My W told me the other night that I do not understand her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> This seems odd to me as I listen to her thoughts and concerns (we still do not talk much so this is not too much of an effort). But, even when I listen, she tells me that I do not understand.

Here goes....what consitutes understanding. Sometimes I think that it means "you must agree with me" which is not right IMHO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> If I do not agree with what you are saying, how can I show her that I understand her.

Thanks for your help.

C-

Is she still in an affair?

I think we need a little more info here.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm not understanding you.

My WH and I have had the same issue, so I know what you are saying. When women communicate with each other, there is a lot of empathy/understanding. This is one of the reasons communication is so important to us--we feel loved/supported when we are understood. Very important EN.

So, you are aiming for empathy. Try to listen to what she is saying and consider what you know of her feelings/values and how this is affecting her from her viewpoint, not yours. So, if she is irritated by something, she wants to know you are listening to her and considering why this matters to her . Basically put yourself in her shoes. So, you are not agreeing, you are trying to understand why it matters to her.

I do not know how well I am explaining it. But, I completely understand your issue. It can all be summed up in one word--empathy. If you learn to do this, you will solve this problem. But, it does not come naturally to men. She does not want you to fix it, she wants to know you value her and her feelings.

also, to add to what improving is saying- we donn't always want a solution to what we are talking about it. Sometimes we just want to be heard.

Still, let us know if she is still in an affair. It really changes things on communication.

Bingo... esp. the last line, right from the Mars/Venus books. Guys tend to want to fix stuff; women, on the other hand, want their feelings validated. I wnet through a huge crisis involving my dad a few years back. All H wanted to do was "fix" it when all I wanted was empathy. Huge blowout resulted. I can't tell you how much damage that did to our M, but of course I couldn't explain my feelings about this to someone who thinks so logically.

Now my H tries to remember to put the fixers inside in check should I express my feelings about something. He still sometimes has a ways to go on validating the feelings, but at least he's not jumping to "fix" whatever is broken.

Oh, I have learned this one the hard way. Guys are looking for the action words, women are looking for the feeling words. So, guys...you need to listen for the feeling words and if your wife isn't saying them, that is what you have to get her to say. For instance my wife was upset about me not getting a project at the house done in the time frame I promised. Well it had nothing to do with the project, nothing to do with me, it's just that she didn't feel "important and respected" because I wouldn't hire someone to finish it up so she didn't have to live with a mess. Once I understood it was about her feelings and not me it made a world of difference in the arguement. Before I felt like I was trying to hurry, trying to get it done, trying to please her by negotiating....but that wasn't the point. It was listening to her feelings first, then talking about what needed to be done later.

Yep - this could be classic Mars/Venus stuff.

So much for "Intelligent Design" huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

UNLESS - she's in LaLa Land in an affair. THEN - speaking of the cosmos - she's under the influence of the Mothership which just compounds the Mars/Venus stuff.

I think it's even more complex than that. I think fixers, whether male or female, (don't we see a lot of female fixers on this site?) are people who are vulnerable to contagion of emotions, and what they are really trying to fix is their own feelings of anxiety aroused by a loved one's problems. That's what makes them so annoying-they try to fix things without really knowing what they are doing, like the do-it-yourselfer who tries to change the washer in a leaky faucet and winds up flooding the kitchen and causing a $300 plumbing bill. In order to help someone fix a problem, you have to listen long enough to understand what the problem is and what remedies have already been tried, but doing that is what sends the fixer's anxiety level through the roof.

Thanks for the replies everyone. No, my W has not really had an affair (my sitch). What she has IMVHO is an obsession with the internet and her new online friends. There is nothing romantic about it and I know this because I have snooped enough to find out (keyloggers and such that she is VERY upset with me over). I have had folks here equate her situation to an EA but I am still fence sittin' on that onee. We have passed through the withdrawal phase back into the conflict phase big time.

I AM A MAJOR FIXER. If it needs to be done, do it or get out of my way and let me fix the darn thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I have been trying to get her to read HNHN for over 2 months to no avail. I continue to Plan A her (sort since there is no OP, just the dang internet) by doing as much to make her happy as I can. However, I get almost nothing in return. I take all I can, then my Taker screws everything up. All the free time that I generate for her by helping around the house, she turns into more IM/email/discussion board time. She has very little to do with myself or my son. I sort of feel that our marriage has no rating on her list of important items.

Here is a prime example: last night I came home and she announced how tired she was. I then proceeded to get 2 loads of laundry done, do the dishes left in the sink, cook dinner and clean up all the dishes from that. I wanted to sit down and watch a little of the hockey game (partially recorded so I can fast foward the boring parts). While I watched the game, she got on the computer. I did not mind at all because I wanted to spend the next 90 minutes watching the game (a full game with fast forward only takes this long). My unspoken hope was, that we could get two nice hours of one on one, undivided attention afterwards. Well, she never seemed to notice that I was trying to talk to her after the game was over. After about 30 minutes, her new best friend (who used to be online and now is IRL) called. They talked until 12:20 AM in the morning. Needless to say I was very hurt by this. When I asked her when she would be done, she acted as though she did not care. Internet/IM/Boards/Friend = almost 4 hours, H and family = 20 minutes at best...go figure.

Our last MAJOR fight (I will not call this an argument as it would belittle the pain) ended up with "you do not understand me." I listen intently. I ask questions to which she has no answer. In fact, her last comment was "you am too analytical" (btw, I am an engineer so this is sort of expected.)

I hear empathy and I mean that I really hear it . I will try and work through that although it will be really difficult for me not to try and fix the problem. I really do not know what "understand" means in her context. To understand (my version), I will take information, analyze it and come with a fix...oh...maybe that's the problem. I wil try to listen and empathize with her. Any other comments are really appreciated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I am trying to finish reading LB so I guess the Mars/Venus book has to be next....<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> OOPs, I have to get back to the work they pay me for!!


Thanks,
C-

Another technique, she is using chat to communicate her feelings to someone.......why not try using the computer to chat with her and see what you can learn? Sometimes writing back and forth is a good way to communicate and listen to one another.

Another thing, if she headed to the computer and you were heading to the TV.....that should have been a warning to you. She was going to communicate with someone, you were going to zone out on a game.

You are getting some very good advice G2KT.

My W and I (I am the WH) went to an intensive two day counseling in December. What we learned has proved to be very valuable. I have not mastered it yet but it greatly improved our communication and my listening.

The "drill" was one of us was the speaker and one was the listener. The speaker's role was to say how they felt. It was not to be accusational but simply a statement and a few supporting sentences. An example might be "I feel overwhelmed because the project has not gotten done. The house seems to be piling up with jobs and this undone project causes a mess." See, nothing accusational, just how she feels. Your response would be not defensive like "But I have been so busy..." or anything like that. It would be VALIDATING the way she feels. You can't argue with that. You can argue opinions but when she says she feels "overwhelmed", "ignored", or whatever, that's the truth. SO, as the listener you would respond with "I hear you telling me that you feel overwhelmed. I can see why you would feel that way with the house being a mess." That is 90% of what she wants. Then you can go into ideas on how to resolve the issue. When you are the speaker, you might say "I feel lonely when I don't get to spend one on one time with you." See how that was no accusational. You didn't mention the computer or accuse her of anything. It is simply how you feel. Hopefully, she would respond with "I can see where you would feel lonely..." and not "But you run off to watch hockey and leave me with nothing to do...".

The tricky part is sometimes really listening to what she is saying to get her "feeling". If she doesn't say, "I feel..." it gets hard. If you are not sure and you say "I hear from what you are saying that you feel beaten down. Is that right, is that how you feel?". That gives her the opportunity to say yes or no and if it is no, to better describe how she feels. It also lets her know that you are really listening to how she feels which again is 90% of the battle.

I hope that made sense. Like I said, it takes practice especially for a "fixer" who might get defensive and wants to overlook feelings and get busy solving the problem when like another poster said "the undone project is likely not the problem".

SNT

Along with the advice to empathise and try not to work at fixing her problems you could also try to consentrate on restating what she sais till she is satisfied that you understand her point of view. Try to forget about what your point of view is for the moment. This does not mean that you are mindlessly agreeing with her just that you are trying to consentrate on what her point of view is.

Got2KeepTrying

Oh dear, I'm a veteran of these 'wars' too... but I'm on the other side.

My H is also an engineer - let me try and explain this to you the same way I try to explain it to him. I don't know if it will work.. it hasn't gotten me as far as I'd like with him. Still, it's another perspective to add to the mix.


My H often confuses agreement with understanding, as well. I think it has to do with the nature of empathy.

I'm not asking him to feel my feelings. I'm asking him to treat me in a manner that is consistent with my stated feelings or, sometimes, manage his expectations about my behavior accordingly. In essence, I want him to learn how to use that information in a way that can predict my behavior and possibly generate some sort of response from him (that I'll view as positive).

First, a non-feeling oriented, real world example: Say you go to your mechanic and he tells you that you have 3% left on your brake pads. That information contains levels of information. The first is the literal measurement: you are within approx 3% of the recommended saftey margin of your brake pads. The other piece of information is the processed part that you do - that information has meaning to you: namely, it might be time to consider new brake pads if stopping your car safely is important to you.

Now, a feeling oriented example: Say I tell my H that I'm unhappy, depressed, sad, melancholy, anxious, worried, irritated, <some other feeling>. That information contains levels of information. The first is the literal message: I'm feeling <something>. The other piece of information is what you can process to DO about the feeling.

My H's natural inclination is to try to 'fix' the feeling by talking me out of it. He either flat out argues with me - trying to convince me that my perceptions that lead to the feeling are incorrect and, therefore, there's no need for me to have the feeling. *shakes her head sadly* That's bad, bad, BAD! It invalidates how I feel, tends to make me even MORE CRANKY, and sounds like you either don't know how to listen or simply don't believe me. It does nothing to convey understanding or empathy. It comes across as argumentative and/or simply dismissive. "You have no reason to feel that way; now stop it.

If that doesn't work - if he can't think of a convincing argument why he can't "agree" with my feelings, then he usually tries to talk me out of it by becoming a cheerleader: "It's going to be fine. You'll get through it. You can handle it." He is probably right. I probably WILL get over it. But, just because I won't feel this way forever, doesn't mean that the feelings that I'm experiencing now have no value or are any less 'real.' I might BE OK tomorrow, but I'm not OK RIGHT NOW THIS MOMENT so can we pay attention to that, please? This response conveys a different type of dismisal, namely: Hey kid, why not call me when you've got some REAL problems. This is beneath my notice.

Finally, if he doesn't try any of those (because I've told him not to do them any more <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) then he just nods and says "Ok, honey." Gets up afterwards and goes about his business acting like nothing's wrong. *sighs deeply* This conveys the impression that he just doesn't give a rat's @ss about what I just said or he wasn't listening. In reality, the poor dear is trying SO hard not to fix something or 'cheer me up' that he doesn't know quite what to say or do.

Which leads me to the final part, namely, what do I actually want the man to do since none of those first responses are appropriate?

Well, let's go back to the first example. When you know that your car's brake pads are down to 3% you know you have to schedule some time for car maintenance in the near future. You know this because.. sometime in your past someone either told you or you looked the information up. You don't have to have someone remind you of this responsibility every single time it happens -- after a while you LEARN it. It becomes automatic. Something you know how to do and are comfortable with.

Well, at some time in the past, your wife has probably been <angry, sad, annoyed, upset, anxious, worried> and she might have even done something to feel better or mentioned something that comforted her when she was feeling that way. We want you to learn how to comfort us (it will be different for each person) and recognize the danger signs that mean we need comforting. We don't want you to analyze the 'worth', 'truth', 'value' or even 'agree' with us about our feelings, we just want your behavior to reflect that you 1.) believe that we're feeling that way and 2.) understand that when we say x, we mean that we need to be comforted by y.

We don't want you to talk us out of it. We don't want you to cheerlead (at least I hate that your wife might like it..). We want you to comfort us in a way that actually DOES comfort us AND we want you to learn HOW to comfort us without us having to tell you each and every time what to do. After so many years together, we expect you to have figured out how to figure it out - much the same way you learned how to ensure the mechanical saftey of your car. That's where we want your analysis and 'fix it-ness' to go! Not in figuring out how to change our feelings but in figuring out how to help us PROCESS our feelings (which is what the process of being comforted is all about... it's the natural process by which feelings are mitigated and changed.)

The second part of understanding comes with expecting us to behave in ways that are consistent with our persona and feelings. For example, if I say that going to a dinner party with certain people is going to be tortuous for me, then I go and, because of my upbringing etc. act gracious and 'nice.' Then when we get home, I would like you to remember what I said before the party and make some statement like "Wow, honey, I know how hard that must have been for you to do. You sure made it look easy, though. Saying "See, honey, that wasn't that bad." simply conveys the impression that after all these years together, you clearly don't know me at all or understand a thing about me.

To summarize:
The two key ingredients of understanding are:

1) applying your analysis to what you can do to facilitate the natural processes of dealing with feelings by learning what your wife needs to be comforted and how she likes to be comforted. (And, when to comfort her.)

2.) Understanding that we share with you priviledged information in order to bring you closer to us. What we say about how we feel is important and, if you want to be really good at this, remember what we said .. acknowledge it positively and understand that you are privy to things that no one else in the room might ever know. You are the keeper of our secrets. We take off our 'public' face and show you the 'private' one that other's don't get to see. Don't get the two faces confused.

Hopefully this is helpful to you. I wish you good luck with this.

Mys

AskMe,



This was something that we agreed about. I have no problem with her spending time on the computer. What I have a problem with is when it becomes more important than our M and our family. The game was over but her activities were just beginning and I could not break through.

I am logged into my IM now waiting for her to do the same. We will see what happens on that.

C-

listen to her and then repeat back to her what she said. if you dont get it right, ask her to tell you what you missed and then repeat it again. it sounds dumb, but it is an eye opening excersize.

and trust me, if you do this and she still says you dont understand her....then its really her fault right (LOL)

All,

WOW... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />...It will take some time to get through all this. I have been trying to work with the "I feel" phrases now for about a month. LovingAnyway pounded this into my head with a couple of 2x4s! Hopefully, this combined with some empathy, will work for now. I do not want to change too many things at once.

Thanks everyone for your present and future comments. Believe me, I am listening more than at any time in my life.

C-

What a true idiot I am. What "You do not understand me" means is "I am a closet lesbian and have been for a long time but I do not want to hurt you or my son." What pure $hit...

My WW has looked me in the eye for several months and told me she was not a lesbian and was not having an EA. Stupid me, I believed. I found a odd thread she was visting called "married-in the closet" and this opened my eyes.

I guess I will be moving my main threads over to the Divorced/Divorcing catagory.

GOD, this is painful. She lied to me and let me spend 2+ very painful months trying to rebuild a M based on lies and deceit.

Please continue this thread. It can help a lot of folks out there.

C-
Thanks for Listening...

Is this a thread she's reading or a thread she's participating in... indicating that she's having that problem?

Mys

G2KT,

Man sorry to hear that. It pains me deeply to read this.

My prayers go out for you and your W. Good luck!

She a full and active participant.