I'm here, Inf...

Took a night away to go to a book signing. Words are like music to me, so that made her a rock star, seeing her in person. My work was piling up yesterday, so I had to actually do some.

No kidding. That's cool. :O)I remember the time I went and saw STP (Stone Temple Pliots) in concert (fave band ever). It wasn't one of their best shows, but I'll still never be the same. :O) That, and when I went to see WWE at the arena w/in the last year or so. We sat next to the stage, up against the barricade. We were two feet away from some pretty famous wrestlers at any given point. (Yeah, I like wrestling. Not for the violence, but for the technical aspect of it.). I'm glad you had a good time. :OD


Ouch, pictures. That was a trigger for me. H loves photography. Had pix on the computer of OW. I wrestled that one for about a month and then deleted all of them. He recommitted in Dec 04, and two days later, put more pix of her on the computer from an event. This time, I had the MC to back my feelings: Doing that is like coming home from work and punching her in the face.

I took the pictures. I have them here today. Showed them around to a few people... Thought about destroying them. WW hasn't commited to anything other than trying to put me through the ringer lately, so doing that may only set her off. The pics weren't an issue for me. It was her hiding them that set me off. She hides alot from me. I've never appreciated it... I know she has trust issues, but as her husband I always thought that she should have a little more faith in me. I wonder how much she's actually confided in OM? Anyway... The first thing I "felt" was that she has some hidden agenda. I don't know why she hid them. Only she does. It could be that she thought I would destroy them, it could be she thought I would go off on her for having them.It could even be that she is madly in love w/ him and has been working on creating some other secret life w/ this guy behind my back. I don't know. I'm not sure that I want to trust her now... Yeah, if I were still getting angry on a regualr basis I'd be wanting to punch them both in the face right now. Really would have made me sick.

It got through. No more pix. I still have a hard time when he has a camera in his hand, no matter the reason. I breathe through it, know it is my own. Gets one degree easier each time.

Her going to work bothers me. DD left school sick this morning. WW calls to tell me she has her at work. Then says that she is going to leave at Noon when OM comes in to cover her shift. I'm assuming she called OM herself to ask. I have yet to get her to commit to working on our relationship. I'm not sure she will. Plan B keeps creeping up on me. Only, it'll probably be her that initiates it by kicking me out. We'll see. I'm trying to get as much info on her relationship w/ OM as possible right now. I want to know what I'm up against and if this is even worth trying to save. I need to start doing what's best for me and DD and our marriage and stop trying to please WW w/ fantasy...

Is there anything more important in your life than getting that order rescinded? Marked as not voluntary, in opposition to, anything? Just curious.

What order? Sole Custody? Legal Seperation? You lost me.

Good to see you know when you jump into a future that isn't there. Want it to end right now by worrying about an unreasonable goal you set for yourself before you knew that life turns and you're not in control of it.

Yeah... I constantly try to control the future by keeping everything in my ife the same. WW has been big on change lately (as we can see), and has made mention of her not knowing that I've changed because nothing in my life has changed.

Are you seeing what is, Inf? You are still in the house, talking with your wife. It didn't stop overnight. It might, but you don't know. What you do and think today matters. Matters every day.

I know. Her control over me being there is a real issue for me. That bothers me alot. She feels the power of that control. I can see it. When she mentions my leaving, she hugs me and treats me like I'm inferior. Like I'm a child that doesn't understand. The sarcastic "Awwww..."s. and the "it's okay Baby". "Baby" is her pet name for me. She still uses it non-stop.

I'm happy you thought more on the walking...found a reason it doesn't work the way I proposed...that you had an added variable I didn't. There's a lot of music out there not from disc or radio...in the night air, coming from the sky and from underneath the pavement. Your own thoughts are not to be run from. Respect them. Let them roll by, observe some and think others. Healthy self-time is important. You matter.

The silence kills me (as it's not really silent anymore). It's like an irritating distraction. What I need to do is choose some neutral music to listen to. :O) I could appreciate the sounds around me if it weren't for the ringing.

I don't know what BFF means.

Best Friend(s) Forever. It's the only thing I could come up w/ to use. I didn't want to type best friend every time I made mention of her. BFF is/was actually used by school kids recently.

"A lot better at doing special things." Time to do them again. This time, why not try the intent to express love, not get something in return? That was your intent before, but when life went on, maybe not the reactions you wanted, or as much of them, or which ones, you let your conscious acts of love drop away...the ones that tell your self you know and do from what you believe...act out love because you are loving. Letting your love out is an important part of Plan A, I think. Reclaims what was yours all along and removes the focus from the shoulders who carried it before.

I didn't do them expecting anything before, but because I loved her, it was fun and I had plenty of time to do them. The fun kind of got sucked out of it once we moved in together and she tried running my life.

I know snooping...through trashes, cars, finding journals, pictures, love gifts...oh, those were the days. My H only writes when he is in pain...or an A. Funny how that works. He writes love letters for other women. That was a resentment I created--I asked him for ten years running to write me a love letter for bday or Christmas...only gift I wanted. He chose not to. Wrote them like crazy for other women.

I used to write WW every night in High School, and for some time after we moved in together. Then, I started running out of things to say. We started arguing big time because she was jealous and controlling and I wasn't prepared to deal w/ that. She's asked me to write her since. I wasn't ever sure of what to say. By then I had fallen into the role of angry control freak and everything that wasn't benefitting me seemed like an inconvenience. Now I'm grasping for things to do for her. It's hard because she controls our money, and I'm not sure what I can do that won't annoy her right now. She's asked me to sing her a song once too. I get way too embarrased for anything like that. I sing around her all the time, but never for her. It feels different because I know I'd have her undivided attention... I need to do some brainstorming. Any suggestions?


Does this say something about him or me? Me. I do not DJ him by believing he is incapable, not his thing (picture man); he chooses not to. My part is not to create resentment. So I ask for expensive jewelry now and trips.

I wasn't giving her either. Now OM is giving her both. She has gifts from him scattered around the house. She gave him his necklaces back when i wouldn't shut up about them. i told her the other day that it made no sense to do taht if she was going to keep the rest of the things he bought her in the house. She sounded surprised and said she forgot about them. They're still there. the thing is, she stopped doing things like taht for me too. She'd buy a card fro no reason now and again. That was very thoughtful and i appreciated it every time she did it. I just wished we would have changed it up once in a while. I never spoke up though either.

LOL

Words matter a lot to me. I listen to him sing and let that be my love letter. To be in his presence, in his thoughts and be safe for both.

Words seem to matter to her alot too. I'm not good w/ words. Used to be better, but alot of that was the pleaser. She knows I'm quiet. OM is winning her over w/ words right now. That's why I write. She used to enjoy my writing and and I can say what I want when I'm writing. The words don't come to me otherwise, and if they do they sound timid and lack conviction.

Know your pain...remembering still hurts. When you want now to be over, to cut and run, the pain won't end, Inf. It can go underground and unravel your life. Better to keep it in plain sight, know it is for now, will heal. Believe that. Flickers and leaves after a couple of years. Doesn't mean there aren't great moments in between...a lot of them.

It doesn't "feel" like it will heal. I think about starting over, spending an eternity trying to find someone new, not having a home to call my own or any posessions to put in one. Turning thirty in two years and not already having an established life. Feeling like I could forgive her for anything, that I'll love her forever and never be able to move on. I can't see myself w/ anyone else, and I've tried... even when I didn't think I cared anymore I couldn't see it. then I think about her> she has the house, all of "our" posessions, our DD, and a possible prospect for a future replacement of me. Makes it that much easier for her to want to move on. She's not losing nearly as much as I am.

For exposure purposes...are you reconsidering?

I'm pondering the idea. Giving it some serious thought.
I got reckless a while back and ran the idea by her as a trade off for her not giving up OM (before MB) as someone I know made mention of it. She first viewed it as a threat. then gathered herself up and invited it as a challenge.
I feel like I'm letting her get away w/ whatever she wants and just throwing my beliefs by the wayside to appease her. I have to think on it some more. I have to make sure that if I'm going to do it that I do it to save the marriage and not out of revenge.


You are listening more to yourself--thoughts, feelings and beliefs. This will give you that better overall living, right now. Then you'll drop down, and rise again. Keep living with yourself, staying present, and you won't fall below what you can bear. Plans are necessary, Inf. What is yours?

I feel better. Then I have moments like Friday. I got out of the house because I knew I would only make things worse by being there. My plan? I wish I knew. Right now... I don't know. It should be Plan A. It feels more like Plan HA. (Plan Half A$$). I want to make the full commitment, but haven't been able to overcome some of those fears that I have of her and our future. My priorities seem to be skewed by illogical repsonses to outside stimuli.

Symbols. Wedding rings. Know symbols matter to you. I know they do to me. That yours bounced off the wall and hit her in the back meant something. Stop kinetically releasing your pain. Restrain. Breathe. Deep and long. The more you will speak it, the less you'll act it out.

Symbols are big for me too. They matter to WW, but she is willing to sacrifice them for a deeper acceptance and understanding. I have to be pretty out of sync to forsake something that symbolizes an important aspect of my life. I can talk the talk, but if I walk the walk you know I'm at my limits. It's like throwing my ring. It symobolizes me wanting to throw in the towel, but I always rush to get it back because of it's significance to me.

Maybe you can take that as a symbol...you threw your marriage at a wall, it bounced back. WW kept it, then gave it back. You can wear it again...but you were married every day in between. You are still married, Inf. You are.

That's the thing. I treat the ring as a symbol of our marriage. Yet, I know that the ring means nothing if the intent to honor our vows isn't there. It's just another hunk of metal at that point. I hate wearing rings. My wearing it despite that symoblizes to me my level of commitment to our realtionship.

"then gave it back..." My "feeling" on that right now is that she gave it back because it meant more to me than her.
I know I'm still married. That I'm me regardless of marriage. Marriage to me is a commitment not to be taken lightly. I fought it for several years because i wasn't ready for taht commitment. It was a giant step for me to take when I decided I was ready. When I don't have my head together lately, I start feeling like "marriage" has lost some of it's meaning. I "feel" like she's ruining it for me. I'm sure she "feels" the same way when she looks back on what I did.


"It's the idea of her having control over my leaving the house and her wanting this OM that got to me. She's literally got the power to seperate my DD and I. She's comprimising everything she's ever believed in and risking her happiness for a chance at a fling w/ an 18 year old and a difficult life... It's how I felt when this all first started, but in the end I figured it all out. I'm not sure she will? I just have to keep plugging away...

So... coming here and venting was inappropriate?"

You gave her the control over the house, your DD and your life right now. She has that power because you chose to give it to her. You are angry with yourself, but not because you're helpless. And you aren't. Yet...you are there, she is reacting to you, at war with herself. The better you Plan A and stop reacting but acting...the less helpless you'll feel.

I can't control the house. It's her father's. He told her recently that if I pull anything physical he'll come up here and kick me in the bum all the way to my Mom's house.
I did give her control of our DD, but I intend to get some of that back. She has said she'll be willing as long as I am not beligerent about it. and give her permission to leave state w/ our DD on vacations. That's what I need... a better Plan A and the commitemtn to back it up.


You did this. She did that. Both humans, doing stuff, Inf. You can take steps to undue it--I know you're smart enough to figure out how to do that. She is compromising everything she believed in--that is exactly what waywards, do, Inf. That is why your WW is WW and not W...not the same person...but as AdrianC said...they bear a striking physical resemblance.

Yeah... I feel like if I take those steps, she is going to take some of her own in a direction I don't want her going in. Still can't shake it. Still a struggle. Once in a while I get to hoping that she'll come around on her own so I don't have to take them. If you could, map out a solid step by step Plan Z and Plan B for me. I'm not too clear on the exact steps and the order I should take them in if there is one. I want to make sure I'm doing everything I can bring myself to do to try and make this work. I may not be ready for some of it right now, but I'd like to know what i need to do in case I find one day that I am.

How did you get that venting here is inappropriate?

I wondered the same thing myself later on. I was thinking that maybe I should have stayed home because my leaving in the middle of the night to go to work (the place she associates w/ OW) would have some impact on her feelings of distrust. I didn't think venting here was inappropriate so much as I did think that coming here of all places was.

Your WW flips back and forth, sharing conversation, affection, mixing it in with pushes and shoves. WS's do that. They are at war with themselves. You keep out of that battle, stay consistent...do not meltdown. You figure out your stress valves...you're an adult...distraction is not a stress reliever. Action is. You are in a situation where no action will fix it, but a thousand little ones will.

Reaction and distraction seem to be easier steps to take than stepping up and taking action. They tend not to produce immediate consequences. I'm finding that I slip and involve myself in her personal struggle more than I'd like to admit. She aks sme for my opinion and I don't always respond in a manner that is beneficial to the situation.

You know, what doesn't work for you--walking, lifting, working out, fatiguing yourself, meditation...all of those, well, have reasons why you choose not to do them. Hey, you have reasons why A's don't work for you--they hurt like a muther--but you're being a BS anyway, right? There are a lot of things that weren't your thing for your reasons. Life made them happen, and they became what you have to deal with to grow. Maybe less reasons why not and more just doing it anyway will help you learn them.

You could be right. I'm set in my ways, and will continue to be if I'm not willing to accept a little change now and again. The more rigid I am, the more my world is rocked when something like this comes my way.

I know the rejection hurts you, rocks you inside, for your words, written or spoken...that symbol, again, of being thrown away. Know it. Understand it. Change it in your mind...she is trying to throw all her feelings, history and love away...and can't. She's struggling to replace you and finding she really can't. She can hide her fantasy stuff to keep it alive, but it looks very embarrassing, very silly, in the light of day. You don't. You're her husband.

I think she's the type that can put everything aside long enough to obtain her goal... She always seems to find a way to allow herself what she wants despite the immense consequences she could face later. It's just a matter of how bad she really wants what she's after. It doesn't help that in this situation "he's me, only nice". He seems to be her chance at holding on to everything she already has, while making some "improvements", w/out keeping me there to do it. To me it looks like the fantasy is practically an upgraded version of the reality. Out w/ the old and in w/ the improved. "Now, w/ fresh scented Nice!"


I'm assuming I was right about not confronting her w/ the pictures.

Who was the author you went to see? Probably someone I've not heard of. I tend to associate lyrics w/ the person that sings them more than I do literature to the person that wrote it. I suppose it my have something to do w/ my taste in fantasy. I immerse myself in a good fantasy novel, so the words seem more a reflection of me. Lyrics tend to be more realistic and reflect the reality of the writer. I can relate to lyrics, but I feel reflected in words.

:O)


LA

This post is going to sound self-defeating. It should. I need to find a way to force myself into new habits. I don't know how to get past feeling like my marriage is more important than myself? I need a goal. Something to do for myself that seems impossible because I'm to afraid to do it and I need to force myself to do it regardless. Then I need to set another one. Force myself to do it. It would help if I had someone here to push me along. Of course, that would only be making it easier. I need to do this for myself, by myself. I'm going to have a stroke or something, I swear, but I have to do it. I don't think I'll be able to though. I won't just jump into something like this. Fear is already eating me up. I feel like if I subject myself to something traumatic right now I'm going to break. I've gotta do something though, or I'm just wasting my time. How did you put it? One big action gets you nowhere, but 1,000 little actions do? Does that apply here?

Thanx for bearing w/ me all this time. I think it's time for me to take another step, but I'm unsure of what that step should be?

"What order? Sole Custody? Legal Seperation? You lost me.

The agreement you signed which gives you one year before the divorce is final by default? That one you signed which gives WW sole custody? I asked you what is more important in your life than getting that rescinded...maybe it has to be challenged, I don't know the right word...no legal background here. Sorry. There are lawyers here at MB, if you make a thread asking for their advice for the state of NY, you know.

Never thought of that??? What would I do w/out you? You should take some time off from life and come out here to NY. I need someone w/ a good head on their shoulders to constantly ride my butt and make sure I'm not slipping up left and right. :OD j/k. I need to do this for myself.

None of that matters if the whole reason I am doing it is to save my marriage, but by doing it WW is going to take ultimate revenge. That is the feeling I have that dominates all my decisions. Legalities don't mean jack squat if the commitment isn't there. I can't see her commitment. I see her trying to take advantage of me, and justifying it before she boots me out and tries to live her new life w/out me.

"I know. Her control over me being there is a real issue for me. That bothers me alot." Yes, it is a reasonable pain to you. So, I ask again, what legally can you do to change that?

You got torn again, into that thinking from feelings...trying to assess if you want the marriage at all anymore...gathering evidence to make a just verdict in your mind...all the evidence you can present to yourself right now is tainted...you don't have your wife right now, but a WW...someone befuddled by an A, her own entitlement and resentment, lack of respect. That would be unfair to judge, wouldn't it? She wasn't that way before...why assess at all? You want to so that you can take action to stop your pain, right? But it won't stop your pain, correct?

I am looking at this from a warped perspective. Here's how the whole thing plays out in my mind.

WW gets angry, hurt.
WW becomes bitter, untrusting, uncaring.
WW has an A.
WW and I seperate.
Inf. is released from fear, judgement, control.
Inf. is happy.
WW makes fantasy a "reality'.
WW decides she is no longer bitter, untrusting, uncaring.
WW tries to make amends and be friends while living new, "improved" life w/ someone else.
Inf. gets angry, hurt.
Inf. is bitter and resentful and downright hates WW for the rest of his miserable life.

Not the outcome I'm hoping for, but the only one I can see when I look to the future.

"When she mentions my leaving, she hugs me and treats me like I'm inferior. Like I'm a child that doesn't understand. The sarcastic "Awwww..."s. and the "it's okay Baby". "Baby" is her pet name for me. She still uses it non-stop."

First, you DJ'd...you feel inferior when she mentions you having to leave and hugs you. State how you feel to her. "I feel inferior to you when you talk about splitting apart our marriage and then hug me. I feel anger at you crossing my boundary of respect when you are sarcastic, and tell me it is okay when it isn't okay to me at all."

Yup. I sit there and take it, minus telling her when she says something about us splitting up, that I don't want it to come to that. To me, it looks like she feels that I am inferior and that my drive,my wanting to make this work is unimportant. To me, it looks like she feels as though she is in total control of certain aspects of this situation. So, if I were to tell her how I feel about those subjects, given my assumption of her attitude, she would choose not to talk to me "at all" again. She seems to have this mind set that says "If you don't like what I have to say, I don't have to say anything at all to you. I'm doing you a favor by talking to you in the first place."


I statements have power...not to control, manipulate or change anything but hand you your own results. You speak by practicing state your thoughts and feelings with ownership, Inf. Power. Yours. Real. God given for a purpose. For intimacy. Openness and Honesty is what you crave from WW...when you're not doing it yourself. Attacking, placing blame, slicing and dicing up to get evidence...when you aren't staying true to a code seperate from reaction...your standard. Balance, Inf. Speak with a dedication to no cause, control or cure...no blame, justice or should be's...stay true to what is and your part.

I keep thinking off and on, "Why should I try to include her in my attempt to better myself when she clearly isn't trying to include me in hers, doesn't treat me as an equal and doesn't respect my feelings or input." I realixe that I should do this for me, regardless of her behavior and that I'm judging her and myself by feeling this way. I seem to have this priority hang up. I want my marriage to work more than I want to be myself. I almost want to be miserable and resent/hate her if this doesn't work. I want to be angry again so that, "when" this doesn't work, I won't hurt as much. I don't feel this way all the time. It's hard not knowing. Once a control freak... <:O)

Honesty injection here...I'm calling you on this:

"I didn't do them expecting anything before, but because I loved her, it was fun and I had plenty of time to do them. The fun kind of got sucked out of it once we moved in together and she tried running my life."

Are you saying you did them because you loved her, and once you moved into together, you didn't do them any more because you didn't love her?

Hmmm... it's not that I didn't love her as much. I just started judging her and deemed her unworthy of the extra attention. Counter-productive considering if I had kept doing them it may have helped build our relationship. I wasn't ready for any of her issues. I thought I was, but got in way over my head.

"Any suggestions?" You have all the suggestions...writing to her, singing to her...you keep saying what you can't/won't do because...of fear. Why not stick to what she wants, what you are fully capable of, and stop discounting each suggestion. Each time you ask for suggestions and knock them off, one by one, then I feel duped and a bit betrayed. You know what you can do, what you can but won't, and can use my suggestions to find yours. I won't do it for you. Get the darn guts to sing to your wife.

She's made fun of me before when I sang. I'd have to work up to that. Am I putting in can'ts where won'ts belong? I haven't meant to.

I don't mean to make light of each of your suggestions. I can appreciate the time, effort and sincerity in each one of them. You sometimes suggest things I am not ready for right now. I've been building up my courage and self esteem, trying to free myself from this crappy half-life I've been living. Some of the things you say I should do make me feel like I'm stepping further out on a limb than I feel comfortable w/. They wuite literally scare the bejeebus out of me and I would almost rather die than think about taking tham into consideration. It's like I'm being counter-productive if I do them because of how I view her attitude right now. I'm stuck in patterns that I haven't escaped yet. Stuck w/ feelings that I won't control because of those feelings. I want our marriage to work more than I want to live sometimes... that's a pretty strong feeling. Probably an insane one at that. I'm a "big wuss". I'd rather be honest w/ you and tell you I won't do them because I'm not ready than give you some song and dance. I hope it doesn't seem like I've been doing the latter? I appreciate every snipit of info you have for me. The biggest issue I have right now is my drive to make this work above all else, my fear that it won't work and my fear that I'm going to traumatized if it doesn't. I don't know how to escape it, and it's eating me up. Giving up feels like my only option sometimes. Like not caring anymore will take away the hurt, the fear. give me a frsh start. I'm living in fantasy sometimes. I'm still not sleeping, I still can't eat sometimes, I'm still losing weight. Everyone I know tells me I look worse for wear. Some are nicer than others. I'm letting this eat me alive. <:O( The rest of my life seems great. It's this one thing that is doing me in.

I did Karaoke in '03 for the first time. I know that strangled feeling. I was in an A, though, and sang to both OM and BH...how sweet. When I as plan Aing H a year later, I did it again, like a do-over, just for him. He admired me for it. Didn't get me what I wanted when I wanted it...in fact, I think it triggered him; he didn't say. However, when I thought of the amount of pain I was in, what I was going through (that I created myself, my part), it was easier than before, knowing that if all my fears were realized and they called in the voice police, boo'd and hauled me bodily off the stage...I could laugh, for that embarrassment wouldn't have compared to losing my marriage.

:O) I used to be in chorus. That was easy, unless I was up front. I don't like attention. I don't like feeling that I'm being picked apart and have to stand there and face it. I feel like that if I were to sing to her right now, she would ridicule me. It feels like she has no respect for me at all right now and is humiliating me on purpose... I just had a relization. I won't do these things because I'm not seeing that they are having any impact on me fulfilling my goal right now. Ive been looking for tangible results, guarantees if you will, to show me that my exposing myself to her is having a positive impact. I'm afraid of humiliating myself, only to have nothing to show for it when the dust settles. I am truly my own worst enemy.
All these feelings... cripes. It's all about fear. It's what I've been basing my life on. If I do "A", how afraid will it make me? How about "B"?


You do what is reasonable to you. If you have unreasonable fears, they are understandable, but not acceptable, comprende?

Comprende. I'm so dead set against change. Against my world being tampered w/. Everything is reasoning w/ me. I want life to be fair, when it's not going to be. I've been afraid for so long, I don't know how to stop. Every decision seems to be made, or not made, out of fear. I can't even order food at a restaraunt because I'm afraid of change, but want to break out of that mold. Out comes the inner struglle every time I look at a menu. I value others opinions over all sometimes. I need to get out of this habit. I'm realizing that starting a new life for myself, w/ or w/out someone else is not the answer. If I go it alone, I'm just avoiding the issues. If I have at it w/ someone who won't judge me, I'll only feel comfortable because I'll feel like they accept me. Not because I'm living my life free of judgement and control. Cripes. I've got to find a way around this. I'm desperate to get my life back w/ DD and WW because I'm afraid of what life will be like w/out them.

What do I do??? <:O(

Difference between acting from emotions and acting from beliefs...you act from your fears here:

"I want to make the full commitment, but haven't been able to overcome some of those fears that I have of her and our future."

Which gets you this:
"My priorities seem to be skewed by illogical repsonses to outside stimuli."

Here's how acting from beliefs look:
"I choose to fully commit to my marriage, though I am fearful of her and our future. My priorities are my marriage, my wife and my daughter."

Plan A is not a doormat. Exposure is not revenge. You said your WW viewed it as a threat...and it was. Own this. You threatened to expose unless she did what you wanted. Your intent to expose now is to bring truth to light, regardless of what she chooses. She has an A, you choose to expose. Living in truth has to matter to you. If you have a payoff in the secrecy, then truth won't matter.

That's what I'm trying to avoid. Feeling like I'm trying to achieve some sort of payoff here. I want to do what's going to help, not what is going to alleviate some mixed up feeling I have right now. I'm so caught up in feelings that I'm defeating myself. Fear is killing me. I need to stop being afraid. Seriously. I've let my fear get so far out of control I've stopped living my life. I need to make a move, and then another, and another. I've got to take the time to think about this. I feel like I don't have time though. I'm being pulled in every direction right now. I have to work here, work at home, spend time w/ DD, deal w/ WW when she's home. I need a break. This place is my only relief. The only time I have to actually think any of this out. I need to take a big leap. One that I have to force myself to take that seems completely unreasonable.

"Marriage to me is a commitment not to be taken lightly."
But you took it lightly, at times, pre-A. I hear you saying you didn't know how fragile this serious commitment was...it took you long enough to conquer your fear to get married, you thought that was the hard part. So, now you know.

Did I take it lightly? or was I just afriad that I couldn't live up to my WW's and my own expectations? Everything w/ me seems to be about fear.

thanx. See you tomorrow. :O)


More later...

LA

I was thinking of you on my way to a meeting...and I wondered...

Have you owned your A entirely, to you and your WW? Did you get to each tiny part of your choice, how you make resentment in yourself and what you learned from all of it?

I've written her several lengthy letters detailing to her my intentions, actions and feelings. Told her that the phone calls were more or less a distraction, and that I wasn't discussing any of our marrital problems w/ OW. I've told her that I said that I had feelings for OW because I was having a meltdown and felt pressured into making decisions I wasn't ready to make. I've told her that I wasn't ok w/ leaving, but rather felt like I didn't deserve to be there as I wasn't living up to my own expectations as a husband and a father. I've told her that I said things about OW that I shouldn't have in reagrds living w/ her or this and that because I was doing whatever it took to make her angry w/ me so she wouldn't be sad "when" I left. I was totally messed up. You know, one thing I don't think she has looked at is that at no point did I ever stop telling her that I love her? I think maybe I should write her another letter, reclarifying everything and telling her exactly what I've learned from all of this. I don't think I did such a hot job of describing everything to her before. I was pretty emotional each time I wrote to her, and didn't get into great detail because I wanted to finish the letters before she got home from work each night.


This could matter a lot, Inf. This would be a love letter worth having. No frilly words, all ownership, knowledge and understanding and forgiving choices.

She and I were talking again today. She told me that she is still angry w/ me, that she doesn't want me dead or hurt, but is "Meh" toward me right now. She said she wants me to leave so that she can see if she likes life w/out me... for all she knows she'll hate it, but she wants the opportunity to find out. She said that I should have moved out before because my staying months past her original request has made things worse. She said she wants to make changes in her life.

I told her that I can't see myself (happy) w/out them for even a minute, and that she can do whatever she wants w/ her life while I'm there. She got p*ssy and said she doesn't need my permission. I told her that I understood that, but just wanted her to know that I would support her in whatever she decides to do and would help her if she needed it. She asked me if I'm going to want to be there when she's seeing OM every other day. (She's been throwing OM in my face ALOT more lately). I slipped. Told her that I can appreciate that she feels that she can talk to OM, and that he has been there for her, but don't want her to ever have anything to do w/ OM again. (I mean, I can appreciate those things... OW did the same for me, and it did help sometimes and others it didn't as far as taking a break from "reality" went... or was I just running from one fantasy to another?). However, I really don't want her to have anything to do w/ OM ever again. Maybe I need to stop opening my mouth. I was just trying to be honest. She said she thinks I already have prospects lined up for when I'm out the door. I told her that I don't, and haven't given it any thought and that the only thing I can think about is working this out (which I suppose is true, because when I think otherwise it's because of fleeting feelings that are untrue to how I really feel). She said she was kind of angry that this all happened, but kind of not. She said that she's angry because I messed up her life, but at the same time if I had had this episode later it could have been worse and she could have been hurt. I told her that I love her several times, and that I really don't want it to come down to me leaving. I made it pretty clear that I have no intentions of trying to control her and will support her in whatever she chooses to do w/ her life.

Have you felt around that sore tooth...the one that says "How can she do this to me when she knows it hurts this much on this end?"

That's the thing. I've been looking at this w/ a warped perspective. I keep "feeling" this as... "Ok, I did this, this and this. I could never have left, or been w/ someone else. I was unusually mean and thoughtless, but still told her I loved her and did other things w/ her to let her know I still cared. So, why is she is taking this so much further than I did? How can she do this to me when I have made it clear that I wouldn't have done it to her? I understand her thoughts and feelings, but can't accept that she has them."

I'm thinking of your doing and then undoing; reasoning and then unreasoning...wondered if this was at the base of it. Your trying to determine what kind of life you will have if you stay or go...all over again. You did that before.

I did do it before and I was going crazy at the time. The thought of leaving was different before because all I could think about was how I needed change in my life because I wasn't living it the best way I knew how for me or them, and that if I stayed everything would be the same. How forsaking everything I had would be my chance at redemption. Now, it's like I've been having to reinventing the wheel. Everything I had is what I want, but WW has taken my "running shoes" and is putting so much more wear on them than I did. Sometimes, lately, it kills me because I never stopped caring, but it seems like she has. I want her to be able to understand the pain, anger, depression and frustration I went through every day, and how it was all because I had some issues w/ myself. Not w/ her or our life together. I feel like if she understands that, and can accept it, she'll be able to forgive me and will take me back. At no point have I truly thought that I didn't want this anymore. I keep "feeling" like I don't. Real pain. I need to start thinking my way through this more. I have a hard time discerning thoughts from feelings sometimes. Didn't you tell me to start writing down the things going through my head, and then rereading them for the purpose of distinguishing the difference and understanding them? I wish the days were longer. <:O)

I guess what this comes down to is that I haven't come to terms w/ our seperate parts in all of this. I'm so angry at myself for not handling my issues in a different way that I want to scream. I feel like I caused all of this, and until she takes me back I can't forgive myself. I thought I had, but I guess not. <:O( I want to, but feel like getting our lives (together) back on track is the only way I'll be able get past this. I've been blaming her, blaming me... because I haven't come to terms w/ my actions.



Your wife felt devastation, replaced, attacked and erased by your actions last year. The marriage had underlying disrespect and abuse in it, which it still does, but you made that choice. She is making this one.

I know. I feel all the same things. I haven't worked all of this out for myself yet. I feel like I'm putting it off because I'm waiting to see how things turn out. I'm basically telling myself to wait so I can feel my way through the situation instead of thinking about it now. Bummer. I'm still "feeling" instead of "thinking" left and right. I can see that alot in this post.

See, I thought that helped me try to save my marriage...knowing how much pain I caused by being in it. Really didn't. Not entirely--but it got me through the first three months of Plan A because I deserved that pain. The rest of the way was because I knew it was my road to self-redemption. Guess which way was more honest and true?

... Here's my truth. I find my past actions so horrendous that I can't accept having done them. I'm not trying because I've put my entire life on hold so I can dedicate myself solely to fixing our marriage. I want to free myself from this half-life I've chosen to live, but want the marriage to work too. I feel like the marriage is my redemption, my salvation, my chance to prove to myself and the world that I'm better than the other me that was a selfish, rotten miserable jerk all the time.

Where I left off...

Marriage took a lot of guts for you to do...I can relate to that. Own that they were your fears--they weren't your wife fears, so she doesn't have to do anything...take it as seriously, heavily or lightly as you. You're seperate. Equal. With your own stuff and stuff in the marriage.

I need to get past the idea that making our marriage work is the final step to setting me free.

I went to see Jodi Picoult. She just released "The Tenth Circle" and it debuted at #2 on NY Bestseller list. If it wasn't for Da Vinci Code, she woulda been #1. I consider it #1. She rocks. Only recently picked up her books, about seven months ago. She's a cross-gendre writer...a mix of contemporary women's lit, with suspense, courtroom, and reality thriller--brings you to stuff that scares you from the inside out. Yeah, I wanna write like that.

I read Terry Goodkind. In particular the "Sword of Truth" series. I get off on medieval fantasy. Enchanted weapons, magic, monsters, exploration, journeys, romance (yes, romance), suspense. I prefer medieval fantasy over sci-fi. Science is too logical for me. I like having that element of the unknown. This is why I prefer Star Wars over Star Trek. Plus I have this whole swords over guns thing going on too. There are deep reasons behind that, but I won't get into it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is nothing about your writing that isn't real, Inf. Your voice is yours...no one else has yours. Don't do others' voices. Do your own. Write out that love letter packed with truth. Soon. Like yesterday. Get down your truths, all that you've realized, and do not think for one minute of how WW will/won't/would/could/shouldn't react. Do it to be clean--the true version of you that you're living now. No manipulation. Intimacy like a pledge, Inf.

I will. :O)

You can do it. You are doing it.

I suppose I am. <:O) I I want to start not making things so much more difficult than they have to be. I'm very in touch w/ my feelings I guess. It's like I keep them at the ready, kind of like keeping a hand at my side in case I need to draw my "pistol" Someone looks at me funny, and I'm firing rounds until the cows come home. I like Western Fantasy too. I love RPG's. One of my favorite's was Werewolf: Wild West by White Wolf (the best will always be D&D or AD&D). Crazy gadgets, gun fights, lawlessness w/ a touch of fantasy via werewolves and some tribal magic mixed in.

:O)

LA

I've got an old concern, Inf...how will you know 'til you get there? (About MC, life, the universe and everything.)

Gee, didn't see that one coming? :OD I know. I've been letting the morning conv. between WW and I get to me off and on all day.

Do you think that I'm too reliant on you? This place? I've posted pages and pages here, and seem to be having the same inner conflicts over and over again. It seems I may have hit an impass. It looks to me like I haven't made any progress w/ the marriage, and WW may only that much closer to OM and removing me from the premises. Is it too late for Plan A?

Enough of that. I'm just looking to the future again. <:O)

You don't rely on a guru...you question, clarify, discern and choose what you get out of MC. You gotta trust God to bring you to and through; and yourself to say, "Hey, wait a minute...you believe in open marriages?" LOL.

Heh. :O) Yeah, that does sound kind of mental. WW recently told me that she thought I was desperate for wanting to be able to forgive her for things she may/may not do w/ OM. It's like... she's doing everything right now that I should be doing, only for all the wrong reasons. Maybe I really am crazy? <:OD

What others think, they think, Inf. You can't control that with your choices or actions. You just can't. If you know you are being O&H, straight from your heart, then what others' think will be just that...what they think. Share your fears..."I am so afraid of getting a bad counselor. This means everything to me and I fear not getting the help we need."

It was just a thought based on a feeling. It's not like I would not go out of fear of not knowing it will help. Although, I sure do make alot of other decisions based on that. Heh. Yeah, I'm just stewing on our talk this morning.

She loves you, Inf. You're her touchstone and within her inner circle. She treats you as badly as herself...and as well. Part of the rollercoaster ride. She loves the only way she knows how...like she was taught...and doesn't know there are other ways to love. She will. God's reaching for her as hard as he is for you.

Do you really think she does? I think she might. I think she might move on despite it too.

I'm listening to XO by Fall Out Boy. I don't know anything about your personal interests other than your love for words. The song is just amazing. I don't even try to figure out the meaning of lyrics to songs alot of times. It's the sound composition that intrigues me. I so need to learn to play an instrument. I'm putting that on my to-do list right now...

You're right, Inf...get there (MC) and then worry. Until you're there, the mental contortions are pointless, aren't they?

Yes. Yes they are. :O)

And thanks for promising to do homework and take your life seriously within your power. It is, was and will be. Amazing how we humans can know that...and then not know it at all, huh?

It is amazing. If it wasn't kicking me in the butt right now it'd be even cooler. ;O) I'll get on the hw. It's not like I've been putting it off. I just didn't think I was ready to take on the task w/out coming up w/ tainted results.

Ecellent song! You have to crank it up loud to get the full effect. I think that about every song though. :OD Hence Tinitus. anyway.

We be complicated creatures.

More than we need to be even... :O)

"that I wasn't discussing any of our marrital problems w/ OW." This doesn't sound like ownership. You're assuming this would bother your wife the most. Maybe not. What bothered her the most might be that you didn't ****** and moan about your life, but that you shared with OW all those thoughts and feelings you didn't share with wife. Deprivation. Rejection. Ring a bell?

Well. She's told me that she had a problem w/ me sharing that kind of info w/ OW. The real root of the issue seems to be that I didn't come to her. Obvious one. She doesn't seem to either accept or understand that I had reasons for not doing it. They may not have been valid, or even sane for that matter but I had them. Just like she has her reasons for doing what she does now.

I was afraid to come to her. She's always griped at me for not being able to make my own choices and live w/ the consequences. For feeling like I was stuck in a rut and couldn't get myself out. She never understood. We always fear what we don't understand. I said something to her at one point that had alot of significance to me at the time. It was when I started coming down from my meltdown... I told her that I was angry at everyone around me for not seeing that I had a serious problem that I couldn't fix myself, and for them not trying to do more to help me get past it. Especially her. I didn't understand how everyone I knew could just let it go when they knew what kind of person I was. Just now it dawned on me. Maybe they really don't know who I am. They know Mr. Pleaser, but they don't know me. I don't even think WW has known who I truly am. Heck, maybe I don't even know. That's what this is all about right? :O) WW must be pretty scared to come back to me. The abuse, not knowing who I really am, the lies, the OW. She's running for her life, scared out of her mind isn't she? She's scared, angry, hurt... Sucky. I really love her. I need to really get it in gear.


I think a new letter, complete with only "I" statements and describing your feeling of entitlement, resentment and your lack of respect would be a solid step you could take for you and for her.

Entitlement? haven't been clear on that one. resentment? for past actions/inactions? lack of respect for myself and her makes sense enough.

" and that she can do whatever she wants w/ her life while I'm there." Can you see how much "I" statements really change communication? If you had said, "I respect you make your own choices, WW." Which is what you thought you were conveying, but she got upset because again, you are telling her she has permission...that was normal for you before you learned differently. Same with helping...the fixer in you is an abuser that must stop. Don't offer to help her with anything in her life...she is fully competent and telling her you're there to help her is a DJ. In marriages, we share lives. You are there to share yours with hers and the DD you've both created (dear daughter...I think you asked what DD was before and I don't know if I told you).

I've known what DD was for quite some time? Hmm. I keep thinking that I'm saying the right things. I thought offering help was a pretty nice thing to do. Didn't stop to think that she may not want it, and if she did she's ask for it. Isn't it impolite not to offer though? I guess it's situational isn't it... We're past being polite. :O)

Sharing is not helping...literally sharing presence, yourself, not fixing/pleasing. See how important it is to really change your belief that you earn love...by fixing/pleasing...instead of being...being present is enough. Until you learn that, you'll feel compelled to earn love, approval, acceptance, admiration and appreciation. You are a human being, not a human doing.

That one went right over my head at first. I thought I was being nice when I offered assitance if needed. Instead I was actually trying to get her to think she needed me there. Yowza. I had no idea. Mind blowing stuff.

You did really well in your honesty about not wanting OM to have any part of your lives. This statement concerned me greatly: "OW did the same for me, and it did help sometimes" as you said, with a break from reality. That's not owning that your OW did absolutely nothing for you except break apart your marriage. She did. You did. Own that. You are the one who was intimate with her. You did. She was garbage, no integrity, and was using you in her own fantasy break. Without this knowledge, willingness to set it down in this way inside yourself, your marriage is lost. I'm sorry. It is true.

Good lord! Ok. Yeah I definitely haven't been owning that one. For any number of reasons that I don't agree w/ when I'm thinking rationally. WW has said the same thing to me multiple times. I still didn't get it apparently. There's Mr. Pleaser, telling her that it's ok that she can talk to him to promote her fantasy, and that he has been there for her to help it along just as long as she understands that I'm angry. I've caught myself downplaying the incident because I know it's what caused this mess. I'm such a pleaser. Blech! I promise I won't do it again.


Everything you feel about OM, your wife feels about OW. Everything that kicks, pinches, bites and slices in you, did the same in her. Know that. Own that. Do not back away from those choices.

Yeah. Have you ever seen that .GIF file...? The one where the guy bangs his head on his keyboard into a bloody pulp. That's me, right now.

Until you do, you won't know why your WW wanted to jump your bones over the weekend and then pulled up short, was angry, hurt, confused and lost. You won't get it until you get it, Inf. It's important.

I get it. It's no different than me wanting to return the favor, but feeling violated every time I think about her w/ him. I have a feeling I'm going to make some more progress today. I just have to make sure I don't forget the lesson. I need to get on that journal/record ASAP.

Is that why I'm so willing to forgive her for what she is doing? because I haven't really taken ownership for my past actions? As troublesome as that sounds, it would make sense to me right now.


You have caused tremendous pain. You are experiencing it in return. There's a reason why we both have had this same experience...I believe our marriages were enmeshed so far that this was the only way we would wake up to our own power, control freakishness and tit for tat habits (living from feelings not beliefs), it was God's way back in. Honestly.

No doubt. I look at things now, and I believe that I would have been this way w/ anyone. Finding someone that gave me my way all the time wouldn't have been a solution. No reason to own my choices then. That would have been the ultimate fantasy. I'm glad I found you here. <:O)

I hope my marriage working is part of God's plan? I don't pray for it anymore though. Just for strength for me and for others.


I know you're strong enough, smart enough and HONEST enough to get this. By virtue of your solace in a control fantasy, like me, know that we do that because we believe we have no power at all. By facing the destruction we do in others with our choices, we finally get where human power lays...inside, built-in by creation, real and unchangeable. This was how it was for me. Put my WH's actions in a different light, not as I deserved it, but that I knew it. He was as capable as I was...he had to face his controlling ways, too (which I see in your WW), and know he could devastate, also. That he mattered, was signficant by his being alone.

A concern for me. That she'll never face her controlling ways. It's always been there, and she accepts it as part of her. Only she calls it truth and honesty.

"because I was doing whatever it took to make her angry w/ me so she wouldn't be sad "when" I left." Sound like what your WW is doing to you now?

I don't know. Kind of. If it is, she is going to some pretty awful extremes. Not telling me she loves me, keeping hidden pictures, going out w/ him and taking DD (which she supposedly hasn't done in some time and won't after I'm gone for some time), talking w/ him and sharing all of her most personal feelings and thoughts. That comment from my Mom about my sister saying WW looked like a "deer in the headlights" when she pulled up and saw them talking says it all IMO. She sounds like she really knows what she wants when she tells me these things. She sounds perfectly rational. I didn't always. Saying I'd still come there and take care of her... telling her I love her. She sounds like she only wants to be friends w/ me and is ready for a new life. It's eerily convincing. There are moments when she gives me cause to have my doubts about what she wants, but I'm not sure that I'm reading them right. I think she might be more afraid of being alone than she is afraid of not being w/ me. What do you think? or have you already told me. I keep thinking that if everyone saw the way she is w/ me, compared to the way she is around everyone else taht they'd sing a different tune. Especially the way she is around him. I've seen it first hand. One time I saw it, back when I didn't care what she did w/ him and I thought for a moment "OMG... I wish I could make her that happy."
It makes me sick now.

Enmeshed lives depend on blame, fault...craving to be blameless so that we can be accepted; not be wrong, screw ups or defective. We aren't, but we see ourselves this way. We have beliefs that are old and unreasonable, same with fears, and we make choices from them, making mistakes. We are not mistakes, we are not born wrong and we screw up but are NOT screw ups.

Yeah, to err is human. Not... To human is err. or something like that.


No one is...we can feel/believe we are, yet we are not.



"Maybe I need to stop opening my mouth." Well, that's how you got into your A...so would that be reasonable to do, or a reaction to not getting the results you want?


I guess not. I just need to stop saying things that are counter productive. <:O)

"She said she thinks I already have prospects lined up for when I'm out the door." She doesn't trust you to love her--believes you will betray her again, quickly, without looking back. Half of that is her, half is your part. Lay out how you want to rebuild her trust in this love letter. Transparency, O&H, discovering your fears give you the urge to hide, withdraw, coil up...because you do love her tremendously and fear exactly what is now the state of your marriage...rejection. You will not allow your fear to get in the way of your new standards.

My other letters felt incomplete. This one may take a while.

Then you have to live that letter and prove it, of course.

I know. Right now... Mr. Pleaser is telling me to say "Don't do as you please, but please as you do."

Why is she taking it so far when you didn't stop telling
her you loved her during your EA? Gee, Inf...just because you believed you loved her doesn't mean she did. You fulfilled her worst fear ever...abandonment. Going to someone else with your intimate self when she was your wife, your source, the one who has a right to you. You did that. That's not love...feels like rejection, being thrown away like kleenex. You can say ILY a thousand times and it won't be believed. At all. Love doesn't leave, doesn't cheat, doesn't replace. In her mind, you lied with each ILY.

That's straightforward enough. That's me, trying to control her feelings by saying she should feel the same way I do because what I say goes. Crap. You'd think I would have figured all of this out by now. :O)


Are you getting this now? There is no justification for either A...I'm not saying she deserves or you deserved. I am saying that you are half the marriage...you have influence. Choices matter. Can you not see better why she is so angry, jealous, confused, resentful, full of fear of you and frustrated? The letting go/not letting go...leave but don't leave...she wants to know how you could have done this to her.

She does want to know. I'm not sure she'll ever understand. She said she deosn't think she will. We fear what we don't understand. If she doesn't understand it, can she accept it? Is this whole thing doomed? ???

Tell her.

I'll write the letter. It's gonna take time. I just hope it's time I have.

Own it. She didn't cause, control or cure you of your A. You can't of hers. Lack of respect with entitlement, fueld by resentment. That's how you got there...lots of permissions to yourself to violate your own beliefs...excuse, rationalize and reason away tearing up what you love most.

See. Right there. "...your A." I haven't really been looking at it that way. More as someone to talk to. She doesn't see it that way. Son of a gun. She saw that I was in an EA and I just keep blowing the idea off. Denial? perspective? Smooth. Okay. Gotcha. I think Im ready to own it. Now I'll be worried about admitting it and her putting her own spin on it and running away. *groan*

Your wife is still there (in the WW) when she said "had this episode later it could have been worse and she could have been hurt." She is telling you that she is surviving your choices by believing she wasn't hurt by what you did, therefore, impervious and not reacting to that pain with her A or ditching the marriage. She wants to believe this desperately...because you triggered her lifelong problem with being defective, not good enough. Her part and your part...are you really seeing this now?

She meant physically hurt I think? That's the way I read it.
She does feel that I was the trigger to all of this. She's told me to just accept what I did, deal w/ it and move on. Like I'm the one that forced her to be this way and that I should accept that I made her this way and should just deal w/ it. Am I missing something here? You used some partial sentences there and I'm not sure I'm reading them right.


"when I have made it clear that I wouldn't have done it to her?" Clear to whom? You did it. You broke trust, intimacy and the enmeshment of your marriage. That's okay as long as you don't leave the wreckage? I don't understand.

I've been trying to absolve myself of responsibility for this mess. Blaming it on her, as I've tried to make amends for my actions and can't accept that a few good actions an heartfelt promises aren't enough to make it all better. Me wanting control out of fear. See, I don't even know I'm doing it. *frustration*

"and that if I stayed everything would be the same." See how this is your WW's fear, also? This is why Plan A saves marriages...proves commitment, awareness, knowledge...owns actions and beliefs, so the marriage CAN'T stay the same. This is a child's belief inside of us..."back to normal" "reverts" "same crap different day." You had it and she has it. Address this. Fear leads us into destruction by telling us we're safer there, the whole way. Just does. Learn from it. Don't live from it.

Yeah. I having trouble making any major changes to my life that I've wanted to do because she has all of my money and is crying poverty even though she's been spending it like it's going out of style lately. She's moving on w/out me and using me to do it. Arrrrggghhh!!! :OI

See why MC/IC is so important? Complicated creatures...need a guide who isn't afraid.

Gotcha. I've ben worried that we are only going to get out of it what we want, and WW doesn't want what I want right now. Last thing I need is a guide that is going to spoon feed it to her. I want one that is going to be smart and fair. that can deal w./ our specific situation. To me the whole point in going is to fix the marriage, not bury it.



"and until she takes me back I can't forgive myself." One has nothing to do with the other, just feels like it. Your self-honesty is growing. Ponder this. You wronged your wife, yourself and God. Who's forgiveness matters? Who do you most need forgiveness from? Which of those three are you in control of?

Well, I can't seem to control myself or WW. God? Do I control God?

Didn't think so.

I'm worried that I'm going to accept being miserable because it will allow me to hold on to what I had if I no longer have it. That's seemed like an acceptable choice sometimes.

Distinguishing beliefs from feelings...here's one "feel like I'm putting it off because I'm waiting to see how things turn out." This isn't a feeling, it is a belief. What you feel are emotions...list them, all you know (there are like 150 or something of them)...the rest are beliefs. You believe that you're putting off really getting to the pain of owning your stuff until you see if you can get your marriage back, then it would be worth it. If not, why go into that dark, horrible cave full of jagged edges and very large spiders? Because you're worth it. You are worth not running from, covering over for or caving in to. You just are.

150? I can think of 5? Maybe? and that's counting fear like 4 times... Wow. :O) That's just it, I haven't quite found my full self worth yet. I'm still judging myself according to whether or not this all works out. This marriage is a blessing and a curse. :O)

You have leftover tangles of entitlement, Inf. They are sneaky devils...read this: "I'm not trying because I've put my entire life on hold so I can dedicate myself solely to fixing our marriage." How noble and how very untrue. You don't have a bumper sticker saying, "I'd rather be fixing my marriage" do you?

Do you know where I can get one? I might actually be in the market for one of those bad boys. Seriously though, I haven't done a single thing in the last several weeks w/out asking myself if it's good for the marriage first. I've become obsessed. Sleeping, eating, talking, walking... next it'll be breathing. Seems like I completely gave up control over myself around the time I completely gave up anger.

This is your life. Nothing is on hold at all. Your resentment creates that little barrier, igniting the kid in you, with that sentiment, "Ah, do I have to?" while they trudge towards their toys to pick them up, with a big sigh of resignation. See, your wife is your life, your marriage is something you didn't know was seperate, for you to honor seperately from your wife's actions...now you know.

I know, but will I do anything about it? I'd better, or I'm gojng to be ticked at myself later.


This is your life, entirely...what you value most. Where you connect, invest yourself and once, stayed safe. That's all gone right now, yet, still there, isn't it? Same value, not dependent on current state or actions by others, is it?

I'm starting to think that God is going to teach me another valuable life lesson by allowing my marriage to go by the wayside. Maybe it's the only way I'm going to complete this process?

"so horrendous that I can't accept having done them." I know this well, felt it, still flash to it...what you have done cannot make you a bad person. All the good you have done cannot make you a good person. You are a person who has made horrendous and terrific choices. You remain a whole, complete, marvelously made human being. Same with your wife...accept her for who she is--you may judge her actions, yet, remember...you have to judge your actions first, right?

Gotcha. I need to stop being so hard on myself. It all falls back to me being obsessed w/ this marriage deal. The more I think about it, the worse it gets.


"I want to free myself from this half-life I've chosen to live, but want the marriage to work too. I feel like the marriage is my redemption, my salvation, my chance to prove to myself and the world that I'm better than the other me that was a selfish, rotten miserable jerk all the time."

Wow. I thought I was reading myself. You want to free yourself from your own belief of who you are (which is incorrect) and celebrate a marriage of two humans, full of intentional respect and acceptance. Two things you want for yourself which are not and have not been in your marriage. Makes sense now? Your fear of "getting back on track" to no respect or acceptance wants you to run...telling you that you've messed up and need to start over. Guarantee from me--you do that, give into acting from your fear, you'll recreate this all over again, no matter who you choose. Was my point with your OW...they don't matter--you do. Their reactions come in different packaging...same destruction when you don't really get respect/acceptance--no marriage can survive without it, you think?


I've come to that realization. I think I started "thinking" this post, then half way through or so started "feeling' it. I wish I could AIM you. Then you could slap some sense into me when I start straying from the formula.

And you can't have that in your marriage if you withhold it from yourself. "Selfish jerk" is a judgment...you allow yourself to do that to you--then you will do it to others...your wife and daughter. Oh, yeah, daughter, too.

Oh, I know. I judge DD sometimes. Catch myself and try to compensate.

Your emotions are information only...to be recognized, seen what emotion is behind another or in front of it; why, and where they come from in your beliefs. To act from them is like (warning--really bad analogy) walking across traffic...instead of when the light says to...the lights govern the traffic, but the cars feel real when they hit you. Of course you want to avoid being hit, run from, or stay out of their way...unless they are happy ones, right? Look at the signals, the lights to guide you.

To me, following emotions is like trying to walk through your house in the dark because you don't want to turn on the lights. You think you know the way, but eventually something is going to get broken. Why not just take the time to turn the lights on?

Better?

Man, that sucked. Best I could do. I'm only developing too, you know.

Now, now. Isn't that a Dj or something? >:OD

My older two sons are into that series, big medieval fans, along with the whole sword over gun stuff. Have to say the werewolves symbol might be interesting to look at more closely...talk about humans having no choice but to give into and follow their feelings, knowing their choices as destructive, and fighting them all the way.

I won't tell you that I've been big into the Hulk lately. The idea of being able to act fully on emotion w/ nothing stopping you and having complete, if temporary, release sounds pretty darn appealing.

If werewolves only could change when they changed their beliefs...well, then you'd have something, wouldn't you? Do you think you're alone? Aren't all tales, stories, have heros and villains acting because of their emotions, or seem to? Superman appeared to do it from his standards...yet he got angry, too, didn't he?

yeah. Supes used to be an old fave, now he seems boring.

Hmmm.

You're not alone at all. You are on a human journey, all your own, with many parts just like mine and some not.

:O)

You can do this. Redemption is to be travelled to three destinations...from yourself, your wife and your God. You are getting there. You are mystery to yourself worth exploring. You are safe to explore. Go from the premise that there is nothing so reprehensible in you that God can't love or others...because he made you, didn't he? He loved you before he made you, when you were just a vision in his eye...know this and relax. Yes, it's gonna hurt, and it will pass...so will the joy so strong it sings louder than a ringing in your ears...sings like pure light...and all the emotions inbetween.

I'm looking forward to it. Pain, hapiness and all. The wait is killing me.

See you tomorrow.:O)

LA

"Do you think that I'm too reliant on you? This place? I've posted pages and pages here, and seem to be having the same inner conflicts over and over again. It seems I may have hit an impass. It looks to me like I haven't made any progress w/ the marriage, and WW may only that much closer to OM and removing me from the premises. Is it too late for Plan A?"

Too reliant...hmmm...like a drug? Feels like OW all over again? Or is it your expectation that it would be fixed already, or that I can fix it? I have unreasonable beliefs like that in me...no judgment...do you?

I thought that for a moment yesterday. Like this was OW all over again. Only different conversation material. I've also thought that you could fix this for me too, and wonder why it hasn't been fixed yet. Apparently I do have those beliefs in me. I've been thinking sometimes. "If she makes me leave, it'll be easier because I won't be there w/ her." I realize now that I'm just fooling myself. I've been taking my being able to come home to her every day for granted. I'm so dead set against moving out that I sometimes have it in my head that it just isn't going to happen. Shielding mysefl from reality perhaps?

A real Plan A...one full of O&H, exposure, changes and dedication...how can it be too late for that?

More happened last night. Some beneficial, some seriously counter productive. I don't know what to make of it, other than something you told me yesterday... I still look to the future more than I should be.

As for your WW seeing you as deperate that you're trying to forgive her stuff...I can see that. You aren't allowed to forgive her anything until she asks for it. Allowed? Yeah. If you do it anyway, then you betray yourself. Later, years later, if she doesn't ask you and you two split, then you can forgive her, you and God for yourself. Nowhere near forgiving when it is ongoing. Usually, saying you forgive quickly is a sign you want forgiveness FROM her.

Thinking on it... I want desperately to forgive her because
A) If I don't I feel like there's something there that's keeping me from loving her completely.
B) If I forgive her it indicates to me that she made a mistake that she may regret. I look at her regret as a symbol that depicts her need for me.

You're right about that last part too. I keep thinking taht if she forgives me then she'll take me back. I don't dare ask her forgiveness right now. I'm afraid she'll deny it, or give it but not take me back. If she can forgive me, but not take me back then to me that'll be a sign that she can move on and won't ever want to be w/ me again.

Help me out with "It's like... she's doing everything right now that I should be doing, only for all the wrong reasons. Maybe I really am crazy? <:OD" I dunno. I don't understand this part at all?

Yeah, I totally felt my way through that one. I was thinking... "She's changing her life, owning her actions, making her own choices..." Disregard that one. She's been judging me, disrespecting me, having an A, etc...

"We be complicated creatures.

More than we need to be even... :O)"

Highlighting this as an inner child belief. We want it simple, direct, constant, easy...you want exact steps to take, words to say, thoughts to have...know that when you have these answers, that you are in your inner child space, not your adult. Adult place has seen how complex water is...amazing, complicated simplicity. Simplicity really doesn't exist. Adults break down the complex for the child, giving the child the belief there is simple. When we desire it, we're not being in our adult knowledge. No bash...more awareness for ya.

Got it. I am like a big kid sometimes. I want everything to be easier. I get sick of feelling like I have to struggle through life all the time. only feel that way because of my choices though.

Same for listening for absolutes...if it is only one way or the other, you're not in a place to make a choice...there are many alternatives, degrees, etc. in between the ways.

yeah. Nothing is ever black and white. WW keeps telling me there are no guarantees. Something I'd do well to remember.

"She doesn't seem to either accept or understand that I had reasons for not doing it. They may not have been valid, or even sane for that matter but I had them. Just like she has her reasons for doing what she does now." Now we're getting to the meat of the issue, Inf...

What your wife accepted or didn't is hers...not yours. I asked you to tell me what allowed you to stomp the crap out of your wife's heart? She could have been nagging, crying, complaining and abusing you up until the second that YOU CHOSE to do that...open up and be vulnerable to another woman who wasn't your wife. Your wife cannot make you do anything...all your choice. The way life works.

I've told her several times recently that I can understand the postion she's in right now to an extent because I was in almost the exact same boat. I've explained some of how I felt to her, and she told me that I should be able to understand why she is doing the things she is. I told her I can understand some of them, but don't agree w/ them. Work sucked, I kept getting pinned for things that weren't my fault and getting put on "action plans" for it. I felt like I was stuck in the job w/ no choice. I was constanlty worried about money because I couldn't ever afford to do anything that I enjoyed in life. I had to wait until my B-Day and Chistmas to get anything I wanted because I had to ask for them as gifts. I was grasping at material things to fill a void. WW was never there. She worked all the time. When she was home, she was always too busy or tired to spend time w/ me. When she did want to, I was either too tired or too busy resenting her for not doing things w/ me when I wanted to do them. I blamed her for things like my not having gone to school and getting a better paying job. She didn't like to spend time at w/ my family... really at all. Holidays would come up, and she would gripe until it was time to leave and then find reasons to have to leave early. I'd go by myself, but then that would be less time to spend w/ her. She didn't trust me enough not to hide things from me all the time. She told her friend Eric from High School things she should have told me for years. I always felt excluded, or like there was some big secret between them that I wasn't privy to when he was around. Then she would tell me that she considered it lying when I kept things from her. She didn't trust me enough for years to be around certain females, but expected me to allow her to do whatever w/ whomever. Lots of things, just built up over time. I did most everything she asked, gave her my paycheck, took care of her for years, loved her the best I knew how (given my not being myself) and just felt like I wasn't being treated w/ respect or appreciation. Alot of it was me. I didn't make my own choices, and DJ'ed by not letting her know how I felt in a respectful manner.


Now that you're in her shoes, do you see that? Really get this? Guess what...a lot of your reasons for not being open and honest with your wife were bogus. They were. They were resentments you had, you created for your own payoff...not her. Your part. She may not have been safe, but you weren't trustworthy, O&H, didn't have a code to choose from other than if it feels good do it...and if it doesn't, don't.

I can see that blatantly now.

You didn't.

No I didn't.

You know why I felt that way around her and Eric? I think you do. She wasn't herself around me. She was w/ him. She is w/ OM. I think?

You chose to do that though you made a tough, hard to get to vow to your wife that you wouldn't.

I did promise her I wouldn't do it. I found every excuse under the sone to break that vow. I was being dishonest to both of us.

Relating to that letter you're writing? Own that as well. I withheld, broke my vow to you to cherish, to honor...which I now know means with my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, choices, limits, desires, values, talents and love. I believed you could make me happy, hurt me, anger me...when those are my feelings and you can't cause, control or cure them. I'm discovering my freedom, responsibility and love. I am laying down my perception that you punish me when I hurt you and vice versa. I won't permit myself to be disrespectful in that way anymore. To you, our marriage, our daughter or anyone."

Good stuff. Sounds liberating. I really want to be free of all of this.

When you rewrote that paragraph a few posts back...this was where I was going...

I see that. Choices. You always have a choice. I need to own that. None of this back and forth stuff.

You chose not to share with your wife...no reasons for not doing so...choice.

No reasons. Excuses. Justifications.

That's ownership. The other shoves the responsibility onto someone else...and leaves you no power. Helpless. Choiceless. A victim.

I've always looked at myself as a victim. Saves me from having to own up to all of the choices I've made that I haven't been proud of.

"She's always griped at me for not being able to make my own choices and live w/ the consequences." You call her truth griping? Have I told you anything different? Was I griping? See...I was a clean slate...no history, no accusations, attacks...and certainly, no opportunity for you to create resentment for me and hold it against me. Same with your OW, btw. Feel the beauty of that clean slate?

She always tried to shove it down my throat. It always made me feel like I had to make the choice I was debating on, or the one she would make. It was just me, not wanting to choose at all. wanting to be babied, have my hand held and told it would be ok. "I'm fragile, less than myself, don't break me."

Truth can be spoken by evil. Still makes it truth.

Yes, it does. There's irony for you.

You seem to own you didn't choose actions but reacted...led by your feelings, which you gave yourself permission to follow blindly, uninformed, no evaluation. You don't hear an attack because you shared that truth with me first. Maybe you didn't share your truth with your wife first and were considering it a gripe (beef, putdown, etc.) because she saw it and called you on it? Maybe you have a belief that says, "No one should judge me without knowing my truth."

That was so me. "Don't judge me, I've given my reasons and you just don't understand."

That's the old you, right? Not the new one.



You do share your truth with your wife and WW...after this statement, you wrote aloud and got to where you were going...you were still blaming others for owing you a fix, to point out to you how destructive you were being and get you to stop. Is that possible? If you are acting much like others around you, your wife included, why is it their responsibility...even capability...to see what you do not?

True. I need to let her know that my having blamed her for not helping me in the way I needed it was unreasonable. She did what she knew, and was being true to herself.

Respect. Acknowledge to yourself that you had to get here, to this moment, to get what you didn't get; see what you didn't see, and hear what you didn't hear. All of it may now look like it was in plain view, reach or hearing. It may have been. No way for you to have used that knowledge before you had the way to gain it.

I told her that last night, but then went on to say that this website has been the only thing getting me by. Untruth. That was me clinging to this place (you essentailly) like a security blanket. I've had other influence, including her. I've gotta stop feeling my way through conversations. There's that quick draw hand again. I half thought, then felt the rest.

You chose with what you knew then...now that you know more, you will chose better.

I'm getting there. Making obvious progress. :O)

All of us are in that boat, same ocean, same place. Human truth.

I love the ocean. Not so much boats though. I get sea sick in intense heat. Snorkeling! :OD I plan to stand at the front of the boat at some point and do the whole Titanic "King of the World" thing. :OD

As for why you aren't getting it all right now, instant mash potatoes cure...well, are you ready for it to be better or not be as bad? Are you ready for a change so enormous that you'll change your core beliefs? Or not, really, not yet...almost...

It feels bad right now. I'm not ready to find out it's not going to work. Not ready to accept that she owns part of that choice. 50/50. I see the truth in it, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to accept it.

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

The student isn't ready. He is too busy looking out the window, longing for someone to hand him control over his life so he doesn't have to take it for himself. <:O(

Your WW may believe she is running for her life...please don't believe it also. You are not so helpless as to have no power, nor so powerful as to make her do anything. Her choices. Respect that. No resentment. Accept she makes her choices, as well. Yours are yours.

I assume she's running out of fear so that I don't acknowledge her choice. Choice means willingness, fear means more chance for regret.

"Entitlement? haven't been clear on that one. resentment? for past actions/inactions?"

My theory on Mr. Pleaser (anybody, USA)...I please to get love, feel loved, be safe. What happens when I don't get that? I please/fix harder. Has to work...my only way. I don't get a thank you or feel loved...uh oh...my Giver gives out, soaked in sacrifice and expectation...in walks my Taker, taking over. Okay...no more sacrifice! Everybody clear the decks! I own this tub and I have tried, tried, tried to do my best...but no, wasn't good enough. I am owed. I am entitled to get my needs met because I've done everything I could to please, and am not being pleased/fixed in return.

That's me alright. Blech. so, the last ten years of our relationship means jack if I'm not owning the present? I think that's the right way to say it?

Balance between our Giver and Taker...(not allowing Giver to sacrifice and not allowing Taker to be owed), is the key to living a real life...not in the fantasy of how it should be, with all that friction and resentment when it isn't as it should be...and that righteous being right when expectations are met...like you can control the outcome of your own pleasing/disrespecting.

I griped about her getting a tatoo. I was against the idea because of certain beliefs that may have changed recently, but her having got one didn't affect me at all. Don't know where that Ex. came from. Didn't really have anything to do w/ anything in the disxcussion. More of a note for me.

No more sacrificing my beliefs. No more doing it and expecting a return. Let her live her life and i will live mine.

Have to go...more tomorrow...

LA