JL, amen!

Ok - but we don't all feel that we are all victimized by all men. Now was I victimized by my ex? I think so - I spent 25 years of my life trying to please that man - and nothing I did was good enough. So when my youngest was in college - he more or less kicked him out of the house - sent him packing - and then decided he was in love with his 30 year old co-worker - because they had so much in common.

I always thought that our relationship would get so much better after the kids were gone and we had time for just us - he looked at is as his chance to run. Just wish he had clued me in on that. So yes - I guess I do feel like a victim. But I also feel like my kids were victims - he has done some horrible things to them all in the name of "Love" - Love for the OW of course.

My ex Sister in Law - ran off and left my brother with 3 young girls - but she did have contact. But I had 3 Brother in Laws that left their familes and never looked back - so do I think Men do it more often than woman - you bet but I do know that it happens with both men and women. My sister in law had contact - two out of the three of my brother in laws chose not the see their children at all. As a matter of fact both of those families were adopted by their Step fathers.

I don't know if I have a point - but I know a lot more men that have abaonded their familes than woman.

Happy,

I am sorry for your situation and your right it is not fair, or right. However, how many men actually leave their children and NEVER see them again? Not many. It may be more than women do, but it is still a small, a very small portion of the male population.

Here is something else very interesting and that is the number of men raising children that are not theirs. IT is currently estimated that between 4% to 20% of all children born are NOT children of the man who thinks they are the father. Now should we castigate ALL women or most women for this? Even if the 20% number is correct that would mean only 1 in 5 women do this, or perhaps a few women have other men's children. I doubt 20% but given what I have seen in my life I would bet 4% is low.

What is interesting is that after two years and sometimes less the "husband" is financially obligated for that child for the next 18 years.

My point that is if ALL of my points were accepted it still don't justify me making comments about ALL WOMEN/MOST WOMEN/ WOMEN. It is not correct, it is demeaning, and frankly it shows a level of paranoia that is not acceptable.

Do you see why this whole thing bothers me? NOTHING useful including healing comes from this type of paranoia. I would love to see Nellie heal and have a good, happy, productive life. She would feel better, her children would be better off, the benefits would spread. He H is a jerk based on all she has said about him. Oddly, her H's new W is no better, she supports him and at the least permits him to ignore his children. I don't get that either.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

A hospital in Portland, OR did bloodtests and found 15% of the babies born there were not the children of the regestered "father."

PS: Even though I was not part of that test, I wound up raining a child that was not my bio daughter. I love her as much as my other children, but I still have not forgiven my 1st W. And that daughter is now 36 with 5 children of her own!

JL,

And this is not a generalization?

More than 15% of fathers have custody:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/...ons/000805.html

Your sentence "little wonder men just give up and walk away" implies that you don't find this surprising or unreasonable. I disagree. It seems to me that a loving father would NOT give up and walk away just because it was difficult or painful to see their kids. Parenting is often difficult or painful, but that is no excuse to abandon your children.

What makes you think my life is not productive? What makes you think that my kids would somehow be "better off" if I "healed," whatever that means? Those statements were totally without basis. After my H left I got my second master's degree and a full-time job in a new profession, put two kids through college, and am currently putting two more through college - but that isn't productive enough for you? I have raised two kids who are successful, responsible and nice to be around adults, and my younger children, including the ones with learning disabilities, are developing just fine as well.

You have shared less information about your personal situation that any other long term poster I can think of. Pretty much all I "know" about you is that you have been married for 30 years and that you are an engineer. What basis do you have for thinking you are qualified to so freely dispense advice, particularly to people who may be as old as you are?

Ok Nellie,

Have it your way, you are doing just great and so are you kids. So why are you worrying about what your exh does or does not do? It clearly was not a problem right? You did not need him, and your kids were not hurt by his decisions right?

But, given all of this what justifies your all encompassing statements about men? NOTHING is the correct answer. And you know nothing about me because you spend all of your time moaning about men, rather than helping other people here.

Oh and I am not an engineer, I am a scientist. Although that distinction can be fuzzy at times.

So please tell me again how you justify your all encompassing statements about men??? I realize you are trying the old the best defense is a good offense tactic, but it really won't work. The title of this thread clearly shows your point of view and as you can tell I find it offensive, and I have made it a point in my life to never quietly sit by and let someone go unchallenged with such nonsense. So you are stuck with me everytime you pull this junk.

JL

Everyone generalizes, and there is nothing wrong with that - without the ability to do so, we would not have survived as a species. Not all growling dogs are dangerous, but I would say that it is wise to generalize and assume that they are, and avoid them.

Your comment about implies that you believe this is a common practice - a generalization that I think is unjustified. Some children are overscheduled, but that is true in intact families as well, and I think it is rare for mothers to purposely overschedule their children just to interfere with visitation. It is often the father who wants their children to get involved in team sports, which can consume huge amounts of time. Overscheduling is often prompted by the child's desire to participate in just about every activity that comes along. In any case, there is no reason the father can not see the children just because they might have activities scheduled - many parents of both sexes, whether married or not, spend their weekends traveling from soccer game to basketball practice to soccer game. Many custodial parents would be overjoyed if the NCP had more of a role in transporting/watching activities. (My children rarely participated in team sports, so this wasn't an issue for us).

Of course both I and the children have been deeply hurt, but that doesn't mean any of us ceased to be responsible and productive.

So, you don't like generalizations? Excellent. But we are NOT talking about generalizations Nellie, we are talkinga about gross generalizations. Ones where if you can find ONE case of something happening, then it must be happening everywhere and all of the time.

"Why do men leave as soon as the oldest...?" Is a GROSS generalization that has no bearing in fact. Your myopia with regard to men is rather astounding given your educational background. The people coming to this site are often hurt and feeding their pain with paranoia is NOT a good thing.

As for my generalization about overscheduling I can assure you there are more mother's pulling that than there are father's leaving as soon as the oldest goes to college. That was/is my point. For every horror story you can point out about men, there is a complimentary one about women and some of the horrible things they have pulled on their H's or exH's. I can match you story for story. Yet....

there is no way in the world one can or should make the statement that ALL WOMEN or Most Women, or just women, do this or that. I feel the same holds for men. Just as I expect that any woman that comes to this board should be treated with respect and find an environment that is NOT threatening to her, I think men should be accorded the same respect and treatment. Hence my comments to you.

God Bless,

JL

And you know this how?

I think you are intentionally misinterpreting pretty much everything I say. I am certain you are well aware that I didn't mean that every single man leaves as soon as the oldest starts college - if that were so, the divorce rate would be 100% among families who send their kids to college. I suppose I could have more precisely framed the title of the post by saying "Why do men who leave, leave at a rate higher than that expected if leaving were evenly distributed over time, during the time period beginning six months prior to and ending six months after the oldest child goes to college?" but I think that might have been a bit too verbose.

Nellie,

I will accept verbose and accurate (if that statement is actually accurate) rather than gross generalizations. I have become very weary of them as you can tell and I think they serve no purpose other than to feed "victimhood" for women and give men the idea they may as well do the crime if they are going to do the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But, really rather than stating this ascertain as a fact, it might have been productive to query rather others have seen this happen other than your friend and you.

JL

Geeze, it might be worth getting divorced if my CH has to see his DD every other weekend. That would be an enormous increase in the every 3 months whether she needs it or not approach.

I don't think that CH can't see her because she is "overscheduled". Actually, it's the norm for kids to be overscheduled. Yes, it's too much if it's not balanced. It's good for kids to be involved and their schedule shouldn't revolve around custody. If the child does a sport, there's usually 1-2 practice/week and a game. When you look at the child obesity rates, involvement in sports (running, exercising, whatever) becomes a priority. Kids also have commitments to school clubs, Scouting or their church. It helps for kids to have a connection with their school and/or community. A parent came help out in any of these activities. IF THEY CHOOSE.

My CH left me with one S in college, another there now, DD, a big house, 2 large dogs and the normal flow of bills. He left because he decided to. He isn't involved because he doesn't want to be. It just might interfer with CH's play time.

While some may feel that we do not owe our kids a college education, I think it is one of the best investments we can make. You can't hardly get a job anymore without a degree. It's an advantage our kids need. Loans are nice but burdensome. Do you really want to have your kid start their adult life being $100,000 in debt? That is very typical. Kids can help earn their way but with the cost of higher education, it is nearly impossible for them to do the whole thing.

Remember, our kids will be picking our nursing homes....

Where there are men who divorced and remarried. The home with their wife is just as healthy and wholesome as the home the children enjoy with the mother.

One mother cooperates with her ex and his wife. Result? Happy, well-adjusted kids.
Two mothers schedule the children REPEATEDLY for activities and trips during court-ordered visitation time with the children's fathers. And they don't get so much as a slap on the wrist.
One mother was ok until her ex-husband remarried. Then started telling people (within earshot of her children) their father would forget about them, because he had remarried and would have another family. Their mother stopped talking like that when her boyfriend moved in with her and she had children who wondered if SHE would now forget them. But the damage was already done.
She was the one who left. But her husband bears most of the weight of the divorce -- not just financial support, but dealing with the children's psychological aftereffects of alienation by their mother.

My goodness there are a lot of angry XH on this forum!

If the one mother is cooperating with her X and his wife, chances are the XW is talking to the new wife. Perhaps a generalization but I'd bet the moms are making the plans.

If two mothers are REPEATEDLY scheduling activites etc during daddy time, where are the dads? Why aren't they saying "I'll take Susie to ballet and pick up Johnny from soccer. (or visa versa) In fact, I'll coach Johnny's team and sell tickets for the ballet recital. I'll get off early for the play, bring the costume-ironed crisply and be available to take them on the next no school/teacher-in-service day. Swimming lessions? I'd love to go to swimming lessons."

That's my life as a mom. There is a good reason minivans are often called "Mom's taxi". Parents don't have complete control over activities. Coaches change practices. Games are on different days. For right or wrong, most of us have our kids in a lot of enrichment activities. If the kid wants to be at an activity with his/her friend and it's on the other parent's day, should the parent say "no!"? Will the other parent commit to it?

One year in my Girl Scout troop, I had a little girl with poorly divorced parents. Because of their inflexiblity and bickering, it was a misery for her to be in our troop. I never knew what to communicate to whom. I tried to reach out as best I could but the only truly responsible person was her step-mother. It a troop activity wasn't on the day this girl was with that family, I could count on her NOT being there. She made it through the year and that was it. She is a girl who could really use scouting.

Think about the kids.

grapegirl,

You asked where are the dads?

I couldn't get XW to let me know the girls schedule when we were married and lived together, so now that we are divorced, I should expect that she is a fountain of information?

Sometimes, the CP schedules things without informing the custodial parent, period.

Dad wasn't a good mindreader, and ended up divorced. How are his mindreading skills going to improve living in different homes.

My ex-wife has said that unless the activities were during my parenting time, I was not welcome. I guess she is afraid of a confrontation between me and her affair partner, or perhaps she doesn't want to face the man whose heart she ripped out and stomped into the earth.

But that's just speculation, maybe she just hates me for trying to save the marriage at the end instead of doing those things all along.

How would I know, she doesn't answer the phone, e-mails, hides behind the door during drop offs, refuses to give me any more parenting time.

I agree, it's a sexist question.

Why do people promise to love, honor, cherish, etc in sickness and in health and then leave partners who do love them, even if they don't know how to most effectively demonstrate that?

Why do people think others can just read your mind and know what they should do?

Why do people think that when they have affairs, their partner will not cheat on them like they cheated on their current or previous spouse?

I think selfishness, or at least the inability to see the world in any fashion other than their own POV is probably the cause.

The question demonstrates, to a certain extent, an inability to see the world, and specifically men, as nothing more than cheaters, looking for a reason to bail out.

Yeah, I'm still angry and a bit bitter. She has the affair and gets to take custody of the child, why? Because that's the way it has been here.

Put me down as a dad who desperatly wants to be involved in his daughters life. But I have't found a way to elicit cooperation from her mother.

Where are you moms wanting dads to get involved in their kids life when I'm looking for help in getting more parenting time with my daughter?

If you want dads to be involved, then help and support the dads who DO want to be involved. Celebrate dads instead of labeling us as deadbeats.

You gotta do more than just complain about the deadbeats, you gotta support those who are not. Those of us who voluntarily paid child support without a court order when our spouses where having their affair. Those of us who seek to set an good example of what a man should be, how to keep your word, have good boundaries, who build up our daughters self esteem so they don't have to engage in activities in their teen years wanting "someone to love them."

Someone cited the divorce stats, where approx. 2/3rds and possibly 3/4s are filed by women. The stats for marital unfaithfulness are now approaching even in many of the studies I've seen. On a percentage basis, more women are filing for divorce than we see a percentage of unfaithful men.

Likewise, fewer men are filing for divorce than there are unfaithful women.

Not to mention that I doubt every cheating spouse is having an affair with an unmarried partner. So I really do believe it's closer to an even match with men and women who choose to cheat.

From what I've seen here, when a wife has an affair, she is gone. I don't have numbers, but from what I see here, if she's gone, she's emotionally gone and rarely if ever comes back to the marriage. If the man leaves, the chances are much better that the marriage will be restored.

If you combine that with the divorce rates, I'm convinced that a large part of those women who file for divorce are the ones having an affair, perhaps over half.

I don't know what that all means, but to me it means that men, even men who are cheated on by their wives, still place a great value on marriage.

I know I did.

What did I get for placing a great value on marriage, my wife and family?

I got a divorce I did not want, and court mandated parenting time which is not sufficient for me and our daughter.

And it appears no one gives a damn, I'm just a case number to collect child support from. Heaven forbid I should lose my job, or I will be a deadbeat criminal too.

That's how I feel on the topic. Thanks for reading my rant.

T

Enlightened, where do you live? It seems like a place with pretty antiquated laws. What kind of lawyer did you have? Can you go back and request more parenting time? Are you documenting the things your X does? Her attitude seems unreasonable and unfair. Where I live, a judge or mediator would pay attention to it. Women can not be blamed for the state of the legal system where you live. Could you tone it down a little, please.

In my state, the magic age for a child is 12. At that point, a kid gets a big say in what they want to do and where they want to go. If you can't get support from the courts, perhaps in the fullness of time, your D will open up to you.

From your post, it seems that you are in a very angry place about women. Generalizations about divorce don't do any of us any good. We all see it most keenly from our own perspective. I don't buy your statistics about women filing for divorce. In my case, if it comes to it, I will probably have to do the filing because my CH is a cowardly, conflict avoider.

Don't let bitterness rule your life. Take every moment you have with your D as the gift it is. Find a special activity/hobby/passion that you can share with her. Maybe at first you can only do it for the time you have allotted to you. Maybe later, if your D grows to love the activity, she will demand extra time from her mother to be with you. If you've got tickets to Disney on Ice and her mom won't let her go with you, who do you think is going to take the flack? Can your child's mother really bar you from your D activities?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I sense that you haven't been divorced long. I see your XW as still being deep, deep, deep in the fog. Perhaps things aren't that wonderful with OM.

It doesn't matter if they are male or female, our common enemy are the cheaters.

grapegirl,

I'm not angry with all women. I don't even really hate my ex-wife. I really hate what she has done. I dislike cheating. The stats are what they are. More women file for divorce than men, by almost a 2:1 ratio if not more.

Our DD is 7, and we both work hard at keeping in touch. She is beginning to e-mail me more, and when she remembers, she calls. I cannot always count on my calls being returned, but they sometimes are.

I could spend thousands on a court battle, or I can just save my cash, keep documenting, and have the money available to spend on our DD and saved if XW wants to do battle again.

The laws and the reality of judgments are two different things. Because XW was mostly a SAHM, and because she set precident by taking DD with her when she moved out, "to find herself" the courts tend to go along with precident.

I made the best decision I could have made.

While I'm not happy with the entire outcome, I believe I got solid legal advice. Many lawyers would just say fight, because it enriches them. My lawyer advised that I save my money, take my 6 out of every 28 days, plus holidays, summer vacation, etc, visit her for lunch at school when I can, exercise my first right of refusal as much as possible and keep documenting.

To wait and see if XW softens her stand on "her daughter" and allows more parenting time.

I'm trying to win a more important battle anyway, to demonstrate to our DD that there is more than one way to live your life. I love my DD, but I don't shower her with gifts and be the typical Disneyland Dad, (although we did go to Orlando, FL last summer.)

XW and her parents buy all sorts of gifts and toys for DD. I filled my garage three times with all the junk that XW abandoned at the home for her to pick up. Tens of thousands of dollars worth of stuff and toys that were just left in the basement.

Well, it filled my former in-laws two car garage for a while as XW disposed of the stuff.

I give our DD an allowance instead of buying her everything she wants. So when she wants a stuffed animal, or a toy, or to play video games at the theater, she can decide if it's worth saving her money or spending it.

DD sees Daddy making meals for her, teaching her, taking her to worship service and Sunday school. That's the battle I want to win, to write on her heart that what her mother did was wrong. That we should love her, but not condone the decision she made. That God teaches us otherwise, that when we make a vow, we are bound to keep that vow. That there is more to life than an endless supply of Webkinz stuffed animals.

So when the day comes that she is making her decisions, that she has seen an example of someone who makes, for the most part, good decisions that honor God, demonstrate love for others, and when Dad does make a mistake, he can learn and grow from it.

That's the battle I want to win. I plan on winning this battle.

Not to seperate our DD from her mother, but to show her another example and let her decide how she wishes to live her life.

If (or shall I say when) the affair dies out, and DD sees the devistation, hopefully, she will learn a valuable lesson.

I plan to win where it matters, in the heart and mind of our DD.

T

E.E.
There's no doubt in my mind that you have been a victim of a legal system that typically awards custody to the mother, whereas the father has to "prove" his ability to parent his children. My first husband was an excellent father to our children. He was involved with them from birth on. Not just the fun stuff, but the day to day routine.

I was the one who filed for divorce. I had told him I was changing, how I was changing, and how that impacted our marriage on my end of things. I begged him to go for counseling, individually, and/or as a couple, for about a year. I told him I recognized I was the one who had changed, but that I wasn't willing to accept the relationship as it was. I had been in individual counseling for over 2 years at the time.

My H. ignored me....told me that i could fix it since i was such a good counselor..etc. Kept putting me off. He said he was happy with himself and the relationship. My H. was a good man, but wasn't emotionally available to me. Finally after about a year of this he came out and said "I'd rather blow my brains out than admit there was something wrong with my mind and that I needed to go to counseling." I was devestated.

I hung in for another 3 years because of our young children, and the fact that I was the only one unhappy with the status quo. Why should others suffer? I got very ill..emotionally and physically. And my H. seemed to be more content, because I was more dependent on him, and he didn't have to change. As long as we were physically together, he didn't seem to be very bothered by the quality of our relationship.

I left when I was at the peak of my illnesses. I felt there would soon be nothing left of me to share with my sons, or anyone else. My H. threatened to go for sole custody, out of his anger. Since he had the financial backing, he could have done it. Since I was so ill, he probably could have done it. I reached the point where I told him to do what he was going to do. But, that he was going to be the one to explain to our sons when they got older why the parenting situation was the way it was.

As I said, my H. had always been a very involved parent. He was perfectly capable of parenting our children. There was no way I would not want him to continue to be an active parent. That was a given in my mind! I couldn't imagine there being a question about that. But even if I didn't want that, he still shouldn't have to prove his parenting abilities to share custody, anymore than I had to prove mine. (abuse obviously being the exception.)I have read recently that this can be a reason why more women file than men. The women are more confident they'll get custody of the kids. The dads are aware that their chances are less, and/or they will have to spend exceptional time and money to "prove" themselves. In spite of what rules or laws are on paper about sharing custody, there is still this bias against fathers in most courts.

My H. and I set our difference aside, worked with a mediator, and put our children's best interest first (outside of the pain the divorce itself was causing). People have complimented us on the exceptional co-parenting relationship we have.


There is an issue you raised that I question.



When a woman has an affair, it's often when the marriage has already reached a point of no return. This aspect is changing with greater financial and sexual independence on behalf of women. But, it's still the "trend", if you will. So, she is less likely to return to the marriage having already felt like all hope was exhausted. (No, it doesn't make the affair ok)

Many men will not take their wives back after an affair. They can't handle the assault to the ego of knowing their wife had sex with another man. Betrayed wives don't like the sexual aspect of an affair, but often are more concerned about whether or not there was an emotional attachment.

Betrayed wives are more likely to be willing to work on the marriage. They are more likely to take the WS back. It has little to do with the husband coming back because he's more committed to the marriage. He comes back because the B. wife is more accepting of him coming back, than a betrayed husband is of his wandering wife.

There are exceptions. I believe that you are one of them. I know there are more and more husbands joining this status. There are more and more wives having affairs for the sake of sexual excitement alone, not just the emotional support.

I believe that we as the adults have to start accepting more responsibility for the damage we cause to our children with OUR disputes..not their's. Yes, it takes two to cooperate, but I think many more parents could be aiming for this cooperation even if it they miss the mark a bit..or a lot!. Most don't even seem to try in my experience.

My original attorney told me he couldn't and wouldn't support me in mediating. My H. was supposed to be the "enemy". He said I'd be sorry later because I didn't go after enough. I've never been sorry!

We have a lot of wounds to heal in our country around divorce and parenting.

How I agree with LowOrbit, when he says that ALL people are selfish. I sometimes wish this immutable truth was taught in schools because few parents seem to teach it to their children nowadays.

I am from the UK, and one of the things which angers me more than anything else is George Bush's idea that America is a 'good' nation and countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan are 'evil' ones. That is [censored]. It isn't COUNTRIES, ideologies or religions which are evil - it is individuals - and that means ALL individuals. As Solzhenitzyn said, 'the line separating good and evil runs not between nations, but inside every human heart.'

Hear hear! And THIS is why men - or sometimes women - wait until a certain time to leave their marriage, because they weigh up the pros and cons of what will be best for THEMSELVES. And this usually involves doing what they think will be best for their kids as well, because they get all kinds of feelings of pride, self-satisfaction and genuine pleasure from knowing they have brought their children up well.

My husband cheated on me three years ago, and refused to end things with the OW. He cheated on me because I suffer from multiple sclerosis and was becoming increasingly useless as a wife. But he is still with me. People think what a good guy he is to stay with a crippled, housebound invalid like me; that he is being kind, generous, etc. But he isn't. He is staying because that is what suits him best. He knows he couldn't live with the guilt of leaving a sick and helpless woman on her own. He knows he couldn't endure the horror of what other people would think. He knows that our daughter would totally disown him and never want to see him again. And in addition to these things, there are many practical issues such as finances and the upheaval of leaving the home where he has lived for nearly twenty five years. So he weighs things up, and though it isn't ideal living with me, he thinks it is the better of two evils.

So get real anyone who thinks that people do ANYTHING out of pure altruistic goodness. They DON'T. Even the Mother Theresas of this world do things for their own benefit. Just because we can't understand what such people get out of caring for starving and dying people doesn't mean they aren't doing it for their own selfish pleasure. That's the harsh reality of life.

In answer to your question Alphin, 'But what is wrong with security, with being great friends, with being 'comfortable'? I would have to say NOTHING WHATSOEVER. This is what people always expected marriage to be like after many years until these modern times. But the problem is that we now live in a society where we are bombarded - through adverts, movies, songs, soap operas (and even, I have to say, through forums such as this one) - with the notion that being 'in love' is NECESSARY and ESSENTIAL for a marriage to be happy, and that when that 'in love' feeling has gone, we have the right to go and look for it elsewhere.

This is one of the most dangerous myths of the modern age, and probably the one which is most responsible for the horrendous divorce and adultery figures. We are sold the lie that being in love is the only thing which is really worth having (and true, it is probably the most wonderful feeling we will ever know). But it DOES NOT LAST - in ANY marriage or long-term relationship and that does not mean we have met the wrong person or that our marriage has 'broken down.'

The reason people want excitement and romance rather than security and comfort is, of course, because the former are more interesting than the latter. People are so easily bored these days. They expect instant gratification and for all their desires (they call them 'needs) to be met.

I admit that my marriage hasn't been exciting for probably fifteen or more years. But I accepted that, and didn't presume it gave me the right to break my marriage vows, trash up my family and cause mayhem and chaos for all of us just for the thrills of a few months of extramarital fun or divorce. Sadly my husband didn't see it the same way. He told me he felt 'empty', and so that, of course, meant he was justified in cheating on me in his attempt to feel 'full.'

What he didn't realise was that after the initial thrills of the A had worn off, he would start to feel emptier than ever, and now has to live with the guilt of what he has done for the rest of his life.

I am sure he wishes now that he had settled for dull and boring 'security.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />