Hi AGG. Not that I'm keeping track or anything but as I remember you & G were having a weekend away then the baby issue was going to be discussed. Have the two of you found a resolution?

Curious minds...

Seems AGG is too busy, so I'll answer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Negotiation period done and now in phase of accepting
everything
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


n'est-ce pas? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Could be...

Ugh, je ne sais pas...

No, we are definitely not in Acceptance yet, and I am not sure we are even in Negotiation. I know that I am deep in Uncertainty, and am preparing for Negotiation (we did discuss some of the issues on our vacation, but not the baby one). But, since our negotiation has not really been heart to heart yet, for all I know she is still in Infatuation stage.

We had a great time on vacation, but it also continued the same trend I saw earlier - when we are together, things are great, and I adore being with her. But when I am up and she is in her 4-5 hour "lag" time of sleep and getting ready, I start going stir crazy and building resentment. So, it'll take time to figure out which side will prevail <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I know that she won't change very much. In fact, she sent me an e-mail after the trip saying how much she appreciated that I was willing to put up with her "getting ready issues", and was not trying to change her. I of course noted that this represented a shift from her prior statements that she wanted to change these things about herself. So I replied that while I do not want to change anyone, we still need to see how the 5-6 hour time difference between us would work out longterm, and if we can function as a family that way. But realistically, I expect that this will be a question of whether I can accept her as she is, rather than will she be able to change.

Still, the big elephant in the room is the baby issue, and I will need to bring it up in the next few days, whether it comes up naturally or not.

AGG

I'm sorry to hear G is not working harder (working?) to help meet you half way with your schedule differences.

The sleeping/time getting ready stuff would drive me crazy! It seems like such a waste of time not to mention it just can't work in a family situation.

You must have a great time with her when she's up & around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It seems the big issue is her now expecting you to accomodate her sleep/getting ready schedule. The fact that people are different is fine but with this big difference & her not making the effort to change...doesn't look good. Top that with the baby issue... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well, there is the rub <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. When we are together, I absolutely adore being with her - we are totally on the same wavelength, we laugh at the same things, we view most things the same way (politics, money, recreation, etc), we "get" each other.

She loves my kids, they love her, I really like how we spend time together - both as a couple and with my kids. I never ever get tired of being with her, and I have never had that feeling with ANY of my previous GFs - and lord knows there were plenty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I simply cannot overstate how great I feel with G compared to all my previous GFs.

So, I don't want discount the importance of that feeling. It is deeper than some rose-colored infatuation, because I am clearly not in that stage anymore. Yet I love being with her, every waking (hehe) moment.

I think (hope?) that if we can clear the baby issue, that I will be able to learn to accept her as she is. It is hard for me (ISTJ) to change my views of what is right or wrong <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but the fact remains that there are many others living in happy marriages where schedules may be shifted, etc etc. I am just not sure that is is a deal breaker, if everything else falls into place. KWIM?

Anyway, I think that is the bottom line for me - I want to see if I can learn to accept her as she is, and enjoy our time together (which we do) instead of obsessing about the time apart. As it is, when I think of how it would be if she were up at 8am, she might well resent some of my "vices", such as going to the garage to work on the car, or crawling in the attic working on the house, etc. Instead, perhaps I can learn to take advantage of this "apart" time and use it constructively, and then enjoy our couples time when she is up and about.

As I say over and over, time will tell. But, we gotta clear the baby thing first.

AGG

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
Oh, I was wrong; no negotiation at all
just... khm...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />



Wierd... IMO, "the baby thing" is 'the least important'...
i.e. if she changes all other main (wasn't three? plus some issues related to your 'children-priority 1st') 'issues', a baby would come just fine...
And opposite, 'no baby' with other things remaining the same... hm... (btw, why are you giving up meeting her half way?? afraid to lose if you ask/negotiate? afraid of answers and her 'priorities'? I don't get it, really... i.e. you still have chance to have more & enough, for what's now enough won't be later on, plus all 'issues' will get quite worse if not resolved before M... but you know this for you are advising here the same?...)

You know it is so hard to find someone who "gets" you and whom you love being around, so hard in fact that I think learning to accept the differences in the one you find... who you actually do feel this way about IS the answer.

...but since you are kind of looking for a person to fill a certain role you have in mind for her, you have this issue of wandering if accepting is in fact settling.

I don't think so...let her fill the role which will be created in your life (and your childrens) life in what would develop naturally.

I mean you are looking for a partner for yourself, correct? Your children already have a mother, right? (I don't know your whole story about their mom so I could be wrong here) So that is not her role to fill.

It used to bother me that my exSO slept later than me, and I felt very resentful of this...to the point I failed to see all his many very wonderful qualities, and that was MY failure not his.

But as you said, only time will tell.

AGG, I've gone back & forth in my thinking about your situation with G.

My first inclination is to say go for it, just as weaver has suggested. I agree that having a person you feel so connected to is one of the most important factors. However, when you stated your uncertainty about whether you could live with the differences or that G would be able to change, it appeared they were big enough issues to be deal breakers.

I dunno. As you said time will tell. The fact that you have felt resentment while away for the weekend does need serious consideration.

I really like your idea of doing your activities while G sleeps. It does raise the question of when she will do her activities. She will have to do them when you would like time together or can she do them while you sleep?

As much as I'd like to have a man in my life I know I wouldn't want to be in your shoes having to make such difficult choices. Except of course for the times you're together & how you speak about them.

I guess I've taken the long winded approach to say, enjoy, take your time, pay close attention to what really bothers you, & don't be too quick to toss away something that sounds special.

What about this AGG?


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Wow, now those are red-flags to me.

B2M:

Maybe I need to clarify - the baby issue is that she seems to want one, and I do not. Since even Solomon could not find a good way to split the baby, to me this is not a negotiable, but rather a possible deal breaker, unless someone changes their mind (and I won't). So, I think that this is the issue that should be tackled first.

IF we can find a solution that would be mutually satisfying to both of us (i.e. we both agree to "no babies"), then we can negotiate the others, because frankly I do see lots of room for acceptance and compromise.

So this is why I see the baby question as the most inmportant; the other stuff we can work with and see. Make sense?

weaver:

Thanks for the perspective weaver, and I agree that this is something that *I* will need to change my outlooks on, rather than her having to change her habits. I do think that there is a good chance that I can adjust my thinking on this, and I think your example supports that. I already see that I am getting more and more used to her habits as time passes, so that is a hopeful sign. I'm not quite accepting yet, but I can see myself getting there in time.

nams:

Thanks for your thoughts, nams. This is precisely what I plan to do, if we clear the baby question. I do see that I resent her habits less and less every week, and am getting more and more used to her as she is.

At the same time, I see how happy we all are when we are together, and that counts for a lot in my book. Given what I have seen in my past few years of dating, G is the closest to "it" that I have seen. Having some annoying habits is much better than dealing with mental illness, dishonesty, and lots of other icky stuff I have seen in the past. So, I really want to try and see if I can change how I perceive G's habits. And, if she happens to actually make some changes, that'll be icing on the cake.

BTW, there is no question that I do see some small changes in her. She no longer gets up at 2-3, but is ready around 10-11. I know, still much later than me and the kids, but certainly more tolerable. And she has made the effort to get up early when we had something going on in the mornings, so this may end up being the logical compromise - when we have something going on in the mornings, she'll join us; when we don't, she can sleep in and I will do my activities.

In one of the best compatibilty books I read, "Will Our Love Last?", the author lists three Compatibility Dimensions: Practical Dimension (e.g. do you like similar foods, similar money habits, etc); Sexual Dimension (e.g. how compatible you are sexually, physically, etc), and Wavelength Dimension (do you "get" each other, and do you view the world similarly). Interestingly, since it's rare to be compatible in all three, he says that if you had to choose, the most critical one would be the Wavelength Dimension, because that is the foundation for either "getting" each other or constantly wondering how on earth your partner could be thinking what s/he is thinking. So, with G, I see our issues as Practical (sleep habits, clutter), while we are very compatible in the other two <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. So, going by the book's advice, I am willing to keep trying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

DW:


Sure, fair question. The answer is that we had a chat about this early on, and I explained my outlooks on this to G, and we seemed to reach an understanding. I told her that I will never be like the dad in Cinderella, and she agreed that I should not become one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Since that time, I have not heard anything from G that concerns me in this regard (although if I did, that would probably be a dealbreaker at this point).

Keep in mind that these statements from her came when she had only met my kids once or twice. By now, she has spent tons of time with them, and I can see a relationship developing between them, and it is a great one. They always hug each other, she talks very well to them, they clearly enjoy each others' company, and I see no sign of G being resentful. Rather, I think now that she has spent time with them, she is attached to them, and she feels much better about having to "share" me with them.

She voluneeered to go to my son's baseball game with us last weekend, she volunteered to watch my daughter at home while I took my son to practice, and she volunteered to drive my kids to their schools at 7am one day this week when I had meetings. She found two separate child-oriented performances in the area that we ended up going to. All of this suggests to me that we cleared that hurdle, and that she is accepting of the arrangement. I could be wrong, but that is what I see.

I think initially she was "clueless" about dating someone with kids, so I view those initial words as cluelessness rather than bad intent. And I think that now, after dating me for months, she is "getting" what it means to date a single dad, and she is OK with how it is working out. I guess I call it part of dating and learning. Does that make sense?

AGG

Ok AGG, now I feel better, cuz I know you were just waiting on pins and needles for my approval <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I thought those comments she made were recent, and I could feel myself screaming "Danger Will Robinson Danger!"....

Looks like things are progressing nicely.

Hopefully the "baby" issue will not be an issue....

GL!
DW

AGG, I've laid off this whole G thing, but here is where I have to throw my big ole RED FLAG in the air, and it ain't at G.... It's at the situation with the kids... You have a BIG ISSUE out there, a deal breaker. Heck the issue is so big to you that you've admitted that either she changes or she has to kick rocks. Yet you are continueing to let them attach and bond with her... So if it doesn't work out OUCH to them.... IMVHO, a matter of such grand importance should have been put to rest before the introductions and attachments.

Buddy, you know I love ya, but I think you're trying to put a round peg through a square hole on this one and keeping your eyes shut so you don't see it ain't fittin'.....

DW:

Hehe, how did you guess?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Understood... But yes, these comments were made over a month ago, and she really was brand new to "dating a single dad".

LH:

Hey Bill, I've been wondering if you were ever going to chime in, but I'm bummed that you decided to wait until now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But OK, I'm glad you dropped in.

OK, since you seemed to have followed the whole story, you know that the "baby issue" sort of came out of the blue. I thought we had that base covered, but obviously not. And yes, it is a potential dealbreaker.

But as far as the issue of letting her bond with my kids, I disagree with ya <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. This question (do we let a new SO meet the kids) has been discussed at length on these boards, and I still maintain that I cannot fathom the idea proposed by some to wait on introducing the kids until the decision for marriage is almost made. It makes no sense to me - kids are part of the package, and dating without seeing your SO's kids is sort of like dating without seeing their house, their friends, etc. It is literally seeing only a small portion of the full picture.

I agree that if this doesn't work out, the kids will be bummed. So will I. But, hmmm, I believe that this is part of life (and don't get me wrong, I am not one of those "kids are resilient" people, I hate that phrase). But, my kids understand that dating is a process which may or may not lead to marriage, and in some ways, I think that even if this does not work out (as has happened with a couple of other women they met), that there is something to be learned. If things don't work out with G, I actually think that a chat with my kids about the reasons may be useful to them for when they start dating.

Attachments, yes, it's hard to break attachments. But, heck, I get pets for my kids, knowing full well that they will die after the kids get attached to them. Is that bad? In case of G, at least there is hope that this will be a longterm thing, not like a 1-2 year hamster. Is it better to have a relationship that provides love, comfort, and joy for a period of time, than to avoid one? I don't know the answer, but I am not sure that it is as simple as you make it sound.

When I dated women without "exposing" them to my kids, it was simply "dating". I didn't feel like the kids were benefiting. Frankly, I felt somewhat selfish, and I felt creepy as if I was sneaking behind their backs, maintaining a double life. With G in our, and I emphasize OUR, lives, it feels much more rewarding and happy and good. I enjoy sitting around with everyonie in the family room, instead of having to pick up a phone and speak in hushed tones when a GF calls. I much prefer this way. And I think that my kids like to see me happy and dating, and they like their interactions with G.

So, yes, it will be a bummer if it does not work out, but knowing my kids, their mindsets, and their personalities, I am going to choose the side of "having loved and lost" over "having never loved", if that is what it comes to. And I refuse to get into the nightmare scenario that I see with the "no kids" approach, that of getting to know someone to the point of considering marriage, and THEN introducing the kids and having it blow up. No thanks.


You may be right, Bill, and I guess my only answer is that I disagree. I see issues, I see potential dealbreakers, but nothing that tells me right now that this is a lost cause. I do not pursue lost causes, and don't plan to. With the exception of the baby question (which like I said came up recently and needs to be addressed, agreed), the other issues are, to me, open to negotiation and compromise.

In the meantime, we are all enjoying a relationship (yes, including my kids), and I see nothing to be apologetic for.

AGG

AGG, you seem to going about this in such a healthy way. Giving time for knowing each other better & open discussions about what the two of you see as potential problems is really all you can do.

I used to have one foot in the "don't introduce" camp but I've come to feel as you do. This is not due to a man in my life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but because I believe kids benefit from caring people in their lives.

A parade? No. Lots of "serious" SOs? No.

If things don't work out with a BF or GF the way we talk about it with our kids is what will be beneficial to them.

Well AGG, one thing about you and me, is that we see what we see, and we've been posting to each other long enough that we can agree to disagree....

And I do hope you know that I do wish nothing but the best for you and yours.....

Manly Hugs....

nams:

Thanks, I sure hope so. It would be nice if we had all the answers right away, but we don't. So all we can do is take it one day at a time and see what picture emerges. I certainly don't see the forest yet, just the trees.

And no, there is no parade of SO's, G is only the fourth woman they met in the past 5 years. Not too bad IMO.

LH:
Bill, absolutely, I know you want the best for me, and I appreciate it. Really! So while I do not necessarily agree that it is obvious that this is a "square peg in a round hole" situation, I know that there are obstacles to be worked through. That's what I am doing, and I am not blind.

Anyway, I know you mean well, so thanks, and manly hugs back to you!

AGG

Hey, I want a manly hug! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not from you guys, you're taken. And not the double pat on the back then quick pull away either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />