I could really use some insight here. I'm on my second marriage. I was married previously for 8 years which resulted in divorce due to his affair. He also confessed to having at least 8 flings while away on business throughout our whole marriage so you can see I have baggage with trust.

I've been married this time for almost 6 years. For the last three months I have gone sick with worry that my spouse is having an EA with a co-worker. Sometimes I see red flags and sometimes not. He will repeat stories of them gossiping about another worker or mentions her name from time to time. When I told him it bothered me he said that there is nothing there, I would just have to deal because he does have to work with her etc.

I end up feeling like a jealous paranoid women and I'm trying really hard to keep my feelings in check so I don't drive us nuts with worry or worse drive him towards her. Yet inside I feel all anxious and worried.

He has a company cell phone & laptop and they are secure to the max. He's a computer security specialist. So there is no way to see if he's being honest in regards to that area.

They also have a company wide private instant msg program and today he worked from home using it. We were having lunch when messages from her popped up. He wasn't hiding them but one message started to get a little too chummy for my comfort.

She was asking him about attending meetings, then she asked him how much was she getting paid to be his secretary and that it was much less stressful than her job. Then she wanted to know if he was going to make a goodbye party for another employee.

I asked him if they chatted a lot during the day and did it stay professional. I joked and said he should show me another example of their chats to lessen my worry (they autosave them) but he refused. He said "no because we do talk and I don't want you reading things into them"-- well of course with my history that just makes it so much worse. This of course snowballed into a heated discussion about me not trusting him and that he's tired of my questions etc.

Now this on top of other small things have really made me sad. His other behaviors are normal, nothing out of the blue in terms of clothing, work hours (he's always worked late) treatment towards me etc.

My gut is just not letting this go and I don't know why. I haven't found a smoking gun but just that one little message with this casual chumminess has stirred me up again. I know how things can happen at work and over time.

He says he should have to show me everything and that I should respect some areas of privacy but I feel that's a copout.

I'm torn as to what I think is going on. Why wouldn't he want to lessen my worry and just show me other chats so that I would shut up and realize he's not doing anything?

He's always had passwords on everything (his nature) and is a loner as well, but just how much privacy should be in a marriage and can you give me any guidelines on chatting protocal with coworkers etc?

help. going nuts.

Should privacy exist in marriage multiple choice
	no secrets allowed, marriage should be an open book
	some privacy is healhty and normal
	I like privacy and don't mind not knowing my partners business
Votes accepted starting: 03/16/06 05:46 PM
View Results

What matters is what you think. Do you want a marriage where your H shows care and consideration for your feelings (which are yours, always), your beliefs (which is that men cheat, due to your experience, and what the flags are) are yours, and that you would love to trust with openness and honesty. When you have a concern, you share it...doesn't make it his problem but a problem in the marriage.

POJA...how do we do both things...he can help you build your own trust without believing he is causing it. See how reasonable that is?

Not in your marriage.

Your H, if you're quoting him correctly, is abusive. He is...he declares it your problem, a personal one (when it is a marital one), and is not open and honest with your concerns, discounts them and tells you he doesn't trust YOU...which by his logic, would be HIS problem. Pushin' my buttons here, can you tell?

When he tells you that you aren't trustworthy to read his chats with with coworker because you will read too much into them...that's disrespectful, unloving and abusive in my book.

He's telling you who you are and that's a huge no.

You're not crazy because you've been betrayed before, but I do think you're likely to pick the same lesson over again because we take us into the marriage. Had you learned a lot from your previous marriage, you would have established agreed upon boundaries for the marriage and yourself before marrying present H...which include no privacy, respectful beliefs and behavior, and what you choose to do when your boundaries are violated.

Now you're in it again, feeling a replay, and it is time to do this the best way possible. Pick what you want...why do you want him to believe you're not crazy if you're unwilling to trust yourself, know yourself, and believe in you?

You are allowing someone else to tell you who you are and what you're capable of...larger than any A...and usually what comes out during them, btw, before/during/after...crticial issue for you.

You're not alone.

LA

The only privacy you are entitled to is the few minutes you get in the restroom when you lock the door...

Oh, and as my wife says, what happens underneath the bubbles in her bubble bath! (Or at least I added the happens underneath the bubbles... her quote was more like the only privacy she gets is her bubble bath-- I thought the happens under the bubbles sounded like a heck of alot better quote!)

Put you guard up...this one has bad news wrote all over it. I don't care if it is at work, and he thinks he's some big to do -- his little message convo with his secretary or whoever she is, it seems like information that isn't topic secret, and thus, he should be able to share it with you.

I think that veil is one he is using to hide his conversations/flirtation within.

-hang in there

Privacy = I'm going to take a nap, I'm going to use the toilet, etc. You'll know where I am and what I'm doing; I'll just be alone while I'm doing it.

Secrecy = I don't want you to know what I'm doing.

This situation has nothing to do with privacy. Your husband is keeping secrets. That's why your gut is screaming. Listen to it.
Mulan

Excuse the threadjack, but Mulan, could you please email me at the link in my signature? I would like to ask you something. Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LovingAnway-thank you so much for your help- you really gave me some new things to think about, especially the part about him deciding for me how he thinks I'll react to the chats. The more I thought about that, the more it pissed me off at him and at the same time I realized how profound that was.

At the time (in the heat of the moment) I couldn't see that clearly. Thank you for that.

I agree that he must be hiding something. Of course now he's saying that it's against company policy to show me those chats....and as karma would have it, his hard drive just died tonight...hmmph.

I totally think that there are probably some level of flirtation/unprofessional talking going on there. But I am determined to work through my issues and not just pack it in and run like I want to.

I'm struggling with trusting my gut. I don't know how to tell the difference between real instincts and paranoia.

Some of my friends say that I just have to trust, but I'm envious that anyone can just freely trust another. I would like to go back to that stage of innocence again. Tell me about the good ol' days eh?

Do I just let this issue drop or do I continue to add it to the "watch" list?

At what point do you give up trying to catch your spouse cheating or just turn it over to a higher power and let the pieces fall where they may?

Are you familiar with MB principles? Eveen if you;re not sure of the EA yet, I'd start a pretty good plan A without exposure (until you know for sure). If there is no EA, then you've made yourself a more need-meeting attractive spouse--a great plan for your marriage regardless.

I personally see red flags. Someone who has nothing to hide doesn't hide anything and doesn't come up with better reasons why later. (If it really was company policy, he'd have told you on the spot, not the next day).

You are again in panic mode, and need a plan I would say if you want to get to the bottom of that gut feeling.

Company cell phone? No prob. You can tape a voice activated tape recorder under the driver's seat of the car (pay in cash--read that here somewhere) and see if there is anything fishy there. I would start with that.


"reading into them" to me equals "i don't want you to see what I am doing because it is wrong."

Hang in there.



I'm sure more takers should chime in.

Let me just say first that I don't think this is very much of a privacy issue. I think that allowing it to BECOME entrenched as a privacy issue is a mistake. This is a communication/POJA/respect and lack of partnership issue masquerading as a privacy issue.

Let me address your question about privacy first and then I'll get to the issue of how this isn't really a privacy issue, after all (even though he'd like you to think it is).

I'm sure this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I do believe there's a place for privacy in marriage. As someone else mentioned, there's privacy (doing things your spouse knows you do without your spouse knowing every detail) and secrecy (not knowing what your spouse does at all). Secrecy has no place in marriage. Privacy does.

I think we'd all agree that a certain amount of privacy helps keep your human dignity intact: every human should have the basic right to some time alone (going to the bathroom, sleeping, or just recharging in solitude). Being married doesn't mean you have to be super-glued to your spouse every moment. People also have a basic right to their dreams and thoughts. I'd say that therapy sessions should be private and journals should be private. Unfortunately, I think that privacy regarding intimate thoughts (journals) is very little respected. I think a private journal can be read if and only if there is imminent danger to life and limb. Not 'just because I want to know what's going on.'

I also think that privacy has to extend to the workplace in many areas. If your H or W works for the military or government and has some sort of clearance it does NOT extend to you! Your doctor's spouse has no business reading your test results just because they're married. And, your HR director's spouse has no business reading your last performance review even if she thinks you're a bit too pretty. Your accountant or financial manager's husband or wife has no business knowing your account numbers or balances. You also have no right to the proprietary information of your spouse's business.

So, clearly, your spouse has to have some privacy in order to be able to conduct resonable business in a responsible position - unless everything that goes on is public knowledge anyway.

This relationship that your H is havnig with his co-worker, however, has nothing to do with the privacy he needs in order to do his job. When he said:


I think that's basically an admission that he says things to her that he wouldn't say if you were standing right there.

This:


Is simply more deflection. He's turning it around and making about you violating his rights instead of about your marriage having a problem. I really think you should back up and address some partnership issues BEFORE you dive into trying to tackle this issue. You have to get some building blocks in place that get you both working as a team before you can tackle this.

I think it's time for you two to sit down and have a serious discussion (lead by you) about

1.) How you're going to deal with problems in a marriage. Namely, that if one of you has a problem then BOTH of you have a problem and the full resources and attention of BOTH of you is required to solve the problem. No more of this 'it's your problem not mine' attitude.

This would be a deal breaker for me. If he's not willing to commit to being partners with you, then I honestly would have to re-evaluate whether or not the relationship would continue. It's too devastating to wait until he's in a full blown affair to figure out that you're not going to do things as a team.

2.) Once you have negotiated how you can partner together, it's time to negotiate walls and windows and the boundaries of your marriage IN GENERAL. Those walls and windows will have to include resonable provisions for privacy (so you can get things done) while maintaing the security of your marriage.

3.) THEN it's time to apply those general boundaries to this 'friendship.'

Without the building blocks, you're going to be deflected into arguing about things that aren't going to be helpful. If he's not going to agree to partner with you; there's no way he's going to agree to 'give up his privacy' and, even if he does, that won't be a POJA and will just build damaging resentment that might lead to trouble down the line.

Get to the partner stage FIRST.

Mys

There is a difference between privacy and secrecy in a marriage:

[color:"blue"] The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability. [/color]

Therefore (according to the definitions above) I'm of the opinion that NO secrets should be allowed in marriage (marriage should indeed be and open book) although I believe some privacy can be healthy and normal - as long as you stay honest and truthfull with your partner. It’s possible to have some privacy but still be an open book to your spouse (no secrets). Of course activities in the toilet, bathroom etc. are also considered private and privacy in this regard IS necessary and healthy in a marriage! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though...Oceangirl, from what you've posted, it’s clear that your H’s issues is not about privacy at all. He clearly have something to hide and is trying to keep secrets from you…which should not be allowed.

Yes, all true to the above. I have some serious soul searching to do. On one hand I'm glad to have found /seen something because I was beginning to think that I was crazy.

During our arguement, he stated that he doesn't feel like I should be checking up on him, accussing him or "pestering" him. This issue with this coworker has been brought up several times and I feel like I'm battling this alone.

He swears nothing is happening (don't they all) and that in the course of doing his job he does have to have contact and that nothing is inappropriate. I wish I could believe that, which says even more about me and him perhaps. Either I need to work on my baggage and trust issues or there is something going on (maybe a friendship that is bordering on EA)-

I know I can't micromanage anyone and he is at work for 12 plus hours a day in her company and there are all sorts of things he could do that I would have no idea about because he is so secretive to begin with.

I do know that I feel differently towards him. A storm is brewing in the back of my mind and I feel unsafe and insecure right now. A kernel of resentment is starting to form as well.

We are leaving on vacation this week and I know I need to reflect on this. I don't want to drive myself nuts trying to catch him or worse, push him towards her because I will be lovebusting.

I want to thank each and every one of you for taking the time to put your thoughts down. It really helps me when my circle of support just tells me that I'm being silly and trying to look for things because of my history.

Like as if we enjoy being wounded by infidelity or something..pffft.

If you have more thoughts, please continue because I will check the thread while gone.

Dear Oceangirl, whether or not you have “baggage” and “trust issues” is NOT the issue here. Please understand that. Almost every person on this earth have baggage from their past and most people who’s spouses are behaving in the manner your H currently does (secrecy and unwillingness to be an open book about his activities) WILL develop trust issues with such a spouse. It’s normal and understandable. In fact, I think it will be very unwise of you to trust your H’s “chats” and “friendship” with the colleague because he is clearly behaving untrustworthy and disrespectful towards you in this regard. Your H clearly behaves in a way which tells me he has something to hide. And this is what makes you feel so insecure about his trust worthiness and loyalty towards you…and you have much reason to feel concerned. Your gut tells you there is something going on (possibly a friendship bordering on EA) and I think you’re on spot with this.

I was once also involved in a friendship (mostly on e-mail) which developed to beginning stages of EA (read my signature in previous post) and I can tell from what you have posted (and your H’s reactions) that your H is on the same path of destruction with this “friendship” than I previously was. There are red flags all over the place. And I agree with myschae - the fact that your H said "no because we do talk and I don't want you reading things into them" is an admission that he says things to her that he wouldn't say if you were standing right there… I have been there and done that.

Don’t underestimate your gut and “six sense” Oceangirl… During my friendship with XOM, my H started feeling insecure and uneasy about the “friendship” just like you currently are…and at that stage the friendship already became inappropriate and was bordering on EA… And my H’s feelings were spot on all along… So, don’t ignore your gut.

Oceangirl, I want you to read the following thread:

15 Steps Of Unfaithfulness

The above thread is very good and describe how A’s which originally start off as friendships, usually grow and slowly escalates until the participants cross boundaries into EA and then PA. This thread provides good insight into this process and shows where things will eventually lead to if such “friendships” (like your H's "friendship" with OW) is allowed to develop further and spin further out of control.

Also get hold of the book "NOT Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass.

I CAN'T HELP BUT Chime in . since W and I are wrestling with a similar issue.. see In Recovery - When Mental Illness is Tied to OM and Privacy.. I also know first hand what it's like to think something is going on but in my case it was flipped since I'm the BS and the computer expert and W is a computer dummy.. so I found some less than honest emails going back and forth with a former co-worker that has since ended.. but did open up OUR eyes to trust...

Anyway.. my two cents here is that I would not get bogged down with the medium.. be it IM, letters, email, phone calls, etc.. This issue is about simple elements: Trust and respect in your marriage. If raise a concern in your marriage about something like this, even if your hubby is innocent, he should feel compassion for your concerns and paranoia and try to appease them.. if he loves you and wants you to be happy.

Any other reaction from him is a serious problem and you need to keep the focus on the problem "trust,. respect, love, the marriage".. and not on IM chat sessions... People flirt.. to feel good, ego, self esteem, all that BS.. but when they stop and realize that they have a partner who doesn't like it and is actually HURT by it, and still don't stop.. well... I guess you know where you stand then.


I wish you luck with all this and will be praying for you..

EM

Bravo!

What great and sound advice.. how could anyone think that this forum was of no use...

Thanxx Suzet* for again bringing up the whole privacy / secrecy explanation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I've always found that to be helpful in clarifying it in my own mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Excellent posts, Suzet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

threadjack to toprope: would you mind emailing me at my email address below so I can ask you a question? Thanks.

If you couldn't say it or write it with your spouse present, then it's cheating... PERIOD..

You’re welcome top rope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I was digging up the privacy/secrecy explanations from and old post of 2long.

Edited to add:
Thanks Mel! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This situation sounds extremely fishy. I agree that privacy is using the bathroom & secrecy is when someone does not want you to see something or is hiding something. My H was very secretive with his military e-mail acount upon return from his deployment, wouldn't check it around me or would close it quickly if there was something in there from "her". I do know that he was deleting her messages without replying, as she asked him why he did that when he called her to tell her "no contact" and I was listening on the other end, but he was being shady about the e-mail and scared that I would see her messages & become suspicious. What he did not know is that I was already suspicious because of the way he was acting. Normally when you have a gut feeling, it's right on the money. Eventually my H confessed the A, and then told me they he was being "secretive" with his e-mail. Now he is not, and he never will be again.

Hi everyone,

I'm back from my vacation and my head is feeling much clearer. It's amazing what the ocean can do for your soul. I'm still dealing with that nagging feeling in the back of my head but I'm going to work on not letting it eat at me.

I know that I can't control his actions or decisions, I can only control myself. However, I do have the right to live in peace without torment of wondering what is going on and I let him know that I can't continue to stay married to him if he knowingly allows flirtations to develop with his coworker that are hurting me.

I'll have to decide what is the "point of no return" when the worry and pain outweighs the desire to stay with someone if they are being disrespectful towards me. It's hard because we have a child together etc.

He still maintains that there is nothing going on in any way or fashion and spent the whole vacation being extra attentive and affectionate. I made a concentrated effort not to mention it beyond my main "talk" with him about what I thought of it all.

I've got to say that it was so nice to be away from it all (his job, her etc) that I felt peace in my head. I don't know when it will resurface, probably when her named is mentioned again, except he might go "underground" with anything from this point on.

That is another rub, you have to point out how you feel ie, please don't flirt, what's going w you & her etc?)but then I wonder if it just leads to more secrecy?

I want to thank you all for the kind words. You have really given me so much to think about and provided me a new perspective on privacy and secrecy. It helped in such a tremendous way.

Is it normal for me to want to know what their chats were about or am I just a glutton for punishment?