RE: OH with me...yes i knew there were things she didn't like about staying home...but i thought she was happy with us...with me?

"BUT there is this little devil that is jumping up and down on my shoulder screaming LOVE ME - LOVE ME like you did a month ago...HOW DO YOU JUST TURN IT OFF LIKE THAT? I am looking DESPERATELY for a box to put him in - so i can live a peaceful happy existence...because this little guy is what will destroy us completely."

That little devil is yours...your inner child...telling you that love doesn't come from the inside, only from the outside...you've taught that little devil well...fill me up...I'm empty...when you aren't, have never been.

You nailed it with your catch of your expectations...how you expect/desire to be treated which shows you your worth and value...tells you who you are, when you are and where you are. Like a defining compass in 3D. This isn't her doing this to you...it is you doing this to you.

No shame, 'k? Great news! You control your expectations and beliefs. You can stop this cycle you are in...and it mirrors the ones SHE goes through.

Your little guy doesn't need a box...he needs a lot of hugs and reassurance. Each time you hear...Love me! Say, Yes, CL, I love you. I'm here for you...not going nowhere...No Fear.

When we attempt to stow away the bad and only live in good, we are lying about our human design to self...and SELF doesn't like it. Self doesn't know good and bad...it does not pain and happiness and finds both, together, reasonable, even...gasp...essential.

You are doing a false Plan A with the falsely cheerful stuff. Authentic is what you desire, and don't know how to do yet. I love the whole hopper body thing...only it is for protecting your own brain from doing terrible things to the rest of you...which it did on your way up the stairs. All within your control...you doing it to you. Own this and you'll begin to own your life.

"How do you do this when she is so far from our marriage that i can barely see her." SHE is right in front of you. Your expectation/desire of her is a blip in the distance. Remove your quaking hands from the periscope and look her in her fleshy eye. She's right there. Unknown. A human, separate and equal to you.

When she checks in on you, tell her your truth..."Pain is at a 7 right now; I'm working it down. Great to hear your voice. I appreciate your call." Yes, light and airy tone...fully owning what you feel, and that you're doing half of it to yourself. Honest, though, to you and to her. "Well, that bums me out! I won't bother to call you anymore." "I hear my emotional state affects you and that you are choosing not to know it to protect yourself, is that correct?"

Maybe extreme, but I trust you to understand. Your expectation of heavy when she wants light leads you to DJ...accept that what you want, you want right now...maybe even if getting it means running over your WW in the process...because you feel desperate. Yet you endure this last month, each day, one at a time, and are growing in your pain...like a needle [censored] can get our attention straight to the source.

"but i feel she is already gone and am losing faith that she will come back." This is not a feeling, it is a belief you have. You are no more clairvoyant than I am...yet you choose to go into a future you haven't seen...you didn't see this one a month ago...a lot changes...more, even, when you do. These perspectives and beliefs do not change over night...you have real resistance inside of you about them because they go contrary to a lifetime of what you've been telling yourself. You have to build trust in YOURSELF as slowly as a WS does in their BS...credit yourself each time you get clear on owning your own journey. Being good to yourself (which means NOT indulging in hurtful attacks against you like predicting the future).

Her feelings are hers...they will come back or they won't...depending on her changing her beliefs. You have no control over that. Think about it...exampling you changing your beliefs...replacing really old ones (if I'm abandoned I do not exist), with adult ones (I am...I exist)...and watching the results of your changes for you...

You are talking to a serial cheater...an abandoner...with huge swings in attitudes, energy and a verbal and emotional abuser. I'm not making this stuff up. I was your manipulative WW...and I changed. I did this as I'm telling you, hand to God. I know her struggle like my own heartbeat...and I believe, I know yours.

You've been defined by others and allowed it. That's self-betrayal. Defining yourself is frightening. You can still do it. You have to...you're the only one, Obi Wan! God gave you the responsibility AND ability to define you...know who you are as his marvelous creation...no one else has that right.

As long as she is in contact, she won't feel anything. That's okay in my book for another month of an authentic Plan A...my experience was three months of contact before NC. Yes, my WH worked with OW, also. You can do this. Now, her talking about OP is a boundary issue. Lovingly, with full eye contact say..."I believe marriage is between two people. Three destroys it." Smile and leave the room.

"I choose not to listen to words about your AP. I feel stabbed with each syllable." Smile. It is true. You're being honest with yourself and with her. Smile. Shine. You're free of causing her pain, anguish, shame, depression, happiness...she's in charge of that. Her choice. You're honoring that.

"Want to play cards?"

Switch and go. Listen and repeat to whatever arguments she makes and stay firm on that boundary. No calling him from the house. Period. "But it's about work!" "I'm sorry, DW, but when you chose to become emotionally involved with a co-worker, you chose for it not to be about work anymore."

Why haven't you exposed there? I'm sorry...what did I miss?

More mouthfuls!!! Uh, meaning longer posts are okay with me.

When you are having a non-R time...like the bball game...and you say something like a DJ...even, "Wow, you're a looker!" (GOSH I'm old)...a hottie...whatever...say aloud, "Ack, I mean you look gorgeous to me!"

When you catch and own your own DJs, you will have paved the way to not accept hers...volume, defining abuse...respectfully, calmly..and if you can't get the words past your throat from pain on a real zinger, hold up your hand, palm up, and say, "Ouch!"

You aren't monitoring her...you are aware of you and of her. Equal humans, uneven ground.

In your corner...will wait to hear your response on the resentment timeline separately.

LA

"i have hung on because they keep happening...just when one thing ends that i am PO'd about - when we get a moment of reprieve - another one starts...as if she can not survive without the anger."

So you have ready-made protective resentments at hand, like a shield? They prepare you to stay realistic instead of getting hit from behind by more of them?

I'm a little lost in this payoff...help me out.

LA

i don't know what the payoff is - perhaps it is staying realistic and seeing her for who she is a protecting myself...because when she is in a good mode she is kind, generous, insightful, and smart...but when she is in the not good mode - she has no compassion just a giant brick wall. so perhaps i have them ready made to stay realistic and safe.

i did expose...that is at the beginning of the post. I told her - she was allowing someone else into our marriage and our home and that it was wrong and it needed to stop. I told her we needed to go to counseling to work through our stuff and learn to better communicate. She flipped out and told me nothing was going on...that i invaded her privacy. That she is allowed and will have friends seperate from me.

Then I contacted the phone company last week and they told me she is text messaging OP about 6 times a day. I just checked online this am and she texted op last night at 10:39....after i went to bed - MORE RESENTMENT.

i think my hopper needs to be full body armour with just little strainer at the top...

I took your advice - all the way into work this morning with her...i said to myself...i am alright, i am good, i love me and i am ok.

it does help tremendously. what do i do about this texting??? I can have it turned off of the phone - but she will go balisitic.

I still think you need to consult with a PI, who may be able to retrieve/monitor those text messages. Without proof of the A, you can walk on water, but if she doesn't "believe" she's in an affair, how can you stop it?

IMHO
SD

i will make that call today...part of me is afraid that my snooping at these lengths will be a deal breaker...but it is the only way i can know what it is i am dealing with - so unfortunately i think it is a must a this point.

All cash, no credit cards, or records of transations....think deeply covert. Snooping IS your right, but yes, it will be perceived as a huge LB. Even though done out of love for your W.

Remember, you need evidence that is sufficient beyond any reasonable doubt, that is, undeniable evidence, even though your W will still probably deny. Keep the book "Not Just Friends" in mind for when exposure becomes the next step. Post for direction when you get the evidence you need.

Best wishes,
SD

well i contacted several PI's today...and they all told me the same thing...without a court order i can't get the content of thmessages being sent back & forth. And because the building she is in is secure...noone can get in or out - surveillance will be near impossible...the only thing i have in my corner is that i drive her back and forth...so showing up early seems key. and wait for her to slip up .

Ummmmmm....what does it take to get a court order? Got any lawyer friends. What are the laws in your state concerning adultry as a possible crime?

SD

i could do it - but it would no longer be snooping..it would be all out war - she would have to be notified that an action was being taken against her.

This http://flexispy.com/pro.html might interest you.

edited to add: I see it's only good with one Nokia phone... probably no chance it's what your W carries....

dude - this is an amazing product. unfortunately she's got an LG - i am totally bummed...this would really help me make some decisions.

i am having a tough time tonight...i am ok with me ...feeling good. But I am just really wondering if this is worth it. If she is worth it. if i would be better off on my own...i guess thats why i keep asking how long i should wait this one out...because my LB is really really close to being empty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

All I can say is hang in there. This stuff is hard. But you want to really put your all into this, so you can look back later and know you did your very best to save your marriage, and have no regrets.

Yes, exactly what Believer said (she's so wise)....and, until you have given all you have to give in saving this marriage, and know in your heart you have, you will not be able to move on in life without baggage.

I'm not certain how effective Plan B would be in your case, where you haven't "proved" she's having the EA. She, if she's cunning, and almost all WS are, could make you out to be a lunatic.

You need an insider, in her workplace. Someone in the technology dept. would be ideal. Any ideas on that? Do you know anyone who works on the "inside"?

Are you certain she has to be informed of legal action to get a court order to see the text messages? Who's name is the phone in? If it's your phone, you name on the account, it would be worth exploring if the court order could be executed so that she had no knowledge of it.

We need to come up with a solution on how to out this affair, and, man, I'm starting to run out of ideas... LOL!

If you know who the OM is, and where he lives, you could steal his trash a few weeks in a row and get his cell phone account information, and probably his SS#, and see if HE saves the text messages. That was my next step, if the phone recorder I used hadn't worked, in outing the OM in my world.

Think hard about someone inside her place of employment who could be your eyes for a while.

Best wishes,
SD

I'm sorry I have no experience with snooping much outside the home...Why not just sneak the phone off and block his texts? I dunno. I'm not good at this...why can't we get restraining orders to protect our marriages?

I can help you with the resentments...

"for who she is a protecting myself"
"so perhaps i have them ready made to stay realistic and safe."

Lemme get this straight...you take poison to protect yourself to stay realistic and safe? You reap her bounty when she is kind and loving and take poison when she is not, and how does that protect you or your marriage?

I am not attacking you...seeing our automatic responses for what they truly are, that is realistic.

Can you write a letter to both of them, stating your belief that due to their contact, their choice to put each other before the marriage, that this makes it an EA? State without argument. It just is...when something else outside the marriage becomes more important than the marriage...a friendship, hobby, fantasy...then the marriage is harmed. We know this. You can cc at the bottom of it with a lawyer's name...request them to stop contact to save your family, begin MC and go no contact...

Only thing I can think of right now. You send the letters certified return receipt to all three parties. You get this Plan A solid, inject the respect of separate and equal, expose to her work...maybe cc her manager on the letter...carefully compose it, respectful and factual. You say you have already exposed...to her?

I see you disclosed to a couple who are close friends...other than that, I got to page 6 and didn't see it. I saw where you told yourself you were done with the rollercoaster...felt your best approach was happy go lucky...I saw a lot of the same pain...this urgent desire to stop hurting...and how receptive, earnest and sincere you were and are...

The half you are doing to yourself is expecting her to not text OM...when she has not committed to such a thing. Hasn't owned her choices as destructive. Can you call the Harleys for counseling and tell her about your appt? In your listen and repeat, continue to emphasis her choice, her power and her half of the marriage?

The hopper is to protect your brain from harming yourself. Expect she is texting...no resentment created because there is no unreasonable expectation. You didn't say you actually told your parents...you are lacking their support. Her issues with them are hers...you feared her reaction before, now make it a respect issue--you know she is fully capable of choosing to work out her problems with her inlaws...you will stand by her, but not for no contact, because that solves nothing and harms your DD. What about her family?

LA

Yes, i am sticking this out so i have no regrets - particuarly where my D is concerned. I don't want to look back and see that I didn't try to keep this together - because right now i am the stronger one...the one who has security in my life and in my heart.

I have exposed to - the couple we have embraced as family. to her closest friend - who gave her away at our wedding...in lew of her father. my sister...etc... I am hesistant to speak to her dad - i am torn...i know he really likes me etc...but it is his daughter and he is a sneaky one and will give her tips and tricks on how to get - everything she can out of me. He just went through a horrible divorce. He really has no influenece over her...actually noone does...she is quite stubborn and if she is approached she will stand firm (brick wall) and not do anything you ask because you asked...she will not meet needs - or do anything unless on her terms.

so the best exposure i could have done would be to the friends i have spoken to because they know her well and do have (albiet minimal) influence on her right now. the other issue of this is - her NEW friends (people I don't know at all and am not invited to know) this is where she pulls all influenece from - she now likes what they like - acts how they act - reads and watches what they read (particularly OP) - she gets so roped in by newness that it is like i am watching a teenage kid - not a woman.

Apparently this occurs with great frequency with my w...she gets a new job and throws out her entire "old" life. Maybe when this job ends in June - she will decide to come "home."

By the way LA - your self care tips are great and are really working for me.

I picture us in my mind seperate but equal - this helps with my boundaries.
i use my full body hopper.
i take care of my little devil <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> let him know he is alright - and i amtaking care of him.
i am letting her journey this on her own...
i tell her these are her choices not mine this is her truth.
i talk to myself in this way all day long now and it is really helping me...thank you

I'm happy the self care tips you are choosing to use are of help. Feels amazing to comfort your fear, reassure it, instead of be led or reactive to it, huh?

Perspective matters a lot.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are set in yours about your WW...maybe in the next week or so, you can change those old ones...where you've gotten down her motives, tendencies, propensities...and let them all go. Why? You can't respect and expect at the same time here. She can't be new when you make her old in your mind.

There is security in doing this...knowing your WW and your W...and great danger. Part of self-care is being just now, right now, and that includes the way you see others.

Reality: No matter how her father would attempt to influence her...tips, tricks or anything else, she allows, limits, or disallows influence by choice. We all do. You're allowing my influence...and others here. You're doing that. This is why your perspective of your WW seems so set...you choose.

Example your choices in your "I" statements...I read your list and it is wonderful of what you're doing. Really getting it. Stating your truth is important in those simple disclosures I talked about. Include choosing to see people new as you practice respect.

Being your own encourager, supporter, listener and presence in your life is your choice...excellent one. The job you feared most isn't so awful...kinda cool, even. You're breaking the pattern of fear in yourself...the frozen kind is brittle...hard and old...then you have the littler pieces around you, which can melt, reform, and become hard and frozen again. I say this to alert you that we do not remove fear...like matter, doesn't stop existing, but its form matters.

Roped in by newness...I know that one well. Use it well...you're new, see her new, because it is respectful. How are you doing on the recreational companionship time? The 15 hours of UA? I did these while in Plan A and my H in his A...

I highly recommend getting "Boundaries in Marriage" Cloud & Townsend...I'm on page 44...all the stuff I've been saying, they are writing about--much better, I might add.

LOL

I'm doing a happy dance for you...even explains why your WW is the way she is (in part)...about your part...your power...all of it. By page 44!

((((CL)))) You might think about changing your name...you don't seem so lost anymore...even when you feel it, you're not DOING it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

CL,

I wanted to weigh in a little from my perspective since we are in such similar situations and to give you an idea of how I am handling this. WW and I have discussed things at length. She told me that she doesn't think that going to dinner with OM is wrong. I tried to convince her that she is in an EA, but she just seemed to shrug it off. Anyway, after I got back from visiting my parents, she said that she is 99% sure she is ending this. She had some realizations about things that she didn't like about me, and shared them. She has "not considered her feelings for OM" while thinking about whether or not to work on our M. What it comes down to is that she is not willing to give me the opportunity to work on the marriage. Her giving up on things has really allowed me to let go as well. I realized that I had linked my identity so much to her, that I felt that I was going to be incomplete without her. Now I know that I can move on, and the only way to do that is to let go of her. I will never be able to be happy if I hold on to someone who doesn't want me. We have decided our plan of action for the divorce. She has moved in with a friend. I'm starting on Plan B. Don't know if it will work, don't really care. I realized how gone she was when I told her I only had one request, "Don't sleep with him until you tell me it is over." She thought I was being unreasonable! Can you believe that! She pulled the, "You didn't wait when you were getting divorced." I told her, "If you want to sleep with another man, why don't you just tell me it's over?" She just continued with her babble. I think she hates that I won't use his name...I always say "him". I actually met him. I found out his intentions, let him know that I love her, but I can't force her to be with me, and whatever happens, happens. I think she was completely confused that I have handled things this way. I also wrote a letter to her parents telling them that I love her (and them), but that I will let her go because that is her decision. Her mother called her and was upset, so I let her read the letter too. She got upset, because she realized how selfish she is being...but she is also a very stubborn woman, and will probably never admit she is making a mistake. I can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to. I am only in control of myself, and once I realized that I can do whatever I want and don't have to succumb to her every whim, I have been so much happier. It is amazing how much that little bit of hope that she would choose me that I was holding on to was destroying me. Now, I am ready to move on with my life, with or without her. I know this may not be extremely inspirational because I have probably lost my wife, but I want you to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Stop focusing on her...focus on yourself and your D. Your life will go on no matter what, and it is up you to make it enjoyable, not anyone else. Good luck my friend.

Lost

hey lost it is good to hear from you - i hope you are doing well...you are sounding much better....i am sorry it has played out this for you - BUT at least you can get on with you're life. take some time to reget to know you...and eventually find someone who will really love and commit to you.
i think we married the same girl...i watch your posts - almost to see what my w's next move will be. good luck friend -

LA - SD and all you wonderful folks out there all of your insight has helped me TREMENDOUSLY thank you for your support.

I talked with my family today. I have their support 100%. They said they are sorry this is happening to me but that they weren't surprised. she can be selfish in many ways and

(these are my words) i have coddled this selfishness for many years - i enabled it - i let it happen - i wanted to believe that i would be different. these were my choices and i see them.

they said they want the best for me and that i deserve happiness and to be strong...that they love me.

Anyway W went out with her new work friends tonight and D and i are hanging out. She is gone so much these days...even when she is here she is gone - she goes and plays her guitar for hours...so we are actually pretty happy just hanging out together and learning to live in this house alone. it is actually really good. My loneliness is subsiding. I enjoy the peace which i have been lacking for a long time.

so W just left a message on my phone at work at 4:30pm - saying she was going out for drinks and could i pick her up in the city (again 45 min. away with a small child) when she was done...she dragged her message on for so long - because i suspect she knows it was a crappy thing to do to me.

Her patterns in past relationships are pretty clear and at this point i don't expect her to come back to the relationship. I have gotten firm confirmation on this. Her past 2 relationships ended pretty much the same way. Just before i met her - she stayed in the same house with her ex - they coexisted for six months before she met me (at her request) and then met me and immediately got attached to me - the ex actually moved her into my place (at her request) and told me (not in a sarcastic tone but very evenly) good luck - your gonna need it. I think i understand that statement now. the ex was pretty beaten down...i always felt badly about that...but i laughed it off - i loved her.

Anyway - I will be respectful but seperate...with no expectations. This is the safest path for me right now.

Our 15 hours of recreation time together - is good - we laugh - there is awkwardness - but i figure that is to be expected and our D is always with us. I keep suggesting i drop baby off at our friends house - go do something fun...enjoy each other...but she is not interested. she wants to hang out with her seperate friends.

so thats the story this evening.

Oh, Lost2...

You are so close to getting something very vital to your whole life...within an inch of it...and when you miss it, you will repeat your marriage...no matter who you pick...

"Her giving up on things has really allowed me to let go as well. I realized that I had linked my identity so much to her,"

You have here what was wrong with your marriage...you weren't two people in a marriage, you were enmeshed in each other. Becoming separate and equal, injecting respect for each other being separate and equal...that was what was missing.

"that I felt that I was going to be incomplete without her."

Now that you get this, you can save your marriage. You really can. Your choice.

"Now I know that I can move on, and the only way to do that is to let go of her."

This is a lie...an absolute you tell yourself...there are a thousand choices inbetween staying in a marriage as is...and letting go of her entirely. Absolutes indicate we are in a painful, childish place. Choose carefully.

"I will never be able to be happy if I hold on to someone who doesn't want me." Then you will be enmeshed again, because you are saying you are basing your choice on the feelings of another person...no wisdom there. Reaction only. Just sounds like a value. It isn't. More of the old stuff you've been doing.

We all did this stuff. I'm not pointing at you and saying you're doing it all wrong...you are doing what we did in our marriage...and once we stopped it...and I had to go first, life was released again...my H wanted to be with me and I wanted to be with him. Together, respectfully.

Please reconsider that you are choosing to end pain, and that pain passes the more you grow and know. You are choosing to end pain by ending your marriage. All those marvelous lessons will go with it.

"What it comes down to is that she is not willing to give me the opportunity to work on the marriage."

You're half the marriage, Lost2...she has no control whatsoever over you working on yourself, which is working on the marriage. Yes, in part, if she files for divorce, which still takes time, she can reduce your opportunity. Few waywards actually do this. Being pre-emptive is you not wanting to work on yourself or the marriage.

You have been betrayed, and you have every right to end the marriage. I'm not saying you're wrong...I am saying you will repeat and repeat if you don't stop and acknowledge you're in pain, full of anger, resentment and don't know where you end and she begins in all ways.

"will probably never admit she is making a mistake" DJing this to yourself is killing your love...and you're doing that, not her.

If you are choosing to continue towards divorcing yourself from her and your pain, please consider putting a boundary on dating until eight months after the divorce is final so that you have time to full disengage your dependency, grow yourself with all you can, and learn respect from the get go. You are fully capable, complete, whole and marvelously made. Learn about yourself and your choices, your power.

LA