Good to know your schedule...thanks.

"Yeah, I just want to make sure I get this all right. I really want to save my marriage. What do you think of the phone calls? I'm not optimistic. Got any pointers."

Do you want me to manipulate your emotions or lead you to getting your own information from them?

I'm willing to do one, not the other.

Obviously the latter. :O)


In your quote, I hear..."Yeah, yeah, yeah...but what about her..." That's my filter. I hear it a lot in your responses. How close to your truth is it?

Sort of close I guess. Sometimes it's "Yeah, yeah, yeah... but what about her." Other times it's "Ok, I'm pretty sure I'm getting what I need to get for me out of this, and if not I'll ask or it will be apparent. Now, what about her? Do you have any insight into what she is thinking? I'm unable to tell where things stand w/ anything right at this very moment because my mind is all over the place." That sounds about "right"... as in accurate. Not necessarily "right" as in me making my own choices.


I will indulge you...why are you saying you love her, miss her, etc. within minutes of each other?

I love her. I get to thinking about her when I say it, and our past life togther. Then I think about how I don't have that right now and want to get our marriage back on track. Is this what you're looking for?


"I learn something new every day. I also do something realted to old habits every day. I'm hoping that at some point the former will outweigh the latter." You want to live your life on a roll of the dice, your hope? Or do you want to be powerful, "I choose to do something each day that is new for me. Then I choose to do something from old habit. I do two new to one old each day. When I do old, I stay aware of it, know why I do it and that I give myself permission for it."

Gotcha. I'm pretty sure. I keep making statements that elude to me not having control over my choices. I also keep inadvertantly bashing myself for choices I've made. I'll get it through my head eventually.

W went and did laundry last night (don't have washer dryer in restored house yet) and some other things. She came home in between errands. I was out filling a kerosene heater for a quick outdoor project in the shed. She comes over and says "I went and got movies. I had to rent one on your 'favorite person's' account". I said "oh, so he was there?" (should have repeated?) She said "No, I just had someone take care of it for me because we do stuff like that all the time." I told her I thought they only did that when the individual was there. A few minutes later outof nowhere she said. "You suck." I wanted really bad to give her the "sarcasm is abuse line", but I broke down and said " No, I don't." She said "Yeah, you do." I didn't repsond. She said something about my OW (the confidant) not thinking I suck, and how she probably still tells me she wants to do perverted things to me. I said to her "You think I still have contact w/ her?" She said "It doesn't matter." I told her "I haven't had any contact w/ her since the last call on the phone bill". She reapeated herself. I told her I love her in the nicest voice possible. She said "whatever. " got angry and left.

She came back later, and I had been talking on the phone to my brother. She comes in the house, uses that woman's intuition of hers and says " Who were you talking to?" I told her it was my brother. She said "Yeah right." I said, "yeah, Garrett called and your father called before him." and I left it at that. We watched Memoirs of a Geisha (spelling) after that and went to bed. I couldn't sleep all night for whatever reason. I sat up in bed and fiddled w/ my Discman for a minute, she woke up got aggitated and went to sleep on the floor. I got restless and got out all of her old love letters from High School she had written me. Let me tell you. I read them about a month back, and wished I had read them back when this started to put things into perspective. I read them now, and I see all the times she berated me, was going back and forth between the OM and myself, was trying to control me in subtle ways, etc.... She kept saying that she didn't know why she was writing things, kept asking me if normal things she said were ok, mentioned marriage and kids alot, didn't understand why she thought or felt certain ways, and repeatedly said she was afraid of our relationship for reasons that never were explained... and I know it wasn't because of anything I did. She was all over the place... and I remember telling her whatever I thought she wanted to hear all the time. I loved her, and still do. I thought she was the most beautiful person I'd ever seen when I first laid eyes on her. Still do. It's what's been going on in that head of hers all this time that's got me wondering? I don't know. I love her. She just seems all over the place.


And no, I won't stop nagging you about it. Don't even ask. :::: You asked for repetition, didn't you?

I wouldn't dream of asking you to stop. :O) I didn't imply that I wanted you to, did I?

"Right now, she makes me feel like I can't be myself. I mean the real me." Now, you tell me what is wrong with this statement, please. I know you know.

She doesn't control me. My emotions, etc... My own choices. I actually thought about all that last night after I left in reagrds to alot of things i had said at the end of the day.


Where is the benefit in you not choosing your life? There must be a payoff for you to continually shove your emotions and beliefs onto your WW. Help me out. Show me your payoff.

There's not. I just keep falling in and out of old habits and patterns. I'm getting better. Rome wasn't built in a day. :O)

Could it possibly be this? "Good. I really want to improve. Each day we talk, the better about me I feel. Though, after each day I feel a little less better about my W. That's starting to present itself in a bigger way right now. I think those calls had something to do w/ that."


You have a belief that you are only lovable, whole, complete if WW loves you (believes in, accepts and respects you)...so if you begin to love yourself, you violate this balance...something has to be given up...like your WW. Could that be close as to why it feels like a trade off happening?

Meh. Not all of it. At first when I read this I thought so, then I thought that's only part of it. Part of my logic was, I want to love me and be me, for me. If she doesn't want the same for me she can go jump off a cliff. I gave this alot of thought on the way home last night. I was thinking w/ emotions yesterday around the time I was getting ready to leave. The crazy part is, it looks like I'm making sound statements when I make them. Then, when I look back on them, I see exactly what I was doing when I made them. I'm not exactly sure how I manage that. Swinging back and forth like that. I put my own spin on things w/out realizing it...

Here I'm going to help you out with your belief breakdown (thank you very much for focusing and doing this). Your beliefs aren't about one person. We don't work that way. We judge that way, but our beliefs don't.

"I believe that she is taking away my life."
You believe others can take away your life.

"My marriage of ten years, my daughter."
You believe your life consists of what means most to you...your marriage and your daughter.

"She's making me pay for the mistakes I've made over the years."
You believe people will make you pay for your mistakes.
Mistakes must be paid for.

"Only, she's charging me more than what I owe and more than I can afford."
People will punish you unreasonably.
People are not fair or just.
People will never let you forget you made a mistake.
You are people.
You will punish yourself unreasonably for your mistakes.
You will never atone for your mistakes.

"She wasn't perfexct either, but I don't hold it against her."
This is a judgment and I suspect, an untruth. Sounds good, though...like something a good person would say.

"She doesn't want this to work, is looking for reasons why it won't and won't look at the reasons why it has for this long and still can."
This is a perception, not a belief. Perceptions are like judgments waiting to happen, in your mind. Once you really get the respect belief into your whole body, perceptions will be more toward objective, less reactive and not have judgments.

"She only cares about herself right now, but not the real her, only the fantasy her."
This is just one huge mother of a DJ. No belief at all.

"She is trying to conrol me, make me suffer just because I am there and she has the opportunity to do it before i go, and not because she wants me to be."
Another muther DJ. Where is the benefit in choosing to perceive her this way? She cannot control you, make you suffer, so the try is a lie. You negate her suffering and pain by telling yourself this is truth.

Wow. Yeah, you can clearly see what kind of mood I was in yesterday afternoon. I didn't even see it at the time. I don't even know how to respond to that. I need to make a cheat sheet or something showing me things that I should be catching myself doing. I actually go back and proofread these posts for blatant structural inaccuracies before posting them, and still didn't catch any of that. Repetition... Practice. I need alot of practice.


Is the hidden belief...
People can control other people.
They can make them suffer, be angry, happy, peaceful.
People use control to harm others and protect themselves.
People are evil.

Yeah. The control freak in me just doesn't want to seem to die. I still see where I'm making progress, but those habits just keep coming out. I know I can't be controlled, and that I can't do it to anyone else.

"I believe I deserve my family as does our DD, but she doesn't feel that I do and doesn't care at all about how our DD feels."
You believe people deserve family.
You believe children deserve married parents.
You believe your WW is evil and calloused.


I believe I want my daughter to be happy in life.
Sometimes, I really do believe my WW is evil and calloused. >:OP That was inappropriate.

Really, what it boils down to is that I'm judging her because I'm making choices based on the belief that she can control me, or based on her judgment of me, or my judgment of myself. Or I am looking to the future based on her actions and words. None of which can be verified as true, or unretractable at a later time or date.

"Or does, but thinks that she'll compensate for that loss."

Now I'm suddenly lost on what is a belief (universal) and what is a judgment. I'll let you figure it out. You're good at that.

I'm good at that? Are you sure you're talking to the right person? <:O) Also inappropriate. It seems as though I am judging her based on things she has said to me previously? Not seeing the truth that there may be no truth to what she says.


If these are all beliefs...why are you choosing them? Why are you stabbing yourself with them? How do you profit?

I'm definitely not profiting. I'm passing my judgments off as beliefs. This is why I say I can't read people. Maybe that's my problem. That I'm even trying to read people. Does this fit into the whole "filters" deal? My filters are skewed. Totally out of whack. So... is it safe to assume that until I actually get myself to where I need to be, my filters are going to stay this way to an extent?


Could this possibly how you are choosing to believe to stop loving your WW? To tear her down into monstrous pieces to prove you shouldn't love her, anyway? If so, I can see where you're in conflict with believing you want to save your marriage.

I just want to be me. Problem is I'm still judging myself based on the opinions of others. I think I'm improving, she thinks "I suck". I'm judging me, and she is judging me so I'm judging her. Cheat. Sheet. Maybe I just need some time away to clear my mind?

Ask yourself and give yourself permission for abject honesty...do you want to be out of pain and into happiness right this minute, or do you want to have decades in a great marriage? Define what you want and if you're willing to do all the Herculean have-tos to get it.

I've held on this long. I don't plan to just throw in the towel for a quick fix of happiness. I know what my goal is. I want to be me, in a strong marriage (preferably w/ wife and daugther). Some of those Herculean have-tos are going to be a problem. I get sick to my stomach just thinking about some of them. I have some enormously strong feelings in regards to some of them. It's that whole inner struggle thing...

If you choose to believe as you do, DJs and all, then you will be a BS who two years from now implodes with anger over her past actions and will break your marriage to pieces because you did that to her before you saved it.

Do or do not. There is no 'try'. I'm choosing not to take complete control. I just FEEL like I'm going to go into cardiac arrest if I have to follow through w/ some of the necessary actions.


Your choice. Speaking of which:

"I tend to want out of a relationship what i put into it. If I don't get that, I tend to start to withdraw. I like having my mate constantly by my side, but taht doesn't mean that I have to be interacting w/ them when they are there the whole time. it's just nice to know they are there sometimes. I don't know..."

Would you mind re-writing that so you own your stuff?

The "I don't know" was implying that I was unsure if I had left anything out. :O)

"I choose to want out of a relationship what I put into it. If I don't get that, I choose to withdraw. I choose to almost constantly have my mate by my side, but don't always choose to interact w/ them when they are."

Is that what you were looking for?

That helps tremendously with the "I don't know."

"I just wanted someone to relate to." Relate to or control?
No bashing, I want to know your truth, even if it is yucky right now to you.

What I really want is a relationship w/out control, w/out judgement. I want to be me. Nothing more, nothing less. Allowing equality for myself and the person I'm in the relationship w/. Could that not be considered "relating to one another"?

"I don't fear intimimacy. I embrace it." What does intimacy mean to you? Tell all about your actions in your life, proud and not so proud of? Or your beliefs, thoughts and feelings? This is part of my question: "Sharing information they would rather have not known."


Intimacy. Openly sharing thoughts and feelings. Being completely exposed to another individual physically or mentally/emotionally.

I'm proud of myself for letting my daughter be herself sometimes, getting crazy, jump roping in the house, expressing herself in ways that I can't always understand, wanting to hug me all the time regardless of my mood.

I'm not proud of myself for not letting her be herself sometimes, not letting her be crazy and telling her to calm down, or telling her she's not allowed to do things like jump rope in the house just because it is irritating me, or expressing herself in ways I can't understand and getting on her case about saying and doing things w/out explaining myself or not even having a valid reason, or pushing her away when I'm tired or in a bad mood and not being nice about it or giving her a reason.

The things I'm proud of were choices I've made regardless of feelings because I want her to be able to make her own choices.

The things I'm not proud of seem to be reactions to things that conflicted w/ my feelings at the time.


I've always been back and forth between both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between. One minute I'm rational, the next minute I'm off the wall. It's like my fear of the dark. One night, I can go out to the shed when it's pitch black for firewood and not even care. The next night, for apparently no reason at all, I'm totally freaked out and literally run to and from the shed because I feel like something is going to get me. I know there's most likely nothing out there. Yet, I'm back and forth. Sometimes I can turn that feeling off, other times I feel like I've lost all control.

Things I'm proud of. Driving all the way to Florida and keeping a positive attitude while WW rested since she doesn't travel well.


Things I'm not proud of. Driving all the way back from Florida and p*ssing and moaning and taking it out on my WW
because I kept getting lost in PA and didn't want to come back here.


"Someone who would accept me for me and not expect me to be anyless than who i really am. Apparently I haven't found that yet." Would you try this on? Apparently, I haven't been that yet.

The shoe fits...

"I just want someone who I can be open w/ w/out being judged. I'm not sure my W can give that to me?"

This depends on you. Only you.

How does her judging me depend on me? or am I not seeing something? maybe that it's my choice to be w/ her if she continues to judge me? You've got me stumped.

"I've spent 10 whole years not being me. I'm not wasting any more time. time to fully enjoy my life. :O)"

You've spent nearly three decades not being you. You had an alcoholic father and a codependent mother. You began very early not being you. That's okay. It is the journey back to ourselves that makes the trip worth it. You're not alone. I'm promoting higher truth here, not bashing or condemning.

Yeah. There are those habits rising up again. You and I just had a discussion where I openly admitted that I've been this way since early on. I don't understand how I can go from one end of the spectrum to the other all the time? My buddy Walter said to me the other day, "My W and I argue occasionally, and I never get anywhere w/ her. I want her to apologize when we are done, but she never does. So, I just don't worry about it. I've already lived a third of my life, and am not going to spend the other two thirds being unhappy."

He's judging her. Saying it's her fault he doesn't win the arguments, and wants her to say she's sorry for not letting him control her and for her controlling him. He then dismisses her until the next argument where they lather, rinse and repeat. Is that right?

"I love her for who she is." No, Inf...you don't. You can and will, when you know how to. I believe in you.

I feel like I do. I just don't understand her sometimes and want to. I know that acceptance and understanding don't go hnd in hand. When I sit down, and truly just clear my mind of all the things that have/are/will happen and just take a look at her... I really love her and accept her for who she truly is. I don't care that she tries to be controlling, is conflicted inside and has thoughts and feelings that don't coincide w/ mine that are reflected in her actions. I don't judge her. It's when I'm trying to interact w/ her, and we start to clash that I start judging and trying to control her. Maybe my concept of acceptance is skewed? or maybe i accept he, but not completely? I want to though. I don't want her to try and control me though. I guess I need to come to a full realization that she can't. If I did that, it wouldn't matter if she tried to or not.

"I think that part of my problem is that I've forgiven myself for past events, and am tired of her dragging this out."

Forgiveness doesn't work that way, Inf. You want her to be like you and she isn't. She has all the capabilities, but not your thoughts, beliefs and feelings right now. You are tired of her dragging it out because you choose to see it that way. She is being who she is and choosing her actions, not dragging anything out.

Yeah. I see where I am still trying to control and or judge her left and right. I need to find a surefire way to stop doing that. I want her to have my same beliefs and feelings because then our marriage will/could work.

"It feels to me like she is trying to run me into the ground before tossing me out to the curb." She is actively showing you rejection...her naughty side you liked...until now. You watched her actively reject others and didn't choose to believe that she would do it to you. Rather, that you could keep her from doing it to you.

That's not what I meant by naughty side. It's when I see mishief in their eyes that I find myself attracted to females. Like their eyes are telling me that "I'm in for a ride", that they have self confidence and are "feeling pretty sexy, and even a little bit dirty" that kind of mischief. Eyes are a big thing for me. I can read eyes, but not much else.

I don't always agree w/ her choice of people to reject, or accept. I accept it though. Her friends and enemies are her own, as should be mine.

"Hmmm... I don't know. Is this common? Like I said, I love her. I'll keep working on me. I want this to work. I'm just ready for a change maybe?" You are dying for a change, Inf. In you. Not her. Please know the difference. If your focus remains, as it has and is again in your posts, on her, you won't get any necessary changes. You will have to start over again, learning this lesson again and again, bear all the pain, sorrow and confusion each time.

That's the one thing I did get straight. I'm waiting for the change in me. I'm dying to get past all of this. It alays somehow comes back to her though. My problem is I keep trying to relate fixing me to fixing my marriage, then relating my marriage getting fixed to her actions and words, and then relating her actions and words to the idea that I'm trying to fix me. It's like the story of the Phoenix. I keep being reborn, only to die again. Seems like the only way to get out of it is to truly stop caring about how everyone else but myself feels, stop caring about whether or not the marriage works, and just focus on me and nothing else.

Your choice.

"Looking forward to your next post. :O)"

You REALLY have to work on this self-punishment thing.

Yeah. It's out of control.

I honestly don't see where being in that house w/ her is doing me any good. Too many memories, too many distractions. I keep losing sight of my goal.

*edit* Let me rephrase that. I can see where still being in the house w/ her is distracting me. I keep losing sight of what it is I should be doing. I didn't mean to say that being there is not doing me any good.


What should I do? <:O) I'm torn.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

I lost my post to you. I'm in mourning.

Oh, well.

??? No Comprende?

When you rewrote the paragraph changing it to where you make your choices (which was really well done, btw), how did you feel?

Awkward. I'm not sure that's the repsonse you were looking for? I actually had to rewrite it once. The first go around was terrible. I finished the entire post, then went back through and really thought about what I wrote. I had to change things in almost every single reply because I was being judgemental and controlling through the whole thing. I'm not sure I completely got rid of all that garbage, but i tried. When I finished the changes, and reread the whole thing, I felt a whole heck of alot better about what I wrote, and about me. :O)

I'm having a bad day. by choice. :O) Before I left this morning, my W said that she didn't see things going well. Then when I told her I love her and would miss her today, she just got "snotty". She said she's sick of my tantrums... Apparently she doesn't appreciate that I can't sleep at night and try to find things to occupy myself. Plus, I think I made another boo boo. I've been venting at night when I thought she weas alseep, just sitting and listening to music or tossing stuff around. It helps me to get rid of frustration and lonliness. The nights have been the hardest lately. I wake up sometimes, and find that I'm cuddling w/ her and she's swatting me trying to shove me off. I'm finding that I get frustrated less and less as we talk here, and that my days are fairly easy to get through. I'm hoping to completely curb it.

Part of my problem is not having someone anone to do anything w/. The W certainly isn't going to do anything w/ me that she doesn't have to. We don't go bowling or anyhing anymore. Apparently that's reserved for time w/ her OM. Family doesn't help because they all keep shoving their opinions on me and are usually too busy to stop by. I don't have any friends. I gave them all up when i was being miserable for all that time. How do you get rid of the lonliness? I'm not so much afriad right now as I am just lonely. If I could curb the lonliness, I'd be doing ok. It hits me hardest when she's around. Otherwise I manage. I think i need a friend to do things w/, but I've got nobody. My only really good friend moved last year and lives a couple hours away. He wasn't someone I could talk to about this anyway. That's part of my problem too, I need to stop thinking about this so much. I need a release or a break or soemthing? Suggestions?


Read each of those paragraphs and tell me the resulting feelings from the two different perspectives.

"I tend to want out of a relationship what i put into it. If I don't get that, I tend to start to withdraw. I like having my mate constantly by my side, but taht doesn't mean that I have to be interacting w/ them when they are there the whole time. it's just nice to know they are there sometimes. I don't know..."

"I choose to want out of a relationship what I put into it. If I don't get that, I choose to withdraw. I choose to almost constantly have my mate by my side, but don't always choose to interact w/ them when they are."

The first one is all wishy washy. It's like " I want this but maybe I don't, I do this or maybe i don't, i don't know what i really want.. I'm kinda just floating through life and not really getting anythijg out of it."

The second one makes me feel empowered. I want this, and if i don't get it then I do this. This is how i chhose to live my life, doing what is right for me because I'm in control.


These are like exercises to nourish the new muscle, which is changing your beliefs.

My whole post to you, if I can remember (took a few hours before it flew away), was about finding your payoffs...

We don't do anything that doesn't have a payoff for us. Our old habits aren't just routines we fell into...there was a payoff to us in them. Stopping yourself from attempting to control, manipulate and choosing your actions based on the possible response all had payoffs.

What do you think your payoffs were? How does it payoff for you acting from your feelings (which is reacting)?

I don't know. I felt control, but only sometimes. that's wrong. To be honest w/ you, it felt more like i never had control over my life. Ever. So instead I tried to control everyone else. That filled a need for something I was missing in my life. I wouldn't change my life, so i tried to manipulate everyone elses. That only made me angry because I would never get anywhere, and when I did there was no satisfaction in it. That made me depressed. maybe the payoff was being detached. If i couldn't control my life, why should I care how I live it. So i turned to material things. They never made me happy either. Eventually it drove me over the edge.


"Could that not be considered "relating to one another"?"


Great question. What does relating mean to you? Finding commonalities between you, so you can see through their eyes? Feeling like this person's life experience is similar to your own? In marriage, our life experience becomes, through the years, something in common...relating becomes second nature, and this errodes that respect I was talking about. Assumptions and mindreading walk in, unnoticed, because, after all, weren't you both there when that thing happened? Didn't you both see, feel, smell, touch the same thing?

yeah, I think that's something I've been looking for. Someone whose similar to me. I think I've been so sick and tired of clashing, never having a good relationship, that I've decided that finding osomeone the same as me is my solution. Can't argue w/ someone who views life the same as you, has the same likes, dislikes, thoughts, feelings. I'm just don't want to argue, disresepect, control, "be controlled", judge... anymore. I just want to be happy for a change. Enjoy life. Over the last year or so, I've not fully enjoyed a single thing I've done because i was constantly thinking that maybe that one thing i was dojng would be the thing that release me from my misery, and when it didn't work it took away from the experience. I love Florida. This past years vacation was one of the best experiences of my life. The whole itme i was there tohugh, I kept thinking I'd be miserable when i got home and it took away from the experience. By the time I got to PA on the aay back, I was so digusted w/ this place I could have just turned around and never came back. My attitude was horrendous. I don't know how i made it from day to day.

Relating as a married couple can easily become enmeshment...we see ourselves through our partner's eyes, and do the same for them. We begin telling each other who the other really is...in our early fusion stage, it is positive, "You are so kind, loving, gentle..." "You are a generous man, you know that?" See the defining? Sneaky, huh? Can appear to build the "relating" when what we are really doing is what our parents did for us as infants and toddlers...being our mirrors until we could be our own.

I can see that. I've always hated it when someone told me "I love you more!" or "you're such a good guy..." I know it's meant to be a compliment, but I always want to say "You don't know me." I still want to say it. Now I know why. :O)

Well, lots of us didn't become our own mirrors...parenting becomes habit, as I'm sure you've realized, and we keep defining, (mirroring) long past our children's ability to define themselves...then we choose romantic loves who will continue the mirroring, but we feel more equal, have more control, than we did with our parents' mirroring...and then our marriage partners step in and assume the role.

Yup. My Mom and my W are alot alike. I'm alot like my parents (or am I?). My W and my Mom weren't always similar. I'm thinking that I put expectations on my W, or influeneced her into kind of picking up that role.

Then it gets ugly, like it did with our parents...we define who we are, don't we? This is how I grew up to live externally...making everyone, even strangers, my mirror, forcing them to tell me who I was...I was so constant at this, I envisioned having a bumper sticker made that said,

1-800-How'sMyLiving?

yeah. When i was younger, I always went out of my way to please the authority figures around me. doing wht I thought was the right thing to do because it was expected. On my own, I was different. When WW and i got together, she tried to implement total control over me. I submitted to her, unless she lashed out, then i lashed out. When she accused me of being insensitive, flirtatious, and unworthy I actually believed her... I knew I "couldn't help myself" though so i told her lies and whatever else she wanted to hear to stay in her good graces. Then, the pleasing kind of just became the norm once our DD was born. Once that happened, i felt like i had lost control totally. that's when i started to really focus on being controlling myself. I couldn't lash out anymore, not around DD so all i had left was controlling. That worked out "well" for me because it tied into parenting and then my wife kind of submitted to me at some point. We started submitting to each other, and eventually i won. It makes me sick now.

Well, at the same time, our true selves...the one we have we shoved aside because it didn't please enough to protect us (my case), sits inside of us, at war to reclaim us to ourselves, sending feelings as information that others definitions of us were wrong...that the act of doing it was wrong, corrupting, destructive...most likely, fear came first, what if they're right? when we were being defined unpleasantly...then anger...we had a boundary against being defined by others that we kept allowing, nay, forcing others to cross...so we punished them when they didn't define us as we'd like to be told we are.

Yeah, I was angry at my W for years because it never truly felt like she appreciated me. Saw my worth, and didn't bow down to me for the things i did for her.

What a mess. So, "relating" comes in last place in my book for that reason. Connecting has the top spot...I stay vulnerable by sharing my truth with you, do not define you, hold to my standards and boundaries, and connect to you, not through feelings, but respect.

See taht's a problem for me. I';m not sure I know the difference between relating and connecting. I'm not sure I've actually ever connected w/ anyone. Especially not in a serious relationship.

The feelings resulting from doing this are of delight, pride, appreciation, admiration--sure there is frustration when I slip...have to stay aware of flipping back into the mirroring game...there was great payoff in that. I could earn love, hence, always have it and reduce my fear I would lose it.


yeah. I liked pleasing alot, but felt like crap if I managed to mess up.

Untruths, I've come to realize. Because then I'm chained to earning love...if I make another love me through my actions, then I don't feel as loved when they due (I made them, right?). And also, if they don't love me in the way I love them, when and how I do it, then I feel they are unfair, not equal, not seperate...I deserve love.

Yup.

More untruths, I think.

Falling in love with the very act of loving won't protect you from pain; it will, however, be an open, resilient, powerful way to live because it is based on choice...choosing to believe I love and showing it. No response required. The more I focus on my act of love, the better I see how I am loved...cherished...desired...and accepted. For me. Not what I'm doing, but who I am being.

I think OM has some issues. What does it mean when the OM says he can't go back to the way his life was before he met my W? No self love/repsect in that. He's gonna be a pleaser I think. If I were being judging and controlling right now I'd say they deserve each other. When she told me that, I told her I felt the same way. It didn't feel right to me though. I know I can move on if I have to. She doesn't define me. Plus, he's shy like I was, doesn't have many real friends, I don't think he goes out and does anything on his own. Seems really nice right now to her, because he's attentive to her needs. Yet, if she ahs to say to him that we are both driving her nuts, there' something there taht he's doing that is really getting under her skin. I need to start feeding on that. I need to get a jump on getting my act together. Stop having "tantrums" and start meeting her EN's. I just don't know how I'll do tht latter if she won't talk to me right now, and has this attitude that I suck and am really making her life miserable. Specific suggestions?


My biggest cvoncern right now is my DD. If our marriage doesn't work, I'm going to have a hard time dealing w/ knowing what she'll have to endure. I can see her falling into patterns myself and WW have fallen into already. It concerns me greatly. I need to start respecting her more... Man. I don't want her to put herself through the same garbage we have. I'm really concerned about her being there w/ WW if I'm gone. W/ WW's attitude, she's gonna have lot of negative influence on DD. Brother... I don't know.

Human.

Equal. Seperate. No more forcing someone else to hold my pain, happiness, beliefs or thoughts in their hands and value them, examine and hand back who I am. Too much. I can't do it well for others and do my acts of love, can I?

So I understand the idea here. I'm really in a zone today. Problem is this... I've been feeling my way through life, and pleasing for so long... I'm not sure how to quite turn it off. W/ everything going on right now, it's not been easy trying. I keep saying it, but if this is going to work, I really think I need to get out of taht house, or turn off feelings for WW. I don't know. Suggestion?


Well, enmeshment got you here, Inf...same for me and so many others...we felt fusing together made us one--had to do a "tit for tat" for balance...I do for you, you do for me; I respect you, you respect me; I take care of you, you take care of me...which is hanging your rear out in the breeze with your eyes closed. Not vulnerable with your self or your truths. Because you can only control you.

which is hanging your rear out in the breeze with your eyes closed... >:OD That's a new one by me. Where are you from?!?!?! Ha! :O) yeah. I'm not sure I know how to have a relationship where I'm not pleasing. Man. Long road ahead.


Now backwards through your post to the questions...are you saying for the second or third time you're considering leaving the home to make your focus stay on you, not her, easier?


I don't know what I'm saying. I don't want to leave, but my being there doesn't seem to be helping. Actually, let me rephrase that... My being there, and acting the way I have been, doesn't seem to be helping. I still have these feelings that pop up that I want to react to. Not nearly as often, and the reactions aren't as bad, but it's there and she sees it. It's like an addiction when it happens. I feel like I'm going through withdrawals... Especially the lonliness. Plus, she's being extemely "controlling", judgemental and disrespectful right now. I guess now I know how it feels.

"I'm waiting for the change in me." Waiting won't get it. Active awareness will. You are a marvelous mystery to yourself...all those "I just want to be me's" in your posts leave out the choice to be you...and knowing our rejected selves is difficult. We can point to the selves we created for us...pleasers had to be kind, even if they weren't, had to put others ahead of themselves to be loved; had to fix problems for others who couldn't fix them for themselves so they could be needed; and the list goes on.

Yeah. I should be saying "I can't wait for the change in me"? "I'm choosing to take the steps necessary to be me"? :O)

Find the payoff in every choice of action. Know it. Know it each time you choose.

Who are you? "Healing The Shame That Binds Us" by John Bradshaw is where I started.

I really need to consider trying to get my hands on one of these titles sometime. Though, I never really learn alot from reading so much as I do by hashing things out like this. I'm a hands on kind of guy. I'm around 79% visual when it come to learning too. Forget audio. Unless it's music, but tath takes alot of concentration on my part.

Your condundrum for fixing you/marriage/her/you/marriage is coming from not owning only your part. The enmeshment in your marriage comes from both of you...takes two willing participants. Only your part matters.

Only my part matters... So I guess I'm S.O.L if she deosn't want to own her part. >:OP So far, I'm not seeing it. It's like that comment she made this morning. "I don't see this going well." If I were trying to read what she were saying, i would think she was saying she was making an effort but it's not panning out because I'm ruining it. To me, it doesn't look like she's trying at all. She said she tried to get rid of OM, but he wouldn't have any of it and gave the "can't go back to my life comment. You know what she said to him to get that response. She said "I can't take it anymore. I wish you two would both go away." Not much of an effort on her part IMO. That's like saying "I'm sick of dealing w/ both of you at once, but if one of you goes away then it'll be easier for me to cope."

Try weaning your focus away from her...your mirror. Each time you judge her for a comment, a look or an action, immediately look inside yourself for that judgment. You'll find it. You will find in you what angers you in others. Then ask yourself, why is it there? Why is this part of me? What does it do?

Weaning. bah! :O) It seems that it's not so much me "focusing" on her (I'm not trying to control her) as it is me having feelings for her. Those feelings seem to trigger habitual reactions. Me wanting to touch her, or talk to her.. things like that. When I'm not having the feelings, I'm good. I can talk normlly around everyone but her, but then when I'm w/ her I freeze, or feel awkward.


Similar to finding the payoff.

It isn't about not caring for everyone else...it is about contributing to them by changing yourself. And the beauty is, you can do this cleaning out a shed, fixing a door, making dinner...what I did do is eliminate television. Something about it kept me from being able to stay aware of me. Got lost.

I think music is doing that to me. I've never listened to music to get out of a mindset, but to fuel it. When I get depressed, I don't turn on a happy tune. I turn on a depressing tune. If i try the opposite, it irritates me. Spending time w/ DD seems to be the only relase I have right now. Even that isn't always working. It makes me think aobut not being there. Video games aren't cutting it, and take away from time w/ family. You know what really helps me release. Speed. Riding a fourwheeler, street bike. Driving doesn't really do it. I feel enclosed. I have this thing for feeling "free". I'm sure I know why too. I like riding trails at fast speeds. Too bad i don't have either of those options right now.

Examine why the confidence, control of mischief in eyes is alluring. Does it say, give up your pleasing, controlling, manipulating, I'm in charge? What does it represent to you? Dig for it.

Freedom. No restrictions. I put alot of restrictions on myself out of fear. Fear of death, fear on injury. All things that could restrict my freedom. Irony. I want freedom, but am afriad to emvrace it. <:O)

That and girls w/ that look in their eyes tend to be a little more "adveturous" and "creative" if you get what I mean? We won't go there.

"I want her to have my same beliefs and feelings because then our marriage will/could work." No, your marriage wouldn't work...but you are much closer to the payoff...if she had your same beliefs, feelings, reactions and thoughts...would you be safe to share all of you? I think that is a belief we have yet live opposite of...we aren't safe with ourselves. What we do to others, we do to ourselves. No safety there. But we crave accepting ourselves, as we are, warts and all, don't we? So if your partner is you in an opposite sex body, then you would finally accept you?

I didn't mean that literally. I don't want her to be me. I want her to want the marriage. can't control her. Can't force her. I want it from her because it satisfies my want.

I need to stop using the word 'just' all the time. I'm using it to "just"ify the things I'm saying. Like it's no big deal if that's all I want or something. Like there's soemthing wrong w/ my thoughts, feelings or actions. That, or. When I'm talking to my WW and I the subject of my lying about those certain events come up, I'm like "I just talked to her, that's all." To me, i know I shouldn't have done it, but it's not that big a deal. She may not look at it that. It's like I'm judging her for not looking at it from my perspective.

Or the false you that you believe you are? Because if your WW continues to believe like you...tit for tat, punishment for punishment, pain for pain, anger for anger, then isn't she being you already? Isn't that what is destroying your marriage? She is choosing from her feelings...like you did.

yeah. I almost said taht I don't think she'll ever change. :O) After we dropped the serious abuse issues, she changed. Not 100%, but she did change. She wasn't so darn controlling. I don't know if it's because she was trying to be her, or if it's because she felt controlled. I don't know.

Pondering here...want to know how you see it when you sit and think about it. Write down your feelings after each thought...pick a belief you really know well and put it in her for a moment...pretend she is acting on it towards you; not a belief about you. Which feeling results in you? It is information. Use it.


That's a tough one. Example please.


Sounds like I'm asking you to focus on her and negates all I've urged you to do, doesn't it? If you've made others mirrors for you all your life, makes sense to use that to get back to yourself and be your mirror. Don't focus on what she is doing...but if she were the same as you.

Is there peace? Acceptance? Joy? Delight? Or fear, more fear, anger, pain, frustration?

" I guess I need to come to a full realization that she can't. If I did that, it wouldn't matter if she tried to or not." You're really getting there. Takes time to sink in...and when we're in pain, time stretches out like a long road to nowhere, doesn't it? Time, awareness and the belief you can change are essential ingredients. You've got them.

It feels like forever. I've been going through this for months and months now and each day w/ the WW seems like an irritating eternity. Actually make that 27+ years. there are rare momoents from the past that i know I was "me" during. Boy Scout Summer Camp was one of those. I loved that place. When I was there, I didn't care if I ever came home. I felt free to do whatever, whenever. It was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had.

"I just want someone who I can be open w/ w/out being judged. I'm not sure my W can give that to me?"

This depends on you. Only you.

"How does her judging me depend on me? or am I not seeing something? maybe that it's my choice to be w/ her if she continues to judge me? You've got me stumped."

When you change your permissions and do not allow yourself to judge, you will feel less judged; the more you increase your self-acceptance, you will feel more accepted.

I get it now. I was thinking " I don't feel bad about me right now. I feel pretty darn good about me actually. So, I'm not judging me, but she is. How does that work?" What i was really doing, was judging me saying "I'm supreme." Then I looked at her and said "She's not as good as me, she judges me and I don't judge her." Pretty clever, eh?

You are removing the component within your control...doesn't make others change, just changes how you receive. Huge difference. Try it, you'll like it.

the hard part will be trying it. it sounds good on paper. Then when I get home, I'll "feel" like I'm being judged.
I react, and react, and react. because i feel, and feel, and feel. I talked to my Mom the other night. Nothing aobut the WW bothered me during the discussion. Bothered my Mom, but not me. I told her, it's because I can't control her. she does htat and I'm wroking on me. my Mom sounded concerned, like I wasn't being reasonable because i wasn't reacting to my WW's recent actions. It's only when I'm exposed to my WW, or concentrating solely on her that I feel and react the most.


This works especially well in marriage because of the previous enmeshment...if you have been doing tit for tat all your life, and you change the tat...well, the tit will change, too, won't it? Boy, I gotta get a new phrase...help me out here.

I dunno? it's really working for me... >:OD If you really want to change it though, add some H's in there.

Your partner is used to getting from you pain for pain, anger for anger...do you think non-judgment for consistent non-judgment might slip in, long before they begin to feel safe with you? Not immediately...slowly, just like the relating became enmeshment.

It's funny you should mention that. One of her big things is has been me changing. She can't see it, won't believe it and doesn't expect it to happen. Every time I have a relapse, she's like "ha! see i told you so!" She's also said to me "I was mentally preparing myself for you to be angry..." and " you've been saying you'll cahnge for years.
She almost seemed disappointed when I didn't get mad taht time. It's almost like she gets angrier now if i don't react the way she expects me to. It's like she's looking for it to happen so she can justify something to herself, and when she doesn't get taht she doesn't feel satisfied.


"The things I'm proud of were choices I've made regardless of feelings because I want her to be able to make her own choices.

The things I'm not proud of seem to be reactions to things that conflicted w/ my feelings at the time."

Just a Wow here. That's all. Wow. Oops, another one.

I believe parenting is intimate...if you are fatigued and desire quiet, private time, you can tell your child that you do. Only you have to put a time limit on it and hold yourself to it. If you are feeling afraid, tell the child. Show them how you handle fear. Sadness. Pain. And when they feel those things, validate them by saying, "I see you're angry about that." "Are you afraid of that? I can understand being afraid of that." Don't fix, change, distract or tell them not to feel what they feel.

I do that. get mad at her for being sad or angry sometimes. <:O( I have a nasty habit of reacting to her feelings, which in turn is clearly showing her to do the same thing. I can see me in her... alot. it's like when she's getting dressed in the morning. She wants to wear short sleeved shirts in the Winter. I'm not having it. i tell her no. She gets mad, won't get dressed. I leave. She begs and cries for help, but then when i offer she just sits there. that's me all over again. i did that when i was her age, all the way up until sometime last year. WW would ask me if i wanted something... I really did but would say no because i thought it would be an inconvenience. She'd say ok, and i would get mad because she didn't get it anyway. If she got it though, i would get mad because she was going against my wishes. I was conflicted inside, and no matter what she did it was going to be the wrong thing. My DD is already like that. Troubles me.

When your DD won't get dressed, ask, "So, you don't want to get dressed? Do you wish all of us could stay home today and play?" "Yes. I hate mornings." "I really look forward to Saturday when we all stay home and play, do you?" "Yes!" "It is only two more days to Saturday. I really like being with you."

That's crazy! I didn't read ahead when writing that previous statement. >:OD Are we relating? Ha! I've tried taht approach, and it was succesful. My mastery of it was terrible, but I managed enough to get the desired response.

Kids want power of choice and they truly have very little. Find where you can build their awareness of their choices...owning their part in life...and your child will not define themselves through you and others. Hopefully.

yeah. I need to be respectful of her. <:OI

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now...for Al-Anon...I find it a must for control freaks. Best place in the world to change your beliefs. To really get that no one controls anyone...and that all the years of believing so has gotten us into a mess which we can't control anymore.

Would you be open to finding a meeting near you and attending? There are many and you can shop around a few in a week. Find a group you like and go once or twice a week for an hour.

Mmmm... I don't know. that would be something I'd have to warm up to.

If you want to really know what your expectations are, look at your DD and what you want for her. In there are some wishful wants, real wants, and critical needs of your own.

Hmmm... One thing I notice is that I wanted the wrong things for her. I wanted her to be me all over again sometimes. Atleast i did until recently. Alot of times, I would look at her and think "you're just like your Mother" and resent that. Scary thought. I kept thinking that she was too rebelious... (turns out I was looking for he to be a pleaser.). Back when i was having those few months of total meltdown... I made the mistake of telling my wife taht I was sick of both of them, that they were exactly alike. My WW took that pretty hard. I kicked myself for saying it, but not nearly as much as I'd like to be kickng myself for it right now. That was the past. I'm not judging myself for it, but learning from it.

Get to know them.

Will do. :O)

Sorry about losing the post this morning. I hope God meant for this one to go, instead.

you've got some 'splainin' to do Lucy. :O)

Keep it coming. :O)

LA

Good morning! You haven't lost a post yet? Really? Congrats. May you never. Make a habit of copying your post before you hit submit...sometimes, something happens, and you can't go backward or forward...sometimes, refresh will work. Any which way...it is a sad thing. I lived through it.

I'm one lucky SOB sometimes. :O) Other times, not so much.

"I'm not sure that's the repsonse you were looking for?"

You say this a lot...I hear you are attempting to give me what I want...that you want to give me the right answer...I just want your answer. Honestly. You make your life. I'm not standing here telling you that you're doing it wrong. It is your life and decisions.

Not so much as I am unsure of whether or not the response i gave was judgemntal or controlling. Sometimes I'm unsure if i've crossed a line. I don't view it as wrong, but rather as something i want to lern from if I've done it.

Give me your truth, if you are willing, and we both will benefit. Give me what you think I want to hear and we may be harmed. Just how I look at it. Willing to take the risk.

that's cool. :O)

Is there anyway you can journal your anxiety at night? Kinetic displacement for emotions does work...temporarily. Journaling gives both a kinetic release as well as an audible/visual one, and later, in the re-reading, you get to see how far you come.

Something I've considered, especially today. I also want to print all of these converastions and make a record of all of the things I've learned here. I thought it might help when I'm going into counseling and trying to reexplin myself all over again.


Right now, you want to discover your truths...not the ones you were taught, or bought into, but your very own. Journaling is the most direct way to see it.

it must be very much like writing here. Though, when I reread things I've written I compare taht to what I'm feeling at the time i"m reading it instead of thinking it out sometimes... Something I'll have to work on.


I find your description of your physical venting oddly an analogy to your perception of your DD jumping rope in the house...maybe you could look at that, the two ways you have handled hers, and how you handle yours.

I like to physically vent. In various healthy and unhealthy ways. The S word is one. Violence is another unfortuanately. I have a habit of throwing, punching, swinging and bashing w/ the intent to destroy random things. Most times I'm able to channel it to things like pillows, or throwing my wedding ring as of late. I feel something like withdrawal if I'm not doing it sometimes. Very bad, I know. Not that I'm proud of it, but a long time ago I once punched a hole through a solid wood panel in our bathroom door just because my W locked herself in so she didn't have to listen to me. I reached through the hole, unlocked the door, finished yelling at her and then walked away. made a mess of my hand, but I was so adrenaline fueled I didn't notice for some time. I don't miss those days. W says I'm like a pacing animal when I'm that angry. Really don't miss it.

My problem w/ jump roping in the house is not wanting things to get broken. I'm protective of material things. They're only things though. Things can be replaced.

So you've pared your life down socially, from last year when you reclused (I just decided to conjugate that a new way, do you like it?). Now you are in a position of being more dependent on your WW than ever. Interesting to me. Can you step back and look at this like a soft moulding from God's hand? Your choices...verging on others' choices. Teaching you, possibly, that for now, you're enough...giving you time not to distract, but rely and enjoy your own company. There's something in you, Inf, that hates yourself...mixing that with hating the situation...where others are the cure.

I see your point. I enjoy outdoor activities. Freedom. I don't have the opportunity to do alot of my favorites in the Winter. I like time to myself. Love it. I like time w/ friends and family too. I like it best when I have both at the same time if that makes any sense. having them there, but w/out full interaction. part of the reason for my wanting company right now is that I don't think I cn do this alone yet. Another reason is I don't feel connected to anyone right now, except DD. I want connection on my own level too though. Someone to share every aspect of life w/. Hmmm... connected? Ok...

I feel like there's strength in me having numbers right now too. That's me trying to justify my wanting my marriage to work, and my being right that it should. it's not really working for me Dr. Phil. :OD

You're funny...I know you make yourself laugh. You are tender, so I know you can console well...massaging your own feet or calves...read, read...Life of Pi (Yann Martel)...the funny papers and meditate. You could find the balance you've been craving...or go out and make new friends to meet your ENs...making sure you know you're telling yourself that you must be filled from the outside in.

I like to laugh. The craziest things get me going. I love Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It has to be smart humor though, and tasteful to an extent. None of that South Park,or Scary Movie garbage. My DD and i have been rewinding and watching Jack Black do his air guitar, slash air drum, slash singing routine for the Kids Choice awards on Nickelodeon over and over again. I can't get enough. She gets annoyed. I think that's funny too. Maybe i shouldn't?

I make a great ear to bend. Always willing to listen and sometimes even have some good advice to give.

I hate massage. More pain than pleasure. I don't like giving them either, but will if provoked. Forget meditation. Tinitus ruined that for me. I used to sit in the field and listen to the wind,or just to the quiet. Gives me a whole new appreciation for the phrase "peace and quiet.". The comics bore me. Video games are probably my best bet, though they tend to make me high strung. I just haven't been in the mood so much for taht lately. I used to draw, and quite well. Kinda gave that up though. Took up too much time since I'm slow. I'd play M:tG but deck building frustrates me. I don't know. For being easy going and relaxed, I take everything I do seriously. I don't know that I;ve found anything that truly relaxes me. I don't enjoy meeting new people. there are other things i would rather do than talk. I don't know. i'll have to think bout that one. alot. Riding the fourwheeler might be the only one I can think of. I don't have that luxury right now...

I didn't see more of your comments...you just handing me all those hundreds of words right back to me.

Any thoughts on payoffs? No rush...just wondered.

As for dates...why not ask your WW for one a week? Something you remember as you both enjoying, setting it up like you did when you courted her? If she says no, go by yourself. Seriously. You can take her with you in your mind...her loss, not your rejection.

Ha! For a minute there, I thought you told me to ask my WW out on a date? taht would have been funny. Seriously though. She hesitates when asking me to go shopiing w/ her and DD. I think she watches movies w/ me because she knows i won't talk during the movie. <:O) She's done more fun things w/ OM and DD than w/ me and DD in the last month or two. As far as i know, it's only been twice too. makes me want to cry. I'd go by myself, but she works nights and would get suspicious if i went anywhere alone. She was getting on my case for walking at 1am in the morning... I don;t know. I'll consider it. I don't like frequenting public places by myself though.

Dating my WH was really tough. Brought back essentials, though; felt risky, full of rejection; did it anyway. Glad I did.

In laws suggested it, but seperating. WW thought dating was a good idea before. She probably still does. Only dating the OM... *insert grumpy stick out tongue face*


You can cut the loneliness with Al-Anon; like getting those two birds with one stone.

Are you trying to tell me something? :O) It's the middle of the night taht's the worst. Al-Anon won't help there?

Appreciate your truths and time,

yeah. time is killing me right now though. :O)

Keep it coming. :O)

LA

Thank you for the tinitus explanation. It is what my oldest has...an acceptable loss in the army...but I know it's from loud music.

Yeah... now taht i have my old job back, I've got the headphones on again. I'm pretty sure taht was my problem. The headphones. I enjoy the music too much to totally give it up...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hear you had a meltdown--LB's galore. No choices, lots of venting, desperate statments and following your feelings.

*groan* Am I ever going to break this pattern? I keep thinking that if I'm not willing at some point to just take the leap and just do whatever it is I need to do regardless of outcome, I'm never going to get through this. It's taking that leap... :O(

It happens. We are all complex humans.

It doesn't need to though. <:OI That's the thing. I know that i could drop all this nonsense and take the leap at any minute and that i would survive it. I just have it ingrained in my mind that if i do everything to the letter, I'm going to destroy all chances of this working.

I did it, also, and am still married. I believe that says more for my DH than me, though.

Yeah. I don't know that my WW will stay in this situation much longer.

Please note that you went back to work to post...you were seeking a way through, and didn't allow the late hour or what people might think stop you.

Self-care.

Don't measure it by how well it worked...just that you did it.

D'oh. You told me not to and i started doing it anyway. Is it something that is... how do i word it w/out judging the action... beneficial? or was it counter-productive? I think beneficial... when I'm not feeling my way through it and seeing only the impact it could have on the marriage...


Orchid has some advice for you on Karenpc's thread.

I don't the money for an attorney, and I don't believe my Mom would hire one for for this purpose. If I'm understanding what that purpose is? She'd hire one for DD's sake, but taht's about it...

See you Monday.

LA