Actually, mlhb, you are not digressing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and I want to use this point to add to the discussion regarding Lexxxy.

You see, since I made that post a couple of months ago, I have seen G make a very significant shift in her outlooks on this stuff. She no longer not just doesn't question (sorry for the triple negative) why I'd go to the kids' games on my "off" weekends, she actually comes along with me. She has shown tremendous growth in her relationships with my kids; she asks them about school, she has gotten them very thoughtful and insightful presents, she chats with them about their lives, and she makes efforts to be in their lives. As she said recently, "after all, if I end up being their stepmom, I want to feel like I am their family".

My point in describing this is not to focus on my relationship, but to suggest that, IMO at least, it's important for relationships to grow for the better with time. In my case, we had a couple of hiccups early on regarding this issue, but with time, it has gotten much better. So it concerns me, Lexxxy, that you have been with BF for over 6 months (right?), and these issues are not just getting resolved but are popping up full force.

Not sure he wants to ever get married?? Not sure he can live with teenagers?? I doubt that these are misunderstandings on his part, Lexxxy. I think he is either having some serious doubts (which is fine, but he needs to address the doubts, not mumble about "you having time to work on him" and "well, maybe someday..."), or he really never wanted those things to begin with, but had decided to suppress them for the benefit of being with you.

Either way, I think you are right to have doubts, and I really hope that you discuss things with him. But don't allow yourself to feel unmarriable because you have kids and settle for BF and no marriage, that would be a shame.

AGG

Sturgis:

I totally appreciate this point of view. I don't view this as selfish at ALL. You know what you want, you know what you don't want. I would much prefer that to saying you DO want something you really DON'T.
I'm feeling like I got bait and switched. He very clearly upfront at the beginning said he was open to marriage. I would never have continued this if not. I see no point in wasting either of our time. Nor do I like being in the position of having all these feelings develop with this big issue between us now. I would have preferred to be told the truth and dealt with it before all these feelings are involved.

DW:

Yep. Exactly.
As soon as I started talking about ending things, thats when he started saying I was reacting too quickly, blah blah blah. I am just a very direct/straight to the point kinda person. If we don't want the same things it seems very black and white to me.

AGG -- I think you hit the nail on the head:

oh yeah -- he's 44, never been married, hasn't dated anyone in 12 years. Previous longest relationship? Maybe a year.
Has a big circle of bachelor friends.

and;

BINGO. I think he would be very content to remain on the plateau we've hit. A friend of mine looked at it this way; he's got the perfect situation. He has a part-time wife. He basically moves in with me every other week. On the weeks I have my kids -- he goes and does all his "guy" stuff.

MLHB;
With kids, without kids -- they don't seem to get me either way!! LOL.
I don't feel like I need to put my life on hold while I raise my kids.

Probably because the kid issue has come up in my last few relationships, I'm starting to feel like a big liability.
Like finding a man who will accept 3 kids is asking for too much.
You guys have made me feel better about that. Thanks...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think I am beginning to just look at our relationship as "for now". I'm not anxious to end it, but I just don't see this as "forever" anymore.

This summer was going to be pretty tough on us anyway.
My racing season starts in 2 weeks, and involves me being gone just about every other weekend.
He has plans to work on his brothers new house-building and says it will be everyday for 3 months, including using up all of his vacation time.
Oh well.

Yikes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. That does not sound like marriage material <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


Yip, that is how I see it too. Again, it may be great if you both want that, but not if you want a full time partner by your side at some point.



Well, it may be good to give it some time and think about it. No need to rush to end it, I agree. Maybe in time something will gel in you rmind <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Good luck with the racing this season <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

((((Lexxxy)))) you sound so matter of fact, but I know this has got to sting.


I would feel the same way Lexxxy.....

I don't doubt this guy cares for you (and not only cuz he's got the best of both worlds) and yes I think he knew he didn't want to parent teens, but maybe he hoped that his feelings would change b/c of YOU and how he felt about YOU.

I dated a never-married, no kids, guy in his 40's and vowed to never do so again. Like mlhb said, the world they live in is just so different from the one that has kids in it. Plus he was a complete psycho *ssh@le, but that's another story. Doesn't apply here to your guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Definitely take your time, don't rush to make any decisions and remain true to yourself. You really DO call a spade a spade and I admire that...

Hugs!
DW

Lexxxy~~

I really don't know if I have anything substantial to add, but feel I should say something.

I can certainly feel the pain you must be feeling, developing feelings for this guy only to find out some time later that he seems to have changed his mind/thoughts.
I'd say I would feel as you are feeling, a bit mislead.

Matters of the heart are so hard, and I don't envy your position. I do know for me, I'm a package deal. If/when I find love, there must be room in his heart for two more besides me, my girls.

Thinking of you!
Karona

Thanks DW and Karona.
I guess I'm disappointed somewhere inside, but I am honestly amazed at how little emotion I feel anymore!

I'm not immediately reacting to all of this, I think it will sort itself out this summer anyway. We're just not going to be seeing much of each other.

He's still just wonderful. Came over this week to help me with some things. Calls me everyday.

Oh well...

People,

where is the belief that the future is uncertain? where is the belief that people may want to explore something that appears at first blush to have potential?

how many make instant marriage / divorce decisions of the first encounter with something good / bad?

Life and living has risks, uncertainties, changes, ups and down.

The question for lexxy is, what has she learned from this man and this relationship? not all relationships are marriage from the beginning. . . it takes awhile to get to know someone and get to know yourself within a given situation. . . and then decide if you want to do this the rest of your life. . .

sort of like, shame on you who have ever changed jobs, employers or career. . . an introductory relationship is very similar. .

wiftty

Wiftty, I certainly didn't mean to imply all relationships must be "marriage material." I don't think they are nor should they all be.

That said, I know I would limit my potential heart-ache if/when I started caring deeply about a man. For example, if a man wanted his own child, that would be a problem because I can't have any more. If a man didn't want to share his own with children.. There are certain deal breakers. If one knows there is a deal-breaker for each of you, and one continues, then one is going to suffer some pain.

Look at The Student/Graduate who saw someone for years. They knew their careers were imporant to them, and that those careers would pull them in opposite directions, yet they kept on dating. Then, they were faced with some devastating choices. One would have to give up part of his/her career dream or they would split up.

Wifty, I respect your thoughts.
I don't view this as an introductory relationship. I've been in lots of those where they don't progress beyond a few dates or a few weeks.
This is someone I've been seeing for 8 months. And up to this point I thought we had the same end goal. Its bothersome to find out at this point we don't.
I don't think I've wasted my time, however I do need to consider how to move forward because if we don't have the same plan for the future I would probably feel that way eventually.
I much prefer finding this out now, rather than a year or two from now. Now I am able to make decisions that make sense for my life and my plans.
This issue is definitely a "dealbreaker" for me.

That's the risk of being human. . . you will hurt someone or be hurt by someone at some point in your life. . .

witness AGG. He said he was OPEN to having another child, but when the relationship started getting serious, he had to seriously reconsider what that meant. . . a change of mind? I think so. . . possible big conflict opportunity and some very J oriented people could use that change to allow anger to come out. . .

Hey, people can also change their mind in a year, 5 years, 10 years. . .

again, the future is uncertain, spouse hunting is always a dangerous game, in my opinion. . . there's a big difference between learning to socialize, and meeting people, and having fun. . .as compared to dating for a relationship. . .

the situations are different, the signals are different, and the results are different. . .

I am personally guided by a fellow sailing competitor, whom I remember as sort of not very logically educated. . . what was natural to me, was not natural to him, but he had one over-riding philosophy, which I used every day and what I coach when i do,

[color:"blue"] every meeting, every game, every competition, every interaction, is just another opportunity to practice my skills, and to learn a bit more about myselves and life. [/color]

The sailor eventually won his gold medal at the Olympics, by just practicing, not taking competition so seriously, that every encounter came down to a win/lose situation. That's the difference in spouse hunting, you turn relationships into a win / lose score keeping encounter. . . whereas just learning about people keeps one interested in just exploring what life and the world has to offer. . .

of course, being divorced, i am a slow learner, but I have learned none the less. . . i learn the most through experience, books and reading just help me along with different possibilities. . .

wiftty

Coasting.

Everything is good. BF is still sweet, attentive, considerate, affectionate, just everything I could ever want.

So what are you thinking here now Lexxxy? Did you tell him how you were feeling, that you now didn't view this as a long term thing? Do you think he'll change his mind, given some time?

hugs
DW

Wiftty, I think this supports your motto that life is uncertain and we cannot predict the future. I was open to having kids, but having thought about it some more and picturing life with babies and with G, after I got to know her more, I knew that I did not want that. It's not that I changed my mind because "it got serious", it was that I changed my mind based on how things unfolded and what I learned. Precisely what you advocate - do not try to plan the future <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


You keep using this phrase, but I am not sure what to make of it. Does it not mean that we should never get married? Because the minute we start thinking about it, we are spouse-hunting, aren't we? I am having trouble understanding what you mean by spouse hunting, I guess. I think you mean that we should not try to force-fit a relationship into marriage, and I totally agree with that. But what is wrong with wanting marriage with the right person?

AGG

AGG,

but you changed your mind, nonetheless, reasons are irrelevant, which is my point. You can plan for the future, you just can't expect the future to unfold the way you want it most times. . . and sometimes, luck and timing plays a very important part.

Spouse hunting is looking for a spouse, dating to find a spouse. There is a movie that has sort of a similar theme, starring Ashley Judd, called "Someone Like You." In your very enlightened state, you should watch it sometime with G. . . its a chick flick

In her searching for a relationship, Ashley became disgusted with men.. . . and the person that she falls in love with, is a very sensible person just dating to have fun. . . they got to know each other NOT by dating but by having special conversations together. . .

just an example that comes to mind. . .

spouse hunting is selective based upon criteria. .. meeting people to learn and understand each other and have fun has no judgementalism, no criteria, is natural

AGG, its just an approach that eliminates the need for judgementalism to a position, (will she or won't she) that fosters independence and wholeness, independent of the relationship. . . and naturalism. . . . there is no score, there is no expectation. . .

at 100% J, i would expect that you would have trouble with it, whereas I have strong J in my work, not in my personal life, where I can't control any outcome whatso ever. . .

wiftty

Wiftty, you are right, I do have trouble understanding your point <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

So, OK, I understand the concept of not "dating to marry", but "dating to have fun". Fine, I am with you so far. As long as things are fun, why worry about the future. OK. So far so good. Then what?

If you are advocating dating forever, and never considering tomorrow (which, after all, is uncertain), I understand you.

But, I do not understand what you suggest if someone (let's say one of your kids) wants to get married at some point in life.

What I hear you saying is "don't try to look at compatibility, don't make any plans, just have fun - the future is uncertain!". So, how does someone get married? How do they make plans for buying a house, having kids, etc, if the future is uncertain?

After all, the minute we start thinking about the stuff we all (or at least most of us) have grown to know and love (ENs, LBs, compatibility, boundaries, etc etc), you'll jump up with your red flag and yell "the future is uncertain, why worry about compatibility and dealbreakers!"? So do you advocate marriage just "happening", without really looking at compatibility and the practical aspects of it? Isn't that exactly how most of us ended up in marriages that led to divorces - not knowing what to look for in a partner, and going with mostly just the "feelings"?

So, would be curious to see your thoughts on this...

AGG

Ok Wiffty, I *think* I get what you are saying....

You say one should date w/o expectations of it leading to marriage. Kind of "que sera sera" mentality....just get to know the other person, enjoy the experience of getting to know them, and just be w/ them. Go w/ the flow...am I right?

Otherwise, when one is dating to meet a potential spouse, "spouse hunting", w/ the future so uncertain, things can get seriously mucked up, b/c there are now "expectations".

Ok, I get this b/c this is precisely how I approached dating post divorce. I WAS NOT looking to ever ever get married again. EVER. Got my house, my life, my independence, so don't want no dude stinkin' up the joint, kwim? Was perfectly happy to go w/ the flow, enjoy a nice, monogamous, part time relationship w/ no expectations of marriage, no timelines and just see what happens. All good.

THEN

I/WE fell in love, and now I can totally see myself w/ my current BF long term, as in........marriage! Hey, when did THAT happen?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Beauty is, the marriage part is still not the end all be all for me, so no timelines, but as the relationship grows, so does our desire to be w/ one another full time.

DW

Yeah, "que sera sera", "hakuna matata", "one day at a time" - all nice cliches, but all smack of one thing - selfishness and fear of commitment.

I can see using this attitude to never be tied down to anything - jobs, relationships, friends, etc. Hey, the future is uncertain <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

While I agree that this may be a fine attitude for some, I do not agree with the implication that others, who may be more willing/able to make commitments and be tied to them despite the future's uncertainty, are somehow less evolved and self actualized.

It is little more than what Harley refers to as Freeloaders vs. Buyers. It's great to be a Freeloader if that is what you want, but there is nothing wrong with being a Buyer. The problem arises only when a Buyer ends up in a relationship with a Freeloader <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

AGG,

you are so black and white. . . and pedantic. . .

first, go see the movie I suggested. . . and then tell us how the two fell in love by the end. .

very, very similar to devastated wife's experience. . . almost exactly. . .

wiftty

I would say my experience is just like hers also.

Up until last summer, I was dating half a dozen. Definitely not "spouse-hunting".

However, after my first date with L, I dropped all of the other without looking back.
He has all the qualities I want in a partner.

But I personally think there is something very disrespectful about a situation where one person wants marriage, and the other is content to date them forever without marriage.
I deserve more.

I'm a newbie here, but I've been reading this thread, and just wanted to comment on the above. I am in a semi-serious relationship with a man who has three children, two grown and one teen. I am in my early 40's and never had children. I (and I might be in the minority, I don't know) have never, ever, and hopefully will never ever expect to be "#1" to a parent over his children. I respect the bond between parent/child, and would never try and break that bond. I admire a parent who has a wonderful relationship with his children, and encourage him to spend as much time as possible with them, because every other weekend is just not enough. I would never ask him to choose between his kids and me, and would never expect him to include me in his "family" time, unless of course he invited me. Maybe it's because I have a pretty blessed full life outside of my relationship with him that I don't feel in the least bit threatened by his children - I can certainly fill my free time without him. Personally, I wouldn't respect a man who put his girlfriend before his relationship with his children.