Ok,

Most of you know my situation. Wife and I are heading for divorce and living in the same home (horrible situation). She is as distant and cold as ever(occassionally she's ok). She is going on a weekend ski trip with some co-workers this weekend. I've been pretty good about accepting this (the divorce) is going to happen and that it probably should happen as long as my ww maintains the same boundaryless ideals and won't end contact with the other man. She is finally looking and/or talking about looking for another job, but only slightly. It's not active looking. She still claims no contact, but I'm nearly 80 to 90 % sure she's not telling the truth. Actually I think the OM is going on the trip this weekend. (I could just be paranoid).

Do you have any suggestions for how to save this marriage? Do you think at this stage it is still possible and what could or should I do to save the marriage?

GT, I honestly think that if you have any hope, it is to be found in moving on with the divorce. She is not going to change without a powerful motivator and that will not happen until you divorce her. She will not love you until she learns to respect you and that will never happen until you stop allowing her to run over you.

You have exhausted every avenue at your disposal, GT, and doing the same thing over and over and over again is going to avail you the same thing: NOTHING.

While this thread was not addressed to me GT I know your sitch. I have followed it. Sir, you're in an abusive marriage and the abuser refuses to change their ways. Look at it objectively. Look at yourself objectively.

Do you need to ask the question still?

Mel gives good advice, I second what she has to say. I wish you well...

GTO

I am rereading "love must be tough" by James Dobson. Poorly written (IMO) but a fantastic message.

What I would do if I were you is invest in MYSELF: get fit, dress WELL, go out with friends. Have a smile on your face. Don;t LB, but don;t say anything you don't need to. Also back off ANY affection, ILYs' etc. "Caring platonic" is what to aim for.

The message you will send is " baby, I love you, part of me always will, but I am attractive, smart, a real catch and life goes on. You want to fly ? Take a look the cage door: its open. You want some of me ? Well NC, transparency and working on this M is the initial cost of entry.Nobody's forcing you but I am worth a whole lot more than your meanness and disrespect, NO lie!".

Tell her the same, without cockiness, if she asks.

This strategy has two benefits:

1) It is a 'microwave' Plan A, where your WW gets to see what other women will see, not just the decent plan a'ing BS.
2) you get to develop a sense of self worth and a life outside your marriage.

Don;t actually flirt or hook up yet though. Its gonna be a while till you can do that without hurting yourself or somebody you hook up with.

And by the way - that method worked for me UP THE WAZOO.

You win either way THIS way dude.

All blessings.

and as usualy Mr. Pure also gives great advice....

I took his advice and did not even know him...!!

peace

I agree with B0b. And if there is any way you can go to Plan B, you certainly have nothing to lose and everything to gain at this point.

Your WW will not notice ANYTHING until cold hard reality actually does come crashing down around her. Unless and until that happens, it's all just an abstract concept. It's nothing real and therefore nothing for her to be worried about. That's why she's not. Worried, that is.

Mulan

GT, refresh my memory about who told you to get a divorce? Was it Dr. Harley or his son, Steve? What exactly did he say?

I spoke to Dr Harley during his radio show. I then spoke to Steve several times later. Steve did not agree with his dad's advise at the time. He felt it may come to that, but thought it might be a little premature.

He only spoke to my wife once and it didn't really help much. Steve did not recommend further exposure at her work, nor did he believe that I should have gone to plan b. In the last conversation he felt we were past plan b and the times before he didn't feel it would be effective in our situation.

GT, if SH agrees you are way past Plan B [I do too] then what did he suggest? Surely not an endless Plan A...

GTO - I don't disagree with what the other posters have offered.

I note that differences in advice between Steve H. and his Dad have been noted before. Dad tends to take a harder core MB line. Just more indication that this may be more art than science.

The divorce may not be avoidable. Planning for the worst, I suggest you take a parallel path to make sure you're set up for having a clear conscience assuming divorce takes place. Look ahead and be able to say that you did everything within your means to preserve the marriage. This will pay HUGE dividends in your future. Perhaps you have this all covered anyway by virtue of applying the MB principles.

JMHO

WAT

On the last call, he (SH) didn't have much to add. He said I probably needed to have a very straight forward conversation with her, non judgmental or argumentative and explain this is it. I love her, but I can not accept her behavior anymore and that I understand that she feels violated by my "spying". My goal is still to have a loving respectful marriage with her, but right now that is not happening. I had that conversation and her response was that I was not going to change.

So she's off parting for the weekend and I'm home with my daughter.

You explained that WHAT is it? OR WHAT? The issue isn't YOU changing, GT, but HER changing. She is the one who had the affair and is dishonest. How can you possibly change that? Isn't it time to accept that you CANNOT change her and accept her for who she is? She is a dishonest, disrespectful, SELFISH woman who refuses to treat you with respect. That is who she is and you cannot change that.

Can you accept her how she is and live in a marriage of disrespect with no love?

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Quote:
Can you accept her how she is and live in a marriage of disrespect with no love?
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No I don't believe I can accept that. It doesn't mean that I don't want or wish that I could have my wife back.

I've given this over to God now. The women in my Church's home group want to talk to her. They want me to go on the men's retreat next week and they will try and get her to meet them for prayer and a get together. They believe she is behaving like a four year old or at the very least a single 21 year old. I'm open to anything right now.

GT, do you think that God is going to come down and change her against her will? My friend, that is not how God works. He will change a person who wants to change, but he is not a cosmic puppeteer who changes people at your bidding against their will.

I very much agree that you need the help of God, but please be realistic here and don't use God to engage in yet more conflict avoiding. Instead, pray that he give you strength for true acceptance.

Then how about breaking down what you CAN do to accomplish this.

First of all list what hasn't worked...then cross them off your list, and stop doing them.

Then list what changes you can make to regain respect for yourself...to make yourself happy within yourself so that your happiness is not dependent on her, for as long as you believe your happiness is dependent on her you will put up with anything, no matter how unexceptable. And you will never have her respect.

Remember what is said, time and time again on this board (regarding your WW's changing) -

"people don't change until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of changing"

You may soon be at that place of having to change because your pain is too great (hopefully), and then she will have to change to keep you...or she will lose you(this is where her pain may be great enough to effect change in herself... or not).

This is your only hope at this point, given the length of time this has been going on, the way I see it.

Grove, NOTHING is going to change until you change what you will accept from others.

BINGO! weaver has nailed it dead on. GT, trying to change her is an exercise in futility. Not even God will do your bidding for you. You cannot change her! You can only change YOU.

Agreed. God works at the level of cause and not effect...meaning God will give you strength to change yourself, thereby changing your actions/feelings/beliefs, and these changes will effect out-ward changes in your sitch (life). [/list]

GT, have you ever read the book, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders by Dr. Harley? It is an excellent book that I am reading right now. A freeloader is someone who believes they have to do nothing whatsoever, except what feels natural at the moment, to maintain their relationship. They are just along for the free ride and have no investment in marriage. They won't lift a finger to work for anything because they really don't care. Thier partner can take it or leave it. This is the definition of your wife, GT.

A marriage to a freeloader will NEVER WORK. It will crash and burn from lack of care that eventually breeds hatred.

Now, can a freeloader be motivated to change? OH YES. Dr. Harley explains how he was a freeloader when he dated Joyce [his wife]. He was rude and thoughtless to her and felt she should like him for himself or she could take a hike. He wouldn't do a damn thing to please her or go out of his way. So...she DUMPED HIM! He was very surprised and decided then that she was worth the trouble. He grew into a Renter, and eventually a BUYER because she wouldn't tolerate anything less.

This is what you have to do, GT. You have to quit tolerating a freeloader. Give her the boot she so richly deserves and you may well be giving her the motivation she needs to grow into a BUYER. Because doing the same thing over and over and over and over again enables her to remain a FREELOADER in your relationship, GT.

Will you order this book: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6080_buyer.html

That book is an excellent read! I wish I had read back it when I was about 20...would have saved myself a bunch of unnecessary pain and wasted time.

Thanks everyone.

I feel like the only way I can really move forward and heal is for me to move out of the house. I called my attorney and he again advised me not to do that.

As a side note I ran into my wife's friend at dinner (the friend that was calling the OM for my wife). She was eating alone so I invited her to eat with me and my daughter.

She told me how she met the OM at an after work function that my wife invited her to. (My wife denied that he was there and continued the lie until now). She also said that she was calling the OM so the could meet.

Of course my wife denied that and said that she refused to talk about her past. AHHHHH I just need to get out of this mess and move on with my life! Of course that is easier said than done.