DD14 attends a Christian School with a very good reputation and loves it there. She is an active participant in all classes and particuarly enjoys "Bible" class. (In 2004/05 - she won the only award given by the Bible staff for 'excellence in applying scripture to everyday life')

WXW continues dating married, former family friend and forces DD14 to spend time with them at her house, dinner, movies, church, etc. DD14 loathes OM.

Custody is currently "split-time"; alternating each week. [Very bad situation for DD by the way!]

DD14 is currently struggling with a particular passage and I have been unable to help her with this struggle.

1corinthians 5:9-11

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

This has also created my own personal inner-battle as I desire for DD14 and WXW to have a good relationship - however in consideration of above scripture - I am unsure how to proceed.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

FR

[color:"green"]FR,

OM is married?!! Still living with his wife?!!

OK my opinion is based on what you can do legally. Legally it would be extremely difficult to get a court to rule that DD should not spend custody time with mom. Unless mom was sitting her down in the bedroom to watch her immoral "acts".

Your daughter is of an age where the court WOULD give weight to her preferences, however. You could try asking for a custody hearing and let the judge talk to your daughter about where she wants to live. (Just to warn you, sometimes kids say whatever the parent wants to hear - she may be telling YOU that she hates a situation, while she is telling MOM another story, then she will tell the JUDGE a third story.) Remember too, that preference gives WEIGHT to the decision the judge might make - it does not guarantee a decision in DD's favor.

So your options legally are limited. Plus you want to encourage DD to have a good relationship with mom. My advice would then have to turn to the bible teachings that promote forgiveness. Her mother is in a state of sin, but it is not DD's or Dad's place to judge her.

As an adult she will have the option not to spend time with a sinner, but as a child she does not have that luxury.

V.[/color]

FR~
I think V summed it up pretty well.

I'm sorry DD has to live with her mother's choices. My DD's must live with their father's as well.

I don't know that teaching her acceptance is right under these circumstances, but forgiveness is, and probably must be in order for her to have a relationship with her mother.

I see her mother pushing her away because of her choices. I suspect DD will one day be strong enough to voice her opinion and be able to make a decision for herself of where she wants to live based on her mother's poor choices.

Thinking of DD and you.
K!

I would suggest that you incourage your D to follow the spirit of this passage rather than taking it literally. I think this passage is aimed more at telling the church how to treat someone that calls themselves a Christian but indulges in this sin.

DD needs to go along with court ordered visitation for your sake. However, that doesn't mean that she can't ask her mom to take her home if mom is doing something that she finds offensive (ex: OM spending the night).

She doesn't have to be ugly to WXW or OM. She can still make it clear that she doesn't approve. Remind her of how Christ would treat a sinner, and that it's ok to love her mom.

She can "separate" herself by being aware that WXW's actions are not acceptable and hold herself to a higher standard.

Fish,

Has your daughter talked to HER mother about how she feels and why? If Not, I would encourage her to do so.

Your daughter could share the scripture with her mother
to help explain her inner struggle.

She could let her mother know, based on this scripture, I'm really struggling with your choices, and it's causing me to have some hard choices to make, it says that as a Christian, I am not even supposed to spend time with you when you are doing these things, not that I can't spend time with you when you AREN'T doing them, just when you.

So, If you want to spend time with me, then make plans to spend time with OM at a time when I am not around.

If you desire to spend more time with OM, yes, that hurts but I can learn to accept that, and I will be choosing to spend more time with dad.

It can certainly teach your daughter how to love unconditionally and yet set her own godly boundaries.

And it really brings into play the scripture about "If you want to be my disciple you must hate your wife, mother, brother, sister ect..."

It's about wanting to please Christ more than wanting to please the other person, even when it really hurts.

Hope that makes sense.

Christ associated with a lot of sinners as I recall.

I think this passage has to do with being a willing partipant in the sin, and/or doing things which indicate you approve of the sin.

Your daughter has no choice. She is no more a sinner by being with WXW and OM, than a bystander is a crook because he happens to be in a bank when it is robbed.

Sunny:

It's a complex and messy sitch. OM is still married, lives part time w/wife and other time who knows where. He filed for D in November, uncontested by wife - which means (in Fl.) that D will be final in 21 days. Sometime in December; OM put hold on D; but still sees WXW and his W. WXW insists he is D'ed; I checked with county clerk - he is not. Who knows the truth with those two/three - whatever?

DD14 desires to live w/me full-time however WXW says no way - that "she is fine as it is". Parent-coordinator suggested a 90-day trial period of DD living with WXW. "No way" says WXW and "no way" to trial period w/me. So now I'm turning all over to attorney for custody-mod.


DD forgives her mom every day. No judging going on by either of us.

K: Thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

fbwidow:


I've been delicately - doing this. Big problem is: "Dad; how do I know what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be figurative"? Ask 100 different people and get 100 different answers. Her school teaches that scripture is to be considered literal in nearly all cases. (Until now; so did WXW and I!)


DD14 does this now.


WXW forces DD to go with them (WXW and future husband) to dinner, movies, church, shopping, etc. so "separation" in the physical sense is tough. While at WXW's house; DD stays in her room. [Not much fun for a social, energetic 14 yo girl!]

Rose:


Yes - repeatedly. DD says her mom will not have this discussion w/her; saying it's an "adult-issue".



Despite repeated attempts; her mom refuses to discuss scripture w/DD - however OM goes to church w/WXW and DD under the guise of being unmarried/divorced and soon to be H of WXW. He keeps his Bible neatly beside him in his vehicle, prays before meals while out for dinner etc. (All of which is great - however in this sitch is a touch hypocritical! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Justin:


Yes he did. And while we should all strive to be Christlike - this is not an apples/apples analogy as your next sentence concludes.


Exactly - she cannot disengage from the sinning/sinners as Christ was able to do if he so chose.



I'm not considering that she is a sinner in this regard, nor does she. The passage clearly states an action that one should take in the presence of adulterers et al. The real question from this passage would be: Is DD sinning by "being around" WXW and OM? I realize it's a tough question and probably uncomfortable for most of us to consider. However I am unclear on whether the level of discomfort a passage may cause should have any bearing on whether it is correct or not. And DD is asking me this very question.

Thanks all for your comments.

FR

Frankly, I can't believe anybody would think for one minute that your daughter is sinning by being around WXW and OM. She has NO control over that and is a minor child whose judgement is not that of a mature adult, much less a mature adult Christian.

I think some people are getting too tied up in the letter of the law rather than the Spirit of it. And, as I recall, Christ has some tough things to say about people who get tied up in the letter of the law.

This is a riduculous burden to place on a 14 year old. The sin is on those who cause her to worry that she might be sinning.

Justin:


It's a question that DD asked me and although I agree with you on an emotional level - as her Dad; I must be mindful of situations like this. I've read the passage over and over (along with many, many others) and admit that I am uncertain of its true intent. And again; if I do not consider this passage as literal; how do I distinguish/determine the same for other passages?


Not being cute here - however are you speaking of the letter of "man's" law or the letter of Biblical law?


The burden is/was placed on her by those who chose to have the divorce and are continuing the affair - which is why there is so much written in the Bible about family relationships/divorce/adultery, etc. And I agree with you that it's ridiculous - however it is also real! If the sin is on those who cause her to worry - what passage(s) are you referring to? She came to me due to scripture she read in school. Are you implying that the school staff is causing her to sin? Please help me understand. Thanks.

FR

I think the key to this passage is this...portion here.


He is talking about those who call themselves a brother, and not to those who do not consider themselves Christians.

but I'm curious, has your daughter brought this up to her teacher? or even the pastor? As it could be handled from that perspective which could take you and your daughter out of the mix.

Are XW and OM members of the church they attend?

Your daughter could ask her teacher, and her teacher could in turn confront your XW, beings that it is a Christian School, she could bring it up as to how it goes against the very things she says she wants her daughter to learn.

If they are members of the church, they could in turn handle it by means of church discipline.

As her father you could bring it up to the pastor, and ask him how you can handle it, or if he would be willing to address the issue with her and OM.

Even if you go to different churches, you could probably speak to your own pastor and technically, he could in turn contact the other pastor and speak to him about it.

Fr, I can't speak to the scripture part of this but it seems to me the fact that the OM is still married is where you should focus.

If these two, ex & om, attend church & have presented themselves as a couple their pastor ought to know the om is married & still living with his w.

Like TR I'd like to see this issue taken out of your hands in terms of what could be done in a public way.

Concentrate on your daughter's needs & feelings as best you can. Give her comfort by reassuring her this is her mother's behavior not hers & she's done nothing wrong.

It's OK to love people & not love what they do. This may alter our relationship with them. Your daughter may choose to spend less time with her mother or even no time with her mother & the bf. It's her choice to make to a certain extent.

What I wouldn't want to see is you trying to influence behavior either for your daughter or your ex.

By getting this out of your hands & into the hands of a third party you are not showing a desire to control. Your daughter has come to you with a specific concern which you can pass on to those who may have suggestions for how your daughter can comfortably deal with her concerns.

rose:


Agreed. WXW and OM consider themselves to be very strong Christians.


Yes, to a couple of her teachers.


The pastor (and his W) of the church that WXW and OM attend believe that OM is divorced and that WXW and OM will soon be married. It's a small church located 25+ miles away and OM has charmed most of the members and staff.


Not sure. It's a church that WXW's mom helped (financially) to start; is very small and prior to A and D; WXW never desired to attend.


Good idea - but won't happen. WXW no longer attends school functions and will not meet w/teachers. I take care of all school activities.


Have thought seriously about this. As WXW's family is financially involved; not sure how the news (no matter how true) would be accepted if at all. Do not want repercussions of exposure to affect DD!



Good idea - I will explore this more. Thanks.


nams:



DD clearly knows she's done nothing wrong and has a good handle on the reality of sitch.


DD desires to live FT w/me - I am working on this; however the wheels of the legal system turn very slowly. However DD does not want to have to say this in front of her mom (understandable).


Not exactly sure what you're saying here. I do not influence DD's behavior negatively toward WXW; however I do validate DD's prayers and thoughts that "God will bring my old mom back...". All talk about mom is positive between DD and I.


"Third party" at this point is DD's counselor - who suggested to WXW a "90-day trial living arrangement" with either parent. I said yes, WXW said no to trial with her - or me. Went to mediator who offered same scenario; WXW again said no to both. Only option is legal system.

As usually happens; answers to questions concerning religion vary and the same is ture here. I'm going to tell DD that she will have to form her own conclusion about the passage in question and see how it plays out. That I will support her decision and we'll re-visit it as needed. Thanks again all.

FR

Do you know if his wife is willing to work on their marriage? Do you know her? Or even how to contact her?

Do you know if she knows about her husband and your ex? (she might not)and would you be willing to contact her and let her know? Not that you necessarily want your ex-wife back, but in order to try and save their marriage, so it at least has a chance?

She may be willing to join said church and bring the truth to light, or if she goes to another church, she may be willing to talk to her own pastor and get Him involved.

I guess to me, this would be allowing the various Church Bodies to really be working as ONE, like it should be.

That would also take your daughter out of the equation.

I actually know of a similiar situation, where the betrayed wife joined the church her husband and his OW attended, the Pastor confronted the husband and the OW about the affair, and since they were both looking at joining that church, the Pastor told them the ONLY way He could allow the OW to join was for them to end their relationship. The husband could join, because then they could apply real Church Discipline to Him as His wife was already a member.

Could you imagine the look on their faces if HIS wife, joined their church?

Hi rose:

Entire sitch w/WXW and OM, OMW, etc. is very bizarre and unhealthy. I don't care enough about sitch to further expose - they will only lie about it, deny it and what's the point? DD asked me about the passage mentioned and I've told her to come to her own conclusion, we will discuss it as she needs to and I will support her. Hopefully the courts will do the right thing and DD will no longer have to worry about, and be so close to all this stuff. As in all divorces - our kids deserve better! Thanks.

FR