Should you feel guilty about verifying trust?

One thing that all the suspicious S’s need to understand is that if you are suspicious there is likely a problem.

No, that doesn’t mean EVERY time you are suspicious that there is something there.

But would you have the gut feeling without there being anything? Probably not.

This is about verification of trust.

You have everything to lose and the stakes are really high here in M.

If you have that “gut feeling” then odds are you are onto something. This does not mean panic, it means get busy.

The wayward spouse will refer to your efforts to validate trust as:

Snooping.
Spying.
Obsessing.
Being untrustworthy.
Messing with their [censored].

People with nothing to hide; hide nothing.

If my W wants to download every single databit of information off of my computer she knows she just has to ask and it’s hers for the taking. If she wants to do it without asking that’s fine too.

Your S should have the same attitude.

Do NOT feel bad or guilty about investigating truth.

Going back under my rock,
Plank.

Good points, Plank. I see folks who adopt inappropriate guilt about snooping. There is nothing wrong with snooping if one has a legitimate suspicion. There is something wrong with lying and adultery, there is nothing wrong with CATCHING someone cheating. No one has the right to the privacy to carry on an affair. NO ONE.

So, don't ever feel bad about snooping. There is no virtue in sticking one's head in the sand.

I trusted my WH in everything. I never snooped. After I found out about the affair, I considered it verifying. He proved to me by his actions that he was no longer trustworthy.

If I hadn't snooped, found his cellphone, locked myself in the bathroom and listened to his call history and messages, I'd never known about continuing contact. There's a poster over on recovery who went through his wife's private journal and has been criticised for it. Personally, I think if she leaves it where he can find it, as a BS, how can he resist? However, I must say, it was on one of my trips to the loo with my WS's cellphone, that I thought "what am I doing? I don't want to live like this". Hence, I asked for a separation.

Mel,

I wanted to write that because I've read over and over about how people feel guilty for validating fidelity or verifying trust.

It's mind job class 101 to go from trusting everything in the world to feeling like a slug for doing some detective work and I was hoping to help people not feel that way.

I felt like that myself when I was trying to verify my W's A had ended.

We have enough emotional issues going on than to worry about proper etiquette while investigating facts.

Plank.

Yeah that was me.... I'm not snooping for the typical reasons though...

Lack of trust and suspicions make BS do things they ordinarially never would. I felt really slimey about snooping in CH stuff. It seemed like a necessary evil. Then there is its demeaning sibling, the driveby. How many times has everybody driven by OP's or CS work to see if the car was there.

Like tucktummy, I found that the continued information gathering was lower than I could go. Part of me was glad when CH moved out because I wasn't forced to snoop (either by need or compulsion) because he was gone.

Although snooping is the right and proper thing to do, it doesn't feel like you are on the high road when you do something so low.

I do hope some day I can get to a POJA situation.

Grapegirl, I never felt I was taking a low road, but a HIGH ROAD by busting my H's affair. I view it as the moral equivalent of the police investigating the mafia, which is a VIRTUOUS ACT. I would never view their work as taking the low road, but as a good deed that serves justice. I believe that busting someone in an affair is exactly the same. It is the HIGH ROAD, in every respect, to uncover wrongdoing.

It is the corret thing to do,It really is hard to look your w in the face just after reading a -"HOT & Botherd "- E-MAIL from another man.Her being naked , in bed, ENJOYING sex with someone else. That really hard -- if you can't handle it STOP. But don't feel bad about you H being COMMON
. Keep us posted

snoop ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snp)
intr.v. snooped, snoop·ing, snoops
To pry into the private affairs of others, especially by prowling about.



Personally I don't think Privacy should be an issue in marraige. You've sworn till death do us part, the rings a symbol of a never ending circle where your two lives are entwined.

I made the mistake of thinking that by giving my husband "Privacy" all through our marraige, letting him do what he pleased with no nagging, I was respecting him as an individual. Never asked him to do chores, yardwork, anything at all.

How it really came across what that I didn't CARE what he did, so when I became ill it all backfired in my face. Never again.

If you go through your own wallet or purse...its not snooping. If you've sworn to marraige, "Ours" is the operative word, not "This is mine and that is yours"

Same bank account, same bed, same house, ....you don't tell your spouse "Sit on the loveseat..thats yours. The sofa is mine"

That would just be plain silly.

The same should apply to everything else as well.

Snuggles

Grapegirl -- LOL about the "demeaning sibling" of snooping, a.k.a. the driveby. I've found myself doing that on a couple of occasions lately (justifying in my mind that it's "practically" on my way somewhere, nevermind that I have to drive into an industrial park that I have no other business being in) and I always feel slightly ashamed about it, especially when WH's car is sitting there in the lot where it should be. But it does help put my mind at ease, which overrides the small amount of shame related to the act.

I think that little bit of personal privacy should be allowed under normal circumstances, even within a marriage (people should be able to keep diaries, for example, that are out of the reach of scrutiny even from spouses), but when one person is keeping secrets that are harmful to the marriage then he or she must be prepared to lose that privacy, at least temporarily.

So what if the diary/journals contain a "longing" and a fantasy for OM, a OM that she actually had a ONS with??? A OM that she wrote about for 10 + years...an OM that she's thought about the entire M?

I mean is it an EA if it's only one person involved? Is that nuts? I know she's nuts but what about me? Should I be jealous of thoughts if she shows me real love in reality...

Should that be ok since it's only "thoughts" and not actions?? Is that not cheating in essense since it's acknowledging the need to be with another person, whether fantasy or not.. whether healthy longing or if it's rolled up into a dysfunctional addiction and obsession that's part of a depression..

Is it depression.. or just true unresolved feelings for someone she "thinks" she loved.. even if they never had a relationship of any kind..should I care. God it hurts me so much.. it's our only issue because it's her only issue. The one thing she claims she can't let go...

Very painful to read, that's for sure.. your W writing about a life with another man, having his baby, like he's her soulmate..etc.. while all the while she's acting and telling you that you are her man, her reality, she sleeps in your arms, she tells you she loves you during sex and after, she calls and leaves vm message singing songs to you.. tells you that you're a great man. she respects you.. etc.. tells you what a great man you are.. with great passion and conviction..


What does all that good stuff mean in reality when she's writing in her journal otherwise?

I don't know..

MC/IC thinks W is coming around and the fact that she is coming around is causing her to crash since she IS getting intimate... so it could all be a good sign..

Nobody can control their thoughts 100% of the time, and on the one hand wouldn't you rather that your spouse wrote down her fantasies about another person than act on them? But it sounds like she has an unhealthy obsession about her OM, and it's no surprise that it's affecting your marriage.

Hang in there. I hope the situation starts to improve for you both soon.

I think I can add to this post since I have had the perspective of both sides of this situation. For years I had an Internet “lifestyle” that not only did not include my wife, but I actively worked to keep it from her. We began counseling with MB’s about 5 years ago and Steve H made the recommendation for Spectorsoft software to be installed on my work computer. Begrudgingly, I complied and my wife now had a replay of every Internet site, email, or document I visited/worked on. This just meant I had to find other ways of getting my fix and keeping my secret life going. Until I absolutely took ownership of the problem (literally just weeks ago) and accepted that my actions were hurting my wife, and decided that it was not fair, was I able to truly give her access to everything and mean it and LIVE IT. NOW, 5 years later, due to the consequences of my years of neglect and secrecy, my wife has now adopted the habit of participating in secret online chats, yahoo groups, secret email account, etc... OUCH!! When I decided to truly open up, I was really choosing a lifestyle change, and I have “kept” my end of the “bargain” and continue to give my wife unfiltered, total access to my life. However, seeing where she is and feeling a semblance of the pain she must have felt for years, my perspective has completely changed. THAT’s my Long-winded wind up to this … SNOOPING IS NECESSARY AND MUST TAKE PLACE WHEN ANY THOUGHT EXISTS THAT A PARTNER IS BEHAVING IN A MANNER DETRIMENTAL TO THE RELATIONSHIP. There is no shame in it, and it DOES NOT violate ANYONE’s rights … in fact, it preserves the most basic tenet of marriage – OPEN AND HONEST COMMUNICATION. Take it from someone who has seen both sides and fought to keep a secret life – for the sake of the marriage and in respect of the sanctity of the relationship, it is the mission of both husband and wife to BE open and honest, and when there exists a question of openness and honesty, BOTH or ONE must endeavor to find out the truth and EACH must deal with the applicable consequences.

And in the infamous words of Forrest Gump … “That’s all I have to say about that!”
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And another thing ... as I finished reading all of the posts, a common theme seems to come up -- that there is room for a "little" secrecy in relationships (journals, diaries, etc). IMO that is absolutely WRONG and AGAINST MB's Policy of Radical Honesty. Journals, email sent folders, inboxes, letters in the mail, you name it, are ALL the property of husband and wife. There can be no exceptions EVER. If a spouse feels better if he/she has the guarantee that their journal or diary is private and off-limits, then that's OK as long as whatever goes in the journal is always discussed and shared with each other. If you review the policy of radical honesty it clearly states that both spouses must share everything -- actions, thoughts, AND feelings on the PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE. NOTHING CAN BE WITHHELD.

How about if you change the word to investigating or seeking out information or something? Snooping alaways sound invasive, distrusting, disreaspecting. Yet your intent is do none of those things. You are obtaining information that may be vital to the survival of your R, right?

She DID act on them.. If for one night while she was traveling.. and on an annual annivesary trip.. How ****** up is that? And I was the one that planned to go where we were going so she could see OM and get some closure.. Some closure !!! I got held up at work and sent her out there alone one night early.. they hooked up, got drunk and surprise surprise.. God, I still wrestle with the fact that I facilitated the whole thing and if I hadn't, would she have ever seen him again... Does that matter now? I need to let it go.
It happened over 1.5 years ago and I've known over 7 months.

W keeps saying the "I'm all that matters", "I'm her man", and it's about "US" and "I'm her reality".. she respects me so much, etc... You need to read my previous threads to truly appreciate the complexity of this one since there's clinical mental illness involved...

The OM obsession is not healthy, IC/MC and I agree. He's a "symbol" of something to her.. it's really not that complicated...

I just WISH it was gone. It's like how can I ever recover from it all when her obsession still exists... even if only in her journals and private thoughts and if they are part of her delusionary mind....

We love each other and we show each other great love.. We love our children and show them great love. We sleep in each others' arms.. we write each other love notes, we talk, the sex is GREAT (always was) and getting more intense emotionally for both of us, she's changing.. W is more affectionate with me, reaching out to girlfriends more... family... LOVES the children so much and it shows... she's 180 from where she was 6 months ago... a better mother.. and she's trying to wrap herself up in all the goodness and purity of my love for her.. I really ask for nothing and I handle everything...

but I simply want "thoughts" of OM gone. I want resolution. Is that fair? Is that a reasonable expectation? Or is it HER issue that SHE must work out and I must let GO?

I honestly don't fear an EA/PA or anything like that.. She's knows all bets would be off.. and they would be... and OM would never contact her after my last communication with him.. unless he's nuts too...

But can I live the remainder of my life knowing that my W (whether a ill person's obsession or not) has a "thing" (unresolved/stuck emotions) for OM and thinks they had something when they really had nothing. She had a crush and never got over it, like some high-school psycho-chick !! They never even went out or had sex, and sex is my W's #1 EN!!! Is that wild!? It was all this dysfucntional connection. Alcholic parents, abuse, etc. Does misery really love company this much? To the point of self-destruction?

Some women's head would explode if they saw how my W lives.. I mean she has the kids from 7am-8am and 4-7pm but the day is hers.. hair, nails, waxing, gym, shopping... friends for lunch.. charity, errands.. I mean how bad could life be?

Or is that it? not enough challenge? Like raising children in a loving and healthy environment isnt the most important ******* job in the world...

***** please...


Like when she tells me how her and OM were "connected" From what?? Having drunken talks at a bar at how screwed up your childhood was? They shared nothing.. Nothing that would demonstrate, even remotely, LOVE ... W even wrote in her journals how when she told him how much she missed him when the caught up after 10 years and all HE could say was "HMMMMMM" like THAT means anything.. Why would she log that like it's special? HMMMM..
******* patethic..

I get so angry over it all sometimes.. the irony of it all. Here I am, after 12 years of marriage, still pursuing my W emotionally, physically, spiritually... like I just met her and with great passion and interest... and she's having thoughts of someone who gave her "NOTHING" !!! IS that right out of the books or what? IC tells me that I need to get what I can out of the relationship but the W really can't change. *-the IC. I have hope and faith that she can change.. and I see it.. God I hope what I see is real.. and not something I want to see.. it's real and it's there.. and we've made such great progresss.. but it really is all one day at a time..

Is there anyone out there that has even remotely dealt with something like this with a positive outcome? I think I need to start a new thread on the subject.. I'm now searching for answers on a depression board as well....

Pathetic, I am.. Like I need to fix all her problems.. Like I should think I can..
Is that my obligation as a spouse? To FIX her? and now to fix her "throughts". To help her with her mental issues, even if they involve twisted emotions over a OM that she shared nothing with..?? AN OM with whom she actually had a ONS with that nearly destroyed her and us..

I know only I can answer these questions folks.. and I will.. but I'm working it all out.. one day at time.. The mornings seem to be the worst for me. Damn hormones.. I cry like a baby, uncontrollably.. and the entry about how I strangled her in a previous life and now I'm paying for it.. Imagine that? Who would deal with that? I'm forcing her to take that to the MD shrink for her next meds checkup..

Thanks for listening whoever got through all this..

My intentions are pure and sincere. I simply want to have the best marriage I can have.. For my children, for my W and I and I will NOT settle for second best on that front. Why bother? I could be happy alone in that case, dating and hanging with my friends and seeing my kids on weekends.. I swear I could... but I want US to be happy.. together.. and I feel this THING keeps us from that..

That's it.. sorry for rant..

EM