***That is a real shock to a lot of WS who honestly think the BS is helpless without them and will wait for them forever.***

There is no doubt that my WS thrives on co-dependants. I am not a CD. I am an independent person. A personality trait that my WS (thought) was attracted to in the first place. He often tells me how proud he is of my professional successes, but deep down he probably feels unmatched. His insecurities draw him to people that need him. That rely on him. That feed of him. This doesn't mean that he gained a sense of abandonment with me. I constantly showered him with love, hugs, "I love you" for no reason, sacrificing the larger brownie to give to him, etc... Again, if you have the time, go back and read my original posting under another thread about his childhood. Abandonment as a child has set the stage for his need for control and the short-lived feeling of having someone totally depend on you. Not the sort of control where he decides what his wife should wear that day, but mental control over the fact that whoever he is involved with is totally committed to the point of admitting their world would end if he left them. That is the type of power he feeds on, and until he taps into the reasons why he is so needy, he will never be filled, physically or spiritually, and never be happy. Everyone knows that happiness starts with making yourself happy. Everyone around you is just an extension of your happiness. He is a deeply troubled man, with deep-rooted issues. I don't know if you caught the fact (written earlier) that he met the OW on an alternative lifetyle site that is predominently dominance-themed. What better indicator of the need for power than to assume the role of a Dom?

WAT...so appreciate your 10 rules. It's overview helped me put a lot in perspective. I have been doing exactly the things you say not to do:

1) I have been trying to make sense of everything, with disappointing results.

2) I want our recovery to begin NOW. I want the affair to end, I want my WS to ask for forgiveness, and I want to start the rebuild process. I am surprised to hear that most affairs end quickly. It was a statistic that I had never heard before, but based on the facts that the relationship was built out of quick-fix needs, and not love, says it all.

3) I snooped, I got caught, and there was backlash. I looked in his car and found the lease agreement for the apartment. When I confronted him about it, he was angry that I was going "through my things". I understand now it's the natural reaction to defend his actions. I rarely snoop anymore because I know the affair is active (even though he denies it). Finding more evidence is really not important to me. I used to look at his cell phone history to count how many times a day they talked, who called who and how frequently. It resulted in nothing but pain as I dreamt up conversations of laughter and plans for meeting.

4) The OP's spouse already knows. In fact, he has met my WS and phsically threatened to harm him if he continues to see his wife (although she has moved out of his house). This has resulted in my WS filing a peace order with the local authorities. Even more messes resulting from this affair!

5) No need to listen to counselors advising me to throw him out. He has made the choice to leave. The only question is...when? I know he has secured an apartment, but I'm really baffled why he hasn't left yet. One's opinion is that I haven't given him a reason to leave because he's got the best of both worlds, but I am confident he is making the move. There are just forces that are preventing him from doing so. It just may be his conscience.

6) I have accepted the fact that I didn't cause the affair. I am not going to have that blame laid at my feet. In tomorrow's counseling session, if he is quick use the "you, you, you" factor, I will quietly sit and listen because I am capable of understanding that he is only trying to shift responsibility for his actions. I will remind myself that this is not a rational person and that he's dodging the truth. I am at peace with that. I will then proceed to use the "I" word. And by the grace of God and His will, all things will go according to His plan.

Maybe you have the opposite problem - not setting boundaries. Good that you didn't yell, scream, kick, threaten, etc. But rolling over and not establishing your boundaries can be just as bad.


You can ask him that right now. But don't expect a complete answer. He's been abducted and his brains are scrambled.

Find the emotional needs questionaire on this site and fill it out twice - once as yourself, and once as you think your H would fill it out. Just guess for him, based on what you gather from your years together. Then, look for opportunities to pick his brain. Piece by piece. "Hon, do I express my admiration of you clearly - or often enough? How can I improve this?" If you get an answer that furthers your understanding, update your EN questionaire for him. Little by little you can paint the whole picture. When the aliens release him, he'll be willing to fill out the questionaire him self.



Yes and yes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's very common for WSs still engaged in their affair to abuse counseling and twist it to meet their agenda. Their agenda being that the affair is justifiable and I'm not gonna end it and if anybody tries to make me end it I'm gonna hold my breath until I turn blue.

You think I'm kidding?

But, just listen. Listen to EVERYTHING he says and take notes. Report back to us. If he's typical, much of what you will hear is foglatin and gibberish. He will re-write history. He will bring up trivial issues from the past that you (justifiably) have forgotten. This is all part of the kubuki dance to justify his decisions. But there may be some nuggets of worth for you to act on.

So, most of his input will very likely be non-productive - it's too early for counseling to make strides to fixing your marriage. But you may get some insight into what's going on in the turmoil in his head. Be careful NOT to take anything personally.



Did you mean, "How can I say that it is my intention to do whatever I can to correct my behavior if I don't ask what emotional needs I haven't been meeting?"

Right now - before the counseling session - you can say it's your intention to do whatever it takes to keep your family together. Period.

Meeting (reasonable) emotional needs ought to be an assumed going in position for all spouses.



Exposure is the closest thing we have to an affair antidote. If you have no one to expose to, so be it. I note you didn't mention - or I didn't see it - whether the OW is married. If so, exposure to her husband is imperitive.

WSs ALWAYS take exposure as an aggressive approach. They ALWAYS think it's a retalitory act. Do not try to predict his reaction.

WAT

MB approaches for fighting infidelity likely will not cover all his issues. Hopefully the counselor can get at them.

MB approaches and knowledge CAN help you and help you understand the dynamics of affairs.

WAT

***Maybe you have the opposite problem - not setting boundaries. Good that you didn't yell, scream, kick, threaten, etc. But rolling over and not establishing your boundaries can be just as bad.***

I have never set the boundaries. I realize that this is something that scares me. Why? Because I'm afraid that he will run in the opposite direction. So what recourse do I have? Stay in a marriage that exists with so much hurt and mistrust? I realize that that is not an option. But understanding it, and acting on it, are two different things. It could be the end of my marriage (which will tell me everything) should he decide that the boundaries are unacceptable.

But I do have a couple of questions regarding our counseling session tomorrow. IF....he says "I want out. I want a divorce". What do I say? I truly don't believe he knows what he wants, but I also know that you can't talk to someone that's not ready to listen.

Next question: if he denies the affair at the counseling session...then what? How can we begin Plan A if the OW is still in the picture, but he denies it?

Assuming you don't want a divorce, "I don't want a divorce. I believe all the problems in our marriage are fixable. If YOU want a divorce, I can't stop you, but I will not start the process."



Expect him to deny it.

Go back and read what I said earlier. Plan A is all about you and under your control. Plan A is not impacted by whether he admits the affair or not. You're already IN Plan A.

A good universal statement when ever he spews blabber or makes accusations to you or when you don't want to answer:

"I understand your concern."

Practice saying this calmly.

WAT

WAT....I can't tell you what how incrediably helpful you have been to me today. While I have so much on my plate right now, having some semblance of understanding and direction really helps. I really do feel like my world is spinning out of control. Without the support of my family (WS does not know that anyone knows, yet), I think I would have a breakdown.

I might be in denial, but I really never felt like our marriage was having that many problems. We have the usual disagreements (we never "fight"), but nothing to the point that I thought our marriage was in jeopardy.

I am preparing myself for a disappointing counseling session tomorrow because I know that he will not be confessing the affair and will be complete denial. The sadness is that I know we cannot rebuild without this first step. But you say that Plan A is about me and I'm under control, but I somehow don't get that. Isn't Plan A an interaction with my WS in a confessional of my faults? A question and answer period of "how did I fail to meet your emotional needs?" I need him to be there to hear these things, so he is definately an active participant. What am I not understanding?....(sorry for being so dense as I'm not thinking very clearly these days).

Finally, is the admission of "I'm sorry" an acceptable means of communication within Plan A?

I have ordered the book SAA and anxiously await it's arrival.

Partly.

Go back and re-read my canned Plan A description. Also find Pepperband's post, "Carrot and Stick of Plan A".

Yes, Plan A is all about you fixing your pieces of the problem - no matter how small they might be. Usually BSs discover that they "own" more the the marital problems than they fisrt thought.

If your H would fully participate and help you identify all your stuff it would of course be easier for you. But that is never the case in an active affair. Not only is he in his drunken stupor, he very, very, very likely has a skewed view of your role in the marriage problems. This is evident when WSs re-write marital history. Revisionist history.

Think about this > he HAS to be able to blame you for much of the problems because otherwise, who is to blame? He is!! He can't do THAT!! He's not a selfish jerk!! Right?

So, the important part of Plan A is for you to identify your faults objectively. Self examination. If you get "help" from your H, terrific. But take his criticisms with a grain of salt because they might include revisionist history. Separate the wheat from the chaffe. I didn't say it was easy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A secondary part of Plan A is the confessional from you. Recognizing that an affair is merely a symptom of marriage disease - the fever of the virus - admit that this was a joint failure. You share in the ownership of the problems. This is just being honest and provides for the WS a little save face that they aren't all to blame. As you know, they own 100% the decision to have an affair.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. "I'm sorry" is certainly appropriate whenever you truly are. But actions speak louder than words and if one of your "faults" was, for example, not doing a good job filling his admiration EN - a big one for males - then say you're sorry by your actions to show you are now aware of this need and you're committed to doing a better job on it. Make sense?

Hey, this is not rocket surgery.

Keep reading.

WAT

WAT,

Believe me, I have now read your abridged Plan A/B in this thread at least 8 times, so please don't think that I'm hard-headed or refusing to listen. Not only is my WS living in a fog, so am I to an extent. I feel numb, and sometimes someone has to tell me something 3 times before it sinks in. I think it's because I have many thoughts swimming around in my brain that it makes it hard to sort it all out.

***I'm not sure what you mean by this. "I'm sorry" ***

This question was asked because, just after the initial discovery of the current affair, I actually inacted Plan A without even ever hearing of a Plan A by apologizing and stepping up to the plate and admitting that I took some ownership in the breakdown in our marriage. I'm not sure he's ready to hear "I'm sorry". I'm not sure he's ready to hear anything I have to say. In fact, in typing this I totally believe that any admission of some ownership of our problems will only make him feel more guilty. Deep down he knows he's wrong, it's just hard for him to admit it (I think?). So, me, taking ownership will leave him probably baffled.

I bet he's thinking that tomorrow's counseling session will be ugly. This is prefaced with the fact that when we were discussing counseling, I had mentioned that it is my goal to make this marriage work, thus I am in full support of the counseling. The counseling, while a suggestion on his part, was approached with the following comment by him: "Hope for the best, expect the worst". In other words, he was taking a pessimistic view of the counseling right up front. I didn't expect him to do a jig with elation, but the comment left me empty, as if he was just going through the motions. Going through the motions to ease my pain? Not sure. I understand that until the affair has ended, the counseling will merely be a venue for me to show him that I admit fault, I want to make the marriage work, and I am willing to change because I love him.

I guess tomorrow will only be the beginning. In fact, I look at this as closing a chapter in our life together. It may have "The End" written all over it, or there could be another chapter awaiting us. All I know is that he says he loves me, and to quote the song "Torn Between 2 Lovers" gives me, at least, some glimmer of hope that our love has not died and there is something worth fighting for. If his love were dead, if he said to me "I don't love you anymore", and if his actions were cold and calculated (emptying bank accounts, leaving immediately, disconnect totally from all conversation), then I would treat this like a death and start the grieving then healing process.

This is more like a cancer. Unknowing if it will die or if it will be cured. I will do all I can do, and at least I will know that I tried.

xHale - I really do understand your confusion. Been there myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Does it help to say to you that nothing you have described is unusual? - pretty typical, in fact?

I and many others were doing a passable Plan A before we ever knew there was such a thing. Join the club. This shows it's kinda intuitive to some extent. (Other aspects of the apporoach are counter intuitive.)


I've never met either one of you and I'm absolutely sure he's not ready to hear anything you say!

Very typical.



Yes and yes.

Remember, he's been abducted by aliens! Let him get as baffled as possible!

I guarantee you that you already know WAY more about the dynamics of infidelity than he does. He doesn't know which way is up.

You're not stupid. Confused, yes, but not stupid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Please don't place so much emphasis on this counseling session tomorrow. We've already predicted that it will very likely be a waste of $$. Report back the outcome and we'll help you figure it out. Assuming it IS a waste, nothing ventured, nothing gained. You haven't lost ANYTHING except the $$. In the process you get a little feel for this counselor/shrink and have a data point for future reference. Maybe it'll go well.

Most BSs don't use counseling at all until recovery. (The individual counseling available thru MB is very good. I personally recommend it.) So you could not have the counseling at all as a couple and not be worse off.

He may very well be going thru the motions of attending counseling to appease you. So be it. Go with the flow and don't place much emphasis on anything that happens.

Maybe the most important thing I can tell you is that this is a marathon, not a sprint. Do not be in a hurry.

WAT

One other thing.

I assume you have accused him of having an affair, right? Hence his denials.

In the counseling session, be careful how you bring this up - if at all. If the counselor/shrink is worth a chit, he/she ought to be able to deduce the affair if you describe the "symptoms" accurately.

If it doesn't get brought up by either the counselor/shrink or your H, be ready to say something like "I feel like I'm not the main focus of his attention." Then wink at the counselor/shrink to indicate you're providing a clue.

But if the topic never comes up, no bother. It's not important now - and completely normal - for a WS to deny, deny, deny. Par for the course.

FWIW, my XW has never admitted her affair - even after marrying the guy she wasn't having an affair with 5 months after our divorce. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

***Please don't place so much emphasis on this counseling session tomorrow. We've already predicted that it will very likely be a waste of $$.***

WAT...before your advice I had high hopes that the session tomorrow would be a turning point -- either binding forces together or apart. Either way I was looking for direction. Again, until your input I thought all of this would come out tomorrow. But you have awakened me to the reality of what tomorrow is about. No $$ has been spent. This is being taken through my WS's EAP program offered through his health insurance. We get 8 free sessions, and possibly more free visits if the doctor prescribes such (everyone knows its impossible to resolve anything in that short of time).

Thanks for confirming that I will be throwing him for a loop with my Plan A approach. He made the comment "Hope for the best, expect the worst", because he thinks it's going to be all about him. Pointing fingers. Accusing of wrong doing. I'm actually going to enjoy proving him wrong and setting him back on his heels.

Also, thank you for guiding me on whether to bring up the affair. I just can't imagine that it won't come out. The doctor is going to look at us and point-blank ask us why we are there. What is my WS going to say? He's already admitted that he's had the affair (even though he's not admiting that it's continuing). If it doesn't come out, I will do as you said and not mention it. It would probably be fruitless, at best. But I am going to use this meeting (hopefully) as a tool to administer my Plan A (unless you state otherwise). I may only be able to tap into Plan A on the surface, but I plan to show my WS that I am loving, forgiving, willing to accept responsibility, and ready to listen.

I plan to complete the questionaire tomorrow so that it is fresh in my mind before the meeting. I will also attempt to commplete it on behalf of my WS so that I may be able to draw some conclusions.

***Maybe the most important thing I can tell you is that this is a marathon, not a sprint. Do not be in a hurry***

So true. I totally believe that this is not an overnight-repair situation. I am willing to go the long haul and work it out. Patience is not my strong suit, but I can see where it applies here. Especiallly since the OW is still in the picture. If I don't have the patience to wade through their affair, then I might as well cash it in now (and I'm not going to do that).

I have not accused him of an affair. It was a by-product of a conversation when I found the apartment lease. I point blank asked him if there was someone else. He admitted "there was". I asked him what that meant and he declared that "it was over when she found out I was married" (I actually believed him, too). But his continued late nights of "working late" and working every weekend, extra money coming out of the bank, her name popping up several times on his cell phone each day, and the smell of "fresh soap" on him on occassion (the sign that he's showered at night, somewhere...and whatever reason for but...).

***FWIW, my XW has never admitted her affair - even after marrying the guy she wasn't having an affair with 5 months after our divorce***

Your situation is contradictory to everything I've read here. While no one can give me a guarantee, I've read that 1) Most affairs peak and die within 6 months, and 2) rarely do affairs result in marriage.

I'm very sorry to hear that yours didn't fall into the "norm".

I might also add that I'm confused why he would deny the affair. Why he would say it was over when it wasn't. What's the point? I already knew about it (he admitted that he "had" the affair). And he's moving anyway. Is he trying to protect me from further hurt? Is he scared I will take the children from him? I don't know divorce law, but I'm pretty sure that adulterers rarely pay a price in divorce court these days. I just don't get why he's in denial other than the fact that he doesn't want to be blamed for his actions? (moving out).

I'm now concerned about the actual move and would like to have some guidance. He has said from the very beginning that we will not sell the house, that he will "always be here" (convenient, eh?) and take care of me and our babies. I realize these are visions of grandure and that he's only trying to justify in his mind that he's not a "bad guy" and that he's going to "do the right thing". I'm a realist, and I know that when push comes to shove, and he has to choose between entertaining the OP or giving me money for heating oil, he won't flat out deny me the money but make some excuse that he can't pay. I understand this and won't live in his fantasy of being the "white knight".

So...back to the move. I have been told by family that I should stay firmly close to our belongings to prevent him being a thief in the night. Let me preface this by saying that he has said he only wants his personal belongings which basically consists of his clothes and other insignificant items he brought into the marriage. He has said he wants no more. Which has left me scratching my head thinking "what the heck will he sit on?" We have an extra couch in the basement as well as a bed stored away. We just purchased new dishes a few months back and the old ones are sitting unused in a box in the utility room. So why not ask for some living comfort to take with him? My mind searches for an answer and I come up with this answer, whether correct or not I will not know: He's moving in with the OP which already has these necessities.

So, when he moves, should I stay vigilant in the house? I am fortunate to have a business that I work from home so I am naturally here every day. Being a thief in the night, ie, removing his belongings while I was at an office is not a choice.

I don't plan on helping him pack like I'm sending him off to Scout Camp, but am I correct in being present as he packs his stuff into his car? I will be honest and say that it will be painful to watch, to say the least. Family tells me that I have to figure out if I will be able to face the pain of it all. I don't know. It's hard to "save face" during such an emotional gesture as moving out your belongings.

What do I say? What do I do? As he leaves through the door one last time, what do I say at that point? Do I tell him I still love him to prove to him that I have not closed the door on our relationship?

Another very important piece of advice - don't act on my advice alone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm just a rank amateur at this - trying to pay back for all the help I received. We're sorta in a commune here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The value of this forum lies in the diversity of views and personal experiences. Folks who have been here for awhile agree the vast majority of the time with our advice to "newbies." But we don't always agree. Shop around, OK?



WSs deny the affair to either keep it secret or to fool themselves that they're not really doing any thing wrong. Their case is "special" and it's not really an affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> This latter logic apparently is my XW's thought. It's a waste of time to try to make sense of it all.




All of the above. Or none of it. Very likely he's trying to protect himself from facing the truth.

Do not let on to him that you're getting advice from MB. This is usually received with ridicule and felt as manipulation by the WS.

WAT

***Another very important piece of advice - don't act on my advice alone***

I have shopped around and found that there are quite a few people on this board, albeit with good intentions, are quick to say "stop being an enabler". I know that there is probably some truth to that statement, but I'm not here for tough-love. I'm here to tap into the experiences of others, to see what has been tested and what works. All that you have said makes sense. "Kill them with kindness" has always been my life motto, so why not apply this to my marriage?

***"Kill them with kindness" has always been my life motto, so why not apply this to my marriage?***

. . . because this motto has resulted in no boundaries whatsoever in your marriage, to the point where your WH feels free to have an affair and throw it in your face and never doubts that you will take him back any old time he wants?

WAT is giving you excellent advice, but xHale, at some point you will have to earn your husband's respect. You have seen that love is not enough to hold a marriage together. There must be respect and loyalty as well, on BOTH sides.

Please remember that Plan A is both a carrot and a stick. There are no guarantees, but if you want things to change you will have to do some things differently. Otherwise, why should your WH change a thing?

Never forget - right now, he feels confident that he can take a "marriage vacation" and play house with his girlfriend for as long as he wants, and then come back to you at any old time. He has no respect for you whatsoever and I think this is what your friends and family are picking up on.

I hope this lack of respect is not okay with you. I think you are somewhat in a fog of denial of your own. This is not unusual for someone in shock, but you have said that very suspicous behavior seems to be nothing new for your husband.

A third book often recommended here is *Love Must Be Tough* by James Dobson. I think that one would help you, too.

Please let us know how the counseling session goes tomorrow.
Mulan

***WAT is giving you excellent advice, but xHale, at some point you will have to earn your husband's respect. You have seen that love is not enough to hold a marriage together. There must be respect and loyalty as well, on BOTH sides.***

*** I think you are somewhat in a fog of denial of your own. This is not unusual for someone in shock ***

I don't refute that I am in denial. I am scared. Scared that the moment my WH walks out the door, that it's final and our marriage is over. Who wants to admit that?

But, I will say this much, through the postings here, and conversations with my family and God, I am slowly coming out of my fog and starting to see the alternative. Live with a man that refuses to address his issues? (his own denial). Always looking over my shoulder at suspicious activity, wondering if there is a new affair brewing? These questions have obvious answers. No one should have to live under that type of umbrella. It's unhealthy and disrespectful... to MYSELF. Of this, I am beginning to understand.

Sometimes, we need that little nudge to help things sink in.

Our counseling session is later tomorrow nite, so I will report here on Friday.

Thank you...each and every one for taking the time to post here.

Hello again.

I have heard mention of the Carrot and the Stick thread, but I am unable to find it. Could someone be kind enough to provide the link? I am very interested in reading it.