Hi everyone,

I'm just wondering if those of you who are familiar with MB principles can help me get my head around this one thing. A little something my sister said got me thinking. We were talking about WH, and how he's just flagrantly following an A with OW, about the horrible way he's treated me, and she said, "You know, he feels free to do all this stuff because he thinks that no matter what happens, he can just come back to you."

It pulled me up. Surely this is true? In either Plan A or B you are being a "lighthouse" and you are VERY much a certainty, present in the sidelines being either Ms/Mr Perfect, or Ms/Mr Dark Yet Willing to Consider WS's Return. So isn't this license, in a way? Doesn't that make WSs think they can just go on with whatever they want to with the sure knowledge that BSs are on standby?

I'd sure appreciate some insights about this!

No. Plan A and B are for a limited time till your love runs out and you are DONE.

Bigkahuna, I understand this, just as I understand that Plan B is primarily for the BS. I'm just wondering about the effects of the plans on the WSs, whether it's license to go on their merry way. After all, nowhere in Plan A OR B do we say anything like, "But watch out! Because my love might run out!"

I think that's true to some extent - otherwise, what would be the point of the MB plans if they thought they couldn't come back?

A good Plan A, however, is carried out with the BS reminding the WS in a respectful way of bounderies and their need for respect and consideration. The BS IS NOT a doormat! I do think a Plan B letter should state quite clearly that the door is open, that you are ready to try for reconciliaition, but that you are NOT prepared to wait forever.

In spite of this, many WS's think that the BS is prepared to wait forever. Still, when the BS gets fed up with the marriage after trying and trying, unfortunately, that's then the WS's problem - and everlasting regret!

Alph.

Alph is right.

After a good plan A, if the WS does not stop the affair, then Plan B is in order. Kicked off with an excellent Plan B letter stating your love for the WS, and your need to no longer be involved in the triangle.

In my case, I did not do any excellent Plan B's - seven times. WH became used to the fact that he could manipulate me, and continue to ride the fence. It became a game.

Now, at this time, all love for WH is gone. I wish him well. I did all I could to try and save my M. I do wish I had done a better job.

But the heart can only take so much battering before it no longer sustains life - or in this case, love.

An excellent Plan A, followed by a strong Plan B WILL WORK....and if it doesn't snap the WS back to reality, then really, you've given it your best shot.

Best thing I've learned here is "Say what you mean, and MEAN WHAT YOU SAY".

BE TRUE TO YOURSELF.

Definitely DON'T BE A DOORMAT!!!!

K

This is the circumstance. By not immediately divorcing your spouse, you implicitly declare that cheating does not equal the end of the M.

And I'm sure this logic is lost on your husband.

If the suggestion is that you should immediately divorce your partner, well yeah, there is indeed a good argument for it. And it's your right. It is not unethical to walk away. I doubt anybody here, even the biggest kool-aid drinker of them all, would require that you stay if you don't want to, or if you think that the marriage cannot overcome this crisis.

But there are a handful of issues that the suggestion fails to consider.

First. Fighting to protect your family from being broken apart and generously offering to forgive your partner isn't a compromise or a denial of your own happiness. It's not an acceptance of infidelity. It's the opposite; a DEFIANT rejection of the affair mindset of selfishness and entitlement.

Second, attachment. This part is not selfless. It is not "codependence" either. It is your perfectly normal, healthy attachment to your beloved. If someone who claims to support you dismisses the power of your attachment and demands that you simply turn away from it, they're either insensitive or they don't understand its strength. Losing attachments is terribly painful, especially when they're broken voluntarily by a participant, as in an affair. This is what makes the grief of a marriage broken apart by an affair especially hard to take. Take it from someone who fought to save his marriage, and lost. It hurts for a long time, and I doubt walking away right at the beginning gets you out of it, much as your concerned family members might hope it could.

Third. When the affair is a romantic one (vs. philandering)... WS don't use logic. They are not rational beings. Maybe some think they'll toy with the affair, and if it doesn't work out, well, as long as their BS is willing to take them back, they'll go home. I won't say that never happens. But that's not what romantic affairs are really like. Romantic affairs aren't well-thought-out sexual vacations. They're about cathexis, possession, enthrallment, and melodrama. Why do you think you can't convince this formerly decent person that his actions are a horror show? BECAUSE REASON IS LOST ON HIM.

Facile, conventional slogans like "kick 'im to the curb", and "once a cheater, always a cheater" oversimplify and trivialize this situation and they insult the people who suffer because of it.

GC

Regardless of which plan a BS uses, as long as the WS is the WS, it will do whatever it pleases. Why? No remorse.

Not until reality (i.e. $$ issues, etc.) sets in does the WS feel the guilt. Often that transpires into the WS pushing that guilt on the BS. After all a greedy attitude is not designed to face reality nor accept the consquences of it's actions.

So why bother with any plans? Well the BS should, for themselves and their family.

Screw the WS. Yea, that's right.....screw the Ws. No BS in their right mind would ever want a WS in their life much less living in their home, being a liability and a huge guilt manipulating machine.

Yet we see over and over again how many a BS will grovel for the WS to come home.

Ask yourselves....is that what I want? A WS in my house? That's like inviting mice and cockroaches over for dinner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

MB principals are designed to strengthen the BS. So that no matter what the WS tries to throw at the BS, it will slide right off. Oh, it hurts....no escaping it but it doesn't have to appear that way to the WS and it doesn't have to stay that way.

Now the question s/b.....how can a BS be empowered?

L.

orchid,

as usual right on target my friend.

The WS is someone no one needs to have living in their home.

Once th BS is empowered and in control of their own life things can and will change. Not saying the WS will come home but it gives the BS a big head start over the WS in having a happy and fulfilling life.... Thats what these plans will do for a BS. PlanB gives the peace a battered BS needs to heal and grow into a happy , healthy person who can and wll survive no matter the outcome of the marriage.


Hurting

Well put Hurting..... c u r getting it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thanks Orchid ..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Orchid, I love your post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Plan A and plan B are really ALL about how the BS can survive an A BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WS OR HIS/HER ACTIONS. Itis NOT the BS's fault that infidelity destroys his/her marriage, so the whole point is how to survive.

In some cases too much attention is paid to the WS. The BS is NOT the person to do this.

have to run

Orchid hit on it...but I wanted to add something here.

What you are talking about here is "doormat" status. And that is not the case.

Sure, by being there it allows the WS to cake eat and or continue what they are doing. But one thing the Harley's have found out is that...what is the alternative?

WSs dont respond to logic. They dont respond well to ultimatums, educating, or threats while in the fog. It actually moves them away. They also do nto respond to groveling.

So, what does Plan A and Plan B do to the WS? If done right, it first changes the BS. The BS begins to make changes to themselves that are positive...but also cause change in the environment of the marriage. As has been said before...if the BS changes, everyone around them must change.

Plan A exposure and building up these changes in the WS also begin to take a toll on the affair. Because remember, the affair is a mirage. That is why over 96% of them fail to continue longterm. It really is fantasy. So, as the affair begins to unravel, the BS has to do the things that will not repel the WS. So, they stick to their mantra and stick to being that lighthouse.

Eventually Plan B is a move to protect the BS...and the marriage. But it also has the ancillary effect of pulling the rug out from under the WS. Especially if a good Plan A was done!

So, even though the plans actually help at first...for the WS to continue...what is the truth is that while pushing the affair forward, it actually is forcing the affair out of fantasyland and into the light. And an affair in the light is dead!

In His arms.

I couldn't agree more Mort. My WW and OM, are on the way out!! I has only taken 2.5 months of seperation, and the A partners to struggle to have all the needs met! WW and OM haven't spoke in 6 days! But I don't push any talk, WW and me have spent more time together over the last 2 weeks, than since the A was disclosed. The difference now???? No doormat!!

I have been drawing my WW back into my life, first now as a friend....and it will be only a matter of time when I ask her to go out with me alone.

So, yes, the "light" is killing the affair. No more secrecy.

Showing the WS's that you are getting on with you life, without them the focal point is BIG!!! But Plan A your buttt of when they initiate contact. 180 plus Plan A from afar is having the best success yet of shaking the WW.

I want to expound a bit more on the purpose of PlanA/B, and that is that: when the A runs its course, as it always does, if the BS has maintained their integrity and "Light" they will be a highly desirable compared to the stench of the Affair. Remember that when the glamour wears off, the affairee looks like a hag/troll and the wayward usually can't chew their arm off fast enough to get away.

This is nothing new in the human experience, remember all those fairytales about the wicked witch casting a spell over the prince to make him think she was beautiful, but then the spell always wears off. Integrity will always outshine dishonesty and abasement.

***We were talking about WH, and how he's just flagrantly following an A with OW, about the horrible way he's treated me, and she said, "You know, he feels free to do all this stuff because he thinks that no matter what happens, he can just come back to you."***

Well, no . . . under MB principles, the WS *can't* "just come back to you."

As Orchid says, nobody wants a WS back. If properly executed, Plan A and Plan B require that the WS straighten their a$$ out FIRST. The Plans make them understand that only a truly committed spouse can "come back to you" -- never a WS.
Mulan

I agree with what's been said..

Other points:

Also, the BS has changed..

The WS is not coming back to the YOU there was prior to the A..the WS is coming back to the YOU that was experienced during PLAN A...This should have been a lasting and sincere change in the BS that continues and strengthens during PLAN B...THE NEW AND IMPROVED YOU....THE BEST YOU THAT THERE CAN BE...

The way I see it..the WS begins to MISS the PLAN A/BS not the OLD YOU...If the WS remembers you as being the same..without change...then there is a lower likelihood of return..according to the MB Principles...

PLAN B is also about requiring the OP to meet ALL of the WS' EMOTIONAL NEEDS and typically the OW will FAIL at this REAL-LIFE SCENARIO..the WS gets to experience THE REAL OP...not the fantasized version that was present during the secretiveness of the A...

Since you all seem to know a lot about Plan A, here's a question for you:

If I am trying real hard to do plan A, but FWW does something related to EA that really ticks me off, should I let her know how I feel or should I just keep quiet and try to forget about it? This has already happened and I did let her know how I felt. For the future, was that the right thing to do? I don't think it was, but I'd appreciate advice.

Also, what she did to tick me off did not involve contact with OM and I don't think there is any real contact (she has seen him in carpool line once in the past month). I actually think the EA is over. Not totally sure I believe it, but it probably is.

One other consideration is that she is also unhappy with me in general right now and she was before her EA. This is related to my actions over the past 10 years or so (I did not have an A, however). I have been working on this very hard for almost 2 mos. now and there has been progress. By work, I mean I have been trying to meet her EN's - sort of plan A, but I have had too many LBs talking about her EA. She has noticed my effort and I do think there has been progress. But she is still unhappy with me.

Seems to me that I need to eliminate all LBs and work on her ENs. That can be hard sometimes when she does or says things related to EA that I can't take.

Thanks.

I still don't understand why a BS would want a WS/FWS back. Even with MB princiiples, what's to stop the FWS from being a WS again like my 1st W?

As a FWW new in my journey, I must say that if a BS is firm in his/her expectations about recovery of the M requires for him/her, he/she will not become a "doormat". A stronger M can be built. If the WS violates that, it must be made clear that is unacceptable and you will not remain in the M under those terms

RT,

You have excellent responses from many MB vets on your thread.

The only thing I could add is that during Plan A you must also do everything in your power to expose and stop the A.

You can and should be pro-active in plan A.

k