Let me give a little background. My father had an affair when I was 11 and I remembered the day my Mother found out. I lost my Mother that day, due to the emotional damage and venom that consumed her. I vowed NEVER to do this to my children or husband. My husban accused me of having an affair about 12 years ago with our roommate (his friend) over a friend's normal paranomal theories. (He like to dream them up) I have been punished for many years on someone else's story. The roommate left our lives about 8 years ago and just came back, so did the situation. He doesn't believe I did nothing to dishonor him or break any vow, yet I'm being treated like it. Ironically he had a sexual incounter 3 years ago. What in the world do I do to get past this with him. There is so much scarring and old argument patterns behind this mess. Our relationship is extremely vulnerable to failure and am trying the basic principles of MB to salvage it. We need to work this issue and bury it. Any ideas. I welcome all. Thanks, Clara [color:"orange"] [/color]

Clara,

Welcome to Marriagebuilders.

Please tell us more about your situation. How old are you guys? How long married? How many kids and their ages? How did you meet? Is this your first marriage? What was your history of relationships before your marriage?

And, of course, more particulars of your H's accusations against you - and your actual activities with this former roommate.

That's a lot of questions, but you have given us very little to go on here.

-AD (40 something guy, now divorced)

We are both 39 and have been married for almost 20 years now. We have two boys 6 & 5 (just turned). Both have special needs.

Our roomate is a friend from school when my Hubby went back to school for a degree. He has moved in with us 4 different times. We are close with his parents and his brother. Still am. We all developed a good friendship. This guy was very interested in finding girls and was kinda quirky about it. There was no chemistry between us and at no time was it inappropriate. I was always honest with my husband about what we talked about or what we were doing. My husband wasn't interested in my conversations about that and usually brushed me off. Yes, there is a probability that our roommate was fullfilling emotional needs like conversation or attention, but I was very much in love with my husband and didn't see him as anything more than a friend.

The friend that accused him well... lets just say you almost have to meet him to believe it for yourself. He knew everything and even sober he sounded like he was plastered drunk. When he was drunk paranoid he got on our nerves as well as my husband's. His stories changed by the second and ironically my sister married him for about a year and got into the paranoid thing as well. I could write a book about these two. Stirred up all kinds of trouble with many people.

As far as my marriage. My husband has had a difficult time conveying emotions and emotional needs to a point that he will be silent for years without doing anything and by that time it will come out as angry or abusive (not physical), critical and all over the love buster books. I have become almost starving for many emotional needs such as affection. Over the years I have tried to be heard for so long that I have become a little aggressive with my conversation as well. (working on this very hard) My other strongest emotional need now is honesty due to the affair that he had. Yes, this one is not based on speculation. He told me due to a fear of STD. Yikes.

When all is calm and working well. We are very comfortable with each other and he is wonderful with the kids. We are trying. I don't think he is completely convinced that my happiness in this relationship is based off of him. He believes I am responsible for my happiness and I have to deal with it. Leaving me to feel alone as usual. Gosh this sounds really negative. Yes, I love him and I still feel hope. I just need some guidence on this past issue. We've tried to just let it go, but it keeps popping up it's ugly head.

I understand how people can be driven to prove themselves innocent.

Clara <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

This is an adult guy that lives with your family? Sorry, that's not natural nor is it right. He should be living on his own. Nuclear families should not have "roommates" especially when there are special needs kids that need attention.


With friends like that, who needs enemies? Perhaps you could find yourself some more suitable friends.


Sounds like classic conflict avoiding passive aggressive behavior. I should kow. Been there done that!


Clara, you are responsible for your own happiness. Marriage isn't supposed to make you happy; marriage makes you married. If you don't love yourself, how can you expect someone else to love you?

If I've learned nothing else in this life, it's that you can't demend on someone else to bring you happiness. Nope, happiness comes from within.

BTW, from what little I've seen, you have lots of reasons to love yourself and be happy. It takes someone who is darned special to bring up two special-needs kids, for example. Clearly you want to try and make things work, and you forgave him for an A a few years ago. While both of you may have issues, they are not necessarily insurmountable. IC and MC can be wonderful, if done with a good professional (none of this paranormal stuff okay?).

OK, I'll throw a couple of ideas at you...

Why have this person in your life?

And, it is likely if your H was accusing you of having an A, he was having one at the time...it is a common distraction and paranoia.

What say you?

Wow, lot to respond to.

1st thing. This alleged affair happened way before the kids entered into our lives. He has also been out of our lives for about 7-8 years now. I have refused him entering back in. Husband is free to do what he wants.

2nd thing. I agree, I don't want friends like the paranoid one and he isn't in my list of friends. He comes from my husband's side and actually doesn't really talk to him much at all. The friend is the one that makes the contact and my husband dreads when he calls. I have forbidden this man around the family. (violent side to him-long story and it involves my sister's marriage to him)

3rd thing. I am responsible for my happiness. My own and my children's, especially since I am the primary caregiver and I want to set a good example. However I believe that a marriage between a couple that I own how I make him feel about us and he owns how he makes me feel about him. Another words I can add the love or take it away with my actions.

4th. I hope I'm getting all these to respond to. I don't want to live paranoid. That can suck you in like a black hole and experienced a brief moment of that when I found out about the STD threat 3 years ago. Yuk! Yes, there could be an affair going on at the same time he was accusing me and their could be one going on right now. Does he answer a direct question? No, he will spin it fast and point it on me. There are two possible situations and this is based on experience. He is afraid of where to go and what to do, so he will not do anything at all and keep things safe and the same. (Depression is similar to this) Or he is having an affair and is getting angry and redirecting at me as a distraction method.

5th. Yes, the man loves the passive aggressive stuff. He is a good at it too. Very aggravating. Is there a counter manuever that will just deflate or not fuel this behavior? I don't want to fight it, just not add to it and leave it powerless.

I hope this adds some light here. Reply again if you have any more questions. I would be happy to give you more of the story if it will help with the solution. Just for the record. I do know that I am part of the deteriation of this marriage and am willing and trying to work on my personal issues as well.

Clara

I hope my previous posting didn't read as ya buts. I should have put the 1st, 2nd... stuff in there. I was just hoping to get more information out there to help anyone to be able to help me better. Sorry if it sounded that way.

Ask me anything and I will be honest. I want my marriage to work for both of us and our children! And that means do what it takes. Clara

How often does husband bring up accusations of an affair per week...

what are the circumstances....

what is going on in the home that starts him down the path of accusing you of affair behavior..

you gotta find the pattern
and break your participitation in it...

ARK

Usually this topic comes up when a tough emotional topic is on the table. Currently his Dad was just diagnosed with Cancer. And then we found out our old roommate was back in town.

Good question as to how often. At least once a year, but it will be BIG! The backlash of the sting of that discussion/argument can last for a week to a month. It's like an old white elephant you can't get rid of.

My part is frustration in proving my innocence. I would love to hear his needs or feelings, but mostly I see pointing fingers and accusations. He has never told me what I did that was innappropriate or disrespectful to him. Obviously I hurt him in some way and I want to learn from that.

When there is a tough conversation (emotional) and a question is posed that is difficult the conversation will turn into an intense carnival ride. I've been doing better with disengaging those turmoil moments so limit my damage to the conversation or moment, but sometimes an exit is not allowed! It can feel very controling at those times.

Clara

Let me ask a simplier question.

Should I just let this issue fade away and not add anything to it when it comes up and just know in my heart I'm innocent.

or

Should I attempt to talk this through and hope that he will open up?

Clara

I think you need to not go down that road...and keep on track on topic that caused the distress..

it's like using a divergence tactic..

he's upset about his dad..it's very stressful so instead of dealing with those feelings and issues...he attacks you..and the nicest divergence game is on...

it's comfortable
and
known to both of you...so there for it is easier than the cancer topic...

what happens when you don't rise to any of the affair baiting and keep going back to the real issue...

change is hard....and scary..
tell him when it is happening..

tell him you are bringing up things in the past because what you are talking about scares and hurts you...

have you two ever been in counseling...

other thing you can do is the second he brings up affair..
leave
leave the room
leave the house
leave

and do not engage with him..

ARK

What you mentioned about a detour from dealing with his Dad fells right on the money? It feels like he is a ticking time bomb.

We have been in counseling for over 3 years. We've been through 2 counselors. Both of them I made the call to quit. We had stalled out and the abuse was getting out of control again. When I found out about the affair, I found the Surviving an Affair book. It was the only thing on the topic that gave a pattern for healing and repairing the damage that led the affair to begin. I've been wanting to be in the program since. But he hasn't, so we've gone to counselors. The last was a personal couselor and not a marriage counselor and demanded we try this one. I quit when I found myself arguing with the counselors about our responsibility as spouses and the effect our actions can add or take away from a marriage. His point is that everything was up to us and it didn't matter what the other person was doing.

I will take the advice about leaving the conversation on this hot topic. That might be the only way is to literally not to allow the opportunity to add fuel or even a bouncing board for the behaviour or for me to abuse back. This I can do. Good idea.

I want to be there for him, but he won't let me in. So I focus on fullfilling his emotional needs and just will be available.

We seperated about 3 months ago and agreed when he moved in to try the program at home. (it's been about 2 months) He is very reluctant. Do you think the weekend seminar would do us any better? Maybe not at this very moment because surgery is coming up soon for his Dad, and I wouldn't want to do that to him. But later on.

Clara

I hear the passive aggressiveness is VERY damaging in your R, and his bringing up a past A is a way to keep you off guard.

You mention abuse...physical?

I suspect he is using his anger about the A as abuse...

PA's thrive on the chaos other's feel. They are afraid of being controlled so they have to control EVERY situation, including when and how you get mad. They are punishing and demanding, but never outwardly so they can deny they are like this person.

The fact they are passive about this abuse is the key here... Usually a PA person does not WANT to be PA. They don;t even realize they are doing it. They developed this as a defense style when they were younger, and now they don't need it any longer...as a matter of fact, it is making their life and R's miserable.

How to deal with it?

Knowledge is power. The more you can read about it and discover when he is acting this way. The more you can talk with him and realize what of his behavior is PA and destructive...then it comes down to changing the habit...that is tough and can get VERY frustrating.

Once you see the behaviors, the evasiveness, the punishing behavior, etc. YOU will have to decide how you are going to handle it. Stop allowing him so much control over your life. For instance...when we would be out somewhere, at a party, a park/picnic, an amusement park (especially), H would show signs of wanting to leave (OK, more than signs, he would get angry, want to leave NOW, and stand there scowling until we left). I talked with him about this behavior. I worked out with him that we would drive in 2 cars, or I would have the keys. If he begins to act that way when we are out, I will not ask him anymore questions and I would walk away until he felt better. This happened only a few more times before he realized what he was doing, how it affected me and folks around him, and how I was not going to be controlled by it.

There are many other things we had to do too.

This would not have worked however if H did not WANT to change his PA behavior...

Clara,

It sounds like there are more problems than just these accusations.

First, I would recommend that you read up on the basic concepts here. It sounds like you have already done some of that, but keep reading, digging and thinking. The MB "program" is that each of you need to understand the others' needs and meet them as best you can, while at the same time avoiding the LoveBusters (LB's). Sometimes you have to work on this for many months before the old patterns start to crumble, and you can begin to really get close to one another again. Each of you have to more-or-less do this independently, in the sense that you may need to change - and stay consistent in those changes - for a long time before you see the response from him.

Personally, I'm not fond of labels. I don't find it helpful to say "he is a conflict avoider", because as soon as you have done that, you have labeled him as "bad". As soon as the other person is has a "bad" label applied, it's easy to say "it's all his problem and there is nothing I have to do". Also, in my opinion, people tend to toss these labels around without having clearly defined critera by which the label is earned. He may or may not be a CA, but it really doesn't matter. Now, if you found such a defect in yourself then it would be something you could work on, but whatever defective strategies he may apply in life, you cannot change them. You can only change yourself, so that is the place (in my opinion) you must focus your efforts.

About communication...

Many people are not in touch with their emotions and simply do not understand themselves well enough to participate at a high level in discussions about feelings. I believe, this is more often true of men than of women, but happens to both men and women. For a person who understands himself well, it is difficult to imagine what this feels like, and maybe even impossible to believe that a person can be unable to discuss his/her feelings. I think this may be happening to some extent here. Please be patient with your H and don't try to force him to engage in a type of discussion which is very awkward and stressful for him. I believe you may be able to get there, but it will most likely be by slow, gentle and sensitive means. You have to make it (emotionaly) safe for him to enter into this kind of discussion. You have to take it in very small sessions (because it quite likely is very difficult and stressful for him), and make each session rewarding for him. If you want to draw him out, I believe you'll have best success if you can make it a positive experiece for him.

I would like to make a suggestion. It is only a suggestion. OK?

It is very important to listen to him patiently. It has been said that in an average day, an average woman speaks twice as many words as the average man. I don't know if it is true, but I believe it anyway. I have often found it the case that I want to talk, but my wife didn't give me the opportunity. She didn't understand that it took me longer to form my thoughts into words and to express myself. So, she gave such small openings in her speech that I rarely was able to have an opportunity to express myself without being interrupted and preempted. I don't think she did it intentionally. She just didn't understand that I needed really quite a long period of time to form my thoughts into words, and that I needed to stay on topic and work one thing out in detail at a time. Your H may also be like me, and you may need to slow things waaaay down and really wait and listen to him. It will take patience.

When he starts accusing you, wait and listen. Listen to his entire speech without interrupting - and then, first, give him some affirmation. For example, you might say "I understand how painful it must be for you to think that I had an A with whats-his-name. Thank you for confronting me with this and giving me a chance to respond." Then, tell him some things that you admire about him - how hard he works, or something special he does with the children. This is not a diversion, just a brief affirmation before your response. Then, try to nail down some particular part of his accusation, for example, he might recall some time he came home and found you deep in conversation with this former roommate. Again affirm to him that you understand how this might cause him concern, and appologize (yes!) for doing something which distressed him. Then, deal with the actual thing. What really did happen on that occation (if you remember, and this is not the right time to pretend to have forgotten). If there is genuinely any truth to his accusations - at any level, acknowlege your error and appologize.

If he hasn't left you, whatever he accuses you of is something he can forgive. If there is any truth in his accusations, by all means, confess and beg forgiveness.

Try with all your might to avoid justifying yourself or defending yourself. And (again this is only an experiment I am recommending, and not something carried down the mountain carved in stone) ... and never answer one accusation with another. If he says "you did such-and-so", I think it is entirely unhelpful to say "Butyou did this-and-that".

This is only my opinion.

-AD

Wow, that is a lot to chew on.

I want to work on myself and this is something I can do for him. Yes, in counseling it did take him a while to gather his thoughts on emotional issues. I will give him the time to do so.

I have no problem acknowledging my own downsides and asking for forgiveness. I do realize I have done my fair share (a lot) of this relationship's damage and want to stand on my responsibility and learn from that. This vary well may be one of those areas.

What would you suggest if the discussion turns defensive? Let me just say when it does it is quick and he will dominate the entire discussion and there will be little to no windows remaining and will start talking for me and remembering that it was me responding. It can get aggressive fast. Yes, I understand what you mean by labeling him in the conversation and how that can bring up a "I'm a bad guy" reaction and he will stick to that. I try to avoid those (still working on that) because it does turn the discussion also deffensive like mentioned above. He is very sensitive and reacts quickly, It feels like there is little room for error in my part. Very little.

I feel like I have worked on us for so long. I've worked on me for also the same length and to deal with old skelaton issues and elliminate them from contaminating our relationship.I am definately not the same woman 3 years ago from my own personal growth.

You brought up some excellent suggestions and I will ponder these in my head for a while. Thank you for making me think about these. Really.

Clara <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Clara,

The convo can turn defensive in only one of two ways, either you can be accusing him and him defending himself, or he can be accusing you and you react by defending yourself. In either case, you can prevent that from happening, by not accusing him (while he is trying to work out an issue with you), and by not defending yourself against his accusations.

It is hard. I know exactly what you mean about the conversation very quickly spiraling out of control. But, this is the thing that will (usually) prevent that from happening. If you don't take the bait (and that may very well be what it is), the spiral to explosion will be cut off. It takes self discipline, patience, and that oldfashioned thing called forebearance. But, I believe it will work. I often failed to control myself and let these types of conversations get out of control too. I know how hard it is, but if you hold your tongue, the explosion really will be muffled.

This is not to say that you have to endure unending verbal abuse, but only that you should try to discipline yourself to not respond in kind.

I'm divorced, by the way, so my advice is suspect... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AD

What you are saying seems to fit my situation perfectly. I will do my best and then do it again until I get it right. This will take some practice.

Yes, there is a lot of baiting. Let me ask you this. If the conversation does go bad, what kind of damage control can I do to minimize the effect or maybe even get it back on track as soon as possible.

Thanks for your help!!!
Clara

I don't know Clara, the best I could usually do was just to hang up or walk away (leave the house if I had to). But once in a while, about 1 out of 50 times, I could say something like "Let's not go around that circle again. We've run this script a dozen times." - and it would sometimes work. That's not very good percentages for me! Maybe you can do better.

-AD