Over the last week, through reflection and talking with people, I've come to the conclusion that changing counselors may be in MP's and mine best interest.

We've been in both MC an IC for about 3 months now. In my last IC session last week, I brought up some of my issues with MP in our marriage (pre-A). The counselor seemed surprised that I had these issues.

Granted, I've focused a lot on what I did wrong, what I need to do to fix those issues, and stuff related to the A and getting NC established. I've really never mentioned the "gripes" I had with MP.

On the other hand, our counselor has never asked me (to the best of my recollection) how I viewed our marriage pre-A. Seems to me like that's a pretty glaring oversight.

Most of our MC (and from what MP has related to me her IC) has been focused on "closing the open doors" so we can begin recovery. While I understand the importance of that, I also believe that we won't be able to go forward in our recovery unless we start to tackle the underlying issues that led to the situation where MP chose an affair.

NC is in place. The OM broke things off last month, I sent MP's NC letter last week. She has given me access to her e-mail and other online accounts. She's not happy about it, but she gave it to me.

I pointed this out to our counselor, and he said she only did it because her back was against the wall. I don't see where that makes it any less valid. Isn't that the point of having boundaries and consequences? To enable the other person to decide what they want to do, knowing what you are prepared to do in turn?

Obviously, willingly complying is better than "forcing" compliance, but in the end compliance is better than no compliance, isn't it? I know that she can go around my boundaries if she wants to. She knows the consequences for that.

I guess the big sticking point with our counselor is that he wants her to end contact with all of her male friends. I'm not quite that stringent, mainly because I know her male friends, and in 99% of the cases they have become my friends as well. She's often complained that I keep stealing her male friends <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These male friends are guys that have known MP longer than me, but respect our marriage, MP, and myself, and want nothing more than for us to succeed. One of them I talked to last weekend. He's aware of what's going on, and is very unhappy with the choice MP made to have an A. He made some good points for me to consider, and also having talked to both MP and I feels that are relationship is quite salvageable. It helps that this particular friend has gone through something similar to what we're going through (though in his case, unfortunately, it didn't work out). He gave me some pointers from someone who has been there, and they were especially valuable to me because he's known my wife for 10+ years, and seen a good deal of the crap she went through before we ever met.

It was my talk with him, plus reflection on our counseling that really started to crystalize in my mind the need to change counselors. I talked to our pastor (who also knows what's going on) after I talked to our friend, and our pastor was completely surprised (to the point of blinking his eyes and taking a step backward) when I told him that our counselor had not yet addressed the underlying problem(s) in our marriage.

I know that MP has felt unsatisified with him in her IC session, and that developing a rapport with your couneslor is critical to success. She feels that he just doesn't understand her.

Our counselor, like many, has an area of speciality in his counseling. In this case, it's SA (among men), as well as post-abortion issues. I think he's coming at our situation from his own perspective, and it's just not what we need.

My biggest beef right now with our counselor is that he's really been pushing separation. He feels that I need to ask her to leave to end the emotional abuse I'm suffering from her post-A. That without a separation, she'll continue to indulge in her "addiction" (the A, even though the OM, from everything that I can tell and confirm, is completely done with her) and that she needs some serious "de-tox" time.

I am fundamentally opposed to separations, because I feel they generally lead to divorce. I know one couple in our church who had a separation that saved their marriage (they were in counseling during the separation), so I know that they can, in certain circumstances, work.

I also know that MP wants a separation so she can get to know the "new" me (I've basically done a 180 on her in the last few months, and it's a bit overwhelming to her at times). I'm just afraid that a separation would wind up being out of sight, out of mind (Though with 2 kids that might not be the case).

I prefer to look at the situation through the MB-lense. That MP is and has to go through withdrawal. She needs time to adjust to the changes I've made, as well as work through the all the stuff in her past, and the issues around the A. There are times she can't stand to be around me, and things are often very tense between us (not in a verbal, yelling fight kind of way, just an underlying tension).

She wants us to get to know one another again, and I agree with that. But I think the best way to do that is to live in the same house and start working on our marital issues with the help of a counselor (she also agrees that we need third-party help, since we've obviously been incapable of fixing it ourselves). That doesn't mean we have to spend every waking minute hanging out with each other, and I've been trying to make it a point to not be in the same spot she is in our house as much as possible, without going to the extreme of being physically and emotionally withdrawn/unavailable.

This is a long post. Essentially, I wanted some input from people who have been there on whether or not to change couneslors. We're going to see a pastor from our old church tonight, and we I have set up an appointment with the counselor we originally tried to get with for tomorrow night. This counselor trained one that was highly recommended to us by our old church.

As far as emotional abuse, having read a lot of stories here plus SAA, it seems to me that the BS usually has to go through quite a bit of emotional abuse, even after the A, as the withdrawal process runs it course and the fog lifts. Is that true? Or am I reading things into this that aren't there?

I'm not demanding that MP stay - I'm no longer hostage to the fear of losing her. Or at least, I'm working very hard on not being hostage to it. She can make the choices she desires, and I will respect them. I just don't see any value in asking her to leave, or in me leaving the house, at this point.

I believe that on some level, she does want this to work, if at all possible. If she didn't, she wouldn't be here (kids or no kids). She wouldn't be willing to discuss future plans, or give me ideas for fun family things to do (I'm trying to schedule/plan at least one "family" outing a month, something that she's always wanted and I was too much of a self-absorbed stick in the mud to do willingly).

Anyway, input/comments appreciated. I can endure the perceived lack of respect for sometime, if I know in my heart that it will get us to where I want us to be, and where I believe MP wants us to be. Thanks.

Hoo Bird. Separation? I don't think that is a good idea. Of course it is recommended sometimes if there is abuse but you really don't seem to be there yet.

It may be better to change councellors - is the current one Pro-Marriage?

Withdrawal isn't a nice time but it especially isn't a time to separate. If you aren't there she could well break NC.

At least I've bumped this thread for you.

Don't separate, change counselors.

A good counselor will never suggest separation unless there is physical abuse.

If you separate, it will make things worse, it will open doors for much more damage.

bigkahuna and beatndown -

Thanks for your replies (and the bump).

I do agree that MP is in withdrawal right now (she even mentioned something to that effect about a week ago).

My counselor's concern is emotional abuse, and the lack of respect for me that he perceives on her part. I agree that there is emotional abuse and lack of respect, but I view it as part and parcel of the current situation.

For me, the simple fact is that NC is in place, I have the ability to monitor it if I choose (to some degree - she can always find ways to get around my monitoring), and she has indicated at least verbally that she wants to work on this relationship. I'm still waiting on actions to follow them up, but I also understand that it may take time to get there.

My counselor feels that I'm reluctant to ask her to go because she may resume contact. That is partly true, but the biggest reason for my reluctance is that I just don't think, at this stage in the game, it's the right thing to do - and majority opinion seems to be the same.

Ultimately, she can leave if she chooses to. I won't stop her, or beg her, or bargain with her. Those days are over, and I'm in a much better place (I think and hope) than I was 3 months ago. And of course, I think a separation would be terrible on our kids.

The three things I want most from her, that I'm still waiting for, are:

1. An expression of regret or an apology for the A. Even if it doesn't change her mindset about our marriage, I don't think it's too much to ask.

2. Actively working on our relationship (so far it's been mostly passive, with me doing most of the work).

3. Talk to me when OM is on her mind, if for no other reason than to let me know she's having problems shaking him from her mind.

I do believe that OM is committed to NC of his own. I sent off the NC letter last week, and it was returned unopened. The one thing that I know she posted last week was deleted, and I assume he deleted it because if she had it would have shown "deleted by user".

Hopefully another counselor will be able to give us a different perspective to work from, or at least be able to reach her in ways that the current counselor can't. Of course, it's always possible that she's just not ready to listen yet. But I know from my own experience the last few months that I've had different people tell me essentially the same thing on an issue, and for whatever reason person A could not get it through my head, but person B or person C could.

The fight continues...I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet (though there are times when it's tempting, but I try and bite my tongue at those times so I don't make a decision in the heat of the moment).

That's one of the hardest things for them to do. It will take time for that probably. It took my wife 6 months to really do that to my satisfaction.


Yes. and this surprises you in what way? That's the pattern. You know your WW has let herself down as well as letting you down. She wants to FORGET and not be reminded of anything. Remember too she's still in withdrawal. don't push. It just takes time bird.


Well ditto number 2 above. She doesn't want to admit it. My wife was the same. That will change. But for the moment, in withdrawal, he is always on her mind.

Are you prepared for her to do that??

I have gotten great support from you in my post Brokenbird and I am here to shore you up if I am able.

The FOG is among you and you and I are living through it. One thing I learned from LA in my post is that the fog is her shoving the responsibility of her choices on others.

Taking what she did and making you and others the culprit in some way.

My W is doing just that and you know my story. It is a tough row to hoe... (can you tell I am from Georgia?)

Just change counsellors and express to him why... He may not know he is doing the wrong thing by you.
If your MP is still with you be thankfula nd stick to your Plan A and youe CODE as LA calls it.

Your Code is important to YOUR sanity not her returning to you. I can tell you how important it has been in me being able to see through SOME of the fog.

You know the thing about fog??? The people that are making it don't know it. Its almost like smokers don't smell the smoke kind of thing.

Keep true to yourself and you will ,at least, be a better MAN for it.

Take ownership of what your choices were and accept nothing less from her.

I am praying for you...

AH

Did I hear my name?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, Bird...I like that BK calls you that...may I?

I'm of two minds here.

"I pointed this out to our counselor, and he said she only did it because her back was against the wall." This is a red flag. So I'm of the mind, along with the seperation (pushing anything is a huge nonono) of supporting the changing counselors.

However...you have some other issues that were the same with H and me...

Our counselor, like many, has an area of speciality in his counseling. In this case, it's SA (among men), as well as post-abortion issues.

I got a Christian-based Psychologist, pro-marriage, with this expertise area, also. Be surprised that majority of his clients are women. I was surprised. You be what you want.

I think he's coming at our situation from his own perspective, and it's just not what we need.

There are two phases to MC...one, crisis counseling...affairs or abuse, getting to a safe area from either, (NC and withdrawal), each of you handling this and working on it in your own way (no measuring sticks)...and once the crisis is firmly behind...there's a gap, a nothingness, then begins phase two, which is personal and inter-relational growth. Stuff slows waaaay down. LOL.

The onus is on you to voice what your concerns are...for instance, if you brought up your

Before you go there entirely, consider..."On the other hand, our counselor has never asked me (to the best of my recollection) how I viewed our marriage pre-A. Seems to me like that's a pretty glaring oversight." Well, this comes in the second phase, usually, not the first. Although ours immediately addressed the communication issues AFTER the A stopped, and contact...which took a few months. Counseling is slow...second phase, slow...if you have fast expectations, want counseling the way you what it and to address what you want when you believe you need it...finding another counselor that fits you just write might be a chore. Or impossible. I emphasize this, because I HATED slow. I'm used to it today...a year and half later.

He told us right off the bat we'd need a two-year recovery timeline. H with SA and me with my control freaked out addiction. Different but equal (and very attractive to each other, but that's another story). I have tried three times to end it with him. Called him on a couple of DJs, told him how I felt and what I believed...and therapy got better. He mentioned today that I had an influence on him. We all do, on each other, with our presence. He specifically stated that I asked for what I wanted.

Just to consider.

"I guess the big sticking point with our counselor is that he wants her to end contact with all of her male friends."

This might be a right now sticking point...something he sees as a boundary to your marriage you could try (since it wasn't in place before) and see how it works for you. A commitment to trying this out for three or six months. Real friends would be supportive of it without flack. Then you can decide to have your friends, or couple friends, but maybe there is something you aren't seeing that he is...a willingness to change your beliefs, your choice, is essential to the therapy's success.

That's from someone who had a lot of beliefs she didn't want to change! lol...snickering at myself here.

I don't agree with his detox seperation time at all...I believe there he is addressing core issues that feel like a timeout for children into seperate corners. However...I'm like you...wwaaaay too scared to be open to that one.

See why I'm of two minds?

"My counselor's concern is emotional abuse, and the lack of respect for me that he perceives on her part. I agree that there is emotional abuse and lack of respect, but I view it as part and parcel of the current situation."

Okay, do you believe that As are emotional abuse? I do. And they occur from entitlement fueled by resentment and a lack of respect. So, I'm with your amazing insight into that one. Dump the counselor.

LOL

Wish I could have you go to mine.

Here is how I got through withdrawal with WH...I realized that the V&E abuse was present pre-A. I worked on my part and slipped a couple of times. We were both abusive in very different ways...mine was up front and in your face...his was in withdrawing, silence, passive aggressive and forgetting. Though he had a DJ mindset, as well. The more I watched myself the more I recognized it and stopped it by pointing it out. I believe your WW does not desire to be an abuser. I also know that I found rejection, pain, abandonment where it wasn't as well as where it was...so I had to clear that up to get to the legitimate part...my own.

As in all things, it is up to you. Know that whatever choice you make will not be the single stroke that killed or saved your marriage. It is one choice of thousands you make every week. All matter. Let this one be no bigger or smaller than the others.

Big thanks from me to BK for nailing really important points without nearly as many words or tangents. Love your posts, BK.

Not excluding beatndown...haven't been introduced yet.

((((AH)))) Just 'cuz I can.

LA

What does that mean?? LOL

Got you to laugh...that's what it means!!!

LOL

I like posting...you can hug anybody, anytime, and they can't stop you. Power surge moment.

And I'm FUNNY.

LA

bigkahuna -

Thanks for showing me that this is, as I kind of knew, par for the course. It's comforting, in an odd sort of way, to realize that a lot of this follows a well-known script, even if the script sucks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Patience for me is the hardest part. Maybe that's one of the things God is trying to teach me....Isaiah 40:31 says it the best for me right now. "But those who wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not be faint."

As you've reminded me several times, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Guess I better settle down and entrench.

I think so. I don't want to have to follow through, and it's taken me a long time (probably too long) to follow through or at least demonstrate the willigness to follow through. But I also know that I have to take a stand at some point.

I do believe, and hope, that I won't have to, at least at this point. She is really struggling with NC. It helps that OM has cut her off. I pray that he continues to.


Understood. Still struggling to define my code, but I can see how a guy (me) that keeps thrashing around would be very unattractive. Things are really in flux right now (especially with switching counselors), so I'm trying to be firm where I need to be, but willing to negotiate on other things. I guess that's where my code comes in.


I want to be a better man and still married to MP though. This is probably my big sticking point....I want to be the best man that I can be, but at the same time I'm having trouble not "meddling" in things to make the outcome what I want. Add to that my desire to have it all fixed right now makes for a very difficult situation, that probably doesn't need to be so difficult (ok...that sentence made no sense...).

I'm finding myself having to make a daily choice to both focus on what I can do, and submit to God. Supposedly, according to wiser men then me, it gets easier down the road (the submission to God part)....

LA -


Sure. BB, Bird, Broken, Idiot, Fool - I pretty much respond to any name as long as I know you're referring to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


MP feels that she may have some form of SA. Our (former) counselor appeared to not see it that way. He was more than happy to label my voyeurism as SA (not an entirely inaccurate description, though I have zero interest in that right now - but will be on guard against it raising it's ugly head in the future).


That makes sense. I guess for MP and I, our definition of crisis was different from what our counselor had. The A is over. The fact that MP still has feelings for him and wants to contact him, to me, doesn't say that the A is not over. It tells me that she is going through withdrawal, and we need to start addressing our individual issues as well as our marital issues. MP felt (and I did, to some degree) that there was no plan in place with our counselor on how to get to where we want to be. We raised that with our counselor, and he told us (my recollection, may not be 100% accurate) that he felt we couldn't begin recovery until all the doors were closed.


See my previous reply to bigkahuna regarding my complete lack of patience. I keep telling myself that anything worth having is worth working hard for and waiting for. Real easy to say, real hard to do...for me at least. That and every time we had counseling (joint or individual) we'd come away emotionally drained and wiped. Guess that's just part of how it works, at least at first.


I'm still very reluctant to put that boundary in place. MP has always related to men better than women (she was quite the tomboy growing up). I understand the very real concerns about inter-gender friendships, but as I said earlier, the men she talks to regularly I know as well. None of them are happy about the A, and they all want us to recover. They call it like it is - when one of us is wrong in something, they'll state so.

To be honest, the way I view it right now, is that if I was (or will from now on) doing my job as the husband the way I should have been, she won't need to talk to her male friends as much as she was because she'll have me, and we'll be each other's best friend. And we'll have other couples (her male friends, most of who have a SO) to double-date with.


I will grant that there have been things our counselor brought up for me that at first I was totally against. Most of the time (but not all) upon reflection I could see his point.


Yes, A's are emotional abuse, especially once they're discovered or revealed and then continue. You're right about entitlement and lack of respect as well. That's where our counselor and I part directions though. I believe that the entitlement will go away and the respect will come back - but only if I continue to work on my part of the marriage, and "kicking" her out is not, IMO, the way to do that. Not at this point. Even if she feels she wants a separation, I still think it wouldn't help any.


I sound similar to your husband - withdrawing, silence, passive-aggressive. Add in SD, DJ and angry outbursts and you've got a good picture of me. I am working on these issues...I'm trying to be emotionally open and honest, not withdrawing from MP...even when I feel that she doesn't hear what I say. I've managed to not have any major angry outbursts over the last few months, and am slowly working on getting rid of SD and DJ. I'm also reaching a point where I am willing to point out to MP when she upsets me by actions she takes. Again, she may not understand or agree, but I will point them out, in a kind, loving way.

And yes, I have, as you, found pain, rejection, and abandonment in places where it wasn't really there. I'm having to really learn who MP is, and how to read her. Something I should have been doing all along, but didn't.


Reminds me of what my high school basketball coach used to tell us - no single shot wins or loses a game. Of course, he was also big on free throws, which he believed could win or lose a game. I still run around fearing making the one mistake that screws this all up....even though MP has told me (when I brought this up a couple of months ago) that she knows I will make mistakes as we go through this.

Looks like MP and I will be splitting up our counseling.

A couple of nights ago we went to meet the associate pastor at our old church. This church has a special spot in our hearts, because it's the church we started going to after we began dating, and they saw us grow as a couple and married us. There are people still there who probably have some sense of ownership in us, as individuals and as a couple.

The meeting with the associate pastor went very well. We gave him the 5 minute synopsis, and his first response was "I could spank both of you." (though it was said in a loving way).

He was very straight and to the point. He told us the first thing we need to do is get right with God. I'm on my way there, MP is still, I think, struggling in that.

We have a follow-up with him in 3 weeks. We were both very comfortable talking with him.

The next night we went to see a new counselor, one who we had tried to see initially but just couldn't get our schedules in sync. I gave my part of the situation, and then left MP to talk with her. MP was comfortable with her, and I think she'll relate to a female counselor better than our current one (plus the counselor we talked to last night is similar to Annette in being a tomboy and relating with men).

MP didn't want to do combined MC and IC with the same counselor this time. She wants to stay with our old associate pastor for MC - which surprised me a little because he said a lot of the things I've said in the last few months about how good are marraige could be if we both submit to God, etc.

So for now it looks like she'll do IC with the new counselor, I'll either continue IC with our old counselor or switch to the one my sister has used (which may be better because my sister's counselor is familiar with my mom, and my relationship with my mom has played a role in where we are and who I am today). We'll do MC with our old associate pastor.

I'm not sure it's good to split counseling this way, because with one counselor doing it all you have someone who has the big picture. On the other hand, I can see where MP and I would be either reluctant to bring things up in IC and/or wondering what the other one said in IC when things are brought up in MC. Heck - I know I've wondered a time or two what our old counselor might know that I didn't know but should <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm comfortable with the current proposed arrangement - not entirely sure it's the best, but my gut isn't screaming that it's a bad idea, so I'll go with it for now.

Thanks for the advice, suggestions and inputs, all.

Shucks LA. Coming from you that means a lot to me.

Truthfully Bird, it's enough that she is at home at this point.

Patience, consistency, etc will win the day.

She will get through withdrawal. She will them commit to marriage. You won't be the only one working on this forever - it just seems that way. It frustrates the living daylights out of you. I know.

But oh. How it is worth it to still be married to the wife of your youth. The mother of your children.