Last weekend my wife and I were at a bookstore with our son to hang out a bit. Son was watching tv in another room and I stayed with him while FWW was looking at books in the other room.

The OM was there. He saw her, didn't see me or son, and said something to her. She quickly replied and he immediately took off, leaving the store.

I saw, but she didn't know I saw. I decided to wait and see what she would do. That was Saturday. She never mentioned it.

Finally today I was getting an anxiety attack and I called him. Yeah, might not have been a good idea. Anyway, he tried to deny it, when I persisted in knowing about the bookstore, he said that he didn't say anything. I knew he had asked her if it was a good time to talk, so I asked him what were his intentions with talking to her. He said that was between him and FWW.

I then called FWW and very calmly explained how I felt about this contact. He had called her right before I did and told her I had threatened his work (I did tell him that I would talk to his superiors if he insisted in contacting my wife). She felt she hadn't been dishonest, that it was an accidental encounter and that was it.

She then goes on about how this isn't going anywhere, we are just hurting each other, etc. She also begins to tell me how painful it is that I told her she can't go back to work at the University (because the OM works in same dept). She says we need to decide something. So I come home to talk to her.

She finally states that she cannot be happy in a marriage where she feels her rights as a human are taken away. She is referring to my refusal to allow her to work at the University as long as OM is there. Shes tough this time and says we need to get a D if this boundary is not removed.

I finally say she could go back to work if she'd agree to a couple counseling sessions with Harley together. She is shocked by this, but then still says she doesn't know.

Now I'm shocked. She just told me we need to D because she wants this job. So I say ok, lets remove that problem, you can go back to work. And now she still isn't sure what she wants!

Again she tells me that she isn't sure if she can love me the way she did when we first married. That she is scared and fearful, etc.

I'm so tired of this ride that I'm just numb right now. She is off to pickup our son, grandma was watching him while we talked.

Life sucks right now.

How about Plan B?

She's still in contact.

No withdrawal.

She sounds and acts like an active, card carrying WS.

The A is not really dead.

This is situation is precisely what Plan B is designed for.

Protect yourself and your DS.


With prayers,

How do I even achieve a plan B? She lives with us still. Hasn't left the house. Do I just wait until she ups and leaves?

Sundog...

Feel your pain from Saturday. Especially your self-inflicted wound by calling OM. Do not ask for more pain when your plate is full, please. Motherly, but true.

You made a boundary, "(I did tell him that I would talk to his superiors if he insisted in contacting my wife)"

Did you enforce it?

That is your responsibility. Please do it. It is not revenge, it is informing and sharing truth.

You do not have a FWW, you have a WW. I do not say this to hurt you. My intention is to give you truth that you're thirsting for...your wife had contact and did not tell you about it. You believe that contact means the affair continues, is that correct?

I believe it.

To end an affair you expose. In fact, with contact, you re-expose. Your wife has to commit to no contact and Transparency...she lied by omission on Saturday by not walking into the tv room and telling you immediately. Transparency.

Boundaries.

"She felt she hadn't been dishonest, that it was an accidental encounter and that was it."

Did you discuss accidental encounters ahead of time? "If you are approached by OM, no contact means that you do not speak, you remove yourself from his presence. Transparency means you immediately report contact. Both are honest actions that I will honor. This is what I need to rebuild my trust in you."

Her choice.

Do not buy into her beliefs. You have your own.

Had you exposed at the University, would she have lost her job, OM's job or both?

She feels her rights are taken away...please listen and repeat to her. Intently...striving first to understand and then be understood.

"I cannot be happy in a marriage where I feels my rights as a human are taken away."

"I hear you believe your rights have been taken away."

"Yes. I just said that."

"I believe you chose not to return to work at the university because OM is there."

"I did not choose...you made me."

"I respect you too much to believe that. I cannot make yu do anything. You chose no contact because you desired to save the marriage. That's what I believe."

Now, how does that compare to what you really believe...that you made her? You can't control anyone besides yourself. I'm stumped.

"She is referring to my refusal to allow her to work at the University as long as OM is there."

"says we need to get a D if this boundary is not removed."

You can't make boundaries for her. That's not humanly impossible. You made boundaries for yourself.

If she chooses to continue the affair, then she crosses your boundary. Your job is to respect more without SD's...

Selfish demand...that demands another person changes.

Boundary...demands you change.

Which is realistic? More respect (seperate and equal), less buying into the belief that you both make each other do stuff...'cuz that didn't work when you were bending your cousin's arm behind his back when you were 9, either. You didn't make him say uncle...he chose to do so rather than withstand more pain...and to get free to then hurt you back properly.

Choices.

More listen and repeat:

"I finally say she could go back to work if she'd agree to a couple counseling sessions with Harley together."

You moved your boundary. No exposure, affair continues. Okay. I get it. I honor your effort. Negotiating her return to the marriage.

"She is shocked by this, but then still says she doesn't know."

"Now I'm shocked. She just told me we need to D because she wants this job."

"I hear that you want your job more than our marriage, or my trust."

Instead, you said:"Ok, lets remove that problem, you can go back to work."

Now I'm confused. "Your choices are your own. You already know I am feeling devastated, confused, terrible pain and betrayal. Your job represents access to your affair partner to me. I fully realize that is your choice."

"Again she tells me that she isn't sure if she can love me the way she did when we first married."

"I hear that you fear not being able to love me again the way you did when we first married."

"That she is scared and fearful, etc." Listen and repeat.

It isn't about you...she is telling you about HER.

When you really get that, the pain falls down to where it is giving you real information, not exaggerated or adding self-inflicted wounds from your belief that she's right, something you're doing or not doing.

Let go the power that isn't yours and take up that which is God given. You are not the cause, the control or the cure for her. She is her own. You are your own. Seperate and equal.

"I'm so tired of this ride that I'm just numb right now. She is off to pickup our son, grandma was watching him while we talked.

Life sucks right now."

Expose, sundog...look up reallyconcerned's thread and know that this matters. I didn't read your whole thread. Just saw this post. You can tell me I'm ignorant...and you would be right...uhm, this time.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On your side...the ride is a journey full of great lessons, if you take in the view from the inside...

LA

Good post as usual LA. I think it was an accidental meeting, and the whole thing escalated from there. But there is a way to talk this through and reach an agreement.

I definately think it was an accidental meeting Believer, but the ripple effect it had was pretty noticable.

It was after that encounter that she said a few days later that she didn't love me like she once did. It was after that encounter that she found the strength to demand that she be allowed to return to work. Whether she intended it or not, the pull (addiction) was temporarily revived in my opinion.

I do think the pull was not as strong as when they were in the full affair, however. She was not the stone cold woman I saw back then. After we discussed the divorce option (see above posts) she left the house to drive and think.

When she cools off and comes home we both break down a bit and say we want to stay together. She is very affectionate and close. The option to go back to work has been left open to her at this point.

We have a good evening and watch a movie in bed. The movie was kind of lame (Cellular) so we turn it off and talk. I tell her about when I was a child and my dad and I used to go flying to a cabin in his old Cessna 185.

She starts bawling. I mean the type of crying where your lungs cant even keep up, you just start heaving and moaning. I just comfort her and after a while she calms down.

This morning she was suprisingly kind and affectionate. Like she had been before they accidentally met. She could tell I was still hurt and sad. I wasn't trying to appear this way, but I was just plain exhausted at the thought of going through this [censored] again.

She asks me what is wrong. She used to flip things around and accuse me of controlling her when I voiced my concerns in the past, so I tell her I don't want to talk for that reason. She says she won't react that way this time. I tell her the thought of her working at the same place as OM is overwhelming. I tell her this is how I would feel if she was working with him, that I can't handle it because it would tear me up inside.

She holds me and tells me she won't work there then. She wants us to care and protect each other, etc. I really want to believe her, and her eyes were sincere, but time will tell.

I'm down. But I'm hopeful that this experience showed that the lure of the A is weakening and she is able to see through the fog when it closes in.

It sounds very promising to me. She is trying to care for and protect you. The whole things was unfortunate, but you got through it together.

Is she working at all now? Isn't there somewhere else she could work that would be as satisfying?

It's the only job she's known, and she comes from a country where people rarely change jobs. I mention that because she is a very traditional person, she was comfortable there. I, on the other hand, enjoy changing jobs as long as I feel I'm moving in an upward direction.

The whole last 24 hours just seemed surreal though. One minute she's fighting to the point of wanting a divorce if she can't work where she wants. Then next morning she is telling me she wont work there if it would hurt me.

I am hopeful that the reason she is more comfortable with this is because not working there is now her decision, not mine. She is extremely sensitive to feeling controlled (her parents fault, not mine). If she pulls out the 'I wanna work there again' speech in the future I'm going to pass out.

I'm hopeful too, believer. We'll see.

"She holds me and tells me she won't work there then. She wants us to care and protect each other, etc. I really want to believe her, and her eyes were sincere, but time will tell."

Can you act on this? Strike while the iron is hot? If you wait for "the right time" her pendulum will swing back the other way again.

I think you may be in one of those situations in which Dr H would advise moving.

Well,

I called her at home a few minutes ago. I could tell she took a while to pick up, and it sounded like she switch from another call.

So I said, 'Hi, were you on the other line?'.

She says, 'Yeah, I was talking to him.' (She never calls him by name, he is always 'him', or 'that person').

She called him because she says she wanted to understand what was going on and why he was trying to talk to her in the bookstore. Okay... She also wanted to see if his story matched mine in regards to the two phone calls I've made to him in the last six months.

He confirmed everything (she says). And he wanted to talk to her to see how she was. She said he didn't think it was right that I told him I would expose to his workplace. I calmly explained to her that he had been explained the consequence of continued attempts at contact with her, it was his choice to take that risk. She was actually pretty agreeable.

I had the recorder on for the last few days. This conversation of theirs is waiting for me at home. You can imagine how anxious I am to hear what was really said. If it shows signs of a continued A then it's gonna get hairy.

The sad part is these things no longer hit me as hard anymore. I still get numb, sad, and a hopeless feeling. But it's softened compared to the emotions around d-day. The only thing that truly saddens me would to not be with my son 100% of the time should things get to the point of D.

I'm still holding my trump card. I have all his emails to my wife from the pre d-day era, about 15 of them. They are detailed and make it very clear his intentions. A couple of them even describe his sexual fantasy for them to one day carry out. He is a professor (dr) at the university. I will send these emails along with my description of the situation to all faculty in his dept and to the administration (chancellor). I'd be suprised if he could hold his chin up after his collegues read that stuff knowing the woman is married and with a son in a life threatening situation.

Anyway, I am soon off. Good weekend all.

Came home, got the recorder. The conversation they had was about 1 hour and consisted mostly of him convincing her to leave me and he'd rent a house or whatever. She flirted with him, didn't discourage his comments and let him talk about her romantically.

I came home, called her mother and explained it. I then called her to come home. Told her I was hurt and to please hurry. She thought it was a physical injury, came rushing home all panicked (I just didn't want her to bail if she detected something happening).

I told her I heard it all. It was over, I was done. I was empty, little emotion, just resigned with a dash of anger. She thought I was going to take our son, so she took off first (he was still in her car).

10 minutes later she is bawling and telling me she will worship me until she dies. She'll do anything, adore me till I die, etc. Just don't leave her. She says she was so angry over our first years of marriage that it always got in the way of her love. She said seeing me ready to leave brought all her love pouring out, she can't stand to be away from me etc.

She finally comes home (talking all the way on phone). Begs for another chance. I tell her if she calls OM right now and tells him this, we can begin. She call him, with speaker on and tells him to forget about her, she loves her family, etc. I take the phone and tell him that she came back to beg me to stay with her. Leave us alone.

I gotta go, she's still upstairs talking to her mother, she may come down any second.

At least she passed the litmus test this time, eh Believer? Pray for us, I hope this is the last disaster.

I really think this has nothing to do with the other man. I think it has to do with a family dealing with a sick child, and trying to make it through. The statistics say that the marriage doesn't make it.

I will be praying for you both, and your son. I really, really think that you will make it. Hold on to her and comfort her, and let her comfort you.

She is still a WS and will continue to take you on that roller coaster ride of an A.

The question for you is, how much longer will you allow her to keep you on that ride?

R U done with plan A? Have you identified your boundaries? Is she only coming back to the M because of her needs and not that of you and the family?

You must set your boundaries and stick to it. Otherwise a WS will be let back into your lives and your spouse will disappear forever.

L.

Thanks for the advice, Orchid.

I need a bit more info on how to do what you are recommending. She called him together with me and told him it was over. Told him to forget about her and she loved her family and wanted to stay here.

Should I write up a list of boundaries for me regarding NC and such and have her agree to it or sign it? Or should it be verbal?

She had her opportunity to go to him last night. She called him immediately as she left the house. 10 minutes later she called me and just wanted to hear me. She said she couldn't stand the thought of being a moment without me. Said she loved everything about me, it was very sincere (at the moment).

Advice please.

sundog,

I am in no position to give advice but your WW sounds a lot like mine when crunch time hits. My WW fans the flame of fantasy right up to the moment I am about to kick her out the door and she does a 180 and begs and pleads to stay, promises to never do it again, etc. She does do it again, of course but she will just beg and plead yet again. My WW wants to keep the fantasy alive but does not seem to want to fulfill it. I can't figure out why. My WW is afraid of change. She wants to keep what she has and yet it isn't exactly what she wants.

Changed the thread title due to the last couple of days events

So I ended up writing out a letter telling my wife how much I loved her and our family, but that I was exhausted after a year of this A business. I told her that I have a few boundaries that I need in order to feel protected, not to control you, etc.

The boundaries were as follows:
1. Never again work in same place as OM.
2. No contact with OM in any way.
3. If OM initiates contact, end it immediately.
4. Any contact, accidental or intentional, should be immediately told to me.
5. We read His Needs Her Needs together and discuss each chapter.

As soon as I gave her the letter she became the stone cold person I just can't stand anymore. She says in order for her to agree to this, she needs to state her own 'boundaries'. She wants the phones changed to her name (because she realized I recorded them) and she doesn't agree with number 1 from the list above.

I refuse to agree to that. My terms are non-negotiable. She says there appears to be no solution then. I agree and I grab my luggage (bags already packed because our son is on an organ transplant list). I wasn't bluffing this time. I just wanted peace and I was exhausted of this side of her.

I kiss my son and hold him. He is 4 and he hugs me, he can tell something is wrong. By this time my wife's initial anger is fading and her sadness is increasing. She starts mentioning that I should stay, we just need some time. I tell her the condition to my marriage is on the paper she left upstairs. I leave.

I go to the neaby dive bar (I'm not a bar person, but hey). I call a buddy and he hangs out with me while I drink six beers and four shots of Jagermeister. My brother also comes down, to make sure I don't drive and to support me.

During this time my wife phones me a couple times. I don't pick up, but I listen to the voice mail. She says she'll agree to anything I want, anything. She loves our family and me so much that she'll do anything. Stone cold woman is gone again, what is with that?

Another hour goes by and she comes in the bar and hands me an envelope and says 'please respond'. I open it up and she has signed my letter of boundaries and wrote below: 'With all my love, as deep as it is for you.'

The rest of the night is a blur to me. I woke up naked in bed next to my wife the next morning. Apparently my brother drove me home, I made love to my wife for an hour and a half and then we passed out.

I was very worried about how I didn't remember anything. I asked her if I was gentle during SF. She said yes, it was wonderful. I said, 'damn, I wish I could remember it, then.'

She was affectionate and very loving the rest of the day, and today as well. I am too gun shy to say I think this is all behind us, but I am hopeful. She said facing the reality of life without me made her feel emotions for me she thought she didn't have.

So that's where we are now.

Wow.

I'm wondering about the whole latina thing. I wonder if the women might require to a more forceful stance. I know that is generalizing though.