"at this point that is what is keeping her here i am certain." Why be certain? To what benefit to yourself? Could be cake-eating, a stellar Plan A...rethinking her life and coming up looped within...why choose the certain that hits you like an atm?

Duck up? Ooohhhh....that was fowl.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I loved it.

Back to your regularly scheduled questioning:

"and actually don't know that i want to live always looking over my shoulder.." Why go into a future you don't know? Didn't know this would hit you...who knows what else may come? If you learn boundaries for yourself and your marriage, why look over your shoulder at all?

Stay present.

Just this minute, in fact.

"hey it is nice to have choices" You've always had them. Keep seeing them...they are there and will be. Guaranteed by God...choice is ever present.

"in trying to even speak with her with some honesty" Awww, sorry to hear that. I thought you spoke to her, O&H, for your standards, to meet those...not to get certain responses.

I'm delighted you've invited me along, CL...and do not take my words as attacks...this is the hero part of the journey you're on...to be this vulnerable and hurt, and to struggle to see a new perpsective, mind your own sheep inside, and to come out as the person you were made to be...whole, complete...

Roller coaster is inherent in crisis. Crisis isn't the journey. The trick is to keep learning while on firm, soothing ground.

LA

Well i did speak to her O&H to let her know how i feel...yes for my standards, and i guess to have her as a witness to my journey...while i must also serve as a witness to hers.

i have never been so exhausted in all my life...and while i see a light at the end of the tunnel...it is so far off that i just want to sit the heck down and sleep for awhile...SD said this would be a marathon and it sure is...my energy completely sapped.

i just cycle through anger and sadness - anger and sadness. I am not sure how to break this...i don't trust her and yes you are right looking to a future that does not exist in the present is counter productive...human thing to do...the first impulse...but counter productive. this i need to stop.

the i am certain she is only staying here because she is scared and has nowhere else to go bit...she actually said to me...put it out there....i wanted to believe she stayed because part of her cared - part of her loved...but her words seem to speak the truth. yes she is considerate about daily stuff....but there is no compassion in her.

where do i find firm soothing ground?

my folks asked me and D to meet them for dinner...they haven't seen D in several months...my choice...my mistake...my lack of a back bone. I have to call wife and tell her i am going to meet them...i have no clue what her reaction will be...although she has told me she doesn't care anymore what i do - if i see them or not...so i will probably get little to no reaction...but i am trying to prep for this call i have to make to her. Any suggestions?

she just called me which is TOTALLY unlike her these days - considering she never calls me anymore except when she needs a ride...anyway - just to tell me about something our daughter did - they are both in the same building that W works in and they had a fire drill...she said she saw daughter and she was soooo cute etc...etc...etc... then she went on about how when we have drills at my office - i need to follow the rules and go outside - because i have a family to think about...

LA - or anyone else for that matter - i know you have been through this...and you seem to have an angle on her thought process - her brain...can you tell me a little bit about you and your thought process...maybe so i can get a little insight as to what she might be thinking - about what is going on with her?

She wants to make sure you're still dangling at the end of the string, so she can use you if she wants you.

Keep your eyes open. You are learning. You'll do just fine. Just don't believe anything you hear and only one-tenth of what you see.
Mulan

cl...you are dealing with 2 brains in one body. One is the W you formerly knew, and one is the WS, alien abductee.

If you could peek inside her head, you'd see a violent firestorm, one brain battling against the other. One remembers being your W and the mother of your child, with a lot of "internally re-written" memories of a marriage, the other, a brain fully immersed in the intense thrill of a "new love interest".

She is extremely succeptable to the fantasy of the "soulmate" (gag) connection, because "love" has never seemed so deep or real to her. This because the chemicals in her brain, that allowed you two to connect, are now in play again, but with another man.

The W you know still lives in that body, but the brain has now, perhaps unwittingly at first, allowed another man to fill her needs. She's set aside every boundary she may have had to allow this to happen.

But still, deep inside, she's completely torn. She "knows" what she's doing is wrong and harmful, but the lure of the "new" is more than she can reject.

This is why Plan A is put into place. You need to show by your actions that you know you have fallen into patterns that are not healthy for the marriage, and you recognized this fact, and your love for her is so deep you are willing to make permanent improvements in your efforts to meet her EN's.

Unfortunately, for all BS's, the WS fluctuates wildly between brains, which makes all they do unpredictable, and worse yet, something we cannot fully understand. They are unresponsive (visibly) to our efforts, and the one we "used" to know and love seems to have locked the door to the heart we once had full and open access to.

But Plan A does make a difference, not by any one thing we do, but by a cumulative amount of things we do over an extended period. Equate Plan A to water erosion...the Grand Canyon wasn't carved in a day. It took the constant pressure (Plan A) and a lot of time.

Quit trying to make sense of things that just don't. Know and understand the fog of the A creates this behavior. Focus on YOUR efforts, your mental state (think positive), and be prepared for anything that comes up, knowing you will react in a positive and pro-marriage way.

It is, after all, a marathon...

SD

i guess i am just deciding right now if the race is worth running...i need to sit and breath a second. as Mulan said i am being dangled and i don't like it.

Very well put SD. It is amazing how much I see my WW being torn. I lost 10 pounds at the beginning of this and only slept 3 or 4 hours a night. W was genuinely concerned. At the same time, WW was only thinking about new romantic interest. WW told me that "she just didn't feel that emotional connection anymore."

She knows her EA is wrong. She doesn't like when people point it out because it makes her feel guilty. She keeps saying that she doesn't want to be with me out of guilt. She also says that "I am a good husband, but that we have too many differences." All I have done is tried to improve upon myself. I realize that this isn't my fault. I see that she has some character traits that I don't like, but I accept as part of her. She is using mine against me right now because it suits her. I posted elsewhere that I think the biggest problem is a group of friends that she started hanging out with about a year ago. She thinks that there is something better out there, and that I am holding her back. These are all issues SHE must confront.

The reason I bring this up, CL, is that we are going through the same thing. She admitted that the A has progressed since she moved out, though not to sleeping together. At this point, I can't think about that. She has broken my trust, which is very important to me. If she decides to come back to me, I have been laying out all of my conditions. Otherwise, if she moves on, I am ready to move on in my life as well. I will DEFINITELY be more prepared for future relationships because of this experience and everybody at MB.

Don't give up. I still haven't given up. Life is getting better because I have stopped having expectations. You can never know what is going on in someone else's head...and trying to figure it out will only make you crazy. Continue to concentrate on you and DD. She will eventually decide, and you can go from there. I don't know about you, but I couldn't live with myself if I gave up, because I know what I want, and I want W back.

I just talked to her about seeing my folks...she coulda cared less. Before she would have stomped her feet - screamed at me - made my life a living ******. So it was refreshing to let her know we were going - and not get a bundle of crap about it....although it is pretty indicative of her knew attitude of not caring and being done with me (her words).

well i had dinner with my parents...and it went great - no DJ's from them or me...they were just happy to see me and my d. they told me i had their support and whatever i needed. this was helpful since i have been very removed from them for a long time.

w on the way home - started "coaching" me on how i should behave with them...i very politely told her that i needed no coaching but thankyou for her thoughts. I couldn't tell if she felt one way or the other about it.
she pretty much verbally vomitted on me about work for 80% of the ride home and then began coaching.

i think this was a victory for me in some respects...and i was happy to have them spend time with their gd - i felt like sh** about that for a long time...so at least i feel like i am making head way somewhere.

on the way home while wife was talking about work...i told her i was thinking about looking for a job on the west coast...this is something i was very serious about - not a manipulation...a good career move for me and i have been thinking a change of venue might be beneficial...i was not considering her in this at all - then she piped up with - in 6 months or so we should look into it.

I should have said - i wasn't expecting you to join me on this journey ...or something to that effect...but i just said yeah...well see what happens.

anyway - we are both changing our behavior - becoming independent on our own behalf ...i wonder if it will bring us closer or end our relationship. obviously i would prefer the closer end of things - but after the 2:30 am phone calls etc...i think i am ok to go with the latter as well.

wow i am feeling alot better then i did this weekend...i think i need to just take d and go out - being around her for any streych of time destroys any gains i make.

Well she was texting last night at 3am...can't get content but can see what she was up to. Please folks out there if you have any thoughts on what my next move should be - it would help.

It is clear she has no intention of stopping this behavior... - in fact she told me this...remember muscle up and take it. She doesn't seem to care that she will lose custody of D - and her home - and most likely have no job come june. Or is she banking on me letting her stay and supporting her financially? Or hoping OP will kick out spouse in the nick of time so she can move in there?

i just don't understand what she is thinking...i have been torn about giving OP spouse a heads up about this...in an e-mail or something. Friends just don't chat and text each other at 2 - 3am.

Do I ask her to find an apt - when i know she may have no $$$ to support herself. i really need some help sorting this through...what is the right thing to do - for me? If i am going to be alone...i am really ok...in fact i am welcoming it - because i don't like living in this way...

Good morning, CL...

Informing OMW's is important. You know this. Right thing to do for you is to follow Plan A which is exposure...sharing truth...allow OMW's to decide what she will decide...A or no A in her mind, her right. And she may already know and be withholding it from you...sparing your feelings, which is like running your life.

Don't do to others by not doing...make a phone call. Email can go into the wrong hands and not reach her.

Glad you faced your own family issue...there's no respect in banning people from your life because a spouse is uncomfortable with them...growth issues. And your WW went with you?

Do this today, CL...please expose. Don't run another person's life.

LA

cl... I agree with LA...time to expose to the OM's W. Certainly she's experiencing the same cool indifference from her H, which you are receiving from your W.

Another thought, when you do this, consider exposing to your W's boss at work. Text messenging at 3 am is NOT necessary in most jobs. Is her phone her personal phone, or one issued by the workplace? Her boss may take the initiative to see if there are excessive non-business related e-mails going back and forth between them at work, which is time-theft from the employer. You may even want to "suggest" this to her boss when you expose.

Exposure is best done all at once. Will your W be mad, sure, but the odds are in your favor she will NOT leave the marriage as a result of this anger.

Did you ever purchase a copy of "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass and leave it around the house for your W to see? and possibly pick up and read, and begin to realize the situation she's put your marriage in?

You can't hand pick the proactive things you feel comfortable with, and hope it's enough to save your marriage. You need to do EVERYTHING you can do that is in your best interest in saving your marriage. Some of these things take a "leap of faith". What would you do if you weren't afraid?

Think about it...
SD

I will talk to the spouse...

please give me your readings on this stuff...

It is clear she has no intention of stopping this behavior... - in fact she told me this...remember muscle up and take it. She doesn't seem to care that she will lose custody of D - and her home - and most likely have no job come june. Or is she banking on me letting her stay and supporting her financially? Or hoping OP will kick out spouse in the nick of time so she can move in there?

to answer SD question...what would i do if i wasn't afraid...i would simply tell her to get out...that am not going to be used in this matter...

but i constantly think about her and her needs and her future...which needs to stop today.

WW did NOT come to dinner with my parents...just D and I went...we actually had a very nice time.

to answer SD question...what would i do if i wasn't afraid...i would simply tell her to get out...that am not going to be used in this matter...

That's what Plan B is all about. If the exposure doesn't work to end the A, and your love bank is empty, then you go to Plan B, and tell her to leave the house. You stay, and you provide a loving home for your child.

Plan B takes a huge amount of inner strength. Plan B has several steps that need to be taken, including getting yourself protected legally, financially and for custody rights. It cannot be done half-a$$ed. This may be something you should be preparing for, if the exposure doesn't stop the A.

While I realize how draining this experience can be, there comes a time where you can't let it rule your life. If you can try to achieve some emotional detachment, you can actually see some humor in her actions and words, and let them roll away without impacting your every thought.

Learn to relax a bit in your demeanor, and try to find more positives to gain strength from, and don't let the negatives drain your energy so quickly. You have to manage this whole process with your mind, and set your heart on a shelf for a while.

You have people who believe in your ability to get this done. Believe in yourself!

SD

I just bumped a thread to the top "This is VGA's warroom".

Read that post by VGA...there is some good information there.

hey shattered...thanks....it was definitely insightful....i been making preparations...but have begun making serious preps...today.

in the best WS tradition...i am being played.

i have been O&H on this thread 100% - can anyone help me - i know these are my choices - but there is part (albeit shrinking FAST) of me that allows me to let her to manipulate and dangle me out there....now i think i need to let her go...if she is to come back or not...

Please help me see her clearly.

You just need to turn your own thinking around completely.

Your W's in an A, and that's all that she's thinking of right now. She has no plan, except to continue being in contact with that which makes her feel good, the OM. Nothing else matters.

You, on the other hand, not only have a plan, but you've got support in your plan. Your plan is marriage builders, and your support is this forum. She is a rudderless craft sailing with no direction or purpose, other than the pursuit of a fix. You have a sturdy craft with rudder intact, and know where you are going. Embrace the fact that YOU have the power here. Not your W. Stop viewing life through the glasses of the "underdog", and view the world through a winner's eyes. Your own!

Empower yourself to act with self confidence and believe in your actions. Your W has committed adultry, and you are entitled to leave her/divorce her if you choose to do so. She has no such power. You can boot her from your life, and there are many who would support you in doing so.

However, you have chosen to fight for your marriage. You have been in Plan A. You have chosen to admit to faults of your own and set forth to change them. You are taking positive steps to try to make a chance for a better marriage. Yet, you have not tapped in to the positive energy of having done these positive things. One casual remark from your W can set you back on your heels.

Puff up a little and feel the testostorone coarsing through your veins. Even if it doesn't feel comfortable right now, fake it till you make it. Be the MAN in your marriage, and let your W know there is a limit as to what you will take. Set some boundaries. One of them should be if she wants be involved in an affair, she should not do it while she lives in your house. Tell her the midnight messaging to her adulterous friend is hurtful to you, and she should stop. Tell her that her relationship is a dagger in your marriage. Tell her all of this without attitude or anger, just a simple factual statement. Make your mantra to her one that is repeated over and over, whenever she tells you anything negative about your marriage, you tell her 1. You are sorry for (specific) things you did or allowed that made her unhappy in the marriage. 2. YOu have become aware of those things and are constantly in the process of stopping or changing those things, and 3. You feel the marriage hasn't been given a proper chance to heal, and can never be given a fair chance if she continues to allow another man to be a part of your marriage. Any time she begins to babble about your shortcomings, or her lack of feeling for you, shoot #3 right back at her, and tell her you wouldn't feel comfortable moving towards a D until all options had been explored.

Have you ever set up that appointment with the Harleys and asked her to join in? even if she doesn't?

What are you afraid of?

SD

hey SD - great post...tonight i am right there with you and can feel the testosterone....feel my CHEST....you are on the mark and tonight i can see it...yes she has been able to set me back with one word ... but no MORE.

you are right she has no plan. I asked her...we went to dinner tonight. I got her a martini - losens her up - gets her talkin.

i asked her about her job and what she intends to do in June when it ends...she said she had no plan...plan was to wait it out - see what happens...I told her she needed to have a plan...what were her thoughts...she said what do i mean...i said you MUST be thinking something...she said no - i have no plan but to hope they reup me...(most don't get reupped for months and months...) she said I will do whatever we need for money...(which i don't need her money) BUT this was interesting because she thinks she is just going to stick around without recourse....that it is ok with me. Which is fine for her to think right now. BUT her intentions are interesting right now...

ALSO - after all of her bravado and talk about doing what she wants...she asked me to go to the beach this weekend...she has no BIG plans...this chick is takin me for a ride big time...this is a game - a dance - a nasty dance YES but a dance...

I have no itentions of letting her sit back and let me carry her,,,,not until i see some rings, a major show of commitment and some serious counseling. until then i will prepare for plan b and implement when necessary.

P.S. yes i have given her way too much power in ALL of this. I hold most of the power and have forgotten that fact...it is my time now.