((((cantgiveup))))

((((RC))))

I'm stalking tonight...hope you don't mind. My H works on Tuesday nights and I post too much these nights.

I'm so glad RC found and posted to your thread, CGU. Great name, hard to abbreviate affectionately. Hmmm.

moveforward, believer and sundog have given you very important advice and information. You now have some answers...you are not powerless or helpless. I know you feel that way...been there, felt that.

I'd like to give you back some of your power..show you your choices...the no contact letter is essential, and I believe the job choice is essential...consequences of an affair. Your friend, the boss's wife, might need another call, that inaction can wreck two marriages as much as the WS actions.

Believe believer and moveforward...contact means A continues...if that means more snooping, and you believe in Plan A, then computer software, PI, willing friends and family...what needs to be done, needs to be done.

It isn't unreasonable, if that's what you fear, to not believe your WH. That is reasonable, given the secrecy and lies inherent in As. Tell me what you fear, feel pain or confused about. Helps to know truth when you feel overwhelmed.

RC's advice on how to really Plan A is important. That is why it is kicking your tushy (great title to a thread, btw). Chart your goals...exposure, no contact, transparency, withdrawal, recovery...

I believe to have the least painful Plan A for you is to get your intent straight and your beliefs aligned. The goal chart isn't simple or easy...as well as those landmarks, you have a lot of self growth to do...which includes expanding your knowledge of yourself. Why it hurts, where it hurts, how much, how often and what is your part in the pain.

One thing I spotted was your pain from your WH's statemnt about not being in love with you, maybe not wanting to be married, etc. Those are his thoughts, not yours. Yours are different. Know you both are seperate and equal. You either choose to believe what he says as your truth or you don't.

I recommend leaving his truth to him. What I hear him saying is that he's confused, he's been living and making choices from his feelings, which will lead a human into a morass of confusion, so that's what he is thinking/feeling right now.

Your reaction is yours. Your feelings are yours. You feel them. He doesn't cause, control or cure them. You do. He has to do all that for himself. In marriage, we roll right over the reality of this and into enmeshment. Can't see where we end and your beloved begins. That's fantasy. Like an A. Doesn't change the reality you two are seperate and equal, two humans in a marriage.

Respect what he says as his truth not THE truth. Your pain will lessen greatly, along with the rejection and fears causing that pain. You'll have a reasonable pain, not overwhelming pain...disabling, confusing and helpless kind. Like your WH may be in.

Commit to not reacting from your emotions (because then you would be in his boat and that's yucky right now). Commit to choosing your actions from your beliefs, and minding those carefully.

To do this, you have to stop focusing on WH and focus on you. RC knows how difficult this is...she's getting to where it is her belief that if he would be different, she would be different. It isn't a truth in life. We're different when we choose to be different...which then makes our lives different.

Your expectations are kicking your tushy, too. You though you both had made huge progress over Retrouvaille weekend. You measured, expected, found relief in a belief...and then plunged when you then judged no progress, total reversion, all by his actions and words.

Stop judging him. Don't read, assume or mindread. His thoughts, feelings and beliefs are not your domain. They are his. Respect that you are not responsible for them. You are responsible for what your own...because you can only control you. You are looking at what you want (which is the marriage), but expecting to get it in the way you want it, how you want it and when you want it. I did this. Whoa. Did I. My tushy is still sore.

Let that go. You want to save your marriage...to Plan A...those are small steps you take each day, the rest of it is filled with seperating you from him in your mind, stay focused on your feelings as information...they tell you stuff about your beliefs (that's what causes them), and get to know what belief is behind each one and if that belief is valid. Healthy. Adult.

You'll be surprised what you'll find. You'll have your hands full and will not focus on WH. Please. If you want Plan A to be fulfilling and successful, your intent is to not MAKE your WH into H...that's manipulation. Your intent is to develop your code and act from it. Doesn't look any different from the outside, but your intent matters.

RC, you listening, love? If your real intent (and she's honest to the hilt, like you, CGU) is to manipulate to get the results you want (save your marriage) you will fail. Absolutely. My belief. I almost did. Then I got it. Just Learning (my hero who saved me from myself) got through to me.

That's why I'm stalking and preaching. Oh, wait...I'm sharing. You're listening. Your choice. My choice.

If your top EN is Openness and Honesty (O&H) then be that here and in your life. If SF represents acceptance, that he's choosing you...then accepting and choosing him will help fill that need in you for now. The more you respect he has his stuff and you have yours...and that neither one causes the other to react or act...we have influence, not control...then you'll stop feeling deprived, thrown away, replaced, lost or powerless. You'll have taken your power back. Maybe for the first time in your life, as it was for me.

LA

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

cgu, Oh yeah, I like you nic and your title also. Plan A is giving me a nice kicking too. Big stuff it is. Big stuff. And my insistence to control is giving me a great bashing accross the head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Mutliple injuries here. But I'm learning so the pain will decrease, lol

ooh, last night was tough. he was being a complete jerk from the time he got home. I was in kitchen and heard this vibrating...figured it was his cell, so I went up to him and checked his pocket- cell was in there, but off. i grabbed it he says give me my phone like 10times. i checked it and found nothing. he said"I knew you would never change."

Then we got on the topic of his reading my emils. basically he said his email is off limits as his phone, and my is open for inspection. (WTF???)

Anyway, Im on his comp right now and wondering whether to check his mail or not (prob wont find anything b/c prob already deleted, so...)

If he wants to talk to her he can call the office from anywhere, so what is the point of my PI work?

ALso, we are attempting to work the retrouvaille program and one of their primary policies is the decision to Trust. he constantly throws this in my face that I made that decision and that Imnot following through. Alot of retrouvaille grounrules differ greatly from MB, and I am trying to implement both.

he also read my emails yesterday again, and is expressing that this behavior change is directly related to that. I then tried to explain my reason for exposing (to my friends)which was stupid b/c he turned it all around saying i did it to hurt him since I want him to see himself through other people's eyes and he says why dont you take out an ad in the paper? (good idea!)

So, everything I do is thrown in my face and I dont know if i should continue surveilance ( havent looked at his email in almost 2 weeks) or if im shooting myself in the foot. I need some feedback from experiences, successful Plan Aers.

also with retrouvaille we dialogue on feelings and last night the topic was conflict- he says he feels distant when we avoid conflict and hopes in the future that he wont be this way- that felt like he was reaching out to me and I ackgnowledged that. he said No, I'm not, I dont know what Im doing. Then I said i wish I could see into your heart, and he said "there's nothing there- just a hole" that stung like a freakin knife wound.

Then we ended up having sex, so Im totally confused now.

HHHEEEELLLPPPPP!!!!!!!

cantgiveup, I know it probably seems very difficult to do this right now, but LA addressed some of the frustrations you've mentioned in the post above.

Maybe take another look at it. I hope things will turn around. I know that LA iwll be in from time to time.

cgu, Hiya. How are you today. How are things going?

cantgiveup, the point of surveillence and exposure is not to make them happy, but to BUST UP THE AFFAIR. They are not supposed to like it. Surveillance must be done in SECRET or you aren't likely to be very effective and catch him. But it does sound like he is still in contact or he wouldn't be so secretive. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. Do you have a keylogger on his computer?

Have you exposed his affair to all key targets?

ok, so confronting him to hand over the cell phone is the wrong move- I am afraid to install keylogger cause I know he has spyware programs and I dont know how to uninstall them.

Also, does exposure count if WH doesnt know? His boss knows via me telling his wife, but WH has no idea. SHould I tell him?

Hi cgu. Glad to see you on post again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Being that you are trying to save you M and WS is acting as if he has soemthing to hide, it is a key indicator that something is going on.

If WS has greed and is willing to be transparent (allowing you free access to email, cell, everything) then it is a good sign that there ins't anything going on.

From what you posted he seems defiant about allowing you to get itno thsee things, which means there is still soemthing tohide. Snooping without his awareness will alow you to look and verufy yourself. If he is defiant then it is very likely that contact is on and he isn't ready to give up A right now.

I wanted to ask how come you felt confused after sex with him when you posted earlier?

b/c all of his other actions lead me to believe that he doesnt want the M, but he still wants sex.

I just feel like snooping is a waste of time b/c Im sure he is deleting everything immediately.

As I mentioned before, we are also doing Retrouvaille and the cornerstone of the program is DECIDING to trust, so he always goes back to that when I ask /s or discuss looking at email etc, he says "you are supposed to be trusting me."

His email has a log thing where it tells you the time of the last opening, so he will know if I check the email.

Anyone know how to disable spyware?????

Sometimes I think that sex is confusing when you try to understand what it means for your partner. This is soemthing that LovingANyway has been helping me with.

You really only know what it means for you. Though you may try to read your H mind you really don't know what it means to him. So though you are continuing with SF it doesn't mean he is choosing to do right by you. For me, if I decided to engage in it, I try not to allow it to sway how I feel about WS and our situation. I try to enjoy it for what it is to me and leave it at that.

BTW, what does it represent for you?

About Spyware, are you able to open it on your computer, like by clicking on the icon? If so, look at it features and confirguration. It may have options that allow you to ignore certain software or to turn it off. We have 2 on our computer. When it detected the spyware I had it ignore it. Then I figured out how to turn it off and turned it off. Some Spyware is more difficult to use. But it you find it and look over it when you have good time and WS is away you can probably follow along its features/options and figure out how to turn it off.

However my WS wasn't good at really paying it any attention so this helped me also. He simply assumed I had no idea of what was going on. He didn't know my wifely, women's intuition had him pegged, lol.

Have you considered putting a voice recorder in your car? And also hiring a private investigator?

Hang in there cgu!

I am considering the voice recorder but dont know where to put it in the car where it wont be detected.

SF to me (now) means the M is not totally doomed.

I hate to hire a PI, I dont know how to sneak that much money w/o him noticing.

Tell me how the voice recorder works- can I access the recording from elsewhere, or do I have to remove, listen, and replace it in the car?

The voice recorder I have is voice activated. However I found out after trying to use it that it is noisy and the resolution is bad.

There are some that are more expensive. They can be set to voice activate when a voice is heard and it records voices over it for as long as the capabilities (1, 2 hours so on)are on it. The one I had made a sound, beep when it was voice activated. Needless to say I couldn't use it once I realized that.

About SF, do you fel this way because you feel that if WS is still engaging it it, the M isn't doomed?

I think you feel panic right now, but I could be wrong. I'm a newbie. WS's comments aren't reassuring, especially the go look in the calissifieds one. But try not to panic. Some comments are intended as a smoke screen to distract you. However it is difficult to see it this way when you don't know what WS is doing and when he doesn't seem compliant. This is what I've learned anyway.

But if you can get some grounding for yourself, some calm so that you can think things through it will help.

You mentioned how you were trying to show him so much love. He seems defiant and the aim of what you are trying to do may be missed if right now he isn't willing for you to meet his ENs. Which maybe you percieve they are for him to see that you love him.

So maybe it would help to better develop your plan right now of what you are trying to do in Plan A for you. Rather than trying to get him to see how much you love him.

Oh and the the comments that he has made may also be an attempt for you to give him some space. Being that he may feel you are trying to influence him by trying hard to be there for him.

Which we both know is something that he has too allow you to do, be there for him.

You and I, as former LBers are trying to make our environments safe for WS to be around us/ approach us and be allowed to be themselves. Boy, do I wrestle with this one.

Exposure is another part of the plan. You don't want the folks who know about it to keep quiet. He needs to know that they know. That the A is exposed. By him knowing the truth about what he has been doing and the A being exposed to the light of day, perhaps he will realize the error of his ways and straighten up. Though it take time for many WS as I'm learning personally and from other posters.

Just my thoughts. Hold your head up cgu. Be encouraged.