last year my wife & her mother went on a cruise with her aunt & 2 cousins,
I really did not want to go with too may woman . I stayed home & ran the buisness . ( buisy time)
Now my wife has announced that she is going AGAIN this time in oct. ( another buisy time) I'll have to stay home & tend the buisness.
this time she is going with a couple I have met 1 time. & a woman I have never seen.
I want to go but must be at the slow season.
she says that she is going regardless. & i said I can't go, Correct, but I also said wait till buisness is slower & I'll go .
I kind of feel like it is a form of cheating.
This really has me in the dumps.
what do you think? let it go? & me feel bad & betrayed - fore ever-
Or just say NO & fight?
sorry just a rant! **TOOL**
help , help, help.
let me hear what you think. please
right or wrong it will help! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Toolman, get the book and read it WITH your wife His Needs Her Needs by Willard Harley. Read up on the concepts here on the site most specifically Radical Honesty and Policy Of Joint Agreement. It sounds to me like the "woman" your W is going on the cruise with may very well be a man, possbily someone she met on the last cruise??

Holey crap faithful follower . You just gave me the start of MY LIFE!! It felt like the blood just drained out of my whole body at one time!!! can this be true? Could I be so blind? does this happen a lot?

I apologize toolman but insisting you cannot go on the vacation sounds like a huge red flag. Sorry to hit you between the eyes but you are here on an infidelity sight so there must have been something in the back of your mind?

Here are some signs that you may look for:

Has opportunity to be around the opposite sex (or same sex if you suspect same sex behavior) in real life or on-line
Has shown more or less interest in talking about sex or intimate matters lately or during the beginning of the time you suspect the affair was going on. The only conversation may be about basics such as dinner.
Has shown more or less interest in spending intimate or sexual time with you lately. (Make exceptions for persons working longer hours if you know the company demands such for sure. Make exception for persons having problems with health or a relative or other significant problems)
Takes more interest in his/her appearance and clothing at certain times.
More time at the gym or exercise, and possibly improved diet
Sleeping more sometimes
More concerned about breath. Mints, gum, freshener with them always.
Becomes defensive or changes the subject if infidelity or affairs comes up. May say "I need my space" or "I need my own time"
Doesn’t want to go anywhere with you lately (this can happen for other reasons)
Doesn’t want to argue or fight with you. (this may be because you argue too much)
Seems generally more secretive, short tempered, distant or defensive.
Picks fights over small things or other behaviors to get you to leave the house. Or sets up appointments for you or gets you together with a friend or relative.
Becomes more secretive with cell phone and maybe acquires a phone card or pager.
Unexplained charges on bank statements such as uncommon location of gas station.
Unusual mileage on car, either higher or lower than expected.
Has one or more times each week or two where three hours or more are unaccounted.
His or her or your closest friends (friend) avoid you or avoid(s) talking to you or act(s) embarrassed or spend(s) more time with you than usual
Has in the last year or months before the suspected affair expressed an interest in other people of the opposite sex and perhaps even joked about or suggested a "threesome" or some unusual sexual behavior which you do not prefer. (This alone should not raise much suspicion. It is common for partners to have fantasies or disagree on some aspects of sex.)
Some neighbor or friend of yours or his (of your sex) has been spending more or less time around you or your house, or around your lover).
Has shown more or less interest in sex than usual (allow for tiredness or worry or other stress as mentioned before)
Has occasionally awakened you at odd hours of the early morning getting in or out of bed.
Asks about your schedule or itinerary more often than usual.
Clothes smell unusual or have stains.
Unusual items in ashtrays or car seat. Changes in position of passenger seat of car
Have you found condoms or Viagra hidden when these were not used before?
Insisting some acquaintance is "just a friend"
Has spent unusual time or odd hours on the internet, typically near bed time or later. (exceptions are programmers, gamers, researchers and stock market traders and the like). May be accompanied by more clicking when you come near.
More or secret email accounts (such as Hotmail) (may need investigator help here)
Is more often unreachable by phone.
Hang up calls or someone saying they have the wrong number (not unusual anyway)
Hiding of cell phone, telephone or credit card statements
Accuses you of something such as cheating to deflect the questions.
Spends too much time with or seems too friendly with neighbor, kids or teens (even your own, particularly step-children)
Reduction of planning and talk about your future together.
Errands take much longer than they should
Doing things they never did much before (shopping, taking care of kids, etc)
Buying expensive flowers or gifts for no apparent reason or occasion
Too many visits to "friends" (or, this may just be true)

Toolman,

Here is quote from Dr. H:

We all want to blindly trust our S but even the good Dr. says this is a major mistake. Your w should be willing to postpone the cruise, in order to spend this pleasurable recreational activity with you!

Lots of red flags flying on this upcoming cruise, my man. Don't blindly buy into this stuff. Perhaps most of us here who are BS's are a little paranoid, but , like you, we never believed it could ever possibly happen to us. Sound familiar? You need to explain to your W that you are not at at all comfortable with this cruise and she needs to postpone to time when the two of you can go together.
If she says this is unacceptable, then you two need to have a serious talk about why she so adamant about her position. You see, it's really undefensible, unless there is something else going on. A reasonable person, would love to wait for their spouse to join them. Make sense?
I wish you all the best,
Jerry

ff that is a lot to digest. quote a few things are right on target but I will say more miss than hit, But the hits are bullseye!
It already came to the serious discussion, she said that I would not go with her -- true wrong time!.
she will NOT stop this trip no matter what! she got PO'D & said that I just wanted to control here every move.
she said (crying) that she would give up her weekly card games with her friends, her weekly water color class, her part time teaching job - ect. ect. & just sit at home If I "MADE her not go on this cruise.
That made me feel like a HEAL.
I never made her give up or do any thing . And never asked her to give any thing up before, till now.- Just 1 time in 30 years..Tha answer is a big NO !! 100% I'M going no matter what!
I must be a blind sap.
What is the next step?
seems the nice guy is painted into a corner!

Toolman,

The things FF, and shinethrough are saying is on the money. 2 Years ago if I were asked if my W could ever have an affair. I would laugh and say its not possible.

With what I now know. You have some huge red flags waving at you.

Do you think this trip was planned during a busy time for your benefit or hers?

Is there anyway you can convince her you are going (Even if your not). I bet she will find reasons for you to stay behind, if something is going on.

(If needed) figure there means of communications, before you let on you suspect something is up. It will only get harder to catch them if she thinks your on to her.

Keylogger for internet, cellphone records is best place to start.

Hopefully we are all wrong and you regain piece of mind.

But its better to have the truth before you confront with questions!

toolman, this trip is a bit in the future, correct? Ok, the what you need to do in the meantime is a bit of sleuthing. Who are the people she is going on the cruise with? What can you find out about them.

BTW, her saying you are trying to "control" her is classic WS (wayward spouse)talk.

Does she have a cell phone? check her phone records all the way back if you can to the last cruise. Put a recorder on your home phone where she can't find it. Just those things should clue you in if there is an A going on.

I don't know what business you are in...

But, personally I'd say to call her bluff. Tell you boss that you HAVE to take a trip at this time...that if it's a choice between your marriage and your job that you're going to have to choose your marriage.

And tell her to get a cabin for the two of you...no matter what the impact is on your job.

Tell your wife that she is more important to you than your job. Tell her that your marriage to her is more important than your job. That if she just HAS to go on this trip, you understand. But you know that going on seperate trips is totally determintal to marriages (quote the book by the Harley's here), and that you'd much rather go with her and have a wonderful time with her than anything else. That you'd rather use this time to BUILD your marriage than to risk it...and that you'll work out the job thing one way or another. After all, she's far more important to you than a job is.

See what her response is then. If she still insists that you not go, then you KNOW that she's got something else planned. At that point, reach out to the person she's using as an alibi to find out what's REALLY going on. If she's happy...then GO...have fun, and work out the job thing as needed.

Yes when is the trip?

Spying101 Link

Owl good point, but I got the impression Toolman is self employeed.

Is there anyone she would believe you could leave the business with while you were away?

What would you do if there were a family emergency situation. This is the way you need to treat it.

Yes – there are red flags and yes – infidelity is a possibility. But there is a tendency here to see affairs in all actions on this board. No wonder! We are all burned in some way.

I don’t think we have all the info here. Just as some jump to the affair conclusion I want to ask you whether you would qualify as a “workaholic”. Do you take holidays? I am not talking about 3 day weekends. Would you, on your own initiative, take your wife on a cruise? When was the last time you two took a “grown up” holiday? Has your wife asked you to take time off or expressed concern about your work rate?

If you are putting in 12+ hours 6 days a week then I would assume your marital problems are not infidelity.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about that your wife has NOT refused to let you come on the cruise. Rather she has said she will go even if you do not go. If that is the case and there is any ground for my workaholic theory then just go! Surely your marriage is worth the sales or income in a “busy” month.

justkeeptrying, The trip is in sept. march 6 now -- good long time to get really blown out of the universe size . wife says I tend to make mountains out of mole hills. I should make Mt. everest in this much time! if I don't have a coriary first!This crap makes a person feel terrible .
I hate it!
Yes y'all I am self employed , work 7 says a week. 365 . but have spaces in between every day.I work 2 hrs in am 4 hrs mid day 4 hrs eve. every day.
I really wish that bigger has solved the whole thing. -- I DO!! & I would go! -- Now should I sluth Just a little? then when I come up empty( I think all tracks would be covered)I know that the cell phone & key board thing would NEVER be overlooked by her --NEVER!! ..Then later call her hand? & say I will go ? --But you must remember this chick is SHARP = REAL sharp! I would bet BIG$$ that this has been thought through by them From a to appitite.

Toolman,

Do your homework on this, check the cell bills, put key logger on your computer, and keep your eyes open. She may not be having an affair but your constant working is going to kill your marriage. If you can take a few hours off during the day, that means you have people that can run the show. If you don't then close down the place for two weeks and take a well earned vacation. You need it, your marriage needs it, and I am thinking your W may need it as well.

You have a lot of options but doing nothing IS NOT ONE OF THEM. If you are interested in saving your marriage you need to find a way to NOT work 365. That is no way to live and it is sure to hurt your marriage.

Think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL

when I read that first reply, I had one of the biggest starts of my life . Really felt strange . Is that what people call the rug pulled out from under you?
It really did feel like the blood all left my head the body felt empty...I don't like it.
I told her that I would lay all my cards on the table friday. That was last friday. I was really surprised that thgis doesn't have much impact or concern for the little woman.
So I requested that she give me her side this friday.
That gives a week to think things out & not just spout things without thinking but have a clear head & tell the truth.
OK, this is today,
she exercises every morning at a gym. this morning the w stayed home . so I got that warming gel slippy stuff & pleasured her.. I love to do that, It really is fun & a turn on for me! ,, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
as soon as we were finished the phone rings & some gal wanted to know where she was this morning( checked ID & it was one of the cruise mates)..I may be parinoid ,I think.. maybe not ..
NOW, I am trying to figgure out what is wrong. I guess is next. I sort of ruled out to much work. we do --or did-- short trips often & that was nice .
we still have sex(even after 30 years) at least every other day.(really good sex FOR her & me both I can say with 100% confidance)
we seldome fight, may be not enough. we fuss 1 or 2 times a year. I usully just swallow my pride & let it pass.
I never cheat, I never smoke, I never drink.
she is really great about most of these things also (I think)
If you see what I have messed up on or what I missed PLEASE let me hear, cause I'm just an old country boy trying to do good
** TOOL**
??I am editing this post to ask what I came to ask this am & foregot. Should I usec a condom?? Never have! . but no one wants to die!

Ol' Country Boys are always up to no good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All kidding aside. Yes there is the chance you "or we" are just being paranoid, and could be nothing. But IMHO it's worth verifying, and if you have that uneasy feeling in the pit of your stomach. Listen to it. My wife and I maintained a great relationship in bed, I heard the "I love you's" everyday. All I'm saying is cover your six.

If she is going on the trip regardless of your position, she better believe you will be there also. If she makes attempt to find reason for you not to go. Get busy finding out why.

Keylogger software, and tapping the house phone are virtually undetectable unless you go searching for it.

Yes it's a crappy feeling spying on your spouse, but nothing in comparision to not knowing.

Best wishes Toolman, I truly hope it's nothing.

Toolman

though you do have some signs of an affair from your wife its not a given, …. yet.
However that said, also be aware that affairs need not just be sexual or physical but can be emotional.
Regardless BOTH types of affairs are marriage killers.

if I have read you correctly you have told your wife of your suspicions last Friday - is that right ? and asked her to consider what you have said & respond this Friday?

So a warning that if an affair does exist then you will most likely be lied to, she may even have the persons you suspect involved from the previous cruise, to ring you or come over and say you are so far off base you must be crazy. I'm not saying it will happen but it has happened to people here.
So be a skeptic if it sounds like excuses and nonsense, but listen to what she to say.

Why listen? Because it may give you the key to what’s going on, how she is feeling and what she is thinking. Now you may hear things you don’t want to, or things which you think are so wrong you will want to interrupt and challenge her right away, DON’T.
Just be quiet & listen for now. Let her know YOU are listening as well.
Remember it is about how she FEELS not about facts or fiction right now.

If she is not having an affair then it is clear she is telling you there must be changes in your lifestyle right now.
If on the other hand she IS having an affair of some kind, then again there must be changes in your lifestyle right now.

It is unlikely that you can work 7 days a week, 365 days a year and NOT hurt your marriage over time. That’s a big ask of anyone.

With all the red flags I would advise you to be prepared to hear the worst if she is honest with you, and very suspicious if you get strange illogical comments.

Though I’m sure we all hope most of us here are very very wrong about an affair at least.

Best wishes lets hope it goes well and you get the truth no matter what, then you know where you are and what you have to confront.

Yes , I have that terrible feeling. I will spy some.
Aussie, I just talked about what I felt was wrong with the seperate cruise- : confused, hurt, bad feeling. End it all usuall feelings & stuff. ect. I got PO'ed but maintained wonderfully.( I am getting mellow in my old age! ), . I Never said it was a trust thing to the w Or even hinted, I'll bet the condom would get the point across.
Now what??

Can you hire and train someone to do your job so you can go on the cruise?

Do you have any family that can come to your aid and work for you? I think a great suprise would be for you to tell your wife that you are going with her. I think it would be a good idea anyway.

Now if she is upset with that then I would say your marriage is in trouble, big trouble.

Tollman,
Don't start using a condom to make a point to your W. You do not have any proof of an A and this would be a very disrepectful thing to do at this juncture. If an A existed, trust me , you would have already been exposed to STD's as a result. Using a condom would be like closing the barn door after the cows were already out. Take it from one who knows!!!
You mentioned you have been together for 30 years or so. Why not do as was suggested and train someone else to do your job in sept. You seem to have ample time to do that. Then announce to your W that you will be joining her for the cruise in Sept.
Heck, after 30 years, you owe her a cruise to show your appreciation of such a long time faithful M and all the work she's done along the way, don't you?
On the other hand, if she totally rejects that as not at all acceptable, then we are back to square one, why not?
I truly hope and pray that you are somehow doing exactly as you have stated, making a mountain out of a molehill. But If we are all wrong, we on this forum will celebrate like there is no tomorrow.
Time to get busy, tool, you need answers, but, do not confront your W on this, as she will lie to you if anything more is taking place. Ask anyone here who has been through this, they wiil confirm what I am saying.
I pray you are wrong in this matter,
Jerry