and live quietly and repair for a while.

Her a will go down in flames btw. they all do sooner or later. Call me karnak, but I know their future.

What is important is today. Just today. Plan for the short term and do what is right and just. No anger, hatred. Just turn her drama on mute for a while. Let the Alien out the door. Open it as a gentleman and pack her bags for her...after all it's her choice. She will find out that OM is not a dad, not even close to being dad material and that he's a horrid person. She will soon learn to resent the man who took her away from her family..that is what WILL HAPPEN. I guarantee it.

And reiiterate to your WW as she is leaving this is HER CHOICE. She must do it of her own accord..but don't stop her. She needs to find out first hand this is the most regrettable mistake she will ever make.

Just GIVE HER WHAT SHE THINKS SHE WANTS.

You will know the truth.

And you stay strong and be there for dd.

Kudos to you for being so sweet and loving during this time to dd and her friends.

Dazed my friend, this is more of the Same SH** Different Day with her (predictable) and more importantly YOU (also predictable)....your moving the boundaries a little, and huffing and puffing (albeit silently to her and here)....but your WW does NOT for one second think you will do anything but provide the grease for her to continue steam rolling you. I got on Jean36 for making a comment a few posts above that was essentially ludicrous regarding doing a long Plan A and the Ws having the "decency" to lie and cheat behind your back. That on second thought even has merit....your WW thinks so little of you that she at this juncture would try and pass off that she was at some hotel for the night...Are you kidding me? (I can bet there would be at least one "supporter" you could find who would try and spin it in a way that that could be possible)...OK, you know what else I would have to say, so I won't say it...been there done that.

Goodluck....

LM