Just about every BS here has heard the line "I don't love you anymore" or "I just don't love you in the same way". So, the WS believes they are no longer in love with the BS and that is permanent.

Now, I have seen some stories of long term affairs going for years. When they end I've seen the WS suddenly wake up and suddenly "feel' they are in love with their BS again. It's almost like a dormant gene so to speak.

Is this the norm? Can you share an experience like this? I find it hard to believe that a WS can suddenly come out of a "fog" after the A has burnt out and have these feelings but some of these stories I've read seem to suggest this. Some of these over a couple of years. Can anyone share their experience whether a BS or a WS? I'd be interested to see this.

Does a 3 year A count? I heard those very words and even asked why did he lie to me b4 we got married? I asked when he stopped loving me and how dare he not inform me sooner. LOL!!! Dumb WS was sooo befumbled, he couldn't come up with a date. I blew that bluff right out the window.

IMHO, when you get that kind of babble, go with the flow and demand proof.

L.

Of course a 3 year affair counts. Thanks for the reply Orchid. In your sitch did you guys ever get back together or is the A still going on?

A: August 2000

d/d Nov 2000

end of A: August 2003 (I saw OW in court in Sept 2003). NC every since. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In recovery with plan B in my back pocket.

L.

Wow. 3 YEars is a long time. And you even took him back after all that time. It shows love doesn't die as easily as some people think. Or atleast all of it.

I would be interested in hearing other responses.

IMHO, the distinction is between infatuation versus mature love.

A's start as infatuation. Actually, all R's start as infatuation. Infatuation feels very good, but just can't last. Infatuation dies. If the person is "worthy" infatuation matures into love. If the person is not worthy, the R ends.

When it matures it can mature into Romantic Love or more of a friend/family type love. Mature Romantic Love is the ultimate goal for couples. I think many couples love matures into a friend/family type love. The classic "I love you (like a friend or member of the family), but I'm not in love with you (not romantic).

Let's face it, while mature romntic love is the ultimate, infatuation is going to trump friend/family type love every time.

Anybody who has been married for any length of time probably has a mature love. But if it is not a romatic love, the risk of an A is present.

Once the A occurs, the WS says this sure feels a lot better than what I've been feeling and I'm going to protect this at all costs.

To me coming out of the fog means, either a) the infatuation ended (as it always does) and the OP is not "worthy" of love or b) the WS realizes it was just infatuation and that mature romantic love is the ultimate goal and this goal is best achieved via the BS with which there is already the foundation of a mature friend/family love or c) the WS realizes that romantic mature love (regardless of whether still infatuated or the R has matured) is just not possible with OP due to either the way the R (A) started or other responsibilites (family, etc.)

In all cases the WS is left with the BS and their feelings for them which are just family/friend type of love. Which is obviously not sustainable for an M.

I think if the coming out of the fog is due to

a) the "snap back" into love comes becuase they have compared the OP to the BS and determined the BS to be superior. A sort of mini infatuation occurs due to the mind saying if I was infatuated with OP and BS is clearly better then I should be infatuated with BS.

b) less of "snap back" because the WS has voluntarily given up the infatuation and never gets to the compare/contrast BS and OP. But the infatuation never matured to love. So, they do "snap back" some because they have a goal (mature romantic love) and they want to work toward it.

c) least amount of "snap back". No compare/contrast, and infatuation of the A turned into love. The A ended for rational as opposed to emotional reasons. WS is only back in the M to do the right thing.

I doubt all these decisions are made on the conscious level, but the decisions are made. While the MB principles apply in all cases, the time and amount of work required is going to vary depending on what makes a person come out of the fog.

Anyway, that's my theorey.

rprynne,

Well, that is a very interesting theory. I've never heard it this way before. You really broke it down to a psychological level. Did you come up with all this on your own? I actually like this viewpoint. I can actually relate to this way of understanding. Not the other bull [email]cr@p[/email] that you hear from a WS.

As a FWW, I don't think anything "snapped" with me. I honestly loved my BH during the entire affair. I just wanted BH to love me, and he didn't. After the A ended, due greatly to my "loyalty" to BH, I knew I could not move on until I had tried to work it out with BH.

I had hoped that OM could fix whatever was broken in me. It wasn't about who I loved, it was about how I felt. I may just be weird, but I can decide who and when to love. I chose to open the door to OM, but when it was over, it was over. I chose to open the door to BH, it was just allowing myself to feel the stuff that had always been there.

As a BW, I can easily see loving my WH completely again. I am having a little trouble on the respect stuff, but I love him. I don't give into it much right now because it hurts. Maybe I love when it is safe for me to love. Loving WH didn't feel safe before my affair, I was in a deep depression and he has issue with any mental disorder. So he wasn't safe feeling and I let myself love someone else.

When I was ready to reconcile, I was safe to love BH again, I had fixed whatever screw I had loose.

I am rambling, sorry.

TR,

Yes, I guess I came up with that all myself, with the help of lots of different reading and observation.

I put some thought into this question simply because after D-Day, I could not understand why my FWW did not immediately do a 180 and say I want to work on the M. This was very painful for me and really hit my self-esteem. "Was I really so awful an H that after you (FWW) have hurt me so, that your #1 priority is not to make this right".

My FWW is a very successful, intelligent and attractive woman. She is not cruel or evil and not prone to emotional responses. Her logic is different than mine many times (and we have many debates about this), but logical nonetheless.

I neglected her and she was unhappy for a long time. A long time. She started making changes to try and be happy and the A was one of these changes.

I'll pause there because most on these boards get real unhappy on these points. I do not accept responsibility for her choice to have an A. That was her choice. I think it was a bad choice. I know the role I played in getting our M to this point, but believe there were better options than an extramarital relationship. I also know others get real upset when you call an A a R, but for me an A is a R. An R does not carry with it implied goodness. R's can be noble or nefarious.

Anyway, I understand the fog and the addictive nature of an A, but this just didn't fit. This is not a yabut to the MB principles (another sore spot with some posters), its just my FWW was not walking around in a fog and did not strike me as addicted. Yes, there were times she did seem "foggy", but most times her actions seemed purposeful. She would say, I will end contact, but I will not commit to working on the M. I will go to MC, but I won't move back home. I would post questions about this, and the answer I always got was that if your FWW will not move back home, committ to the M, etc., the A continues. To some extent they were right and to some extent they were wrong.

Yes, my FWW broke our first and second attempt at NC. So the vets were right. When she did, I was furious. I LB'd, gave ultimatums, poured on the guilt, etc. My FWW did not budge. We were right back to, I'll end contact, but I'm not committing to the M. (I know, all the veterans are saying WS lies, lies, lies - she's feeding you a line, she's a cake eater). But the contact was not the same. Its hard to put into words, but the contact was not about cake eating, it was about maintaining options and flexibility. (I know, fence sitting WS). Maybe it was a case of fence sitting, but where do you draw the line between fence sitting and just taking time to make a decision.

Obviously, I was going a little crazy trying to understand this behavior. I finally decided to try and take my emotions out of the equation. I was not going to take this personally.

So, what drives the decision to end an A? Based on what drove the decision, what would be the logical behavior after ending the A. To me, it all came down to happiness.

If I've learned anything on this forum, I've learned people are remarkably fragile and strong all at the same time. Fragile in how insidously they can be made to feel unhappy or how easy it is to slip into neglect. Truly, until you've read HNHN did you really ever think that forgetting to tell your W ILY could make them unphappy? The first time one forgets to do this, they move on about their day without a second thought. Then they slip again, and again, etc. If someone had told you that little slip is going to one day end your M, you'd laugh out loud. Devil's always in the details. The little things matter. Drops of water move mountains. But people are strong at the same time. Especially in how people will fight for happiness.

So, I think A's end due to a vote about happiness. The candidates are the OP and the BS. In essence, Plan A is all about the ebb and flow of happiness. The A life becomes unhappy due to exposure, confrontation, guilt, the light of day. The M life becomes happy due to EN's being met, no LB's, morality. When this vote is a landslide in favor of BS, the WS jumps right back into the fight for happiness with high conviction. When the vote is an easy win for the BS, the WS jumps back in, but still has some doubts. When its neck and neck between BS and OP, the WS is very cautious until they see long term proof that they made the right choice.

I just tried to think in general terms what could make this decision a landslide versus neck and neck. I think it has to do with how far the A had gone, did it end at infatuation and nothing more, did it go beyond infatuation, but clearly not have the potentional for the ultimate, or did other factors not allow the WS to answer these questions. The degree in which a person has decided their happiness clearly lies with the BS, should be a relative indicator of how quickly they find happiness in the M.

I sometimes think that BS who are in recovery spend to much energy trying to understand the A, how it started, and all the details. The end of the A (not the start of the A) is the begining of recovery. I think there are probably some good insights as to the best way to recover, what to expect from recovery, and how long it might take if the BS and FWS discuss why the A ended. It can be painful, cause it can hurt when a WS says to you, I ended not because I love you, but because it was the right thing to do. Painful, but you need to know where your starting from.

I love my W. It pains me to hear that she no longer has romantic feelings for me. But I will take that kind of pain over the pain of not knowing how she feels and what is going on in our M. I never want to be in the dark again. We now have the chance to achieve a mature romantic love. I hope we get there.

As always, I like to hear others opinions.

Jean36,

First, no need to be sorry and you are not rambling. I appreciate your input. It helps me understand a little better every time. Maybe we can all learn a little from each others mistakes on this web site. That is why I am here. Some of the best input that I have seen have come from FWS here.

I'm sorry for the situation that you are in. All I can say is stick it out because you know as anyone else that the chances for them are slim and the burn out is coming. Maybe this time around when he does come back you guys get it right this time.


rprynne,

It sounds like we are in a similar situation except your a little ahead of me since there is no reconciliation happening for me just yet. Only time will tell. It also seems we look at it in a similar manner. As ugly as it is I need to know the reality of the situation. That way I know what monster I truely face so I can defeat it.

Deep down I still love her. It's just that sometimes it is real hard to find these days. It's been over a year now for me since D-day and she has never looked back. I thought we had a great marriage. Not perfect but nothing near struggling. That I could not understand. I treated her far better than most husbands treat their wife. I always put her first. But I guess it was not enough.

I'm sort of at a crossroads now. Do I hang on or do I throw in the towel? I'm just not sure what the answer is. If I knew in a given amount of time that she would want to reconcile then I would stick around. But the thing is I do not. I do not want to wait around for years for something that is never going to happen.

That is why I come here. Hoping to get some answers. Or at least to get a good idea of what the chances are. I look at her as a total stranger and when I do I am convinced she will never come back. But then there are signs that do not make sense. She moved out over a year ago but the OM and her have not moved in together and have not introduced the children. This leads me to think something is stalling. So, then I tend to think should I still hold out a little longer to see what happens. If I only had a crystal ball.

Thanks for sharing. Oh yeah, I also like to hear the opinions of others on this as well.

bravo to rpynne and treborose!

Thanks for your thoughtful and intelligent input!

As a WS, what you said really resonates. D-Day was Sunday...he's still committed, I still haven't decided. I'll re-read your posts to think more about it.

I sometimes feel as if I'm on a gameshow: "Do you keep the small amount of money you've already won, or do you trade it for door #2?" Chances are, that door will be a loser, but what you've got in your hand seems to be disappointingly small. Do you gamble it all, or keep what you've got and walk away from the dream of $1 million? That's where I am now.

We have dreams for our lives: one of mine was everlasting tomantic love. I know all the statistics on divorce rates for 2nd marriages and affair-begun marriages. But there's that little voice inside saying, "Come on...maybe there'll be a fortune behind that door!"

If I'd take what's in my hand and invest it in a Mutual Fund, I'd probably end up with that $1 million eventually anyway. That's the Harley guarantee.

I need to walk away from the temptation to gamble. I must keep what I've got and go invest it.

Good luck, guys. May she do the same.
You deserve all the best.

TR and Habiba,

I don't know your whole situations, but I do understand the "wasting my time" question and the "maybe there is something better out there". I think both WS and BS ask these questions.

Not to offend any FWS's, but I think some would be surprised to know that BS ask these questions. I think some WS's view a BS's as afraid, weak, clingy and desparate. Blinded by the love they have and weakend by their dependence. Yes, they love their spouse dearly, but they are not blinded. They have looked behind door #2 and have decided that they would rather repair the damaged house instead of demolishing it. They believe the foundation is solid. This is not fear, because there is risk in trying. It is not weakness, because this is hard work. They may appear clingy and desparate, but its the desparation that comes from wanting the best for another.

To me, time in and of itself does not have value. What has value, is the opportunity of what you could be doing with that time. So what would you be doing if you were magically transported out of this situation. How would that be different from what you need/want to do within your current situation. For me, I could only think of three things that would be different. I could start another R, I could seek vengence, and I wouldn't have to do the work of reconciliation.

Starting another R - Not an affair, but post a plan D. I just couldn't imagine myself being in that big of a hurry to start another R.

Vengence - lash out at the WS, assualt the OP, revenge affair, scorch the earth. Just doesn't seem like the noble thing to do.

Avoid the work - to me an illusion. The work of bettering yourself, healing, learning to be a better spouse, learning to communicate, all needs to be done whether the M survives or not.

Just doesn't seem like I'd be gaining much by throwing in the towel. So much more is to be gained by at least trying to reconcile. Healing, closure, understanding of self. Even more to be gained if the attempt to reconcile is successful. A true intimate relationship and Romantic love.

Let me pause and say, I know some of what I'm saying seems very analytical. I'm not a robot. Deep down I think I'm a romantic. I don't discount emotions. I have deep feelings for my FWW and this often influences my decisions. I've done many illogical things due to my emotions. I just like to occasionally delve into the logic of emotions. Seems like an oxymoron. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, so much more is to be gained by both WS and BS if there is a true effort to reconcile.
This is not just a selfish analysis. You can do the same math for the WS. What do they gain? They get to continue the A unfettered (presumably so it can blossom) and avoid the work.

Avoiding the work is the same illusion as above.

Continuing the A is an illusion as well. There is already much written on this, so I won't rehash it.

TR - To keep you motivated, whereever you are in recovery, pick some small things you'd like to achieve for yourself and your M. Don't tackle Mt. Everest right now. Achieve some small items and use that to build on. If you want some tips of small things let me know.

Habiba - I'm glad to hear you are choosing to try with your M. Please give it a real effort. IMHO, you do not have to committ to an everlasting M right now. Committ to giving it an honest try. Help your BS heal, let your BS help you heal, open your mind, be honest and open, be understanding, patient and give your BS a chance to met your EN's. Don't assume it won't work or last, let the journey wash over you and see what happens

Finally, don't be afraid to let your M succeed. You may find that the something better was right there in your M all the time. I know this may be a scary thought. I think some WS are terrified of facing head on the thought that if their M works, all of their reasons/rationalizations for having the A are blown away. A lot of guilt would come from that. If you find yourself feeling that way, tell your BS. They would be more than willing to help.

rprynne,
How old are you? Even if you are 100, you're far wiser than your years. And the depth of your empathy blows me away. For the second day in a row, you have brought me to tears. Not just a trickle down the cheek. A bona fide flood. Please keep writing. And where's YOUR thread?
--SC

SC - My story is here. There's a link in there back to the early parts. Things were a little rougher on those posts. After I while, I decided to take a break. Take little swim in the river of Rprynne, so to speak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the kind words. I did not intend for any one to shed a tear.

I'm 37. I think I'm wiser, but I wouldn't say I'm wise. Truthfully, I think I could do without gaining any more wisdom. I think people are born with intelligence, acquire knowledge, and have wisdom beaten in to them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I could make do with fewer beatings.

I'm glad to see the word empathy. I've always had the ability empathize with others. (Long story as to why that ability did not serve me so well thus far in my M - perhaps for another thread). Behind honesty, I think the ability to emphathize is the most crucial element to recovery.

I will read up on your situation. I'm glad to see you are in recovery. My FWW posts and reads here every now and then. She posts as MargieThomas, if you're ever interested in reading her posts. I'll certainly keep writing. It helps me sort things out.

You keep fighting the good fight.

Take care

I'd like to thank the people who have replied to my post. I plan to go back and read some of Orchid's posts because I think that might be an interested story. Something for me to do over the weekend when I have more time. Even after 3 years. I was hoping for more examples but I will take what I can.

rprynne,

I would guess that events like this make us wiser if we survive it eh? What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Here is another question that I have often pondered and since I find your cranium to be much like mine in a way I'd like to get your perspective. I have always debated plan B. I understand why and what it is for. However, I've seen some success stories here of the BS being a friend towards the WS. Ofcourse no LB'ing and not shutting them out. Here is the question. If we are to show our WS that we are a better choice and that the benefits of the marriage outweigh the benefits of the OP then how can we do it if we are in a true plan B? If we are in plan B our WS should know nothing that is going on in our life, right? I've always pondered what is the best avenue of approach. Do a true plan B or take the other road and show the WS that we can be better and that our lives do go on without them and that we can be happy.

Any FWS out there have any input on this. What effected you more? Your BS not talking to you and going dark or the fact that he or she is moving on and enjoying their life better than you.

To be honest, I have not really put a lot of thought into Plan B. I've known it was/is never really an option for me. SH even told me that.

As I think about your question though, Plan B is no longer about showing your WS that you are a better choice. You've already done that during Plan A. Plan B is about showing the WS what it would be like without you and preserving whatever love you have left for your WS.

I would not advise a plan B until and unless your love bank is empty or nearing empty.

I'm short on time tonight, I'll ponder the question further and perhaps write a little more.

TR - As I said before, I pondered this a little bit more. As I think about Plan B, I see that it has 2 general purposes.

Let's first be clear that both Plan A and Plan B are about ending the A. I've seen some who ask is plan B appropriate when the A is over and they just aren't happy with the recovery thus far. I don't think this is your situation. But for the record, IMHO, this is not correct use of plan B. Second, Plan B is not to be entered into wily nilly. Its a serious step and a step of last resort.

Plan B
1) Is to protect you and what amount of remaining love you have for your WS
2) To give wayward spouse an idea of what it would be like without you.

Let's skip point 1 and talk about point 2. They way I think about this is each person needs a certain amount of deposits in their love bank every day. I kind of refer to this as a tank that needs to be filled. (I talked about some of this on another post).

When the A is active, 2 people are filling that tank. It may not be getting completely full, but two people are filling it. I think when you are debating Plan B you should consider what percentage of that tank are you currently filling. 50%, 75%, 25%, 0%?

Just a quick math lesson here, but keep in mind, what I'm saying is if the WS's tank is only getting half full on a daily basis, and you are contributing half of that, you are only getting 25% of the job done. In the following, what I'm referring to is how much of their daily needs are you meeting in total.

I would think that if it is below 50%, plan B is not an option yet. This is what Plan A is for. To move you up from how much of that tank your currently filling to where your are filling 100%. To encourage a WS to end the affair, you have to be meeting at least 50% of their total needs. Again, this is not the same as saying that if you do just as much as OP, you will be successful. The 2 of you combined may still not be completely filling the tank.

I think in these situations is when the WS agrees to end the A, but is not convinced that the M is the right answer either. i.e. Their needs weren't met in the M, they still weren't met when they added an A, there must be something more.

Anyway, if you have done a good plan A, you get to the point where you are meeting 50% of the total. Now, as your increasing the amount you contribute, most likely the OP is not increasing, and given exposure, confrontation, some of their contribution has even declined. But, they are still contributing something. So some WS may say, well this is nice, I'm happier than I've ever been before, my BS is doing more and more, and I still have OP. Why should I change a thing. Your classic cake eating. (to be fair, I don't think all WS neccessarily do this thinking. They are being bombarded with loving actions, and they may be confused or undecided). In any case, after Plan A has got you to at least 50%, if the WS is still in the A, plan B is now a viable option. I'm talking minimum, because IMHO, if you aren't at the barrier of point #1 above, then keep working towards 100%, which by definition means the affair was ended via Plan A

Anway, at 50%, the math works. (Yes the math may also work at lower levels, but this requires an assumption about how much the OP is meeting. If you want to eliminate that as part of the calculation, get to at least 50%) If you were meeting 51% of the WS "happiness" needs on a daily basis, the absolute most the OP could have been meeting is 49%. That assumes the WS is/was completely happy with the situation. Which is a doubtful assumption. Let's say they were getting 75% of their total met and you were 51%. For the sake of arguement, I'll use this scenario the rest of the way through. 75% happy, 51% from BS, 24% from OP. Kind of the target amount you would want to get to in a plan A, assuming Plan A would not get you to 100%. If you go to Plan B, two thirds of their source of happiness is gone.

Wow, imagine the chaos this creates in the A. WS has just lost the majority of their happiness. At first they may feel okay. The elimination of your exposure and confrontation gives them a short term shot in their daily happiness tank. But its only a one time shot. (you don't do plan B's mulitple times - I think this is why people should think long and hard about Plan B. If you keep breaking plan B, you keep filling that tank by your daily actions and repeated quick shots in the arm that comes from being given that freedom boost). Anyway, after the initial shot, the WS inevitably starts to notice I'm missing two thirds of my happiness. They start expecting OP to fix that problem. (BTW, IMHO, this is withdrawal. - I'll speak more of that below). What a job the OP has now, they have to triple their contribution, just to make WS as happy as they were before plan B. Most OP won't accept that challenge, if they do, they usually fail. (Some logic to why most M's that begin as A's fail within 5 years). I won't go into why they usually fail. Maybe its their committment, maybe the baggage of the A creates an unrealistic expectation, etc, etc.

I don't view world with such coldness. I don't think people calculate these things consciously, but they are the foundations of the decision criteria. They feel them, they react, and they may never even know that they made these decisions.

Anyway, the math is crushing. So when your debating plan B, I would strongly consider the math. Are you to a point where you are meeting a total of 51% of her total needs? Have you been doing that long enough, so that your WS has grown accustomed to the new total level.

Okay, now all of the above is moot if you have no more love for your WS in your love bank. Back to point 1. If you have no love left in your love bank for WS, you can not achieve the target level I described above. You just won't care to do it. Plan B done in this circumstance, is just to protect whatever love you have left, in case the WS does change their mind.

Will the WS change their mind if you haven't reached the 51%. They might. Is it less certain, absolutely. This is why it is essential to do plan A and a good one, first. This gives you the best odds. But even without a good Plan A. Plan B may still work. It just doesn't have the highest odds and I would not recomend plan B unless/until your love bank is empty. I say it may still work because the math is still there. Even if you were contibuting 25% and the OP 50%%, there's still a 25% gap that comes with Plan B. That math is not quite as crushing, but it's still there.

Finally, some may ask, okay if the WS was getting only 25% met by OP, when they end they A, they still have a gap. Of course, this is withdrawal. As alluded to above, withdrawal is most likely going to happen regardless of whether they go with OP or BS. Usually the OP is going to put up with it, but the BS understands and will help. Also, if you've done a good plan A, WS is much easier to overcome in the M.

These are just my opinions. Happy to discuss.