Didn't want to threadjack. I keep the home PC logged on as gemela except when I use it to post. I do that so that it will be ready for her 24/7 in case she wants to post. She is no dummy on PC's but lacks practice. I am just trying to make it as seemless for her as possible.

And, no, I still don't read her posts.

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't realize I was logged on as gemela until I saw the forum thread listing. It is 4:45AM, there is no way gemela could possibly post at this hour. She doesn't even know 4:45AM actually exists. I've tried to assure her that it does but she doesn't believe me since she's never seen it for herself.

Haha. Well, when I saw her name (and giving advice, yet) I was very surprised. Usually that is a good sign of the beginning of recovery. I've noticed that when folks first come here they are so caught up in their own problems that they don't post to others.

When they start posting to others, it is a good sign.

By the way, I didn't tell her she is a tad bit spoiled yet. I'm thinking about how to word it.

She and I haven't spoken since noon yesterday over the phone. Probably best.

On my way out the door of MC, MC told me she wanted to call WW to come in for IC. I said that would be good because otherwise she was getting the majority of her advice from SIL who has been in an A for 10 years. MC was shocked. She had no idea SIL was not married. She reprimanded me for going to visit them on vacation and allowing DDs to stay under that roof. Talk about adding insult to injury. MC sort of knew the facts but never pieced it all together since WW always talks about SIL's OM as her "husband".

Oh I wasn't going to post this but I just don't care any more. I know Myrta has seen it anyway. Get your roommates to translate for you. Obviously SIL's situation is "unique". It is not really an "affair".

Hope this pastes well:

Chat between SIL (Karina) and me.

Karina> hello someone there
Traicionado> yes I am here. Karla is asleep.
Karina> hi robert
Traicionado> hello
Karina> i sent you an email
Traicionado> to what address?
Karina> did you read it
Karina> --------------- (email address blocked out)
Karina> i think
Traicionado> I'll go look
Karina> ok
Karina> is just for see if you like the idea to pay an all inclusive in cancun just for tree days because the four is free
Karina> miercoles, jueves, viernes y sabado
Traicionado> I read it and it sounds great. Go ahead.
Karina> we can visiti in thre first days cozumel, or isla mujeres, and see the dolphins in Puerto aventuras and 3 day we can go to xcaret and visit playa del carmen is on the same rute
Traicionado> Girls want to swim with the dolphins. I want to go to that island that is full of all women!
Karina> ok, i will pay for we three mama, oscar and me, when you arrive with us to cancun you pay
Karina> jajajajaja
Karina> im sorry i can found a cuple for you will see
Traicionado> Isla mujeres is full of women. right?
Karina> no thats a joke como se escribe broma?
Traicionado> broma = joke
Karina> solo tiene el nombre creo que si hay mujeres pero es solo el nombre
Traicionado> lastima...
Karina> we can drive in carritos de golf en la isla
Karina> si lastima!!!1
Karina> pero en cancun hay muchas jajajjaja
Karina> como van las cosas en casa?
Traicionado> Vale is driving our golf cart here. We all go together and Karla and I play and the girls caddy
Karina> very good idea
Traicionado> Karla is taking her medication so I don't think she is depressed all the time. She seems happier. She is starting to talk to people on the Marriage Builders web site so she is starting to talk to women who have been in her situation. I think it is early but it is starting to help. Right now we just need time. I think Karls has not been calling Dominic for a few weeks now. I can't prove it
Karina> lets find a direccion where i can make the reservations for the girls to swim with the dolphins
Traicionado> But I don't think she is calling. That seems to help her a lot. It is when she is calling him that she is so screwed up.
Karina> i told you what you both need is time
Karina> como se escribe ambos?
Karina> my english is getting poor
Traicionado> Yesy we need time but the clock restarts every time she call Dominic. What Karla needs is time. The longer she goes without calling, the better she will be. The better she is, the better we are. That is entirely her decision.
Traicionado> both = ambos
Karina> silvina tiene examen maٌana de ingles, sabe la pronunciacion pero es muy dificil la escritura
Traicionado> Even for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Karina> pero aun karla sigue hablando con Dominc?
Traicionado> I don't think so. If Karla were still calling, and I find out about it, I will send her to him. Karla cannot stay here if she continues to call Dominic. That is an absolute rule.
Karina> not to him robert please sent her to mexico, she is not from england, i dont think she will call him again
Traicionado> As I said, that is her choice. I don't think she is calling and I think she is starting to feel happy again. I don't think she is planning to call him either.
Karina> she call me days ago, did you recording the conversation?
Traicionado> I don't record her conversations.
Karina> the last conversation i had with her, i told her many things like
Karina> no haga cosas en las que se va a arrepentir mas tarde, sobre todo por las nenas, le dije que si se separan ella tiene que volver a mexico no a inglaterra aca esta su casa y su familia
Karina> y sera tiempo para que trabaje y volvamos todos a creer en ella
Traicionado> I don't really care where she goes but you are wrong. Her family and her house are not in Mexico. Her family and her house are in Saudi Arabia. That is what you miss entirely. You are not her family - we are.
Karina> me dijo que si que no me preocupara, vamos a ver!! estamos todos pidiendo por Uds, que todo se mejore sobre todo por vale and vane
Karina> en caso de que se separen, ella no tiene nada que hacer en inglaterra te repito yo se que su familia son Uds, pero si llegan a separarse ella tiene que volver aca por que aca la vamos a ayudar somos su familia
Karina> remember los lazos de familia aca en mexico son muy fuertes, familia significa mama, papa, abuela etc,
Karina> por que crees que yo solo voy a argentina de vaciones, por que oscar quiere ver a su familia, eso implica todos hermanos sobrinos y eso es muy lindo
Karina> su primera familia somos yo, silvi pero estan sus papa y su familia en argentina
Traicionado> I understand the importance of the family. But when you get married, you leave that and start your own family. If Oscar moves to Argentina, do you stay in Mexico with mama and papa or do you go with Oscar? Who is your family?
Karina> i will go with Oscar but i will came to mexico to visitt the rest of my family
Traicionado> If you think that you, mama and papa are Karla's family and I am just a hobby for her, your idea of marriage is totally screwed up. Karla comes to visit you in Mexico but she does not abandon her "family" to go live with you. That is the point you are missing.
Traicionado> If Karla thinks that her Mexico family is more important to her than her Saudi family, she should never have gotten married to begin with.
Traicionado> You know how your father treated your mother. DId your mother ever abandon the two of you so she could go be with her family?
Karina> No, estas un poquito equivocado, no soy su familia,, somos parte de su familia, y ella esta aya contigo y las nenas desde hace 5 a&#1612;os por que ustedes son su familia, nosotros como su familia si llegaran a divorciarse o separse somos quienes la ayudariamos, Karla siempre nos tiene presente a su familia de aca de mexico por que nos quiere tambien a nosotros
Traicionado> That is great and I am happy she has that. Why do you think we are going to get divorced? Who said that? I am trying to keep the marriage intact. It seem to me you are the one who is more interested in divorce.
Karina> solo te estoy diciendo EN CASO DE QUE llegara a pasar algo!!!!! no estoy diciendo que ya estan divorciando
Traicionado> Go back and read your own words above. I will copy them for you "aca esta su casa y su familia" . How can you say I am a little mistaken. These are your own words

Karina> tu "casa" es mexico y familia mama, papa y yo, o no somos parte de su familia?
Traicionado> I'm sorry. I thought her casa was her with her husband and her daughters.
Karina> no tienes por que comprarle boleto de avion a inglaterra tu no la sacaste de aya sino de mexico, no entiendo por que insiste en enviarla a inglaterra
Traicionado> I have not bought her a plane ticket to go anywhere. Who said she is leaving. Why are you calling her on the phone and trying to convince her to abandon her family (the Saudi part-time family - not the "real" Maxico family)?
Karina> Robert su casa esta contigo y sus hijas. Pero si llegaran a separarse me refiero que karla no tiene nada que hacer en inglaterra
Traicionado> We are not separating as far as I know. Has Karla told you she wants to separate? Why doesn't she just tell me?
Karina> Sabes una cosa robert, no me entiendes, hace rato me dijiste que si la encontrabas hablando con Dominic le comprabas el boleto a inglaterra, yo te estoy diciendo que si en caso de que eso ocurriera por que le compras el boleto a inglaterra y no a mexico?
Traicionado> But you just said in your phone call with Karla a few days ago that you told her to leave us and go to be with her family which is in Mexico. I already said (go back and read) that I don't care where Karla goes if she goes. I prefer that she not go but it seems to me that you do want her to leave us and go be with you. What does that accomplish?
Karina> leelo tu otra vez no lo entendiste
Karina> no haga cosas en las que se va a arrepentir mas tarde, sobre todo por las nenas, le dije que si se separan ella tiene que volver a mexico no a inglaterra aca esta su casa y su familia

Karina> ahi te lo copie otra vez
Traicionado> I don't have to. If Karla continues to call Dominic, it is because she can't live without him. Your phone call with Karla was days ago - not a few seconds ago in this chat. Why did you tell Karla to leave us because her family and her home were in Mexico?
Karina> QUE SI SE SEPARAN es una suposicion
Traicionado> Why don't you spend more time and effort in trying to keep the marriage together than making plans for when we separate?
Karina> Lo siento robert, me parece que no entiendes mi espa&#1612;ol, JAMAS yo le he dicho a karla que te deje, hojala pudieras escuchar la conversacion que tiube con ella, yo siempre le dije que sus ni&#1612;as estan primero, cCOMO PUEDES PENSAR QUE LE DIJE QUE SE VENGA A MEXICO Y TE DEJE
Traicionado> Well sorry but I don't record her conversations. I do understand Spanish very well. What I think you are confused on is what the word "family" means. Karla, and the girls are my family. I will do anything and everything to defend my family.
Karina> NO no estoy confundida con la palabra FAMILIA, Ustedes tres son su familia, pero recuerda que nosotros aca somo PARTE de la familia de karla y tambien podemos ayudarla, QUE BUENO QUE DEFIENDAS TU FAMILIA
Traicionado> Another problem I see in your logic is that you keep telling Karla her children come first. What I believe is that her family (that is includes me) comes first. That is where I see we have the biggest difference of opinion. I think Karla should be putting the three of us first. You think Karla should put the two girls first. I am not sure where I fit in your line of thinking.
Karina> rOBERT YA ERES MAYOR, Karla lo primero en quien tiene que PENSAR ES EN SUS HIJAS yo le pongo primero a sus hijas por que son unas NI&#1585;AS CHIQUITAS
Karina> yO SE QUE TU LA NECESITAS MUCHO, PERO QUIEN LA NECESITA MUCHO MAS SON LAS NI&#1585;AS, siempre hay que pensar primero en los hijos y mas si son tan peque&#1612;as como vale y vane
Traicionado> So according to your logic, let's say Karla finds a man that she thinks will provide a better home for her and the children, she should divorce me and marry him because she would be doing it for the girls? Do you think a woman should have a disposable husband because she is looking out for the girls' interests?
Traicionado> How does a husband fit into your definition of a family?
Karina> yo no estoy hablando de otro hombre
Karina> donde te dije que karla deberia casar con otro hombre?
Traicionado> If you were actually married to Oscar, maybe you would see it differently. There is a big difference between being married to someone and just living with them. You have never been married. Oscar could leave you with nothing at any moment. Karla will always have the marriage even if she doesn't think she wants it.
Karina> me parece que te estas perdiendo un poco de la conversacion, no teienes por que hablar de mi situacion con Oscar, y para tu informacion, las cosas no cambian mucho entre estar casdo y no estarlo, Gracias a Dios no estoy casada pero vivo muy feliz con lo poco que tengo
Traicionado> I am simply saying that, never having been married, maybe you don't have a good perspective on what marriage means. You are not exactly an expert.
Karina> Tengo los pies bien puestos en la tierra y eso lo hable muy claro con Oscar no estoy casada por que no han querido darle el divorcio pero si fuera por nosotros ya estubieramos casados, siempre a mi Oscar me ha tratado como su eESPOSA,
Traicionado> Face it. Oscar cheated on his wife when he started with you. You are familiar with affairs.
Traicionado> I have always treated Karla like my wife. She has decided to no longer treat me like her husband. I have not been unfaithful to Karla ever.
Karina> No vas a poder hacerme sentir mal si eso es lo que pretendes tu no sabes nada de la relacion de Oscar conmigo, y de su situacion con su ex. asi que mejor en eso no opines, nosotros nos juntamos por que NOS AMABAMOS
Karina> y LO HABLAMOS BIEN CLARITO Y FUIMOS MUY SINCEROS DESDE EL PRIMER MOMENTO
Traicionado> Good for you
Karina> LO QUE TENDRIAMOS Y LO QUE NO, Y CUAL SERIA NUESTRA SITUACION
Karina> GRACIAS
Karina> No soy una experta en Matrimonio pero hasta ahora no le he faltado nunca a mi esposo ni a Oscar ni a nadie
Karina> He disfrutado de 7 a&#1612;os sola con mi familia en venezuela y nunca puse de un lado a mi familia en Mexico Y COMPARTO MUY Lindos momentos con la familia de OSCAR EN Argentina
Traicionado> Good for you

Believer,

Can we kill this thread? I have more than I want already.

I forgot to mention. SIL does pray to God every single night for forgiveness for the adultery so she really is trying her best.

Hey Traicionado....TJ here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />....How is Todd doing? Is he doing ok? He has not posted since yesterday.

Well, good luck with trying to explain things to your SIL. She is heading for heartbreak. Latino men usually return to their wives. Do you know that the divorce rate in Mexico is less than 11%? Much better than here. They cheat, have a "casita" or whatever they call it, but in the end, return to the marriage.

A lot of times they just live together, forever and ever but they dont get married . They call themselves husband and wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Could be Myrta. The ones I know usually have a wife and another woman that they live with. Of course, that takes some money.

If they are living far from their wife, they continue sending money, calling, etc. But they have their amante that they live with.

Mexican men just think that is the normal thing. But they usually end up with the wife.

SIL has been with this man for 10 years, so maybe her chances are better.

I post sometimes on Gemela´s threat. I lived with a man 28 years my senior 14 years ago, uh. I´m from México and I wanted to comment to you about the chat you posted.

It looks like if you were trying to pick a fight, fortunately she avoided a confrontation.

You said that if Karla were still talking to D you would send her to England. Then Karinas says,
-why England I think it is best she comes to Mexico.

What Karina is saying is that in case you want to send Karla to England, it would be better to send Karla to Mx, where her family would support her emotionally.

I think Karina doesn´t mean at any time that Karla should leave you for them. Although family is important in Mx there are many kinds of families. My two sisters first to what is best for their families, husband and children and then, they consider the extended family.

I think you are also misunderstanding Karina when she says that she recommended Karla to think on her daughters first. I think Karina is saying that to her, in the specific context of the past affair, and the addiction to the other man. If in that moment the husband and wife relationship is not enough to keep her from leaving the marriage, then her daughters should be enough reason to try to save the marriage. I don´t see a contradiction between that statement with MB tools of making the WS aware of the implications of an affair and it´s concecuences.

Frankly I think you overeacted to her word and you really didn´t want to understand her explanations.
Considering Karla´s strong relationship to her sister I think it would be wise to try to keep the relationship with her sister on the best possible terms.

Finally the mention of her affair... it sounds a little bit rude, like if you were trying to dismiss her opionions. I would indeed think there is something fishy because nowadays after some years you can get a divorce here even with out the consent of the partner but maybe Argentinan laws don´t allow it. Anyway you mention of it was not very friendly.

You may think that Karina could be against you as a husband and as a father, I doubt it. Although she is not married she has children herself. As much as she would like to coach Karla she would end backing off, but it doesn´t have to be done in a confrontational way.

I think Karla very easily could feel just fed up of her husband and her sister deciding where she should go. Maybe if Karla feels that you respect her enough as not to pretend to through her away as a damaged good but that she´s a person with the power to decide about her life and her choises then she would feel more comfortable to decide to stay, because it was a not impossed situation.

And if I were you I would forget about the discussion of the word family, your woman doesn´t seem to have any confusion about that.

Cordialmente

larousse,

Karina's advice to Karla has been, from day one, leave Saudi and go to Mexico and live with her. I don't get any benefit of fighting with Karina nor pleasure for that matter. All I want her to do is stay out of our business and stop giving Karla advice. If you think I overreacted in that chat, that chat is a continuation of a long history with SIL over this issue. I have that all nicely documented and hidden away on the internet for safe keeping.

If Karla wants to go to Mexico, she is free to go at any time. I'll buy the ticket. I just want SIL to not get involved.

If I considered Karla as "damaged goods", I would not be trying to save this marriage. Karla is the woman I love. I know what has happened. I'll never forget that. I am still trying to salvage the marriage. Why do you think that is?

Myrta,

I replied to you on ToddAC's thread.

Now, can we please kill this thread? If anything more is to be said, I would prefer it on the other thread. I no longer will respond to this one.