Can One Spouse Save a Marriage? (Part 2)

I've posted in the infidelity section, but haven't received much of a response. I need advice like I need air right now... and am debating the appropriateness of the use of the term "infidelity" in our case...

My wife and I have been through some horribly rough times. We lived together before marrying, for roughyl 5 years, and married the year after the birth of our daughter. She suffered from destructive fits of jealous rage, which I was too young to handle emotionally and brought me to domestic violence, causing her to have an emotional affair while still suffering from severe anger, jealousy and destructive behavior. She suffers from trust issues also. We lost a child, but now have a 6 year old daughter. My wife went through a time after our daughter's birth of being a germ-a-phobe too.

Things haven't always been bad. We've had some great times for extended periods before and after our daughter was born, but then I fell into a pattern of resent, anger, had issues w/ our finances and my job. It was on and off, but took it's toll. Finally, I started having health issues (tinitus, high cholestoral, jaw problems because of impacted wisdom teeth, etc...). Work was becoming intolerable, my wife started back to work nights so she was never there... I wouldn't change anything because I was stuck in a rut emotionlly and mentally. It all finally caught up to me and I had a break down. I started conversing w/ a female confidant at work, not discussing my problems at home, but rather talking about work and life in general. Things got pretty bad... My wife tried to be there for me, but I turned her away as I was unable to accept help from anyone. Even talking to my friend at work really did no good, and was more of a vent. At some point, I started calling her at home out of depsperation and loneliness w/ my wife gone at night. My wife caught on, when she called me from work and the phone was busy for hours late at night. She called the phone company, confirmed on our next bill taht I was calling someone and called me on it. I lied... then lied some more and then more and more and more. It got to the point where I was so unstable that I told my wife i had feelings for this girl when I didn't and for several weeks, contemplated suicide several times a day. After catching on to my late night phone calls, my wife stopped trying to help me so much and started having emotional problems herself. Then, she picked up a confidant at work herself, and he later told her he had feelings for her.

It took a legal seperation, the fear of losing my wife and daughter and the involvement of another man in her life to shock me back into reality. I immediately stopped talking to the female co-worker, re-suggested marriage couseling after we had both previously offered and declined, and made every possible effort to change my life and attitude. Unfortunately, it was too late and she had already distanced herself from me.

She went on to tell me taht she doesn't love me, is angry and untrusting, and doesn't want to work things out.

She says this, but then says that she is unsure if this could change, but is elusive as to her feelings for this OM?, and says that she is too angry and hurt to come to any kind of decisions as to why she feels the way she does and if it will change. I'm not sure where any of this is going...

This past weekend, we had a discussion turned argument. It evolved into her trying to hve me removed from our home. My Mother came to get me, but talked us both into marriage counseling after my wife saw how distraught i was over the argument and having to leave and said i could stay. We didn't talk the rest of the weekend for the most part, nd she has yet to make the appointment.

last night, we talked some more, for about 3 1/2 hours. No arguments. No harsh words. I'm done w/ all of that. I've worked tirelessly to change my perspective and attitude back to what it was when i was younger... I was easy going, friendly, happy. This weekend was the final straw. I can't go on being angry anymore. So we talked last night... she said the same things she's been saying to me (about not loving me, etc...), said she's unsure if this has been ongoing for her or if it's because of recent issues, would not confess to either having or not having feelings for the OM? though i am 95% positive if there was anything going on there it was or is emotinal and not physical, but she did go on to say out of anger that it could get physical if everyone doesn't leave her alone and stop accusing her of it. I tried to take some of what I've learnt here and applied it to how she is feeling and what she is going through. By the end of the night, she had told me some things taht she fealt she couldn't have previously said because of trust, she apologized to me for the forced demotion I took at work yesterday, said she wants to try the counseling still even if she has doubts about it working, and we hugged for a few minutes. I couldn't sleep all night... I was emotionally on edge like always after she tells me she doesn't love me right now, etc... She saw taht I was having a tough night, talked to me for a few seconds an then cuddled w/ me for the rest of the night. This morning, we talked like normal but didn't really make any physical contact once out of bed. I got ready for work and helped her get our daughter ready for school. We went outside, got our daughter on the bus, my wife bent in for a kiss on he cheek and I told her I loved her and left.

Does anyone have any insight on what i should do from here? or maybe any input on whther or not she may come around? I love her to pieces, and can't see my life w/out either of them. We've been through so much, and I see no reason why we should give up now. I know my being there has been putting stress on her though, yet she hasn't until this past weekend made it known that I have to leave. I know she's not financially ready and doesn't want to force me out the door... but am I being selfish by staying? I'd like to get my hopes up and think we made some progress last night, but I know that it was more likely a rare moment betwen us and things will revert back to the way they were if they haven't already. I just keep getting my hopes up, regardless of what she says...

Answers to any of my questions, or comments in reagrds to anything said would be greatly appreciated.

I'm game, Inferno...

Just got caught up on your different threads...my initial idea is that you are coming at you life backwards...and that's not a bad thing. Might be the only way you can come at your life. Okay by me. What I want is for you to know your patterns and processes and it to be okay with you.

You posted here under Other Topics because you weren't getting enough traffic in GQII...a norm that wasn't working for you. What I don't hear is if you were wondering why you weren't getting more responses than believer's...and hers is more than enough, big stuff in tight packages.

You wanted more. God brings me to you. Now you must suffer believer's opposite in posting style...I'm long winded, type faster than my brain thinks, and am willing to detail it out to you, risking being seen as condescending. Oh, and I ask a ton of questions.

Be careful what you wish for, right?

Can one spouse save a marriage? Yes. Happened in my case with me. The unhealthy patterns in your marriage require you both to participate in the dance, otherwise, it changes. Only takes one to stop and begin new steps. That's not manipulation or control...a truth God gave us in our design. We only control ourselves...get that deeply within you, so deep you know you are only responsible for yourself. God wouldn't be so mean as to give you the responsibility for the world and only the control of yourself, would he? That would be infuriating.

Bet you feel infuriated a lot, huh? What I get from your posts is this under-the-radar rage at feeling responsible for your world (blamed, shamed, guilted) without being allowed the control to fix it, please it, make it better.

Am I close?

In reality, you don't have that responsiblity and only you can have your feelings. I just want you to stop creating half of them. Half are what they are...the rest are created by you for you and you're not getting it.

You knew you needed MC before your mother said it. You didn't do it. You know you need IC and can do MC by yourself, inviting your spouse when she chooses. Give yourself permission to do this for yourself. Make the appts, do the interviews. You aren't defective, made wrong or unlovable just as you are, without a word or action. Until you get that, you'll be angry.

You're really sensitive to your wife's anger, aren't you?

"I've been trying to discuss the issue w/ my wife for some time. The problem I'm having is that she is too angry to care about our situation right now." You judge others' anger and feel okay in doing that because you judge your own. Her anger has control over you. You try to discuss but can't because of her anger. That's what I heard you say. Or is it really her anger? Sounds like you don't feel like you have input into the relationship because it is being cut off by your wife's lack of caring, not anger.

Important to know which.

See, you can state but not discuss without her. You can choose your actions because they are yours, not hers. Her control ends at her, too. Doesn't feel like it, though, huh?

Are you being selfish staying in your marriage where you are the husband and the father? Do you choose to do right, or do what you believe others want you to do? Is your image, how you're viewed, more important than how you see yourself? Feel free to say yes...no ridicule here. I was that way...I was safer making my choices in the eyes of others than myself. My anger was deadly. I was an abuser. They were my safe place, not me. Until they weren't safe anymore.

I am sitting here wanting a shortcut...I want you to pop into my present day life with your wife, reaping rewards that stagger your mind, relieve your pain, give your feet a happy dance you've never had before...and I know that's your journey. We were where you were...battling each other, fighting our dependence on each other; the enmeshment, disrespect, reactive, painful and confusion.

First lesson...she believes you have to leave because (fill in the blank). "I hear you desire me to leave because you think my presence causes this, this and this, is that correct?"

Listen and repeat. She thinks, feels and believes. You don't cause any of those. Nor does she you. Can't control or cure others of what God gave them only control over. You have influence, not causation. Being a pleaser/fixer is abusive because it denies the reality that every person controls themselves...are capable though not willing. And it is disrespectful to do for others what they don't ask you to do for the reason of pleasing them.

She may believe you need to leave, and you may believe you need to stay. Both valid viewpoints, not one over the other. Going to counseling together to find out how to hold both beliefs and be respectful of them is essential. It isn't conflict...beliefs change, just like feelings, only you get to choose what you believe.

Staying is the best possible way to save my marriage. It is choosing to live with feelings that tell you you're being rejected, daily. That's your sore spot, the one that ignites all the other emotions. Okay. Something to work on, examine, understand. You can believe staying is best for keeping your family intact and recovering your marriage. No one can get you out of the house, and I think you know that. Even with past abuse...you now know this and don't have to fear it.

You can do half the housework and spend a lot of time with your daughter because that is what you choose to do, not to please, but to do what you believe is your share. You can wash cars with daughter, make chores playful and creative (Dads rock at this) because you believe in not doing only what you love, but in choosing to love what you do.

Lots of real power in owning your choices, actions and not being responsible for what you can't be responsible for (lots of rage and frustration in that). You're gonna love being in this situation, Inferno, because your whole life is about to become a lot less work...on the outside.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA

Ouch! I've only met one other person that knew me as well as you've just painted me. It was a reality check then too. Only difference is she knew the good side, and it was because we were practically the same person, w/ a few differences in personal taste. It was cool to find someone the same as me, but kind of stole my identity. At the same time, I didn't feel so alone anymore. Unfortunately, it wasn't my wife. To be honest w/ you, she's never really understood me to some extent... I'm pretty complex and A)have a hard time sharing B) have a hard time explaining.

"You posted here under Other Topics because you weren't getting enough traffic in GQII...a norm that wasn't working for you. What I don't hear is if you were wondering why you weren't getting more responses than believer's...and hers is more than enough, big stuff in tight packages."

I wondered. You're right. I'm looking for a solution to a problem I probably have no control over. I almost always think w/ my heart and not my head and get carried away. I never realize I've done it until it's too late too. I try not to be selfish, but am not always sucessful. The heart wants what the heart wants. I'm usually pretty conflicted. I appreciate believer's input, but it left me feeling a little inadequate and I'm sure you know what I mean.

"You wanted more. God brings me to you. Now you must suffer believer's opposite in posting style...I'm long winded, type faster than my brain thinks, and am willing to detail it out to you, risking being seen as condescending. Oh, and I ask a ton of questions."

I wouldn't call it suffering. I prefer detail. Short, concise answers are lost on me and I like to have everything laid out in front of me. I prefer to be given direction, because when left to my own devices I tend to stray down the wrong path. I also like giving answers. It helps my thought process along.


"Can one spouse save a marriage? Yes. Happened in my case with me. The unhealthy patterns in your marriage require you both to participate in the dance, otherwise, it changes. Only takes one to stop and begin new steps. That's not manipulation or control...a truth God gave us in our design. We only control ourselves...get that deeply within you, so deep you know you are only responsible for yourself. God wouldn't be so mean as to give you the responsibility for the world and only the control of yourself, would he? That would be infuriating."

So, are you saying that she's stopped and started dancing in a different direction. Thanx for being so cryptic. :OD Seriously though, I feel like she's started "dancing" in a different direction... Good grief. Everyone tells me that I'm too concerned about everything, all the time. I constantly try to put the weight of the world on my shoulders. I think it stems from one of those "childhood issues" things. I was kind of the outcast... voted shyest in my Senior class. Tried to please everyone all the time. Especially family. I've given that up, but can't seem to stop doing it for my wife right now. I constantly feel like I have no control over our situation, and that one wrong move is going to end it all. I feel like I have to take control because she has relinquished it and just doesn't care. Only it looks to me like I'm not getting anywhere. It drives me nuts, only I haven't found a way to stop. Now instead of anger it's fear. I traded the newer model in for an old favorite.

"Bet you feel infuriated a lot, huh? What I get from your posts is this under-the-radar rage at feeling responsible for your world (blamed, shamed, guilted) without being allowed the control to fix it, please it, make it better."

Brother. Yeah that was me. Now it's the fear. The fear of getting over these issues, but losing it all in the end. The fear that my taking repsonisiblity isn't going to be enough. The fear of having to accpet things the way they are and having to move on. The fear of my daughter not knowing what it's like to live w/ both of her parents, and me not knowing what's it's like to live w/ my daughter. People give up way to easily anymore. I cry alot and feel lonely and empty instead of flying off the handle and taking it out on everyone.

"In reality, you don't have that responsiblity and only you can have your feelings. I just want you to stop creating half of them. Half are what they are...the rest are created by you for you and you're not getting it."

I know what you mean. I'm pretty sure. The fear, the selfishness, the worry, the need for control? I'm all about emotion. I have a hard time keeping it all in check. I'm not sure I know where you're going w/ this one I think? Please elaborate.

"You knew you needed MC before your mother said it. You didn't do it. You know you need IC and can do MC by yourself, inviting your spouse when she chooses. Give yourself permission to do this for yourself. Make the appts, do the interviews. You aren't defective, made wrong or unlovable just as you are, without a word or action. Until you get that, you'll be angry."

I know. She just scares me. I'm afraid that if I make the wrong move it's going to push her in the opposite direction. I don't want to start the counseling for myself, and give her a reason to feel comfortable in moving on because she assmues I'll be fine. She just called me a few minutes ago. We talked about the situation for five seconds after I asked her how her day was. She said she doesn't want to keep me there and realize she loves the OM and have me be screwed, but she doesn't want to kick me out and find out she hates eveything after I'm gone. Then she went on to tell me though, that she wishes I could just move out and not be miserble. Is that guilt, sympathy? I'm dying to know? Plus, she said something about me staying there and her having an affair and wondering if that was ok w/ me? I told her it obviously wasn't and asked her where she gets these crazy ideas from. She said "some" of them are jokes and she gets them from watching too much day time television and desperate housewives at work. I told her the cable is getting shut off... >:OP To me, saying something like that's just hateful and disgusting, though (and I shudder to think) it could be honesty... I know deep down that I'm a good guy, that I've just been through some tough times and am having a hard time dealing. It just kills me because I care so much for my wife and daughter and want to be able to do anything it takes to stay w/ them. For better or for worse... until death do you part... Doesn't that mean anything anymore? I don't know.

"You're really sensitive to your wife's anger, aren't you?"

Ummm, yeah!?!?!?! Always have been. I'm easily influenced by outside stimuli. Especially by people I care about, and authority figures. I kind of look at her as both sometimes.

"I've been trying to discuss the issue w/ my wife for some time. The problem I'm having is that she is too angry to care about our situation right now." You judge others' anger and feel okay in doing that because you judge your own. Her anger has control over you. You try to discuss but can't because of her anger. That's what I heard you say. Or is it really her anger? Sounds like you don't feel like you have input into the relationship because it is being cut off by your wife's lack of caring, not anger."

The other problem is I don't know. She keeps telling me that she's angry, and doesn't know how she feels. Yet, she also told me last night that she doesn't love me and that when this all first started, the thought of me being w/ someone else made her sick. She then said it doesn't do that to her anymore. I'd like to think that the anger is causing her not to care, but I can't get a straight answer from her and she tells me there are no guarnatees. Not to mention, I am gawd awful at reading people. My emotions cloud my judgement. I'm am just way too emotional. I don't know how to stop, and I've kind of come to accept it. Not the anger though, that's gotta go. Some other stuff too. The anger was just the easiest to deal w/. If you can give me perspective on this, feel free. I'm all ears.

"See, you can state but not discuss without her. You can choose your actions because they are yours, not hers. Her control ends at her, too. Doesn't feel like it, though, huh?"

Yeah. She keeps telling me over and over that she's said all she has to say and I'm not getting it. Maybe I'm seeing something that's not there? maybe I'm seeing something taht is there taht she doesn't want to/can't see? I keep trying to "talk to her" but it looks like I'm just "talking at her". In reality, I'm trying to talk some sense into her. Not control her necessarily, but atleast have some influence. I feel so much guilt for having "influenced" this to come about, now I'm trying to pick up the pieces and am hoping I can influence things again.

"Are you being selfish staying in your marriage where you are the husband and the father? Do you choose to do right, or do what you believe others want you to do? Is your image, how you're viewed, more important than how you see yourself? Feel free to say yes...no ridicule here. I was that way...I was safer making my choices in the eyes of others than myself. My anger was deadly. I was an abuser. They were my safe place, not me. Until they weren't safe anymore."

I used to aim to please. Not so much anymore, if at all other than w/ my wife right now. I used to never do anything for myself. She used to govern the who's where's and when's. Then, when she stopped, I was so used to it I couldn't kick the habit. She's still got a hold on me like that. I don't like the feeling. If she were who she was 8 months ago, I'd do what I wanted to do being who I am now. The problem is she is who she was 8 years ago now, and I feel like I'm back on the leash. The sad thing is, I'm not even angry anymore. I want this to work so bad I've come to accept it. I am truly my own worst enemy.

"I am sitting here wanting a shortcut...I want you to pop into my present day life with your wife, reaping rewards that stagger your mind, relieve your pain, give your feet a happy dance you've never had before...and I know that's your journey. We were where you were...battling each other, fighting our dependence on each other; the enmeshment, disrespect, reactive, painful and confusion."

Thanx, I think? :O) I want what you have... it's eating me alive I want it so much. It's like that Metallica song No Leaf Clover. I keep seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm afraid it's really just a freight train coming my way. I'm a huge fan of 90's rock/alternative, and listen to music according to my moods frequently. Especially when I'm depressed.

"First lesson...she believes you have to leave because (fill in the blank). "I hear you desire me to leave because you think my presence causes this, this and this, is that correct?"

She's told me she wants me to leave so she can have space, so she can not have to deal w/ the situation. She says that she can't stand looking at me right now, that I make her angry and it's getting worse. She says she doesn't want to deal, or make any decisons, but then goes and talks to this 18 year old (8-9 years her junior!!!) OM at work that has feelings for her because it "makes her feel better and she can be "herself". She's told me she'd like to be able to do things w/ him w/out having to "hear about it", but then tries to convince me that she won't because she doesn't have the time. In reality, she's telling me what i want to hear when she says that it's not happening because of how she views me right now. Then, she says she "doesn't know" how she feels about him or that she's angry at him for things he's done. Ok... This is the one thing that makes me angry right now. Him. I'm furious at him though, and not her. I hate his guts w/ every fiber of my being. Which is unfair because they are both "at fault" here. The problem is I can't be mad at her right now. That and I blame myself for what they have. I know... control over other people. Don't have it. She makes her own choices, and the world isn't my responsibility. Crap. Why do you have to make so much sense? or am I misinterpreting? <:O)


"She may believe you need to leave, and you may believe you need to stay. Both valid viewpoints, not one over the other. Going to counseling together to find out how to hold both beliefs and be respectful of them is essential. It isn't conflict...beliefs change, just like feelings, only you get to choose what you believe.
"

I really want to go see someone and have her go w/ me. She's said herself it couldn't hurt. Then she says it she doesn't see it helping right now, but she doesn't know that for a fact either. Her exact words. I just keep waiting for her to make the appintment because I'm too chicken to do it. I'm a wuss. I'm afraid of the dark for crying out loud. >:OD Do you think she will? The first day, Monday, it was that she didn't feel like it. Then it was, she slept all day and went for a walk, then it was my job demotion and finances and she didn't want to deal w/ it. Today, I'm sure it was telling off her best friend because she made the mistke of telling her I used to be violent, and the girl ran and blabbed to her verbally abusive husband. Is she, isn't she? Got me.

"Staying is the best possible way to save my marriage. It is choosing to live with feelings that tell you you're being rejected, daily. That's your sore spot, the one that ignites all the other emotions. Okay. Something to work on, examine, understand. You can believe staying is best for keeping your family intact and recovering your marriage. No one can get you out of the house, and I think you know that. Even with past abuse...you now know this and don't have to fear it."

I stay because I can't bring myself to leave for any number of reasons that I justify my being there w/. I've actually left before, for about two weeks after a major fight. Stayed w/ my Step-Dad. Difference was, our daughter hadn't been born yet and I was still in the anger stages. It was difficult to go, but I was able to do it. Fear and love seem to be my masters now. It's two against one, w/ me on the losing end. I haven't found a way to win that battle yet. I'm fighting two of my strongest feelings.

"You can do half the housework and spend a lot of time with your daughter because that is what you choose to do, not to please, but to do what you believe is your share. You can wash cars with daughter, make chores playful and creative (Dads rock at this) because you believe in not doing only what you love, but in choosing to love what you do."

In the past, I've done things like this because I thought it was what would make things better. Now I'm doing them because it's what I want. <:O)

"Lots of real power in owning your choices, actions and not being responsible for what you can't be responsible for (lots of rage and frustration in that). You're gonna love being in this situation, Inferno, because your whole life is about to become a lot less work...on the outside."

Sounds great. <:O)Problem is I don't see myself being able to take control unless I'm forced to give up on the situation, or if she alows me back into her life. The irnoy is, she can't control me and if I choose to wait around for her for darn near forever I can. I can't though. We both want to have another kid... She had a goal of 25, which I denied her previously saying I comprimised at one. I've since found taht I'm ready and we are both now shootitng for 30. If I'm not in the picture though... and someone else is... I can't wait through that. I'd just be dillusional then. Somebody shoot me... >:OP

Got any more sage advice? It sounds like I could learn alot from your experiences. My only problem will be trying to incorporate them into my own life. I keep thinking things would be easier if I could get out of that house. It would probably benefit both of us... Atleast I think so... maybe not in the ways I want it too. <:O( I just don't know what the right thing to do is, and I always make the wrong choices or the right ones at the wrong times.

Arrrrggggghhhh!!! <:O) <:O(

I'm my own worst enemy.

"Unfortunately, it wasn't my wife." I must say that I believe strongly that you are fortunate it wasn't your wife. From your second post, I now know you have no belief in your own control, your actions, decisions or a real self love.

A clone of you, like you said, might feel just what you've wanted...because you want control, choice, to trust your decisions and fully love yourself. Can't get that in a clone. It is why affairs die and opposites triumphs. You're here to get lessons, not fix the world...usually feel compelled to do that because it looks easier than fixing ourselves.

Just to mix your already spinning pot...rule of thumb is whatever was the opposite that attracted you both in the first place will be your undoing.

Lots of honest answers in you. I don't doubt your true intent here is to understand your life. What I don't hear is any acceptance or willingness to get answers not in the way you want them or maybe when you want them. Very human. Very destructive.

I'm a compulsive re-explainer. I won't leave you hanging, to the best of my ability.

"So, are you saying that she's stopped and started dancing in a different direction." Nope. I'm saying you change the steps and let go of the results. I don't say what your WW is doing, has done or why...unless you ask me to guess, specifically.

"Everyone tells me that I'm too concerned about everything, all the time." Do you define yourself through others?

I want your focus to be on you, your change, your steps, your intent, beliefs, opinions and feelings. We might have a problem there. You have an aversion to being called selfish.

I did, too.

Let's knock that one out, first. Tell me the difference between selfish, self-absorbed, self-centered and too subjective, please.

"I constantly try to put the weight of the world on my shoulders. I think it stems from one of those "childhood issues" things. I was kind of the outcast... voted shyest in my Senior class. Tried to please everyone all the time. Especially family. I've given that up, but can't seem to stop doing it for my wife right now."

I admire and appreciate your self-disclosure and thinking too much. I believe that shows you really want a way into yourself, permission and knowledge, oh, and you don't want it to hurt too much. Taking on the weight of the world indicates that you basically feel powerless, not significant or worthless. If you can take all the blame (hey, you're defective anyway), then you will feel significant, powerful and own whatever credit you can get for fixing, forgiving, enduring, or sacrficing. Important balance and high level of honesty to get that this is an ego boost instead of altruism.

Did you give up fixing/pleasing or did you change your belief about what fixing/pleasing really is? Sounds like you are good at stopping your actions (can be thought of as letting go or ensuring you don't react in the old pattern). It isn't enough. You have your WW in an inner circle, where you treat her as badly as you treat yourself. I did that. Know that circle...I called it intimacy, trust...and it was plain ol' abuse.

I believe it feels intimate, what I knew of intimate, and am relived to know that feelings give us misinformation from bad beliefs.

Instead of anger, now it is fear. Would it surprise you to know that it was always fear, manifested as anger? You're stripped naked in this situation, your present is vulnerable and scary. No anger to signal you. I believe it is the best place to be...can't change until you get there.

Happy arrival, huh? I am relating closely to you because you know you caused a lot of your own pain and continue to do so. You are compelled to take control and believe your WW has relinquished it. Didn't read my post really well about what your human limitations are, huh? There isn't a "the control" seperate from our own limited human circles. Just like there isn't a "the truth" about what is "really happening" in regards to beliefs, thoughts and feelings.

You have yours and she has hers. The marriage is subject to both of you, correct? Is that the "the control" you are referring to?

Begin not treating your WW the way you treat yourself. Stop. You must treat both of you better. No Golden Rule mishaps. Doesn't work in my book. You need to sit down and create a list of what you will not allow yourself to do to others, which will match the list you won't allow you to do to you; then you'll see those matching lists and create one of boundaries, which is what you won't allow others to do to you. When you stand back up from keeling over, you'll make a list of progressive boundary enforcements...which are actions, progressive in nature, for when someone does cross a boundary, then you must choose to act to enforce, first offense. Second offense (same boundary violation repeated), third offense, etc.

Did you think your answer wouldn't involve homework?

You fear loss. You fear it on many levels and deal with that fear daily; you might not know that you do. Talk about getting to your own core hurts fast. Whoa. What a pleasure. We don't manage our fears, we accept them, trace them back to the beliefs that generate them, and face them by changing the beliefs. Usually takes action. You have to prove trust to yourself as well as your WW. Your responsibility and within your control. Kind of nice to have to do both, isn't it? Rather than one after the other?

You fear the future the most. I read your fear statements and got that you're yanking an unknowable future into your present, and it is kicking and screaming at you. Better listen and let go...reality is all you have is right now. You are used to self-torturing (goes with pleasing/fixing), so address that in a simple promise...stay present. Your emptiness, loneliness and fear will subside every time you refocus on the present and your self in the present. You've neglected and abused your self your whole life. You will feel relief to stop that, also.

Elaborating on how you are a self-abuser: Your words "I'm afraid that if I make the wrong move it's going to push her in the opposite direction." You believe you CAN make a wrong move or choice of action and push her in the opposite direction from where YOU want her to be. This belief says, "Others have no choice, are incapable, but puppets to my amazing control." You know better. In fact, a lot of the pain you are feeling is that she IS choosing but not owning her choices. Your reality is in conflict with your beliefs.

Begin where I did...putting respect in your code (standards and boundaries). To do this, you much have a solid grasp on what respect truly is--that you are seperate and equal to everyone. No judgment...truth. No putting people on different levels, capabilities or talents. Every single person on the planet, including your WW, are the only ones who have their feelings, thoughts and beliefs and chooses to push away from you or draw near; choose to have As or not to; chooses to blame or own their choices. You cannot control others. And they cannot control you.

We influence one another...by our mere presence, let alone our words, how we choose to spend our efforts, time and what we share. Our choices. Not manipulation or control. It is a fantasy...like an A. Isn't real. If you choose your actions based on her reactions you are violating your own code.

She didn't want to tell you of her A because she didn't want to hurt you. That's a HUGE DJ. You did it as well. You know this. In your code, you don't give yourself permission to withhold due to a possible response, positive or negative. If you have honesty in your code, then you MUST be honest and respect her choice of action or reaction are hers. No manipulation. Then you're solidly in reality, not fantasy.

One of you has to be, so I may sound harsh. My marriage had two partners deep in fantasy for 16 years. I'm not guessing here or bashing. It is a hard way to live compared to respect and honesty.

Begin with the choice of counseling...you make it dependent on her and her reactions, then you are saying to your self you are not worth it, not strong, not capable or valuable. Or you believe it will only help her and that you don't need any help?

I don't think you think the latter.

See, when you choose your actions based on the code, they won't look on the outside any differently than if your intent is to control or manipulate. What will be startlingly different will be the results and you internally. You matter. Inside and out.

You lie to your WW and she is presently lying to you. That's not in your code, I bet, either. When she called and said all of those devastating truths (which are hers, not yours), you listened, even validated her beliefs as true for you, as well, because you believed them to be THE truth. She is living in fantasy, in love with fantasy, and wants desperately to have you and the fantasy without you being hurt by it. It is a drug she is begging you to make legal. You said no, not acceptable. Excellent. Then you crossed your own boundary and asked where she got these crazy ideas from...DJ, huge, to yourself and to her.

I'll let you research that one.

Read "Codependent No More" and Harley has one on Identity and Depdendency (I'm not titling it correctly). You have chosen to live externally, be defined through others' reactions to you and it has come to the breaking point. It isn't functional...you want others to be your mirrors, but like Sleeping Beauty's stepmother, only tell you great stuff. Very human. Mirrors are what parents are, not adults to adults. Your self is worth knowing directly, the only honest way, and the time has arrived to stop forcing others to do your work.

Freedom is tired of waiting, Inferno. There's a whole list of books to free you from your self-torture. Whenever you find WW doing something you can't accept, flip it around inside yourself and you will find it is something related to you not accepting is a part of you.

I'm not discounting your pain by discounting WW's information on the phone. Your pain is huge, real and consuming. Know that. Felt that. What I'm trying to say is that all of it isn't her...it is you. Within your real control. Not to suppress, put aside or tell yourself you're wrong to feel...but created by your belief you are what others say you are and that they should love you and not tell you bad stuff.

They don't know you...even your WW. You've hidden so well from yourself, a protection and false safety, they couldn't know you enough to define you. They know your choices, your actions and sometimes, your intent. That's not YOU. You are the only one God allowed to define you. He created you perfectly for a purpose. You've been working your heart out to NOT fulfill that purpose because it entails accepting, loving and know yourself to be loved thoroughly, no earning or actions involved.

It's time.

You fear her anger because you believe if she is angry that you are to blame for that anger. Respect her and know her anger is hers. Yours is yours. She can't cause yours nor you hers.

You can't get all this in one post, either. Don't expect yourself to do that. Seems like you've hit on everything I know from my experience, all in one swipe. Can't we take days, weeks, months to do this? After all, these beliefs go back decades. This pain is part cumulative, don't you think?

I want to stop here because this is a whole lot. Here's a temporary fix...let me know you own your feelings, thoughts and beliefs (whatever they are) and that you do understand that others own theirs, also, even if they don't believe they do right now.

Then re-read your second post and see if you feeling as reactive and hurt by her actions and words if you are not the cause, control or cure for them?

Lemme know.

LA

Ack...still reading on in your post and feel the need to address the leash/control issue of your WW and counseling...

You are scared of doing what I advised, seeking out someone through interview and appt. You are controlling her by putting your fears on her shoulders. You know how effective this is because this is how she controls you...putting her happiness in your hands.

Drop it. Drop it all now...you don't have it anyway. What you do have is a huge burden of self, messy, tangled and in pain you want desperately to drop all over her. That's fantasy, but you both make it your reality.

You value control and shove it down her throat, like a prize. Stop it. Face your fear. You say what you want...a marriage like mine is now...then PROVE it to yourself. Stop betraying yourself, adding yours to hers.

Do not make your actions dependent on her decisions. That is a DJ from heck. That is telling yourself you are incapable, unlovable and valueless. You aren't. You never have been nor will be. That's reality. The fact that you have been living the opposite of this human truth in no way means it is true. And Mr. Pleaser? By self-betraying you allow yourself to betray others. If you aren't of value, then you will only find value in others selectively.

Live authentically. Make the calls to get you to the interviews to get you to counseling. You want your wife and daughter. You want to not fear, feel torn up or continue living in the same way you have been. Time to shine, Inferno. I know you can do this, fears and all.

LA

Ack...another one.

You describe your pain eloquently...got me right there. So, another post. I'm embarrassing myself.

"That and I blame myself for what they have."

They have nothing. Zilch. Nada. It isn't real. He is a symbol for a clean slate...you feel guilty over your past actions and so does your WW. You live externally and so does she. He's her do over, no mistakes that tell her she is a mistake. He's a person making an insane choice to destroy a family. For his own reasons and issues, most of which are youth. Do not look at their A as a relationship...more self-tortue over an untruth.

What you had with your AP wasn't real. Once you get that, your immense pain will drastically drop. Get this, please.

Read more on the forum...about fog, fantasy, OPs and know that you buying into HER beliefs is killing you inside. You're doing that...not her.

LA

Heh. Yeah... this girl had all my same issues, enjoyed all the same things (for the most part), knew what I was thinking ALL THE TIME. Finished my thoughts... you name it. It blew my mind. When I was w/ her, I fealt like I could do or say anything sometimes. Other times I would shut down again. She was just a friend, and eventually we went out seperate ways.

I don't necessarily feel compelled to fix the world because I can't fix myself. I honestly believe that my need for that actually comes from belief in myself. I'm a caring, compassionate, honest guy that finds ways to enjoys life no matter how tough things get. I don't see that in alot of people... and it troubles me. I've always tried my hardest to understand myself. I'm a deep, serious thinker. I like to analyze, and space out constantly because I'm always deep in thought. I like to be adventurous to an extent and love fantasy. I have to admit that I do feel confined by the "limitations" of reality. I'm a dreamer, and inventor. I love the outdoors and nature, love most animals, and luckily enough grew up in the sticks. I like hiking, biking, snorkeling etc... It gives me a sense of exploration. I love video games. That has actually put a damper on a few relationships. Plus music. I like to sing and would die for the chance to learn to play an instrument. I don't mind hard work, but don't like to be pressured into doing it. There's all that, but then there's the other stuff. The "reality" associated stuff. I'm easily influenced by others, can't read people because I tend to see/expect in them what I see in myself. I have a hard time accepting why "we all just can't get along". It troubles me when people see me for something I know I'm not. The future does intimidate me. We only have one life to live, and I want to get as much out of that as possible. Though, I tend to screw myself out of opportunities and blame it on ouside stimuli influencing me... I know now that it's because I let them. When I was younger, I used to actually feel almost like I was invincible. That God had some great plan for me and that I had a great life ahead of me. I let that slip away. I'm assuming it's because I couldn't handle reality, and let my wife's issues influence me. She didn't bring me down, I did. I know I need to steer myself away from this rut... these patterns that I've fallen into. I'm just so used to them, I'm finding it's hard for me to find the way out myself. I need some guidance. I was hoping marriage counseling could help w/ that...? I was kind of hoping after yesterday that you could help me focus and steer myself in the right direction. Maybe help me get back up on my feet so I can start walking on my own again.

I liked her because she was strong willed, passionate, and didn't care about what the rest of the world thought. She's never really told me what she saw in me. I think it was because I was mysterious, rugged, handsome, intellectual, and according to her "the closest she'd ever come to a cowboy." That, and she thought she had issues and I was accepting of them. Though, I'm more a farmer than a cowboy. :O) I love the farm, and helped out on my Grandfather's alot when I was young.

The OM, I've met him a few times. He's me, only the way I was when I was his age. He accepts her for who she is (as I do still, I just wish she wasn't so angry and hurt right now. For her sake and the sake of our marriage), has some of my same interests, my same issues (just from what she's told me... I can see it clear as day), alot of my personality traits. She's said to me at one point that she wasn't sure if she was involved in w/ him because he was just like me. I'm sure you're right about him. I've seen the same things myself and pointed them out to her. He's told her not to get involved w/ him unless she had worked things out between us, but still chooses to be involved w/ her. He's basically given her an open invitation to come back for more, but masking it w/ false intent on having her best interests at heart. He may not see it, but he's done it. I've done it, and have caught myself doing it. I'm STILL doing it. He's young, irrational, irresponsible, and appears to have possible future control issues. He's me all over again... He's a fresh start for her. That's what she wants right now. She's running away from me, sees in me what she wants to see, and has told me that if it's not him it could be someone else. She keeps getting angry that everyone is telling her what to do, and doesn't talk to her. She's getting increasingly frustrated that this won't all just go away so she doesn't have to confront it. It's eating her alive. She looking for anyone to give her a way out, but I don't think that could happen. I think she is in the same boat I am and needs to take control of herself. I should take my own advice. :O) I've told her that. She says she is... total denial from what I can see. I'm increasingly concerned that she is going to run away from us, do something I won't appreciate (as if she isn't already) and then regret it later. We need the couseling. I really want to take the first step myself, but if I'm going to do it I'm going to have a bunch of obstacles that will have to be overcome. I'll have to find a sitter because of our opposite work hours, I'll have to find a ride to and from sessions because we only have one vehicle. I know I need this, and deserve it. I know she does too. I'm still concerned that my decision to do this w/out her is something she will allow to influence her. I'm not sure what I should do about this?

and he's a homewrecker. I've told her that. I've told her that he has issues, but she blames my saying that on my dislike for him. I told her the other night that I didn't like him when I met him. I didn't... Something about him annoyed me. I'm not sure what? It's weird. Just this vibe he gave me. It was irritating. Maybe I saw the things in him that I don't like in me? Though I've never had a conversation w/ him. The one time we went out together, when I first met him, he avoided me like the plague. I was shy back when I was his age too, but maybe that wasn't the only reason he was distant. We took him out for his 18th birthday to go bowling because noone else had done anything w/ him and W wanted to help. Didn't see this coming.

I prefer to be honest, but other people make me feel like I can't be and I'm sometimes not. Very bad, I know. I'm working on it. What is DJ? Can't find it on the acronym list. Mmmm. yeah. I'm having a really hard time accepting anything to do w/ the idea of her moving on. It may sound like I have other acceptance issues too. Part of that's true no doubt, but part of that might be that my writing is always excessively emotional. If a thought pops up, I put it on paper, even if it's not something I truly believe or is just passing.

Good, because some of what you say needs to be re-explained. That or I need a translator. >:OD You're very cryptic in your writing, if that's the right word to use? :O)


So I need to change my steps? and say screw the results? Ouch. That's my biggest issue right now. I've tried to an extent, but need to be pushed or guided or something. If you don't mind, what is your opinion of her actions? Just curious. I won't use it for anything. That'd be trying to take control of her... I think? Am I right?

I try not to define myself by the opinions of others... but it happens sometimes anyway. I know me, the real me. Like a chameleon though, I tend to blend w/ my surroundings, remaining unseen. A defense mechanism I suppose?

I don't mind being caled selfish so much. When that happens, defense mechanisms pop up because I know that I'm really not. I do for others, but only expect respect in return. If I ever feel any other way, it's not my true self talking but a refusal to see that only I can make me truly happy...?

This'll be tough. I have a hard time defining things.

Selfish... The want for uneeded things? trying to obtain them, but at a cost w/ no real gain. Or sacrificing others wants for your own w/ no comprimise. control?

Self-absorbed... Hmm... seeing things your way and not someone elses... w/out comprimise. control again?

Self-centered... being stuck on yourself, thinking you are better than everyone else when we are all equal in some form or another. control yet again?

too subjective... this ones a tough one. had to look that one up. thought I knew but weasn't sure. Looking at things, and putting your own spin on them. Seeing something for what you want/don't want it to be and not for what it really is. Control?

yeah... I can see that. I do take the blame for some things because it gives me the feeling that I can fix it. Reading what you've said here has helped me to find some of the things I used to know. I've kind of forgotten, or set aside the real me over the years. That's not to say that I won't still continue to follow some of the same patterns for now. Old habits are hard to break.

I am good at stopping some actions. Others, I try w/ little success. I honestly believe I've stopped pleasing. Back when i was young, I let my family control my life. Especially my Mom. i did what ever to please her because she did her best as a single Mom to do what was right and to keep us on the straight and narrow. i got carried away. When this all went down, my Mom told me how she felt and what i needed to do. I let her have it. told her i was old enough to make my own decisions (though i wasn't mentally stable enough at the time)> I haven't backed down from taht since. My family has been trying to gain control of the situation for me since this started. I've let them know how i feel and that my life is my own time and again. they've respected taht to an extent. My wife blames me for their actions, though I know it's not my fault. I think she does it because of how she feels about their opinion of her, because she feels i should defend her, and because she feels like she has no control over them. if I'm doing something to her I shouldn't be, please point it out. I still tell her I love her and can't change that. I still try to touch her, hug her, etc... I cry around her, etc... Try to tlk to her, even when she doesn't want to because I need to talk and want to be able to talk to her. I haven't been eating and sleeping regularly, and that irritates her. My trying to please her doesn't feel intimate, or good. I actually don't want to have to do it all the time. I mean, I like to tell her she looks nice, ask her about her day, help her w/ things... Things like that, and beyond. Not talking to family, or going to counseling, or crying, or not expressing myself. That doesn't make me feel good at all, and I only take it to an extent. I want to please her as my partner, to repay her for all she does for me and because it feels good, not please her anger because I think it will make her love me. Right now, I'm not complying w/ that.

I just got back from a walk w/ some of the girls here in the office. I got to thinking. One of my goals is to be considerate of others, w/out trying to be pleasing or relying on their opinions of my character for self-gratifiction. I'm not completely dependent on other people, but I'm totally independent either.

I'm not surprised. Didn't really stop to think about it yesterday though. She's always scared me. It's her strong will and her ability to throw her morals/beliefs/ideals out the window when she's angry that has me cowering. I scare easily, and am not a figher at heart. When I do fight, it's the adrenaline talking and the fear that's telling it what to say. I'm laid back, BUT... what some people see in me as part of that isn't really what they think they see. I think it's helped me already. Not having the anger and all. Before I would have let the anger justify everything for me... and it allowed me to see things for what I wanted them to be. Now I just need to find a way to not be afraid so much. I feel like If I'm not afraid, it'll look like I don't care and I'll be sending the wrong signals. I'm almost positive that the issue here is that I feel like the fear gives me control and I push that on her. Didn't you actually say that? I'll have to read futher...

I know I'm my worst enemy. :O) Hasn't she relinquished control though? She's running the other way instead of facing the issues at hand, or aleast trying to figure things out for herself. It looks like she's out of control. She's slowly letting her world swallow her like I did. I felt like I had lost all control over my life and it drove me close to insanity. She is where I was. I'm almost certain. I tried to run too, but wound up facing my demons because I'm the type of guy that can't give up. She's strong willed when she is in control, but in when she loses that... I've seen her sanity levels dip below the red line. I hate to say it, but I've influenced that on more than one occassion. I know what she can take, and what she can't. That's why I'm so concerned... I see her slipping away every day. She needs help. We both do, but because she doesn't trust me this time I'm not sure how I can be the one to help her recover?

The control I'm referring to? I guess? She's givjng up on our marriage because she can't control herself... So I'm trying to champion our marigae and help her to gain back some of that control. Only, i have issues of my own and by far am no life coach. I may be doing all the wrong things and not even realizing it. Like w/ the "crazy ideas" line. I said it as a half-joke, but never stopped to think that it might be damaging. Up until recently, my sense of humor consisted mostly of witty sarcasm. I didn't know my limits sometimes. Other times, I did and crossed them anyway. I'm kind of glad that has sort of disappeared. It did more harm than good in some instances.

I'm not sure how I should apply the things I'm not doing to myself to how I'm treating her? So... If I'm not going to be afraid of her, that should fix itself by me not projecting my fears onto her? I'm kind of fuzzy on this. I'm not going to belittle myself, so don't do it to her. I need some specific do's and don'ts here. I think here are things I do and say to her now that are damaging our relationship w/out me knowing it. Like last night, she came home from work and I got up like usual because I can't sleep w/ her there. It gets me to thinking'wishing when she's around. She got talking to me about how a guy at work seperated from his G/F, how they live apart bu now they get long great. I said that maybe my leaving is inevitable then. She said she'll just get working on it then. I told her not to rush it any faster than she wanted to. She went to say that she'll do it for safeties sake anyway. I fealt like I had shot myself in the foot. I suppose she was going to do what she wanted to anyway. Though, maybe if I hadn't said something about it I wouldn't have influenced her to give it some more consideration? I don't know that my being there is the right thing anyway... what's your opinion? I'll have to get on those lists. I'll have you know that i hate homwork though. :O) I didn't do it form 5th grade on because I hate feeling forced into working. I like my free time, and have this need to work at my own pace. I'm a hard worker, don't get me wrong. I just get a little lazy when I'm not working toward a cause I believe in? Something like taht. Not so much anymore though. I'll do the homework, but I'll give you "the glare" for assigning it. >:OD The only reason I graduated was because I'm a smart son of a gun that can ace a test any day of the week and did just enough to get by.

I fear loss. Boy do I. I have a thing for the past. The future scares me, and the present forces me to deal. I hang on to things that I had, instead of reaching out to new ones. I hate change. Abhor it. Another goal that I've actually started working on. Getting demoted at work a few days ago made that one easier. I have some trust in myself and her, but it's incomplete. More now than I did. Though fear is making it hard for me to trust her right now. More goals.

Actually I fear needles the most. I hate injections. Stems from 5-6 major surgeries at a very young age. I cry when myself or other people get shots and almost fainted when I got my ear pierced at 17. The future is probably second w/ fear of change mixed in there. I've had rough times (but a good life), and am afraid the rest of it will be no different. I just feel like I've suffered enough and would like it if I could escape having the most gawd awful things happen to me all the time. I manage to survive them, but each one steals a little bit more of the hope that I have. I stop myself from doing alot of things by feeling that way. Yet another goal. :O)

Yeah.. I guess I'm conflicted there... I guess I haven't gotten completely past the blame she puts on me for all of this? I haven't quite forgiven myself, but do I need to?Puppets to my amazing control. Heh. <:OD That's funny. I've always thought of myself as being good at manipulating people when it suited my needs. Not that it's something I'm proud of. It goes along w/ my trying to please people, but doing it for the wrong reasons. I've used people's faith in me as a good person to my advantage, but always feel guilty afterward. Shame in me. In this case though, I feel like she is making her own choices w/out accepting responsibility for them. My control is practically non-existant here. I'm just hoping to pass on some positive influence. I just need to be shown where I'm crossing that line between the two and not realizing it.

Control is an illusion. Influence is real. Gotcha. I think? A's are illusions of control? I think I got that one too.

Yeah, I like to think I'm honest, but know I have the skill to be manipulative. I need to stop trying to control others, and learn to control myself.

Yeah, we both saw things for something they weren't. She told me when we first started all this garbage that she thought we had a great life (and we did for the most part) and assumed that I was just a miserable person at heart. She tells me now that I'm not he same person. I am, just w/out all the anger. Though, if that's all that she's seen or is seeing then I guess to her I'm really not. I suppose I had to look at things from her perspective and not mine. Duh!

Right now, I'm just worried that my choice to proceed w/ counseling w/out her will be a strong influence on her decisions because it looks as though she truly feels that she doesn't love me and doesn't want to work this out. I know it'll benefit both of us, but right now I think it will benefit her more and that she needs to be strong enough to take that first step toward "recovery". How does that go? You can't help those who won't help themselves... I dont' feel comfortable w/ that decision... It's a gut feeling, just from knowing her and how she reacts. I almost think it's not the fear talking this time. I just know her... she doesn't think I do right now, but I do. She asked me if I did one time. I told her the things that made me fall in love w/ her, but didn't get into her weaknesses. Maybe that was a mistake on my part? I want her to benefit from this too. I just don't how to help that along. If you still think I'm wrong, let me know.

You're right. I can think of specific instances lately where I told her what she wanted to hear rather than how I fealt. My problem has been trying to convey those feelings w/out sounding harsh or controlling. Old habits die hard. She's in bad shape already. I don't want my influence on her to break her, if I have any right now. I'm curious? How do you think she is lying to me? I can't read her at all. I keep thinking I'm getting mixed signals, but she goes on to tell me that she's been perfectly clear w/ her intentions. She is influencing me. I think I need an experienced, outside opinion. Do you think it's too late? Do we have a chance? Do you think she's messing around? What exactly is your take on her situation? I'll try and make things work regardless. I just really want to know what is going on in that head of hers, and what direction she plans to go in. Just for piece of mind. Does it really matter if I know? Should I be asking? I'd like to think I'm doing it for good reasons and not because I have some hidden agenda. I've gotta stop doubting myself. Another goal. I would really just like to see her come out of this not regretting something later, and being happy. Sure, I'm a little selfish and want that happiness to partially come from being w/ me. At the same time, I know she was happy w/ me ont time, just as I am w/ her, and see no reason why it couldn't be taht way again if she could get past her issues and allow it... you know what's weird. I put off getting married to her for years, saying I wasn't ready. The day we stood there and said our vows though... I looked into her eyes and fealt happiness and peace like i have never fealt before. When she looked at me though, she kept looking away, was nervous and told me I was looking at her weird later on. She's never liked it when I stare at her, or when anyone else does it for that matter. I just can't help it sometimes though. She just fills this huge void in my life, and allows me the luxury of being able to share all the love I have for her. That means the world to me. That's why I'm so afraid to lose her. I've never loved anyone the same. Even w/ all the problems we've had. I can't see myself living w/out her after all these years. Is that an issue?

If I'm to research that, where should I look. I only have so much time in a day to use a computer. I can't buy books for now because of money issues and her controlling my enitre paycheck. I give it to her willingly. If I need something I ask for it. That's never been an issue, unless I'm whining because I can't afford a video game or something like some litle kid. That has been an issue for her sometimes. She's given me the money when we didn't have it because she didn't want to listen to it. Something else I've been working on. I have lot to work on<:O(


Wow. I think I'm honest, compassionate etc... I want people to be more like me. I've never really looked at that as being self-absorbed? I just thought it was a good thing to want for people... Am I right in the direction I'm going in w/ this? I'm kinda torn on that one.

So, is she angry out of fear and I'm unaccepting because i can't get rid of it in myself? There are some things she does/says tht I can't tolerate that I don't see in me to accept. maybe I'm confused here too? This is alot to digest, and I didn't sleep much last night.

Yeah. I know that I have no right or ability to make her love me. It just kills me because I love her and don't see why I should have to give that up just yet. Maybe i don't have reason to yet... I don't know because she can't give me any guarantees or concrete reasons why i should. I suppose there are no guarantees, but if there'a chance that this could work and she hasn't done anything taht would kill my love for her... I'll keep trying. Are my feelings wrong? I mean, I don't like to be told bad things... but I'd rather she be honest than not tell me things, even if I have myself convinced that I'd rather not know. It just kills me to not know the extent of the truth in what she says. The one thing that bothers me more, is not knowing whether or not she's had a PA w/ this guy. I've been forgiving of that sort of thing in the past. I feel violated and betrayed, but everyone can't be perfect. Not knowing kills me just as much. I don't know. I feel like I can trust he not to have done that (yet). I just want to help her out of this funk before it's too late. We create our feelings? I guess. Though I've never believed that was true in regards to true love. That one always seemed out of our control to me.

I thought she knew me. Maybe she lost that knowledge over time, or is having a temporary case of amnesia? Maybe I'm wrong and she never had it? That's kind of scary.

I don't know about that... I've always fealt that her anger was unwarranted, as was mine. I accept responsilibility for it though because it's what pleases her and i feel like i can make it better if i caused it. It's not her anger I fear, it's the decisions she makes when she's angry taht scare me. Maybe I'm not explaining myself appropriately, or maybe I'm just in denial.

Yeah, I've got along road ahead of me. Everyone keeps telling me that. It just seems to me that she is progressively getting worse, and may not be able to help herself like I did. I'm sure it seemed to people like I couldn't help myself either though. I just know that she can fall farther than me. I'm concerned for her, our daughter and our marriage.

I see what you mean. I have no control over what she says or does. Just some influence, if that right now. If I do have influence, I'm not sure I'm doing and saying things to promote a positive one.

I'm not so much afraid of what she does or says right now as I am afriad for her. I still want this to work, and fear that it won't but the way I figure is that worrying about the future isn't going to get me through the present. I need to deal w/ now and not later. I really want to help her overcome this... she and the OM aren't going to make that easy though. I hope I can find the time to figure out how to deal w/ that one. I'm fairly limited here. This seems to be helping. You're awesome. I know I have futher to go, and that I'll be tempted to fall back into old habits. Just pray for me, and if you have any more encouragement or wisdom to share don't hold back. :O)

I've not told her that I won't make the appointment. I have however told her that I was disappointed that she didn't.

I suppose I have been controlling her w/ fear. She's said I'm guilting her into things, and she keeps me there because of my reaction to having to leave. It was genuine, but I did push it on her.

So, I guess letting her take the steps toward moving me out is ok then if she decides to do that? I should just try to continue the counseling thing on my own if she doesn't take th initiative, do my best to help her along and let her know I care? My only concern then is the OM if that's where I'm headed. If I'm not there, what is stopping her from pursuing a seemingly, inevitably destructive/fruitless relationship w/ this idiot? Seems my being there and "guilting' her out of it may be the only thing stopping it from coming to fruitition. What happened w/ you and the H? Was there an A? Did you seperate? I guess I'd just like to know where I might be headed. Especially since I'm not sure of all the steps I need to take. My other big concern/fear/etc... is that my Mom and Step Dad went through the same thing. He was abusive for a time, then was just downright miserable. She turned to OM's, he started counseling and whatever, but she gave up and now takes advantage of him while having affairs w/ losers and married men. She was never that way before, but couldn't take control of her actions at some point and hasn't still. It's that or something changed in her that never changed back. He's still miserable, says he's changed but hasn't, and she takes advantage of him while he wishes she'd come around even though he bad mouths her for her actions. My wife has told me that I should just call her and my Mother even. I don't see it that way, unless she has done something I don't know about.

I don't think I'll react to that so much now as I will feel concern for her. My Mom has been miserable ever since, and I don't want to see my wife end up this way, but it looks like that's where she's headed. I really want to help her. My step dad did the counseling thing on his own, but my Mom didn't bother to accept his invite. Though, he clearly hadn't changed and she knew it. My wife told my Mom that she has no guarantee that things won't be the same laer because I haven't made any changes in my life. What can i do to show her that I have? I feel like she's looking for me to make some drastic move here? I just don't know what move is the right one? What was your turning point? Also, I've told her and still tell her taht I'd like to be able to work this out and have another kid later. She then tells me that she she would too, but doesn't see it being w/ me. She say alot of things like that. How should I react, what should i say when she tells me that this won't work, or that she sees herself being w/ an OM and libing her life the way she wants to? I want to focus on the present, but need to know how to deal w/ her apparent need to look to the future that she'll have w/out me. Her "fantasy" I guess. Though it could ultimately be a reality. One that I'm not concerned w/ though, because I'm living in the now. :O) I just hope she hasn't had a PA. Man, that bothers me. I'll try not to let it.

More guidance plaese. :O)

That's a concern for me. She has told me taht at first she thought that there was something wrong w/ her, then she told me later that she realized that my "OM" wasn't better than her. Now that I think about it though, she has told me recently that she would like to meet my "OM" so she can see what was so great. She does also mention that I nitpicked her and made her feel imperfect. That's something he's apparently alleviating for her. I've called him a homewrecker, but she doesn't see it that way because she is oblivious. She refers to his "offer" to leave her alone, tha was really an invitation. She also refers to her choice to pursue that avenue, and tries to accept all the blame. In her eyes, he's near perfect despite the blatant wrongs he's commited and her having been angry at him before. I'll try not view their A as a relationship. I see it more as the whole confidant thing anyway, w/ him having feelings for her but her being unsure. It's that whole PA thing. That drives me nuts! my AP? Another one not on the list. PA's just get under my skin and make me sick to my stomach. I can forgive them, but they just rub me the wrong way.

You're right. I'm looking at what she says will happen as inevitable. I need to look at this as what happens now can alter that. It's gonna come back to the uncertainty of a PA though and my lack of knowledge on how to help her through this. That's what I need to get past. Unless you see something I don't.

BTW... I appreciate the posts. The sooner I digest all of this, the more comfortable I feel about putting a plan into action. That's probably my fear of the future again though... crap. <:O)

I just went back and read that last long reply of mine. It looks like my attitude started to improve as it went on. Sorry for all of the errors. You'd think I was mentally challenged or something.

I just put your theories to the test. My daughter called to tell me that she was going to spend the night at my Mom's house tonight. My wife has to work. W gets on the phone... tells me bout a new CD coming out she thought I'd be interested in. Says my Mom is there now to pick up our daughter. Here it comes...

She asked me if my Mom had mentioned counseling to me, because she offered to pay for it. I told her yes. She aksed me what she said. I told her taht she was still waiting for her to make the appointment. My wife said that she thought maybe she had decided not to pay for it. She said that if i really want her to she can call around if it will make me feel better. I told her that i had seen here that you should interview hese people bfore going anyway. She got miffed at that. Asked me who I've been talking to. I said one person on the marriage bullders website. She said fine whatever and scoffed. She then said that she hasn't called because she only has one day off next week and we'll have to go later.

Obviously, my wife's way of saying she either doesn't want to go, or doesn't want to deal w/ this. I think that she will get angry if i go by myself. She'll lokk at it as me telling them a one-sided story and will get pissed if i try to step up. Not that I shouldn't go, but I'm saying that I don't know how to handle that situation if/when it arises.

she then said, that's ok because she is in lov ew/ Dave anyway, doesn't want to go and noone can say she didn't tell them so. i said oh yeah, she said yeah and it was left at that.

here we go. She said it, I can't control it. I didn't let it bother me. I'm focussed on fixing the issues. problem is A) I didn't know how to respond. B) I don't know if she is telling the truth or not. My only hope is taht it's not to late to fix this. we'll see. I've gotta do what's right for me anyway, right? It's too bad I love her so much. Sometimes I wonder if I'm wasitng my time. I think maybe I shouldn't bother at all and should move on. that's when i get stupid. A) I wouldn't be trying to make this work if i didn't want it. B) it's those times that I'm most lonely and vulnerable and that'll only lead to an A C) I don't know how she really feels and things can always change.

After taht I made a mistake. A stuopid one at that. I asked her if she still wanted to go... Good lord. I'm 99 % positive that was a mistake. her response was getting mad and saying that she wasn't talking about it right now.

Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. I was giving her a way out, and trying to please her again. The worst part of it is, I was justifying it by thinking that it would meet her needs. What the heck was i thinking?!?!?! I realized, as soon as I said it, that I did it out of habit and kicked myself really hard.

this is why I need some sort of guidance. An action plan of sorts. maybe even a detailed description of what i should do here. i dunno. I'll take whatever is offered. I just don't want to keep making mistakes. I need to be presenting a positive influence, while not trying to control antything but my own life. All this talk seems kind of cheesy to me, but I guess that's just because it all sounds so technical and I keep thinking that life can't be this complicated. I'm used to trying to solve my own problems too. We see how far that got me. :O)

Am I wrong in thinking that she needs help and in trying to find a way to help her? if i can only control me, then am i trying to control her by trying to help her get past these issues? I'm doing it because I care, but is that a justification or a valid act of kindness. I'm doubting myself, but i think it's because this is all new to me.

We don't have PM's here do we? makes sense. just curious

I just read some of the letters in the Q&A section on infidelity. In one of the responses, Dr. Harvey clearly states that what I'm doing is wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm obviously not meeting her emotional needs. I think that if she wants me to move out I probably should. I don't know. I need to talk to her more, and make her feel like she can be herself w/out passing judgement.

Do you honestly think I can do this? Do you think I have a chance at making this work? I love her and want to make this work. I see myself making mistakes though, and right now I don't think I can afford any. Dr. Harvey, in most instances, seems pretty skeptical himself on it working out for us when approaching just one of the problems we've had. Combine them all together, and it looks like our marriage was going to crash and burn before it even got off the ground. I'll keep working on my issues and focussing on the present for now. it looks like I might need more help than I thought though? I'll do what I can.

looking forward to hearing from you LA (or anyone else). I'll be here Sunday morning bright and early. have a good weekend.

Tidbits on your OW and connection. When you have that "just finishes my thoughts for me!" feeling, you are two years old and not in an adult relationship. Think about it...the whole respect issue is to not to allow yourself to finish another person's thoughts...leap ahead and assume, mindread...whether they get it right or wrong, they are doing a DJ...and you are applauding them for it. You hate your wife doing that because she gets it wrong. A double-standard, no balance and a very unreasonable hidden expectation you have and what symbolizes connection to you.

Look intensely at your desire for a relationship to be like...where you're already so known you don't have to communicate yourself well and fully. That means you don't want your power of choice nor responsibility for your part in intimacy. Very common in affairs. We train our marriage partners to do this...and when they don't do it correctly we are hurt and bash them. When they do it well, we reward them. All from our irrational belief of what constitutes love.

These are the hard things I want to you really look at. Our beliefs control our lives...feelings...most of our thoughts. Respect them and change them where they are destructive. To save yourself and your marriage.

"I don't necessarily feel compelled to fix the world because I can't fix myself. I honestly believe that my need for that actually comes from belief in myself. I'm a caring, compassionate, honest guy that finds ways to enjoys life no matter how tough things get. I don't see that in alot of people..." The world is full of caring, compassionate, honest and respectful people...everywhere. That you don't see them says a lot about you. I have no doubt you demonstrate these qualities.

I am doing everything in my willpower and heavy prayer to direct you to yourself...I am limited to what you believe and what you choose to be real for you or not.

Have you exposed her A to everyone? Including his parents and family?

And yes, most AP's pretend that they aren't doing what they are doing, tell your WW to go back and work on her issues, being just as you say, open and willing to destroy a family for a little fantasy.

You said you love fantasy.

How do you like it now?

On counseling: " but if I'm going to do it I'm going to have a bunch of obstacles that will have to be overcome."

God is showing you something really important here. You have a want. You have stated this want. Then you realize all the "have-to's" there are on the way to get to your want. You see them as obstacles...they are part of the path, not in the way. They are have-to's, very important...if you allow the have-to's to lessen your want or change it...then that is your choice.

How much do you want your marriage?

How much do you want to change yourself and be an awesome dad and husband?

How much do you NOT want to repeat this relationship over and over again, with or without your wife?

There are many more have-to's...the larger the want, the greater the have-to's...when you are hungry and want a sandwich, the have-to's are small, but so is the significance of the sandwich.

What I tell you about OM and yourself is for you. Not for you to tell her. "and he's a homewrecker. I've told her that." Stop telling your WW what she already knows. Stop disrespecting her and telling her beliefs are wrong. This information is for your beliefs, not hers.

You cannot convince, inform, control or force your WW to get help, believe as you do, feel your pain or think from your perspective. Thank God we aren't designed that way...then you could imagine intense suffering, non-stop, because we lavishly share our pain and hold our precious happiness tightly. Humans. Designed this way for a reason.

"He accepts her for who she is (as I do still, I just wish she wasn't so angry and hurt right now." I believe you are lying here about your belief you accept her for who she is...if you do, you don't demonstrate it in your words, needs or actions. I don't believe you're intentionally lying to us, rather to yourself. You want to accept her for who she is but you don't. That would be a truth I understand very well.

We accept the person and judge their actions. Actions can be unacceptable...people can't.

"but other people make me feel like I can't be and I'm sometimes not." Oh, look...:::reaching down in the circular file::: I found your power. Why do you repeatedly throw it away?

You choose to not be honest. Own it. You choose to be honest at times. Own that. You have a belief you are responsible for other people's beliefs...which is a lie you tell yourself...they are fragile, don't learn their lessons on their own, must be protected, helped...taken out on their 18th bday...and don't you feel darn grand when you choose to be generous, when honesty matters more.

Your truth seems a scarce commodity.

Disrespectful Judgments (DJs) are all about your beliefs riding over others' or you withholding your truth to get a reaction you want. Deceitful, lying, manipulative, awful human choice of behavior. You make this one a lot, Inferno...you are so dependent on the results you want instead of the integrity you have that I'm not sure I can help you.

I believe you can get there, but I may not be enough to break your stranglehold on control.

Look up "reallyconcerned" thread "Seeking Experience and Attention To Detail"...she is in the same boat as you are, only her self-truths are higher right now. Can you get there?

" I'm having a really hard time accepting anything to do w/ the idea of her moving on."

Do you believe acceptance is approval?

Do you believe forgiveness is approval?

I believe they are three different things entirely. Accepting reality is focusing on staying in a just perspective.

You have no control whether your wife moves on or not.

I'm tiring of the repeating part.

Accept this truth, you aren't not invincibile, superhuman and have a special right to control others...you don't. Your incredible resistance to acknowledge your equality and let go your superiority (which is insecurity, same as inferiority) has been cutting you in half for all of your life. Not about your wife...you. Period.

"If a thought pops up, I put it on paper, even if it's not something I truly believe or is just passing."

Inferno...I was this way, too. My fatigue in repeating to you that which I don't see (maybe in the way I want it as I want it said) you comprehending or believing...is due to wrestling with myself. I remember this, the entrenchment, the fear, the automatic responses and making decisions from my feelings.

Got me into your situation. Right there. All that. Stop doing that and you'll get different results...that you can't know or work toward, make happen...that you accept. You act to your standards and accept reality.

Not going to nag on you again. If I do not answer a question, I know that you'll know I've already answered it.

Have to leave it at that.

I feel exhausted, like you are fighting me. You are stating things that you don't believe, just what pours out so you can look at it. The problem is, you are doing this in answer to my questions, pouring it out when I asked for what you believed. Please don't waste my time.

I ask you for your real beliefs...you believe you aren't trying to fix the world because you can't fix yourself. You repeatedly say you want to choose differently but don't. I hear you saying that you acknowledge this about yourself but don't want to be that way. What should you do if you want something and it has obstacles?

I respect you more than being where you spew. I encourage you to respect yourself more and give yourself less permissions to do damage and disrespect.

" Try to tlk to her, even when she doesn't want to because I need to talk and want to be able to talk to her."

This is the definition of selfishness..you put your needs and wants ahead of her needs and wants. You define talking to her as a need you can't control and one only she must fill for you. This is selfish manifest as disrespect and entitlement...

You have lived this life:

A big case of entitlement, fueled by resentment and a lack of respect.

Do you want to change your life? Begin here.

Fearing selfishness doesn't make you unselfish.

"You're very cryptic in your writing, if that's the right word to use? :O)" You are the first person to ever say that. You believe I am cryptic. I hear that. I am explaining my beliefs and experiences the best I know how to do. I believe I'm repeating myself over and over again.

"I didn't know my limits sometimes. Other times, I did and crossed them anyway. " This is a great sentence that wraps up what I keep hearing...tell me, tell me, no, I can't/won't am not capable...okay, that one fits, give me more, tell me, tell me...ahhh, too bad. None of those work for me.

Witty sarcasm? Sarcasm is abusive. An LB.

"I do for others, but only expect respect in return." What you do for others is your choice. You do not respect others so your expectation for it from others might lead you to disappointment. Unless you mean admiration for your generosity, which is not respect.

You want me to tell you what I think of your WW's actions? Same as all WS...they do and say what they want fiercely to be true. Their truth is askew. So was yours. You know what she's doing because you did it. Gave yourself all the reasons it was okay to go to another, be filled by another, making the other particular and special, as if their essence was reason enough to do it.

We marry our opposites, but become enmeshed in our marriages; what you did to her, she does to you, tit for tat, bash for bash, touch for touch, love for love. Look for that pattern...and your expectation that what you did for her would be returned in kind. That isn't an act of love, but bartering.

You said you are relieved not feel the anger all the time and now want the fear to go...like you can eliminate your feelings, is that correct? One by one? All the ones you don't want? How reasonable is that?

What if you rid yourself of fear and become consumed by shame; constant, raining shame. Would that be better?

Would you rather have manageable feelings or only certain ones...God gave them all to you for a reason, key to being human.

Sounds like your belief is--get rid of whatever is in you that is bad and only be good.

Is that correct?

Too much for now...must work and think. Cryptic? Really?

LA

Tidbits on your OW and connection. When you have that "just finishes my thoughts for me!" feeling, you are two years old and not in an adult relationship. Think about it...the whole respect issue is to not to allow yourself to finish another person's thoughts...leap ahead and assume, mindread...whether they get it right or wrong, they are doing a DJ...and you are applauding them for it. You hate your wife doing that because she gets it wrong. A double-standard, no balance and a very unreasonable hidden expectation you have and what symbolizes connection to you.

Not true. My wife knows me well enough to finish some of my sentences and thoughts. I like that we are two seperate individuals though. I wouldn't want to live the rest of my life w/ a clone of me. It sounds "safe" (though I haven't always been a "safe" person now have I), but where's the fun in it? I never eeally thought of it as a DJ (which I am still unsure of in terms of meaning) though? or anything bad really? Hmmm...

"I don't necessarily feel compelled to fix the world because I can't fix myself. I honestly believe that my need for that actually comes from belief in myself. I'm a caring, compassionate, honest guy that finds ways to enjoys life no matter how tough things get. I don't see that in alot of people..." The world is full of caring, compassionate, honest and respectful people...everywhere. That you don't see them says a lot about you. I have no doubt you demonstrate these qualities."

you're right it does. Hmmm... When i wrote that, I was looking at it as a good thing. it doesn't look so great anymore. I'm seeing that the whole time i blamed the world for my negative feelings I was doing it unfairly. I was looking for faults in people, and projecting myself onto them I guess... If that makes sense? Man. Crazy stuff.

"Look intensely at your desire for a relationship to be like...where you're already so known you don't have to communicate yourself well and fully. That means you don't want your power of choice nor responsibility for your part in intimacy. Very common in affairs. We train our marriage partners to do this...and when they don't do it correctly we are hurt and bash them. When they do it well, we reward them. All from our irrational belief of what constitutes love."

Yeah... I've been angry at my wife for not understanding me before. Which is contradictory to what i said previously. It was the anger talking though, because when i felt that way it was always afeter i had already been angry for a little while. I wouldn't ever talk to her though when i was like that, and when i did i said alot of things I didn't mean. I like talking to her. I like that she doesn't know everything about me. it gives me something to share and discuss w/ her. We don't talk enough though. Her working nights, and my working days definitely put a strain on me and contributed to the episode I had those months ago. By the time she offered to change her works hours though, it was already too late and I had been begun my descent.

"Have you exposed her A to everyone? Including his parents and family?"

Heh. Everyone at her job knows, the people I talk to at mine know, my family knows, and I believe his family (atleast his brother) knows. I don't know about the rest of this family. I haven't dared to go near him. She has threatened me regularly saying that she will kick me out, get revenge, etc... if I get involved in that aspect of her life. My brother in law went to her job at one point and told a friend of his that works there to tell him he was going to kick his a$$. My brother has spied on them. My sister has called there and asked for "homewrecker OM" when both he and other people have answered the phone. I'm trying to keep my family under "control" (yuck, I don't like that word now)... though, is that the right thing to do? I know I can't control other people, including my wife's reaction of blaming me for their antics. I just don't know if their involvment is benefitting my attempts to remove him from the picture, or hindering it from a "fixing my marriage" perspective. I would assume not... it can't be good to go around ticking him off. I'm sure he'll be that much more determined after that. I'm not sure his parents know about all of this? They're kind of rich, but from what I understand his family is disfunctional and his parents have a crappy marriage.

My W told me again yesterday taht she knows she should give him up and that it wouild be the right thing to do. Problem is, she can't because her feelings of distrust and anger toward me won't allow it. She still tells me she is unsure ofher feelings for him. I have alot to tell you about this weekend. I'm pretty proud of myself, and would like to have more days like yesterday and some even better ones too. I know i made some mistakes though, and it's too early to even begin to think things are better.


"And yes, most AP's pretend that they aren't doing what they are doing, tell your WW to go back and work on her issues, being just as you say, open and willing to destroy a family for a little fantasy."

Been there and done that several times. Though, the first few times i did it in a way that definitely didn't benefit me. I've gotten much much better about that. Though, old habits die hard and i still catch myself saying things that are damaging, but try to correct them when i do. I'm having a tough time in regards to him. She feels for him because she says he is me, only nice. I have alot to discuss about yesterday... and Friday night.

"You said you love fantasy. How do you like it now?"


Ouch. Yeah, not so much now. cripes.

"God is showing you something really important here. You have a want. You have stated this want. Then you realize all the "have-to's" there are on the way to get to your want. You see them as obstacles...they are part of the path, not in the way. They are have-to's, very important...if you allow the have-to's to lessen your want or change it...then that is your choice."

yeah.. there i go making excuses out of fear of her possible rejection. Trying to justify my future action of not having followed through. I want it. I'll make the effort and will do it w/ or w/out her.

"There are many more have-to's...the larger the want, the greater the have-to's...when you are hungry and want a sandwich, the have-to's are small, but so is the significance of the sandwich"

I have/had a habit of dumbing down the significance of things in my life to justify my lack of enthusiasm for making an effort. I have a had defeatist? attitude and just don't even bother because all i can see is a failed outcome. I'm not doing that anymore, atleast i don't plan to. One day does not a reformed individual make.


"What I tell you about OM and yourself is for you. Not for you to tell her. "and he's a homewrecker. I've told her that." Stop telling your WW what she already knows. Stop disrespecting her and telling her beliefs are wrong. This information is for your beliefs, not hers."

Yeah, I kinda knew my running and telling her things was wrong, but not until afterward. It's my way of inadvertantly saying to her "haha I'm right and you are wrong, so now you need to correct your mistake". What should I be saying when the subject of OM comes up? I don't want to be dishonest and not tell her that I don't agree w/ her being involved w/ him. To me, not saying anything is the same sometimes? Recently, I've taken to telling her that I don't agree w/ her seeing him, but it is her choice to make and if she has feelings for someone else then then i can't change that. I can see some things wrong w/ that. I see some control in there, plus a defeatist attitude on my part. A little bit of guilting her into pushing him away? I think what i should be saying is that I love her, that I'm working to better myself and am hoping that maybe she'll find her feelings for me again? That's practically saying the same thing when i think about it...

"He accepts her for who she is (as I do still, I just wish she wasn't so angry and hurt right now." I believe you are lying here about your belief you accept her for who she is...if you do, you don't demonstrate it in your words, needs or actions. I don't believe you're intentionally lying to us, rather to yourself. You want to accept her for who she is but you don't. That would be a truth I understand very well."

Crash and burn. You're right. Again. Didn't think about it. I haven't been accepting of her anger or her feelings for me as they stand. I've been resenting them. Treating them as an obstaacle to me getting what I want. I've been telling myself that I was though... I guess I was trying to fault her for having those feelings and make myself look better than her by saying that I was ok w/ them. Alot changed for me after reading what you had to say at the end of last week. I still have some work to do though. I want her to not be angry. I love her. I feel bad for her because she is suffering right now and doesn't have to. Just like I didn't.

"but other people make me feel like I can't be and I'm sometimes not." Oh, look...:::reaching down in the circular file::: I found your power. Why do you repeatedly throw it away?"

Good lord! I can't help but laugh at all the dumb things I've been saying. Though, it's not that funny. I blame everyone else for my actions alot! All this time I thought it was everyone else that was the problem, and that I was the normal one. Talk about living a lie.

"You choose to not be honest. Own it. You choose to be honest at times. Own that. You have a belief you are responsible for other people's beliefs...which is a lie you tell yourself...they are fragile, don't learn their lessons on their own, must be protected, helped...taken out on their 18th bday...and don't you feel darn grand when you choose to be generous, when honesty matters more."

Before all of this, I always felt the need to "defend" my wife's need to be open and honest and tell it how it is. I wasn't defending her, I was making excuses for her because i didn't think it was right either. Atleast not the way she went about it. Man... it's nice to see things for the way they really are. I'm not angry at myself for doing it though, because I feel like I can change it. Great feeling. :O)

"Your truth seems a scarce commodity."

No kidding. I wish I had been shown all of this sooner... and had been ready to digest it, and work w/ it.

" I'm having a really hard time accepting anything to do w/ the idea of her moving on."

Do you believe acceptance is approval?

Do you believe forgiveness is approval?

I believe they are three different things entirely. Accepting reality is focusing on staying in a just perspective.

You have no control whether your wife moves on or not.

I'm tiring of the repeating part.

Sorry. Your repeating it is helping though. Every time you say it, you present it w/ a spin on something else I've done. It helps me look at the issue from different angles. It'll take time and effort for me to truly get past this. I'm a smart guy, but sometimes a slow learner. I've been living the same life for roughly 27 years, just to varying degrees. I don't expect to just change over night. So, if you don't mind, bear w/ me and keep throwing these things at me. I'll try my hardest to catch on, and not just take the things you say for what I want them to be.

I see your point. Partially. Forgiveness. Approval. Acceptance. I kinda get it. Forgving someone means not passing judgement...? Approval means agreeing w/ an action...? Acceptance... means disagreeing w/ it, but coming to terms and moving on? Like... if a g/f of mine had cheated on me. If I didn't judge her for it (forgiveness). would have done it myself or encouraged it (approval), or wouldn't have done it myself, preferred her not to do it but came to terms w/ it... that will fill all three criteria? I should try a dictionary sometime. To me, words have always been just words, and it's the feelings behind them that matter most. Though, I suppose that to understand the feelings, it may acutally help to associate them w/ the words we use to describe them. and maybe vice versa.

"If a thought pops up, I put it on paper, even if it's not something I truly believe or is just passing."

Inferno...I was this way, too. My fatigue in repeating to you that which I don't see (maybe in the way I want it as I want it said) you comprehending or believing...is due to wrestling with myself. I remember this, the entrenchment, the fear, the automatic responses and making decisions from my feelings.

Got me into your situation. Right there. All that. Stop doing that and you'll get different results...that you can't know or work toward, make happen...that you accept. You act to your standards and accept reality."

I'm finding this especially difficult to do. I'm seeing that, w/out the automatic incorrect repsonses, I don't know what to say at times. I kind of just sit there, wondering what is supposed to come out of my mouth next. I'm having trouble thinking instead of reacting. I thought it was ok to feel instad of think... God gave me a brain, I need to start using it.

Not going to nag on you again. If I do not answer a question, I know that you'll know I've already answered it.

Have to leave it at that.

I feel exhausted, like you are fighting me. You are stating things that you don't believe, just what pours out so you can look at it. The problem is, you are doing this in answer to my questions, pouring it out when I asked for what you believed. Please don't waste my time.

Ouch. I'm really sorry. I guess my asking you to keep repeating things is like my saying that I'm going to continue to feel my way through things instead of thinking about it first. I need to print of the things we discuss here, and re-read them and think about them when I have spare time. Then I need to analyze what I've gotten out of each of those times and see if what I thought about them was me feeling my way through the situation, or thinking my way through it. Someone told me once that you can't help the way you feel. I agreed. You know who that was? My "clone". (Who was not my confidant, but another friend.) The girl that used to finish my thoughts. Cripes.

I ask you for your real beliefs...you believe you aren't trying to fix the world because you can't fix yourself. You repeatedly say you want to choose differently but don't. I hear you saying that you acknowledge this about yourself but don't want to be that way. What should you do if you want something and it has obstacles?

I respect you more than being where you spew. I encourage you to respect yourself more and give yourself less permissions to do damage and disrespect."

I guess I choose to fix the world because I don't choose to fix me, haven't seen the way I've been living my life and see in others what is in myself... man, I'm just going every which way but the one I say Iam. You don't know how bad I want to fix this now. This is going to take alot of focus, work and analysis. I'm looking forward to it. I just hope that I can save my marriage like you did.

"This is the definition of selfishness..you put your needs and wants ahead of her needs and wants. You define talking to her as a need you can't control and one only she must fill for you. This is selfish manifest as disrespect and entitlement..."

ARRRGGGHHHH!!! Is it ever going to end. <:O) I don't even ask her if we could talk, I just start talking at her. I feel like she should listen because I'm telling myself that she's the cause of my feelings and the troubles we are having. I want her to "right the wrong she is commiting against me". I want her to tell me I'm right and that what I want is what matters. I haven't cared about what she wants if it interferes w/ my "need" to get my family back, and if I did it was out of guilt for wanting it and not out of respect for her or myself.


"You're very cryptic in your writing, if that's the right word to use? :O)" You are the first person to ever say that. You believe I am cryptic. I hear that. I am explaining my beliefs and experiences the best I know how to do. I believe I'm repeating myself over and over again.

Cryptic isn't the right word. I'm having a hard time understanding some of the terms you use, and some of what you say looks complicated and complex from where I sit. Sometimes I feel like I need to see 1 + 1 =2, but you're presenting it to me in a square root format. Give it to me whatever way you'd like. :O) I don't want to discourage you from being you, or take anything away from what you have to say. :O)

"I didn't know my limits sometimes. Other times, I did and crossed them anyway. " This is a great sentence that wraps up what I keep hearing...tell me, tell me, no, I can't/won't am not capable...okay, that one fits, give me more, tell me, tell me...ahhh, too bad. None of those work for me.

Like taht for example. <:OD Are you saying that i summarized who i was being when i said that? That I was justifying not changing by saying that it wasn't w/in my limits? Sounds right to me.

Witty sarcasm? Sarcasm is abusive. An LB.

Yeah, I once made a girl at an old job cry by getting carried away. Uncool. I thought i was just being funny. yeah, i was being hilarious. (that was sarcasm). :O) Just wanted to throw that in for dramatic effect. >:OD

"I do for others, but only expect respect in return." What you do for others is your choice. You do not respect others so your expectation for it from others might lead you to disappointment. Unless you mean admiration for your generosity, which is not respect.

That didn't come out right. I was feeling my way through that sentence. I do for others because I enjoy it. It's like fixing computer problems for the women around the office. They don't know how to do it for themselves, so I'm happy to do it for them being it makes me feel good and I enjoy computers. I like doing nice things for people, even when they don't always appreciate it. I don't expect respect, I just hope that they'd return the favor if I need it. I don't care if they admire me for it. I do it because I want to do it, not because I want the attention or expect the same out of others that I expect in myself. I do notice, once in a while, that I'll do things not because I want to, but because I feel obligated. I have also seen where the girls have taken advantage of my knowledge and have expected me to fix their problems when it wasn't convenient or appropriate for me to do it and they were aware of it. I don't hold it against them. I realize that they did it out of convenience for themselves. I forgive them, accept it but don't approve...? Is that right? Sounds right to me... Maybe accepting it in all instances isn't the right thing to do either. I'm not respecting myself by letting people take advantage of me. Right?

We marry our opposites, but become enmeshed in our marriages; what you did to her, she does to you, tit for tat, bash for bash, touch for touch, love for love. Look for that pattern...and your expectation that what you did for her would be returned in kind. That isn't an act of love, but bartering.

Excellent point, though a bit obvious I would hope. Her actions and thoughts mimic alot of what i was going through. maybe I can help her like you are helping me? Only, w/out trying to force her into recovery... Though, if I'm not fully recovered myself, I could be doing her some injustices by hoping to guide her w/ a warped perspective.

You said you are relieved not feel the anger all the time and now want the fear to go...like you can eliminate your feelings, is that correct? One by one? All the ones you don't want? How reasonable is that?

What if you rid yourself of fear and become consumed by shame; constant, raining shame. Would that be better?

Would you rather have manageable feelings or only certain ones...God gave them all to you for a reason, key to being human.

Sounds like your belief is--get rid of whatever is in you that is bad and only be good.

Is that correct?

Yes. and I kind of knew I was doing it too. I thought it was wrong to just let go of these feelings, but didn't see the alternative. It was my acceptance of reacting through feeling that was stopping me from seeing that feelings are ok. I need to manage my feelings by analyzing them. Combine thoughts and feelings to come to a conclusion, and not just working w/ one or the other.


I don't know, maybe cryptic is the right word? Maybe it's not. I'm a tell it to me in plain english kind of guy. I think it;s because I've been attempting to feel my through what I'm being told and am only getting what I want out of it all. If what i want isn't there, then i get nothing. I seem to making an improvement there, and understood alot more of what you were telling me this time around. Though, some things you write can be "not to the point". I'm sure you do it for my benefit though... :O)

A quick summary of yesterday. We spent time together cleaning out the shed. She mentioned the OM several times, along w/ other thins taht would nomrally bother me. I just kept thinking that I needed to focus on what I'm doing and not on whether or not she is going to act on any of those ideas. I had a good day. We talked, she's been going back and forth between the still kicking you out comments, to making some that make me think she wants to woerk this out. Like the "we'll have to do this later"'s and stuff like that. She hugged me alot yesterday, and leaned for a few kisses on the cheek and didn't really get mad from what i saw. I said some things taht didn't do me any favors, like the not agreeing w/ the other guy and stuff. I slso managed to respond by telling her taht I hope things work out between us, and eliminated the OM from the conversation at times. We watched a movie last night together. I made comment (albiet a witty sarcastic one) about her not putting her legs on my lap anymore while we watch movies togehter. She gave me a litte kick. She awlways did think i was funny. Atleast i think so. At the end of the night, i stole a hug from her that she returned, told her I love her, that I';ve missed her lately and thanked her for spending time w/ me. Is any of that wrong? I haven't had time to analyze it yet?

talk to you tomorrow.

Oops I have to go and didn't get any work done. I'd better hurry up and get it finished. Yikes!

Wish me luck, tomorrow I start my new job as a demoted employee working an insurance I hate. my time here might be limited for a spell because of trainging issues. Hope you had a good weekeend.

Oh, and she even told me taht lately she's been wanting to tell me taht she still loves me a little... and did the finger thing. I don't what that means, if it's friendship love or if it's love love... if that's even a term :OD

I don't know where to start. Stabbing at counseling first.

Your mother is willing to pay for counseling...call the Harleys. Makes the most sense...direct and no interview required...their credo is here on the website. You act and make the appt...you already know not to ask if your wife wants to or not...her choice, not yours. You ask if the appt time is convenient. You have your fears and you sit with them...you don't act on or from them...usually in spite of them. Acknowledge you have them. Period. They can be content with that.

Please stop judging yourself. You judge within your posts about your posts. Judgment corrupts and distorts...it is not based in reality. Judgment is the power behind the control freak...who is based on fantasy and you can see why. Judgment feeds us lies we choose to believe. Real power begins with the choice not to judge. You exist. You are. You choose and not choose. Leave right or wrong out of it, especially for the sake of your marriage right now.

You don't judge OM better or worse than you because he's not real...the fantasy is the A and that makes it a scary opponent. This is huge complex stuff and I am thirsting for a one strand to hold onto in a lot of tangled cords.

Projection...we all do it. Teaching ourselves not to do it key to not messing up the information our feelings are giving us. Projection adds more. It is also a great tool, when you become aware of, to know yourself better. Doing it unconsciously is killer, though. Potent stuff. Use wisely.

Lemme try this again...did YOU expose to everyone?

"and I believe his family (atleast his brother) knows." Am I hearing correctly that word got around means that you exposed?

How do you choose your actions? From your feelings? A plan may not be your cure, Inferno...maybe the illusion you want in place to feel better immediately, but not necessarily to save your marriage. I'm here either way, but would like your truth.

Meeting her ENs would not include moving out. That's not an EN, you understand? That is your choice. She can't make you, force you (short of filing for legal seperation, depending on your state) to choose to move out. Plan A is about being true to yourself and to your spouse.

Here is why to choose your life based on feelings is crazymaking:

"Recently, I've taken to telling her that I don't agree w/ her seeing him, but it is her choice to make and if she has feelings for someone else then then i can't change that. I can see some things wrong w/ that. I see some control in there, plus a defeatist attitude on my part. A little bit of guilting her into pushing him away? I think what i should be saying is that I love her, that I'm working to better myself and am hoping that maybe she'll find her feelings for me again? That's practically saying the same thing when i think about it..."

You choose to say, "I love and accept who you are. You are making a choice to have an A. I am choosing to save my marriage by changing myself, one belief at a time, so that I can be a respectful, loving person, without judgment."

Very similar to your second sentence above...what makes it different, not at all the same, is your intent. If you intent remains to control and manipulate, then your choices may look the same, but be dependent on the results. You will read here where Plan A kicked people's butts...because their intent was to not understand and make better choices based on themselves, but on the result. This illustrates you really can't judge a book by its cover...intent matters greatly.

Accept the person, judge the actions. Her anger is hers...you don't know where it comes from but you are choosing from your reactive emotions to her anger, which is a contest no one wins. You cannot cause, control or cure her.

Repeat.

You cannot cause her to be angry, loving, faithful, kind...or control it out of her or cure her of them. Her choices. Yours are yours. That you are choosing to be reactive, create resentment to hold against her, like a fireblanket to save your hide is your own undoing. Not hers. If she chooses revenge to the actions you make to save your marriage...that is on her. Threats don't work in a respectful life. You don't make threats, not in your code. You respect revenge as her choice and choose not to give into threats. Now a threat from a boundary enforcement...it helps.

"I want her to not be angry." This is your truth. Tell me why? Anger means...disapproval, that you are doing or have done something wrong; means the opposite of love; means you are a mistake and should never have been born...what does anger mean to you...that will solve some of your fears, also. Define anger to yourself, and then tell me why her anger is something you don't want her to have. Being a pleaser, you know this isn't about her and her anger...it is about others' anger at you, a false power and constant conflict avoidance fodder. Get straight what anger really is and you'll go a long way to not reacting to others' anger and you will stop being angry with yourself.

"Good lord! I can't help but laugh at all the dumb things I've been saying." You are sensitive to the judgment of others, in part, because you judge so harshly. I respectfully disagree with you. You have not been saying dumb things. You have been honest with the whats and the hows that you do...I am struggling to get you to the necessary whys...it is difficult. You can't get there on image or fantasy. Is honest dumb? Or is it just what it is?

"All this time I thought it was everyone else that was the problem, and that I was the normal one. Talk about living a lie."

Do not bash your present understanding...reward it. Look at all those puddles of power you walked through, even threw about, that are yours. You're getting there. There is no blame.

Rinse. Repeat.

There is no blame...there is understanding. You get that you attempted to love yourself, protect yourself, by seeing others as the ones to blame...blame itself was something to shove away. Would you shove understanding away? Okay, maybe...you have attempted to shove it down your WW's throat. So you can be safe, understood, accepted and to get HER to stop hurting you.

Start with stop hurting yourself. We are made so that we cannot ask of others what we ourselves do...okay, we ask, but we add to our internal conflict. It is cumulative and it grows over everything...this is self-disrespect, like kudjo, doesn't stop until you cut the root out completely.

"I wasn't defending her, I was making excuses for her because i didn't think it was right either." Here is where my use of acceptance might appear cryptic. Acceptance is the belief that all humans are seperate and equal. Acceptance is knowing that we all have our own beliefs, thoughts and feelings seperate from one another. Accepting your WW as a person, just as she is, that is what I'm talking about. What you saw as open and honest from her...her telling you that you're the problem, that you make her angry, not a priority, last place, worthless...is abuse, not truth. Given that she owns her feelings and beliefs, you cannot be responsible for them.

Her telling her that when you choose not to talk to her for three days, she feels erased, is a truth with your influence. Your withdrawal and the whys matter...to you and your code. There's no control...and she may fear abandonment, feel punished by your withdrawal, if you don't consciously choose to act with the information you have and are not giving her.

Her part is to find out why she feels punished...your part is to dig and see if you are withdrawing from her to punish or deprive, conflict avoiding or hiding. See the difference in meeting ENs? You both sounds like conversation (which is attention and a desire for intimacy). Listening and repeating is what I'd be doing 24/7 right now...handing back her words to her, from what you really hear, is two-handed information. She feels heard and you know you're not giving an extra kick to yourself through your filter, which may distort her words to inflict more pain on you.

When you make excuses for others, you are not treating them as equals, but inferiors. They know it but may not know they now it.

Know your intent...later, when you've got the basics really down, you will understand better reasons for choices, but for now, I would stick to no excuses for others. Abject respect. Know that they know. May be worlds away from what you believe...know it anyway.

Do not choose to believe your others' over yourself. Do not add self-betrayal to the external kind. Doubles the pain. You've been doing this your whole life...it is a lot of pain added into your current reality.

"Your repeating it is helping though." Thank you very much for that. Repetition isn't just with you...all over the boards...felt like maybe I was a convert fanatic and doing more damage than good. Needed very much to hear that repeating is necessary for the very reason you stated...same thing in a different circumstance gets us there. We couldn't get all this before...we did the best we knew then...now, knowing better, we do better. Great gift you gave yourself about your anger.

Forgiveness is what you give yourself...accepting that others are as human as you are. It does not mean you approve of their actions (that's judgment); you do understand that they chose those actions. You forgive yourself for believing lies, expecting fidelity, creating resentments to benefit you, for betraying reality and believing you could cause, control or cure another person; you forgive yourself for being wishful and causing yourself pain; you forgive yourself for a lot of things as your part in betrayal...you forgive others when they own what they did, know why they did it, and why they will choose differently in the future. You don't control it, can't force it, and will crave it when you, yourself, demand it.

Forgiving yourself is accepting you, your choices, reactions, and pain. Accepting this is an essential part of the human experience...stuff happens. Your part is in choosing after stuff happens. And not allowing yourself to wish it differently (self-betrayal).

Approval is a judgment. From others and to yourself. I got rid of that as part of judgment. Right, wrong, blame, victim, monster...all judgments. Better, worse, best are smaller judgement. Here were my choices today. I'm glad I know what they were...I feel good about four of them, the other seven I will choose differently tomorrow.

Acceptance.

When you choose actions that do damage, you recognize the damage, own it, understand it, and the do amends. You cannot undo, but you can amend. This is self-redemption. Amends are determined by the person you injured...if their trust was hit, you be transparent to rebuild trust. If you disrespected or defined them, you stop, make it your highest priority to eliminate that to everyone and yourself. You will build trust and respect in your self at the same time. Beautiful system of balance. Even injuries to others are not aberrations...but essential. Balance.

Drop all "what ifs" and "if onlys" out of your vocabulary and your mind. It helps.

Pack up the supposed tos, shoulds, could haves, would haves and ought tos to be airmailed to Siberia with them.

Try this: Each day, say, "I am." That's it. "I am." Say it when you wake up, look left, sit down, get up...say it out loud, even under your breath. "I am." You are. First fact of reality. Not easy. You've been living under this belief:

If I please others, I live.
If I am good, I am loved.
If I am loved, I exist.
If I exist, I can be killed.

Junk stuff like that. You are. Period. No more than that. You are a human being not a human doing. I say this to reinforce all the judgment constraints you have in your head...should say/do, supposed to say/do...all camoflauge you from your own thoughts, feelings and beliefs. Like covering up all your possessions with sheets so they don't get dust on them. They still exist...they just can't give you real information anymore that way.

You were made perfectly human...not perfect. If you were perfect, you would have no journey. Rejoice in the journey. You will not be judged on your journey, or the end result. You will be learned.

"You can't help the way you feel." She was only mostly right (like mostly dead from Princess Bride)...You create your feelings through your belief...lots of choice there. However, you feel what you feel. Feelings are information about your beliefs in reaction to reality. You own your feelings. Are you fearful? Is it reasonable? It is when you are hanging off a 110-story building with only a cable between you and death, correct? How do those guys get over that? They do it again and again and know that yes, the fear is real, but the reality isn't. At least, they know that if they are still alive. Same with feelings...there are reasonable and unreasonable ones. You have reasonable and unreasonable beliefs. Makes sense, huh? Need I say....balance?

Your reality is that by lying about what you own, you get lying feelings. Human. When you stop choosing to lie, you will get honest feelings. So, to accept that you can't help what you feel is like a half-truth, correct? You're gonna feel...God's pathway of truth...only, it is subjected to garbage in/garbage out, correct?

Truth can be spoken by those who do evil. Still makes it truth. This is one of them. Your decision to no longer MAKE your decisions from feelings is healthy, given where they come from.

When you forget and react...think of that phrase, "You gonna put that in your mouth? You don't know where it's been!" Like saying, you don't know where it came from...which belief generated it. Anger has two...either comes from your boundaries or your expectations. Either way, you created it, correct? If you feel no one should ever be rude to anyone...your boundary...you will feel anger in the presence of rudeness, even though it isn't directed at you, and relieved it wasn't. Conflicting? You bet. However, your boundary was extended too far...you are judging others by the standard you hold for yourself.

Gonna be conflicting results inside of you. Not your boundary to enforce for others (respect); not enforcing it will create anger (at yourself, but feels like at the offending party for crossing your boundary and giving you the need to enforce) and relief...sweet relief...because you can't enforce a boundary for others, strangers...or can you? You can interject your own truth, "I found that rude and inappropriate, what you said to him. I feel fear, anger and relief." Done. That's a boundary enforcement.

However, we hear what we expect...if you've judged a person aggressive, you will see aggression, even when it isn't there. What might be rude to you (tone, gesture, pace) might not be to another. I let that boundary go...until I get my own, around me, set better.

What you truly believe matters. I will accept and respect it. This I will not "If a thought pops up, I put it on paper, even if it's not something I truly believe or is just passing." Please choose more carefully, and there is latitude, to indicate what is a real belief and what is not. What is an old (even thirty-seconds-ago belief) and what you are replacing that belief with. I fear you yanking my chain. I'm gullible. I like that. I will treat all you have to say as truth. I choose to. If you lie, that is about you, not me. I would rather be in on your truth and not your self-deceit.

"I just start talking at her. I feel like she should listen because I'm telling myself that she's the cause of my feelings and the troubles we are having." I hear your ARRGGGHH very well. That was my onomonopeia of choice. You'll get there, have faith. That you just start talking to her is beneficial for my urging you to use "I feel" and "I believe" statements randomly and often. Depending on her listening, validating, acknowledging...well, that part has to go. I want you to state your true thoughts and feelings in simple statements. One or two at a time.

In example: "Good morning. I am thinking about why I feel safe when you carry my emotions, thoughts and beliefs. Are we out of milk?"

When she speaks, you listen and repeat. No I statements. "I hear you found a CD you thought I'd be interested in." "I hear you believe your OM has real feelings for you and you aren't sure you have them for him."

"I hear you will choose to be vengeful if I expose your affair to his parents."

Only after she makes her statements. Very important part...you are repeating her beliefs and opinions, not THE truth. Nothing to argue. "You make me so made when you repeat me!" "I hear you feel anger when I repeat what you've said."

"Yes! Stop doing it."

"I accept you want me to stop doing this. I believe you are uncomfortable and do not trust me to not be doing this as a tactic or manipulation. I am doing it so I hear you and understand what you believe."

"I'm telling myself that she's the cause of my feelings and the troubles we are having. I want her to "right the wrong she is commiting against me". I respect that you know the reality...you can only right the wrong you are committing against yourself, if you choose to believe that you cannot be (human limitation) the cause, control or cure of another person on this earth.

You are showing yourself truth here, and that's what I missed. You are owning what you feel, how you choose to react to those feelings and your current beliefs. I think you understand Dr. Phil's question better, "How's that working for ya?" No disrespect. When we want desperately to change reality, we can only look to ourselves and our choices, not the results. You keep looking at the results and the question sounds rude, rather than empowering.

The intent behind it is respectful, honest and without manipulation. If you put results-based dependent in there, then you will not be true, respectful or honest. You will be manipulative.

Back to the respect for respect...and what sounds like you saying no, you don't expect respect for your pleasing nature? You do because you can? You do because you choose? You do because you like the admiration and appreciation you have within yourself for the act?

I think you know I'll say this annoying statement "You can't be taken advantage of." Right? You had boundaries with helping others (better than saying "women") with their computer problems...wasn't entirely your job to do so...you did it to help them, the company (via productivity) and because you had the ability to do so. You did it when it was convenient, didn't get in the way of your regular duties, and if it did, when they put their jobs before yours, you did feel taken advantage of...because you didn't say your truth. "I respect you and know you will solve this issues. I am putting my job first, as are you."

"maybe I can help her like you are helping me?" Rule #1...never attempt to educate a WS. It is disrespectful and unproductive. You can't hand your WW anything to find her way out of the dark...like giving her a compass without a light. You have to be the light. Period. She finds her own way, choosing to see your light or not. You be the light anyway.

Get this into your root belief system. Breaks your control freakish nature entirely. If you have to be the thing...well, then others don't, do they? No more external manipulation...just internal accountability. That is a stellar Plan A. Read what you can on the forum from ark^^ because you are educating yourself and she can show you how to be a lighthouse.

Know that your desire to educate can be overwhelming. Was for me and countless others...if their WS's would only come here! That overwhelming desire is coming from a belief you have that people can be fixed if they know more. That is an unreasonable belief. People choose what is to be fixed in them and then do it for them. Not for situations or others. The truth (reality) will set you free, Inferno...still will be your truth, your chosen beliefs, not THE truth. Respect others.

I'm only writing these volumes to you from my respect that you asked. You desired. I questioned if you wanted answers or great tactics. Your choice. I do not search out the heathen and attempt to convert them. I'm right here. Can be found and led to...my part is being here.

"I need to manage my feelings by analyzing them." Semantics are important to me because words are my beliefs. I believe you know that, so I am repeating something, rephrasing you, for my truth. "I need to analyze the information that my feelings are and accept that they are accurate with my beliefs." I recoil from "manage" because it is so close to manipulation, damage control, altering reality to me. I think you're right on. Your analytical nature has been outward, symbolizing a quest for truth, and abetting your run from it.

Welcome home.

Good on the update...you decide your results from yesterday. Plan A involves doing things together, showing they are priority, which can for you be mutually accomplishing something, sharing a movie, dancing, archery, coffee shops, massages...the list is vast. Under Reacreational Companionship inventory. Worth looking over.

Remember your choice in defining your results--you give hugs or you steal them...you state you miss having her legs on your lap and what they symbolize...that you show your desire for intimacy by stating your thoughts and feelings and let go hers...then you'll have room to hear her own.

Your choice. All of them. Analyze yourself and you have your hands full. Analyze/guess/mindread/assume hers and you have pure distraction.

Fantasy.

LA

Mornin'.

I need to get on the ball w/ that. I'm working on it. I probably won't use the Harvey's... I would like to use someone local so that my wife can step in at any moment. I'm not sure how I'd go about counseling w/ the Harvey's anyway?

I have very bad news. Very, very bad news. I caved yesterday in a moment of weakness. I was feeling really good about this weekend, especially after I left here having read your last response. Feeling being the key word. I know it's ok to have feelings, but mine just keep getting in the way. I know I can't expect to change overnight, and I'm still adhereing to everything we've discussed here. I went home, my W was folding laundry when I got there and our daughter was out w/ my Mom at church. I went back to the bedroom to say good morning to my W, and she was walking around the house all disheveled after having just woke up, wearing a tight pair of jeans and a sweater w/ no brazier. I took one look at her and was overcome w/ this sense of connection, love, amazement, happiness... I've rarely been that overcome w/ good emotion in my entire life. It was like standing at the alter all over again. All I could think was "This is the woman I want to spend the rest of my life w/." There was no lust or any inappropriate feelings. I just felt more connected to her than I've felt in years. Then I did exactly what I shouldn't have done. I stayed in the room.

We started talking, I got carried away and hugged her. It was the best hug I'd ever had. I couldn't stop hugging her.

I'm a very "touchy, feely" person, though I appreciate emotional connections just as much. That's one thing that's different between me and my wife. She is not "touchy feely", atleast not to the degree that I am. I like to feel emotionally and physically connected to her all the time. She's like air to me sometimes. I think she's that amazing...

Anyway, I was hugging her, and she got tired of it and tried to get back to folding laundry. I couldn't let go... I hadn't felt that good in months, maybe even years. I got bold and told her I wanted to hug her, kiss her, make love to her and just be w/ her forever. She started getting aggitated, and finally shooed me off. I started talking to her, but she had already gotten irritated w/ me. I asked her if her feelings for me had changed at all, she said no that she still didn't feel the love for me that she used to. She had told me the other day that she had been wanting to tell me that she loved me a little. I asked her to what degree... Things started crapping out here... She said that she saw us as friends right now and that she appreciated everything I had done for her over the last ten years. I told her that noone knows her like I do, and that I'll always love her. She said something about her friend Eric (that has always had feelings for her) and the OM knowing her too. She said that she jokingly asked the OM who he thought she was the other day, and he described her exactly. She said that what he told her was exactly what any of her closest friends could have told her. I told her that they don't know her like I do, and that the OM had told her that if he needed to move on he would. She told me that she tried to get rid of him, and he wouldn't go. She said he told her that he couldn't because he couldn't go back to the way his life was before he met her. I told her that I couldn't either. She said that we are all idiots because there really isn't anything specical about her. I told her that I think she is amazing. She went back to folding laundry, and I asked her for one more hug and promised to leave her alone after that. She told me I was being selfish, and I started crying. I couldn't help it. I just felt so lonely and rejected.

My Mom came to drop our daughter off shortly after. She saw that I had been crying and asked me to talk. I went in our daughter's room and talked to her for a little while. Then, my Mom got it in her head to go talk to my wife. They talked, I listened for a bit then walked away when my Mom started discussing the OM. At this point, my W was already annoyed and this served to help it along that much more. My Mom left after telling my W that she still wanted us to try counseling and said she would call and ask a question my W had about the process.

My W was pretty annoyed by then. She told me that if everyone doesn't stop making this about the OM, instead of my having lied about things for a couple months, then she would make it about the OM and give them something to think about. She got angry about my Mom calling the counselors, said that she was wasting her money anyway. I told her I was sorry to have annoyed her and that i would leave her alone. She said taht she was done, and that we'd solve the issue right there. She said she is not going to talk about the situation w/ me anymore and left it at that. I felt bad the rest of the day. We had a perfectly good Saturday, but that seems to have been defeated by yesterday.

Later last night while she was at work, she called to say my sister stopped in for movies and knew everything that had happened. She said she wanted to warn me about telling my family anything that I didn't want to get out and taht she had told me so. I told her that I'll be careful about what i say, so that my family isn't harrassing her or the OM. She said "Oh, he's working tonight".

That made my day.

I told her that it didn't matter, told her i love her and she hung up to take another call. When she got home after work, I asked her how her night was. She told me, then we got talking and I asked her a few questions about where things stood... her first response was that she wasn't talking to me about things anymore. I was trying to get a feel for where I should go from there and she kept talking. I told her that everyone but my Mom keeps telling me to get out of the house. She asked me why I haven't listened... sarcastically. I told her that I wanted to try to work this out w/out having to leave. She said something about taking advantage of me, and how she didn't think she was doing it anyway though. I told her I didn't see it, that it was my choice to help her out w/ things there, like cleaning the shed. She said she could do it herself. I told her that I like spending time w/ her and want to help. She said never mind, that she'd do everything w/out me from now on. I told her that my intentions weren't to go from having a good Saturday to not talking or spending time together. She said "ok. I'm going to sleep now." and taht was all she wrote. I told her good night, she said the same. i told her that I love her and missed her while she was working, and thanked her for the time on Saturday again. I also wrote her an apologetic love note for her to read when she got home from work before this conversation. I write her notes often now.

This morning well... stunk. She didn't talk to me much, didn't put any effort into getting a kiss on the cheek when I got here, didn't wear either of the really nice neckalces I bought her that she's been sporting and gave me a pathetic half wave when she pulled away. I called her and left her a message before she got back home. Told her I was sorry, and didn't want her to think that this was going to be a pattern if we tried to work things out. I then called her a little bit later and talked to her about general stuff for a few minutes. Told her that I'd like it if she called this afternoon so I could tell her how the new job was going. We finished talking, I told her I love her and she went back to bed.

Here's my question. Seems I have two feelings in regards to her that I can't seem to find a way to circumvent when the need arises. Love and lonliness. How do I deal w/ those? I respect her, love her, cherish her... but don't know how to put those feelings aside when I need to. I'm starting to think I need medication... brother.

I took one step forward Saturday, but two steps back Sunday.

Sorry. I'm refocused, but she has to work alot of nights this week so my time w/ her is limited. This whole deal w/ her working nights was a strain on me to begin w/. She offered to switch, but not before I had already begun to spiral. She offered alot of things that I wish I would have taken. I was in the same position she's in now though. Angry, depressed and unwilling to comprimise or try to work on our relationship. I could have saved our marriage then, but instead did just the opposite. That kills me sometimes.

That's one thing that worries me too. I know how she feels. I felt the same way. Didn't care anymore, wanted the freedom to run away from it all... couldn't deal and felt totally overwhelmed. The only difference is, I treated her like crap on and off over the last ten years while she put me on a pedestal. She told me recently that she'll miss me when I go, but she thinks she's strong enough to move on.

She keeps telling me on her own that she knows she should get rid of the OM, and that he's not better than me (though she "knows" he wouldn't get violent").

Back to square one?