It's been almost 18 months since D-day. During this time, CH and I have talked to 3 different counselors including Steve Harley. I've Plan A. I started it before I even knew about the A and continued it for too long. I've done an imperfect but adequate Plan B since August.

Recently, I've been seeing a new therapist. CH suggested him but hasn't been able to get himself to make an appointment. I like this therapist. He's heard of MB and actually seems to be a marriage counselor. He seems sensible and direct. He says things that make sense to me. With his help, I've come up with a new Plan for me.

I have finally come to the place where I will soon be drawing the dreaded line in the sand. I do not like the person I have become during this A. I don't like the anger and ill feelings that surge through me when I see or even think of CH. I have had enough. I need to move past the pain and anger. I need closure and peace. I have reached the point where I feel that I have done what I can to regain our marriage.

CH is back from his big trip. I was given a lot of mixed messages while he was gone. Now, CH agrees that we need to meet with each other. (He still can't quite make a therapy appointment.) We haven't set a date to meet. I'm not rushing it. CH eagerness is part of the data gathering.

Where it goes from here, I do not know. CH either needs to work on our marriage or be honest and let it go. I have a rough timeline and agenda. I'm think I know now, like I never did before, what I want from my marriage and my H. CH has the road map to recovery but needs to start the car. Is the battery dead? Will he put it in reverse or drive? As my therapist says, even no answer is an answer. The ball is in his court.

Why do I share this? I guess I just want a little input and a few thoughts thrown my way. It's not a MB success story. I just know that I cannot spend anymore time in Plan B. I admire the fortitude of the people who stick it out for a long time but it's not for me. For my peace of mind and my children's sake, I need to forge a new relationship with their father. I truly do need to move on.

Does this sound too weird?

not weird at all. everyone has a limit

Grape - are you saying you are ready for Plan D (Divorce), or are you saying you are ready to reach out to CH and try to get something going with him again?

He's been waiting for you to reach out to him, you know. Does he think for a moment that you would ever move on without him, no matter how long he stays on Marriage Vacation?
Mulan

(((GG)))
You say you are not a success story I disagree. It is the journey not the distination that defines the success. You have grown tremendously, you can see a future for yourself that is not totally dependant on being married to the father of your children. You probably know yourself better now than you ever have. I would bet money that you will work through the anger and lead the rest of your life without the burden of it.You are strong enough to stand up for your self and draw your line in the stand...that is the success of your plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think you are very brave for getting to a place that many others refuse to go.

You should always fold a losing hand.

{{{{{gg}}}}}

Hi grapegirl,

I agree with confused42 - you are absolutely a MB success. Instead of leaving immediately after D-day and consigning yourself to a lifetime of "what ifs," you can now say that you have put in enormous effort and can say you've done everything that you could do.

I do think there comes a point for many BS's where the fight is no longer worth it. Could they fight longer? Sure. But Plan B is still an interim point, a place of transition. It was your choice to enter it and it is your choice to leave - whenever *you* feel that it is time to be out of that place.

I totally understand your desire to forge a new relationship with the father of your children for their sake. Plan B is a "false reality" for kids, designed to either lead to a family based on married parents or a family based on divorced parents. It represents a transition point for kids, too, and staying there too long only delays the inevitable.

All this said, given the timeline, I wouldn't be surprised if a move towards D from you would snap your WH to his senses. My WH was floundering about 12 months after D-day and would likely still be floundering if I hadn't filed (I'd been doing a pretty crappy Plan B, and finally gave up).

So often it takes the BS giving up to finally bring the WS back - if it isn't too late (cf. Believer). I'd never advise anyone to file as some sort of tactic to save the marriage. But if that's the point to which you have naturally progressed...it's possible it doesn't mean the end for you two.

Blessings - you are in a tough place yet you continue to act with grace and courage.

G

Grape:

I don't understand what you are saying here.

What kind of RELATIONSHIP are you going to be able to have with your "CH" as you say?

After a really helacious day at work, I'm trying to get my thoughts together.

My cheating husband is a coward and a conflict avoider. Not much argument there. He ignores his children. He's involved when it suits him and has been in la-la land for a long time. The preparations for his trip occupied a lot of his time. It's over and he's at loose ends. This is a good time to strike. I believe that he would waffle over this forever.

What I want at this time is an indication of what direction our marriage is going in. The limbo we are in is not working for me. For myself, I am willing to work on this relationship. This has been a constant. The variable is CH. Is he willing to do any work on this marriage? Is he willing to address any of the Plan B points? Will he enforce NC with OW or any other woman? Can he manage to do counseling? Does he feel on his end that there is no hope for this marriage and we should divorce? As my therapist says, even no answer is an answer.

I am ready for some closure. We either move on together or I move on alone. I feel that we need to talk about where we are going. I am strong from the protection of Plan B and need to step forward for the battle. I cannot hide in the silence anymore. For CH, out-of-sight is out-of-mind. Talking may not save this marriage. I'd rather know that now than in 2 more years.

For my part, I see how much energy and anger I expend on all of this. I do not like that angry woman. I want to be able to go to the grocery store, a band concert or a soccer game and be amicable if I run into CH. If we are not husband and wife then we are still co-parents for life. My kids deserve some stability. I need to let go of the anger and work on forgiving. I cannot do this without breaking the silence and trying to get CH to say something...anything... It's the final piece.

I like the phrase from Dr. Phil, "There comes a point when you may have to draw a line and say, 'That's it. I'm done. I'm not mad at you. I withdraw my feelings...my emotions. You just go do whatever you're going to do because I'm not going to live like this anymore.'"

My counselor says that there can be no bluffing. I believe I am ready to act upon it. I can't take this half-life anymore.

As for the question about what kind of relationship do I see with my CH...Whatever happens, I see our family mutating. Among the kids I work with, I see the "good" divorces and the "bad" divorces. Actually, I don't think there are any good divorces, it's just a question of degrees. Obviously, kids are generally best in a solid family.

If our marriage survives, I wish it to be one that follows MB guidelines. I want POJA, at least 15 hours to together time. I want H to be more involved with our lives. I want him to balance his work and home lives better. It'll be hard work. We both would need a lot of growth and commitment.

If our marriage doesn't survive, I want H to be a better co-parent and ally. I think many times he doesn't call because he knows how much anger is in the house. If a court tells him he needs to see DD every other weekend, it's up to him. DD and I are together almost all of the time. I could use a little adult time and she could use a little dad time.

Raising kids is hard. It's good to have somebody to bounce ideas and thoughts against. There are so many activities that should not be tainted with anger. Our kids have a lot in front of them. There is room in every kid's life for has many people to love them as possible. I know one family that has done that. If I had to be divorced, that is the way I'd want to do it.

Then again, I can only control myself.

I deleted my previous post to you because basically that's what I believe.

I don't think that you will be able to FORCE your WH to do anything...

So very true. I can't force him to do anything but I can attempt to get answers to my questions. If he doesn't want to be married, I'd like him to have the courage to tell that to the world. If he thinks there is some small chance of recovery, let's explore that possibility. No answer is an answer.

I have wondered if perhaps pride might be in the way.

Sorry you deleted your post. I always get alot of perspective from your posts

Where, exactly, is CH now? Where is he living? How much is he involved with his OW and what do you know about this? I rarely see you mention this - it sounds like he just kinda disappeared one day for no particular reason.
Mulan

You know, Grape. I don't get a sense of WHO YOUR H IS. What does he believe in? What's in his heart? WHO will you be MARRIED TO?

About forcing...

Even if he ANSWERS your questions now, how can you know he's telling you the truth?

YOU want him to have courage...HE DOES NOT HAVE COURAGE..you wanting this is not going to make that so...

I'm trying to say that it's about the PROCEDURE..how you seem to going about this...

Why not BE STILL..like ARK says...WAIT IT OUT...

IMO, FORCING THIS will SPELL THE END OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP..IT WILL CREATE CONTEMPT FOR YOU..HE WILL FEEL PRESSURED..AND IT IS HUMAN NATURE, I THINK, ESPECIALLY BY A MIDDLE-AGED MAN, TO REBEL AGAINST THIS...

He needs to DO or NOT DO THIS..on his own..in his own time..

Set him free..if he loves you and wants you, HE WILL RETURN...

You may be long gone..but he will return..

Thank you Mimi and Mulan for your replies. I always appreciate posts that make me think. I've been working on this for a long time. I will take what you say into the process.

CH is living in an apartment about 5 minutes from our house. According to the kids, who went there on Christmas morning to pick up their presents, it is a barren, weird place. CH uses pool lounges for couches. That was the only time the boys have ever been there. DD hadn't been there for 11 months. They stayed for maybe 30 minutes.

I believe CH is still seeing OW. I can see from certain credit card bills that he goes down that way about every 2-3 weeks. At least, that's when he goes to the warehouse store there and charges something. My gut feeling is that there is some but not a lot of contact. CH did say in May that she had OTHER boyfriends and it didn't make him happy.

I can tell you where he probably is right now: work. Work is the blanket he wraps tightly around him. The excuse that pre-empts all other things. There's more to this than he wants to think. In the words of Jan Karon, I think he's too tired to run but too scared to stop.

Honestly, I don't really know who my husband is. I think his favorite color is blue but I might be wrong these days. I believe that he hid a lot of himself away for a long time. There are some big sexual and insecurity issues. He can be chameleon-like. Most people think of him as a quiet, helpful, nice man. As a conflict avoider, he will do most anything to please.

Perhaps he's using this midlife crisis to discover who the really CH is. While he's generally quiet, sometimes, especially in foreign countries, he turns into this loud, ugly American kind of guy. Especially with waitresses. I don't like this side of him. It's such a huge personality swing.

Recently, he did this big eco-challenge for his work. It was strenuous with hard physical activities. This is the man who has never taken his kids for a bike ride, wouldn't walk the dogs and refused to go into the water at the beach or pool. When we had a family gym membership, he went maybe twice. I have done most of the hard physical labor at our house. I hike, workout, garden, golf, dance and play. When I asked him to take a class in kayaking, he wouldn't. Dancing? No. Now, he brags about his bike rides.

I don't know who this man is. I think I might like to know him if he could be honest and true. I don't trust that though.

I have read Ark's stillness post many, many times. I just don't know how to get there. I feel whatever stillness I possessed has been blown away. I would love some pointers on how I can get there. I really, really would. How can I be still but not go crazy? How do I become still and lose the anger?

I am not setting any ultimatums yet. Maybe what I want to do is start some dialog, some discussion. During my Plan B, I've put up a big black wall. I don't think he has the will to even knock on it. I honestly believe that therapy would do us both a world of good.

And no, he didn't send his kids any post cards from New Zealand. He called the boys to say goodbye but wouldn't leave a message on the machine for DD. He hasn't called to say that he's back.

While he says wants to get together and talk, he hasn't emailed back about a time. I've been married to this man for nearly 30 years. I'm still sorting this all out. At this point, I can't exactly say why I married him. It seemed like a good idea at the time. What done is done. That was then, this is now.

Does it make any sense to anybody?

Can I just hijack the thread to get a bit of perspective too?

Someone said "you can't be in Plan B forever". CAN'T I? Because the thing is, if WH continues this A with the OW, I don't think I want a relationship with him. Ideally (and before all of this hit, and before I went into Plan B) I was a strong believer in the fact that if nothing else, we are still co-parents together. But the fact of the matter is that having an affair - whether it's with this woman or any woman, I don't know - has turned my lovely H into a horrible, horrible MONSTER. I can't have a relationship with him. I am NOT angry, but I just cannot expose myself to him. In my Plan B letter, I told WH that I am protecting two things I hold most precious: the love and respect I feel for the REAL him, and the love and respect I feel for MYSELF. At the moment, I am showing myself love and respect by removing myself from this man.

So... if this A, or subsequent As, continue, am I wrong in continuing to stay dark because I know that guilt (or whatever the heck it is) makes him a horrible person? The other day, when I was explaining about being "dark" to D18, I told her, "If Dad chooses the OW forever, then he is out of my life forever". It came out very firmly, and I realized that I actually MEANT IT.

Orchid: Given the above, is that what u r ready to take back? R U willing to settle for part of your H and the other part an Xws at best who is a conflict avoider and a coward?


Orchid: This isn't working 4 u. Where is your boundary? R U ready to implement it?


Orchid: Ok, ready for closure....if he is still out there and not closed, r u still ready to close? What does close mean 4 u?

If the WS is in the out of sight out of mind range..... is he really ready to come home? Then the next question is, r u ready 4 him to come home as is?


Orchid: It becomes wasted energy when you have reached a decision but don't enact on it. Up til then, it is more of a preseravation tactic. You don't need to forgive a WS. That's a big mistake often made here on MB. The BS tries to forgive their spouse but end up forgiving the WS. What's there to 4give a WS for?

Your mind and heart are almost in sync. Need to ID your real boundaries and implement. This takes time and you can't even rush yourself.


Orchid: Dr Phil is correct. I prefer to call it a turning point where the mind and heart get in sync. So long as you get the picture. For me the single boundary was NOT to have the OW in MY LIFE.

You MC is correct.... no bluffing. Don't bring yourself to the WS level. Be wise with your strageties.

JMHO,
L.

I love MB. There are so many helpful people. So many things to think about.

I've been trying to think what my boundaries are. What exactly do I want? What do I want from my husband? I don't want to rush this but I don't want to spend my entire life in Plan B. While I admire people who stick it out, I don't want to be years down the pike, have H decided he's ready to come back and realize I don't want him.

I think the boundary I want to set right now is counseling. I believe there have always been underlying problems in our M. We need to poke at these issues to even start anything. I think a 3rd party mediator could really help us.

I can't think anymore about this this morning. It takes me a while to process things.

My heart and mind are not yet in sync. I love the way Orchid puts it.

And River, our WS/XWS cannot be put out of our lives forever. If you don't have property, children or animals in common maybe you can. When you have a shared history, there will always be contact. Would you not go to your DD's wedding because WS was coming? Look at the Dr. Phil quote.

This is the CONTROL issue..why I have been encouraging you to let go. Could you be trying to make him into somebody that HE IS NOT. Being with HIM will take Accepting him for who he is. Can you take him as he is? That's what I had to learn. I spent many years trying to mold my H into who I wanted him to be. In letting go and focusing in on myself, he has returned with all his frailties but he is less defensive and angry and actually a better person than I thought he was. He struggles less with trying to please me and presenting a fake facade. HE SEEMS MORE REAL AND GETS THE SENSE THAT I LIKE HIM....

I'm back. I had some work stuff to do.



I found Melody Beattie's books to be extremely helpful with this such Codependent No More and The Language of Letting Go. For me, the anger resulted from FRUSTRATION from being unable to CONTROL my H. It's the old FRUSTRATION-AGGRESSION thing. I had to learn that you can't control people or events. Do you happen to be a child of an alcoholic? I spent many of my growing of years thinking that I could make people into the way that I WANTED THEM TO BE....MY, MY, MY..I HAVE BEEN SO SELF-RIGHTEOUS and "WRONG" (Steve Harley's description of me).

In your new post, you mention counseling. My last thought on this, Grape, is that counseling is useless for those who are not motivated to change in counseling. Although counseling might be helpful to YOU, that's not to say that your H will find it to be helpful. HE HAS TO WANT TO CHANGE, GRAPE! AGAIN I SAY, AS YOU WELL KNOW, YOU CAN'T FORCE THIS..YOU JUST CAN'T.

This is my POV on this..

I wish you well. You deserve all the best in life...

Grape, I think your WH has shown that he is a 100% conflict avoider and in many ways a coward, too. He would rather just let his family go away than put himself through the discomfort of cleaning up the mess he has made.

Cowardice is not the stuff of which husbands (or wives) are made. He has shown that he will not fight for you and will not fight for your family, but instead will just run and hide.

As others here have said, if he cannot find courage within himself you are not going to be able to put it there for him. You will have to decide if this is a man you can live with "as is".

I think you have been carrying 90% of the load in your marriage, Grape, for a very long time, instead of the 50% load that each of you was supposed to carry -- and when you finally set down your load, you were forced to see how little WH was really carrying all along.

And I do not think that being "friends" with WH someday is a worthy goal. You will never reach that point, Grape, no matter what you think you have seen with other couples. All that would do is show your children that if things don't work out, well, just move on and still be pals. No big deal. Spouses are interchangeable and easily replaced. No different from trading in an old car for a new one.

This man has done terrible damage to you and your children with his cowardice and conflict avoidance. Is this the kind of man you want as a "friend?" Do you want to show your children that it's okay for someone to treat their family like this because hey, in the end you can all still be "friends?"

But you do not have to live this way.

You have the choice of taking him back "as is," and hope that maybe this time he won't lie to you and ignore you.

Or, you can consider what life might be like either with just you and your children, or - maybe in the future - with a man who IS willing to be there for you and help you no matter what, and who will not set down his share of the load and be content to let YOU struggle to carry it.

Good luck with whatever you decide - and remember, you do not have to decide today.
Mulan