Please read the thread began by your lovely wife oak.

as a former bs....I see and understand her pain.

do you?

we're not bashing you...just pointing out that her en's are important NOW...VERY VERY IMPORTANT...

we've been crushed, the bs have. deceived. we've witnessed the op getting gifts lavished on them...known you ws have been sexually intimate wtih the op. we've been NEGLECTED EMOTINALLY mostly.

and we've worked our hands to the bones to bring our ws back into our homes.

when I got to the time when I filed for the divorce, i was a bit...not far, but a little bit further than your wife is in the "love bank at zero" point. I was more than gone. I was SPENT.

I OWED MONEY BACK TO THE LOVE BANK, or so I felt. it was that low.

and I felt there was no other alternative, as the ow had gotten pregnant and my ws was still in the "it's all about me" phase and had not committed completely to NC, not even close, and was damaged severely after two false recoveries..with him taking the affairs further underground with each d day.

we applaud you for coming here and for DOING THE RIGHT THING..THE BRAVE THING...AND REALIZING YOUR M IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN A BRIEF MOMENT IN TIME.

but your W NEEDS TO FEEL IMPORTANT...feel it. know it.

she does NOT.

what CAN YOU DO? WHAT CAN SNT DO TO BEGIN BUILDING WITH YOUR W'S EN IN MIND?

no dates?

My lord...you dated the ow...why not date the lovely wife you have who was so gracious and loving and steadfast and committed to you? your W DESERVES SOME ROMANCE AND SOME TIME SPENT ON HER...LAVISHING GIFTS, LOVE, AND MEETING EN'S FOR YOUR W.

consider yourself one of the lucky ones..YOUR BW STAYED...

when I found out ow was preggers...I checked out for last time. was done. caput. finito.

take it from a former bw who was hurt beyond belief. it's time to heal and I mean WORK WORK WORK on your M and most of all.

WOO YOUR W. give her space too. respect her. give her en's a peek? what are they? who is she deep down? what are her wants, needs and desires as a woman?

and my man what is this about NO WEEKEND GETAWAYS? NO TRIPS? NADA? that will not do.

when I walked over that "it's now or never" endpoint in my M...and my now xh lied that last time...I was forever gone. sad, regretful b/c I, like your bw, tried soooo darn hard,....I was done and exhausted and worn out and my heart so broken that trying was no longer an option.

do your best. give this no less than a million percent effort.

here's what you can do to start:
1)meet and find out her en's. be a detective. sit back, watch, and learn.
2)what makes her feel loved? appreciated?
3)what little rituals as a woman does she enjoy? sunday paper with a special coffee from starbucks? bubble baths? little stuff.
4)what are her favorite colors? song? flowers? do ya know? if not, that's more to find out. what's her favorite gemstone? jewelry? designer handbag? does she like going for massages/manicures? when was the last time YOU MADE HER FEEL WANTED AND APPRECAITED?
5)where does she dream about travelling to? ex: I read many of dan brown's books...and I am dreaming of going now to italy and paris...to see the historical sites in book. very romantic to me. what about your w?
6)who's her favorite author? does she read?
7)WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SURPRISED HER PLEASANTLY?
8)does your bw feel wanted? I mean in the sf way? does she feel sexy? how can you help this out?

NOW DON'T TRY TO DO ANY OF THIS AT THE SAME TIME...each must be carefully understood and that it takes time to work thru these needs...and deep down...each girl here has similar desires I'd bet you. BUT GET TO WORK.

it CAN BE REALLY FUN WORKING THRU THIS STUFF...chase her. woo her. pepe le peau her but without the stink and the accent. remember how he chased? this can be exciting again....IF YOU DECIDE IT IS TO BE THAT.

if you're wooing a girl...you gotta know these.

I'd call them the "CARDINAL RULES OF DATING YOUR W" or cardinal rules of dating period. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Word!

snt...

NC EQUALS NC FOR LIFE..

and if the ow doesn't get it after being clearly told via certified mail from both YOU and your lovely W...then jail her..get an RO.

do WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET YOUR W BACK.

are u listening? are u getting it?

b/c you're dangerously close to having your W become like I DID...

AND SHORTLY AFTER THAT TIME I FILED AND DID NOT GO BACK.

It was hardest thing I could have ever done in my life. I miss the man I married...I DO NOT MISS A WS.

please take the blessings you have and run with them. do WHATEVER IT TAKES.

and please READ WHAT I POSTED TO YOU...PRINT IT OFF...BEGIN SLOWLY AND ACCOMPLISH EACH OF THEM IN THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS...AND KEEP DOING IT...UNTIL IT'S THE MOST FUN YOU TWO EVER HAD.

she's NOT GONNA GIVE YOU ANOTHER MULLIGAN DUDE.

justpeachy.......Is he even still around MB?

I looked for his screen name and it appears that his last post was on the 6th of Jan, but it was to someone else. I think his last post on his thread was in Nov and it was about NOT letting OWH know about the NC letter! Makes no sense to me why he would not want OWH know that he will no longer contact OW. I always question this logic!!!! Something fishy there!

I hope he comes back here IF he still wants his wife. I believe she is on the verge of walking out without EVER looking back.

Daisy

Yes I am here. I have been lurking around for a few months just reading and listening to the advice given to others.

I appreciate everyone who has responded to my W's thread. I know that she is so very tired of all of this. I am too but that doesn't really count since I am the one that created this mess.

I am going to work on my response and post it tonight. I am going to type it on Word because I am sure it will be long and I don't want to risk losing it and then needing to remember and re-type. I saw that advice from someone else's thread and I think I will heed it.

I am looking forward to getting some advice here too. There are a lot of things that Oak says that are right on target. I did screw up for a very long time. I did enter the "fog" twice. And I am working hard at allowing Oak to spend as much time in her office as she needs to. Like I said, I know she is tired. I have not asked her to do anything for me. If she wants to stop doing my laundry, she can stop. She doesn't need to cook for me. She doesn't even need to cook for kids. I can do that too.

But as far as trying to mend the love bank so I can put deposits in it...well, I don't know how I am going to pull that one off. If I do anything, she tells me that I need to stop being nice to her. I just don't know how to go about beginning this "work" as peach calls it. I felt like I had began the "work" and I thought things were improving. I'll discuss that more tonight but then I find out that the last few months have all been an act on her part. I thought I was making deposits but apparently they just leaked out of her bank (or they were the wrong kind of currency!).

I just wanted to let you know that I am here and I do appreciate peach starting this thread. I need to be called out. I screwed up. I take 100% responsibility. But I don't know where to go from here.

I need to go play with the kids some more. It's beautiful outside and we were just taking a baseball break when Oak told me that there were some replies to a thread she started and another thread had been created. After I read both, I just wanted to let you know that I am here since that had been questioned.

In the meantime, please pray for us.

Thanks, SNT

bump....

I am sorry I didn't get it posted tonight. I worked on it and talked to Oak some more.

I really need everyone's help here. I'll work on it some more while I am at work but today's events just wore me out. It has been an extremely long and tiring weekend.

I didn't want anyone to think I was avoiding the subject because I am really anxious to get some help here. I feel like I am facing a situation where I just don't know what to do. I don't know what to say.

Good night everyone.

SNT

OK. Where do I start?

We went to MC yesterday. I think this guy will be helpful. He's a little more "let's get to the problem" in concrete rather than abstract terms. That's the only way I know to put it. Anyway, he's going to be a good one I hope and pray.

In answer to some questions on the other thread started by Oak, I am in NC. I realize that it is the only way to head towards recovery. Oak asked me last night if she thought we were in recovery yet and I told her I didn't know that there was a defined line of "if you can answer yes to these ten things then you are in recovery" type of thing. But I thought that the only way to honestly be "in recovery" was that if both partners are in it 100%. Right now, she admits that she is not. Entirely understandable but preventing us from going into recovery.

So, the big question is how do I proceed? What do I do? Do I just help out as much as I can and let Oak heal enough to where she can start taking deposits in her LB? Do I make deposits even though I know they are not being received? I mean taking a trip would be wonderful. We just got back from Disney (with the kids). I thought the trip was wonderful and I thought she thought so too until we talked about it. So, why would we want to take a trip? If it is not going to help anything, why don't we wait and take one when we can both enjoy it? I hope that doesn't sound like I am trying to get out of taking a trip because I am not. I am just wondering why take one if she is not in the rebuilding/recovery process yet 100%?

And I am not playing the NAIVE card here just to get more time or anything. I really want to know. Peach or Daisy or Grape...if you were in Oak's shoes, what would you want or expect? Would you want me to puruse and ask you out on dates or buy you gifts? Seriously. Or would you interpret that as "pity dates" or "guilt dates" and just want me to stay away and let you heal? Would you want me to ask you to go on a trip where you were going to be with me and just me for however long? I am just not sure what to do.

I am serious about this. This is important to me to figure all this out.

I feel like I am walking on eggshells with every single thing I say or do. I don't want to step out of line and have changed several things about what I do or what I want in order to make this work. And only because I think it can. If I thought it was an impossible dream, I would be gone. But I don't. I think that Oak and I can restore, recover, and be glad we did. When she decides that she believes that as well, then we can move forward.

I hope you each have time to offer some help here. It would definitely be appreciated. If you feel a 2x4 is necessary, swing away. It won't be anything new.

SNT

P.S. Peach, I haven't checked on your job thing but I hope it is going well.

SNT: Thank you for asking all these questions. I would suggest the following:

To start with, just BE THERE. As in, be in the house. Be present. Be accountable. Be trustworthy.

You have to understand that to your wife, if you are not literally standing in front of her she has no idea where you really are, what you are really doing or who you are really doing it with. You have lied so much that when it comes to you, she has no idea what is real and what is not. If you told her the sky was blue, she would have to go outside and look for herself.

The greatest gift you can give her right now is complete accountabilty along with some gentle attention. Right now, just watching a movie together on TV will be a big deal. Why? Because anything she does with you or for you make it seem like she's condoning and accepting your treatment of her and of your marriage, and that is going to be a very big problem for her for a very long time.

The other things you mentioned will come in time, but you have to earn her trust back first. It took you several years to destroy it and it could take as long to fully earn it back. That's the reality of lying and cheating in a marriage.

Good luck.
Mulan

This part of recovery is NOT about ENs and filling a lovebank. I disagree very strongly with JustPeachy's recommendation about ENs (I agree strongly about what she said about NC tho!).

I've been there, done that, and survived a WS and a rocky recovery to rebuild a solid marriage with the help of Steve Harley.

This part of recovery is about safety, accountability, and verifiable honesty.

As long as the above is not in place - there is no ability to meet ENs.

Attempts to meet the ENs listed above without the safety firmly in place, will simply appear as manipulation, lies and attempts at cake-eating.

Oak will choose her marriage if and when she feels it is safe to open her heart again. A non-open love bank - which is what Oak describes - is a result of either a non-safe environment, or one that has not been in place long enough for her to be comfortable. Safe is defined by Oak, not by anyone else.

EN that involve the WS fulfilling marital commitments and obligations such as family committment, and financial support can and should be acted upon as amends and demonstration of a willingness to committ wholeheartedly.

This must be done UNTIL. It's up to Oak to decide when and if she is ready to participate in the marriage.

I can tell you that during early recovery while my husband was establishing my safety - romantic travel escapes and other intimate personal ENs that were suggested in this thread were NOT welcome. Reconnection with our children, redirecting the paycheck to a shared account, handing over passwords and closing cell accounts WAS welcome.

I have done all those things. I have given passwords. I have tried to become an "open book". I have never disconnected from the children so that was not an issue. We share a bank account and I have given her full proviledges to my business accounts.

I understand that it is up to oak as to when the LB will be back open for business.

So, what you are saying, is that I keep doing what I am doing and when Oak is convinced, she is convinced.

Would you agree with my answer as to what the definition of the "start of recovery" is?

Would you agree that I should let her know that I am open to meeting the EN's listed out by Peach? I don't want her to think that they are not on my mind. I agree with Peach that Oak should at least know that I realize that they are there. She may not want me to pursue them yet but I should be ready to. Right?

SNT

I think you should ask Oak if what you are doing in terms of her safety is comprehensive enough for her.

I don't think either of you should be hung up on recovery definitions. There are many ways of recovering, personally and individually as well as maritally.

As I suggested to Oak - seek out the advice of those who have achieved and suceeded at what you want to accomplish here. For you, if that means you want to convince your wife of your sincere desire to repair and rebuild no matter what it takes, then by all means, go on the recovery board and ask the men who have been where you are at for help.

SNT,

There is some truth to what BR says. At this point, given all the damage and given OAK's state of mind, byuing her cards, flowers and candy, is not the way to her heart. Unfortunately, at this point, she may feel uncomfortable with all that attention, wondering at your motive, or simply feeling low because she CANNOT at this point accept your gifts the way she may have 10 years ago.

At this stage, you may not want to be so 'in your face' with your attention. But that does not mean that you don't do anything. YOu will have to think really hard here. You do not want to smother her. On the other hand you don't want to loose her completely either by doing nothing.

Being 'open' as BR suggest is the first step. Then you do little things, things she would not expect, that show you care. This is were YOU have to do some thinking, because YOU are the one who after 13 years, knows your W the best!

In my case, when I went to the store I would buy a pie because I knew my H would like it. Then I got home and put the pie on the table, and I would have a slice and he would then have a slice. It is about showing that the other person is on your mind, without crowding them, and showering them with gifts.

It is about the little things. If there is a book she always wanted you to read, pick it up, read it every now and then, whether she is there or not.......

And so on....

There are no guarantees that YOU and OAK will make it. There never are, A or no A. I had a thread on the LB once, and NCwalker replied to it. He had something very interesting to say about it. I personally did not feel the LB was the best concept. He added to it, that a person loves because they choose to love. This is were your W is, she has been so hurt that she has to choose to love again, and open herself up to you. Noone knows if she will. It is her choice and there is no formula to use to get her to make that choice. However, she is more likely to open herself up to a man of integrity, one that she can respect, one that respects her, one that is open and she can feel comfortable with, one that does meet her needs (or shows he is willing with time)......

I think the best way, is to be open, honest about your life (your comings and goings) and your feelings.....and do the little things so that it is part of your life, not just "I am doing it to win her over and once I win her over then I will stop"........

Have you thought of talking to the Harleys? I know you said you have a MC. The reason I think the Harleys are good, even though you get such a short time with them, is because they get you on a plan! H and I went to a MC who (now with 20x20 hindsight) I can say was not very good.......he had no plan for us, it sadly turned into a lot of talking with little action and then turned into him and my H "debating" C in general.....each attacking the other (it was awful to sit there, and when I suggested a new counsler my H just said "NO more MC ~ lets be friends!!") So, please make sure you have a good one that has a plan! MCs make a difference in my opinion.

Best to you.......

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Oak

Everyone, may I also say that the mere fact that SNT is posting and going to MC and wanting to work things out gives me a glimmer of hope? It does. He is bravely facing the consequences of the betrayals with me, at least. This is so different than the way things were before ( with the first affair).

We still have so much counseling to do and healing to do. I just think that the biggest setback recently was the way the OW made contact last week. All the WS's on this site know how instantly devastating that can be, whether SNT responded or not (and he didn't, thank Heaven).

Just wanted everyone to know.

** deleted **

hmmm ~ SNT, early in my recovery,I had a very hard time around certain people because I was humiliated and my self-esteem had suffered a terrible blow.

I was embarrassed to meet my husband's boss - because his boss had met OW. I was devastated to think that perhaps his boss thought I was a bad wife.

There were other people in my husband's life - his best friend for example - who had tried to remain neutral to the affair, and it was a very hard thing for me to deal with, because I felt that I was the victim and deserved to be supported 150%. Anything less was perceived by me as a slap in the face. What took me a long time to understand was that what I judged and lableed indifference was really fear (afraid it might happen to themselves and maybe infidelity is contaigious) or just an complete loss for how to deal with it. It's not like we get lessons from society on what to do if a close family member is cheating!

When a spouse has an affair - the reactions of other people, and the sides they take, or do not take, can change relationships forever.

I get what your wife wants and needs from your mother. She feels that she was seen by your mother as a bad wife, less of a woman, or at fault for your affair.

What she wants back is her own self-image and self-esteem, and I am guessing that she is seeking relief and external validation from you - by requiring that you prove she IS important to you. She's going to challenge everyone and everything motivationss for awhile, because when you learn that everything you you thought you knew is wrong, and that people can be wonderful to your face and still plunge the knife in your back...she's going to be angry, distrustful and very challenging towards other's motives for quite some time.

I read your mother's note and I thought it was just lovely. But as a fresh, raw, devastated BS, I probably would not have found it enough either - because an apology doesn't offer relief from the pain - which is your wife's motivation here.

Give this some time. Call the Harley's, you really need their help here.