oh puhlease...

saying to him that it seems ironic that you would want to be chaplain when you don't believe in the basics...is not now nor never the root cause of a suicide...

NOR
would be saying I DO NOT want to see pictures of any of your GIRLFRIENDS...

your own boundaries do not cause someone to kill themselves....

you do know that don't you....

tell me the truth and I will snap...
man what a good defense mechanism he has going for him...

ARK

I KNOW it. I am just so scared of him in this way.
I am sure this makes me sound weak. I have, I thought, been so strong throughout this whole thing.

I am ready to get tough with him. I haven't begged-anything yet. I just haven't been tough, either. A difference I am seeing has not helped me. Emotionally, maybe it is the kick I need.

Own my own boundaries. I like that.

So when he tells me he is gonna snap, what do I say?

You don't have to say anything. Change the subject. After all, he made it clear that he no longer wants you in his life as someone he can turn to for help and support. That's what a divorce means. Let him live with all the consequences of his choice.

Another consequence of his choice is having to see his children on a schedule. What he wants is beside the point. What your attorney can negotiate is what he will have to live with, and a visitation schedule is pretty standard stuff, IIRC.

honestly intexas...

you don't have to be tough or mean or anything to muse out loud the irony of him wanting to be a chaplain...

the fact you didn't double over giggling at the thought and then when he asked what's so funny...you could have on nothing...just the thought of you counseling people on their marriages...it's just seems a little funny to me..

what's he gonna say to that..

whhhaaaaaaa I'm gonna snap cause you said that....!!!!!

say ME TOO BABY ME TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARK

In Canada, if someone threatens suicide you're supposed to call 911.

It's the law, in fact. I dunno where you live, but you may consider it.

It would pretty much put an end to that childish ploy.

The truth, when spoken kindly, is not a LB.

Words to live by: "And the truth shall set you free."

And the suicide thing is a tactic. He's using that as a justification for his current choices. This is ironic, because his choices are actually the cause of the greatest stress and unhappiness in his life. He needs to wake up to reality if he truly wants to avoid "snapping one day."

And your boys are going to be just fine--they have you.

God bless,
CSJ

Now why I haven't I thought if that way before? I was always afraid to say anyhthing--thought it would push him away even more. Thought he'd own true on his threats. It was like a mind battle for me. He at one point had my mind convinced this was my fault. I didn't keep that mindset very long, thank goodness.

He doesn't say it very much anymore. Only when the going gets tough. When things are not going in his favor. Because, remember--he's the one hurt here. He's the victim. I am the evil wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to all of you for putting it into perspective for me.

See if your decree can specify that he does the driving.....ask for it to be included. Let him drive. He wants the divorce.

And report his threat of suicide. Yeah, if the military did a background check, that might just show up and sink that little ship of lunacy that he's on.

Wouldn't it be great if, right after he gets off the phone w/ you, the EMTs or police knock on his door to cart him away to the hospital?

I know something of what you feel. I have always believed that us girls look out for each other, and while I don't want to hijack your thread, I just don't understand either why someone who knows that their behaviour with my H is causing the marriage distress, would keep up the behaviour.

I am a person with very strong feelings, and while I have disliked some people in my life, I don't think that I have actually hated anyone before, but I think that I do now.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this one?

Georgina

Okay. Just gotta share this. I hope this was acceptable behavior on my part. It was the first time I have verbally spouted back.

WH and I were talking about his loss of job at the end of semester. I said that I am sure they will take you back if you pass the tests one day. He said maybe. i said--don't they like you? Do they all know about OW? (I only exposed to principal and superintendant). He said yes--but they all think we are already divorced.
I say-oh!
He says--because in the Bible, i doubt they had to wait for a judge in old testament times.
I said--well good thing we don't live in Old testament times, or you'd both be stoned.

Was that just horrible of me?
Because it felt good. I ain't gonna lie.
It felt really good.

And I PROMISE that is the worst I have said yet.

Bowing out now in case it was totally the wrong thing to say. I'm just tired of cowering away at his verbal assaults/guilt trips/etc.

ROTFL!

You go, girl!

I don't know if it was the 'right thing' to say but I think it was great!

Uh, that was just Cinderella the real person speaking....not Cinderella the wise person speaking. Not that wise people aren't real - they are.....but I LOVE IT!!!!!

Okay, good. I was hoping this wouldn't be one of those moments scoffed at! Thanks for finding humor in it Cinderella!

Wh is just crazy these days. He e-mailed me this--this was all the e-mail said:

INtexas, just remember that sometimes divorce is necessary but not permanent.

Hmm....If anyone should have that mindset it is ME! Not HIM! In other words, what he is saying is he wants to try to make it work with her (necessary) but if it doesn't, then he'll try with me later (not permanent).

And that is NOT the type of maariage I am interested in.

He doesn't have much longer to wake up. His lawyer sent the final decree to my lawyer today. He is forging on ahead.

But I am feeling much stronger this week. I'll be okay.

Oh Intexas...

That was the best!! I think that qualifies as Orchid's famous reverse babble!

Funny how he is picking a sentence or idea here and there from the Bible to justify his actions...you just picked another key point to blow his theory out of the water!! Good Job!!

I have followed you from pre-delivery...and you are doing so well! You are getting stronger by the day and I think if you learn to speak truth back to him (in love, of course) you will feel even more empowered. What have you got to lose? He's gone, pushing for divorce etc. Your words of truth and reality aren't gonna make him more gone!! Love busters would, not truth and RB.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks S&S. I still am glad I said that!

Just got this e-mail from WH. What'cha all think of this. Tiffany is OW and Verlin--i am guessing her WH's real name (I thought it was Michael).

So while there is some sweet stuff in there--there is also the OW and his desire to have us both.

And this comes after last night him telling me this is all your fault, intexas, and you know that. You just can't admit you pushed me out, because if you did, you wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

I don't think I'll reply to this one. What'cha think?

Have you read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough?

How about responding with a letter like he suggests?

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one’s life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a “stranger”… a competitor ... a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let’s look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to “fool around” or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I’m sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, “I think I’ll die if you don’t marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don’t turn me down,” etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, “Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I’ve only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I’ll go straight out and kill myself!”

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to “sell himself” to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn’t love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: “John [or Diane], I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn’t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I’m aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I’m going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He’ll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.”

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can’t believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn’t necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.

“But there must be a catch,” he thinks. “It’s too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she’ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She’s really weak, you know, and she’ll crack under pressure.”

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously “grabby” lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, “How can I get out of this mess?” he now asks, “Do I really want to go?” Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.
This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace.” Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture.

Believer,
thanks so much for this post. I need to get that book!
it is just what I needed to hear today.
WH has been diagnosed with SA and bipolar. he is in IC, but still wants a divorce. I filed yesterday. he called today saying he's "not done". yet he still says he needs to "work on his issues" and then after the divorce is final that we can date and start new.

this is so confusing...

Ha ha ha.....that's funny. My then WS knew even then the Bible's penalty for adultery. So I reminded him as you did yours. Yea, I felt the relief then also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

When I saw the Ws try to twist even the Bible's principals to enable his A, I got real angry. Funny it seems I got more angry when it affected my child and God more than me. Seemed the more I the WS hurt others, the angier I got. That woke me up to the fact that I needed to put value back into me bacause I was just as important. That I should NOT allow the WS to step on me. I certainly was putting up a fuss and a fight when I caught him being disrespectful to others. An awwhhhh ha moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now iff that's the toughtest you've been, we've got to toughen you up somemore.....ready for more Reverse babble? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



take care,
L.

That was exactly what I was doing, when we were in "recovery". I was so desparate and scared, I would follow him around the house. I think I knew in my heart that he was not truly committed to doing what was necessary to be happy again, and I was scared of another false recovery, so I would try to get him to follow through on his promises (extraordinary precautions, etc.) and he would tell me what I wanted to hear to get me off his back, and then when he did not do it, I was even more fearful.

I am not that woman anymore, thank goodness (it is actually painful to think back on how things were before he left.) The sun does not set on any man. I would like our marriage to work, but I also want a real M, where my H is doing his part, ackowledging his role in our problems, and is committed to sticking with me, even when things get rough. I deserve this, whether with my H, or someone else. I will not settle for crumbs anymore. I would rather be alone.

I have read the Dobson book many times, but really needed
this today, so thanks for posting it.

Funny how so many of the WH rush forward with no thought
in the world about what they are doing to their wives and
family, then... begin to waver a bit and aren't so sure
what to do and want to keep a thread of attachment, just
in case.

Computerguruwife- M WH is also bipolar and possibly SA.
If you'd like to correspond, please see my thread "OW
not letting go quietly".

Slammed