Sit back and watch her flounder. Make a game of it, and keep the emotional detachment in place, and don't let her under your skin.

I like the tone of your post! It is much improved! Keep that PMA (positive mental attitude) in place and your redescovered POWER at your fingertips.

You are going to win this battle!

SD

thanks SD!!! You know i needed to hear that...i have felt like this woman has had me by the ***** ...in fact i gave them to her...and right now i feel like either way...i win...i think that preparing for plan b helps...because i have it in my back pocket at any time

outwit outlast outplay..eh

LA what happened to you...

....LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS...
it seems i can get ww to speak to me a little about her thoughts and plans...very indirectly. if i ask her in an upfront manner she goes ballistic. but if i don't ask questions...she never discusses anything of any importance at all. Any ideas - or on how to broach conversations with her...to get her to give info - sink herself.

Also i would like to expose to OP's spouse...all i have to go on is an e-mail address and would like to also approach this with care.

I thought i would send a message like this...

Hi _____, i know we don't know each other but my gut tells me that we have a common problem. I would really like to speak to you about this. and give her my # if she'd like to talk.

thoughts on this approach?
thanks

just got the phone call.. she is going out with "the girls" tonight...and will be getting a ride home...doesn't know when she will be home...but probably late.

But she'd still like to go to the beach tomorrow. Some one please help me weed through her b*llsh**

I know what I couldn't help but do.... I'd load up whatever I needed to take care of the kid, go swap cars with a friend, and play PI all night. I could not sit at home knowing they may be together, and she was feeding me another round of bullsh!t.

JMHO
SD

Also i would like to expose to OP's spouse...all i have to go on is an e-mail address and would like to also approach this with care.

I thought i would send a message like this...

Hi _____, i know we don't know each other but my gut tells me that we have a common problem. I would really like to speak to you about this. and give her my # if she'd like to talk.

thoughts on this approach?
thanks

I'm here with you, CL. Didn't go anywhere.

Why do you only have an email address? Why are you limiting yourself? SD said follow her...find out...get information for yourself.

You helped me to see better why I dislike a BS backing away from exposure...others can post great advice, but when a BS limits themselves...they are being wayward. They are doing what the WS is doing..."I know the right thing to do BUT"

What do you think? Divorce is costly...takes part of our souls...would a PI or you as PI, or your friends helping, be worth finding out about OM's wife, address, phone number...or not?

What did you say when your wife shared her plans last night? "I hear you're choosing to not come home, continue your A and put others as a higher priority than your family."

What would your words be if you were committed to Plan A and not somewhere inbetween Plan B?

Perspective matters. Grants us permission to act and fear at the same time. Or not.

LA

she did come home actually - at 9:00. said she was bummed that the girls don't "party" like she hoped...told me all the details of the evening. (not that they are true)

i can call OP's wife at work but - in her position - she travels alot. I tried to get a cell phone number...but they are not listed.

I don't know - i felt like digging threw trash was a hit to my dignity - and my self worth...I can call her work and maybe they will give me a cell number. I thought the e-mail would make contact....then we could talk...but i should call her work.

we went out together today - had a nice time...then i stepped out of the car to run into the grocery store...I went back for my wallet and she was messing with her phone...i said i really hope she was't texting...i felt it was disrespectful to me...

she told me - maybe we just shouldn't go out together. everytime i try to put myself out there - she turns it around and tries to take something....everytime i approach - she removes something that is ours.

i told her that was not what i was getting at and the texts have nothing to do with our doing things together...it had to do with her respect for me when we were together...she turned up the music...and closed her eyes and would not speak to me until we got home...then she was back to fake it till you make it.

LA - let me in her brain. we talked at lunch about a job change for me...a relocation...she said she thought WE were settled. I said - I don't feel settled at all...and perhaps a change of venue would be good. She said she wanted to wait until her contract was up...and see if she got reupped.

I feel like i am being dangled.

Her work is safer...her voicemail is safer than email.

Snooping and dignity...finding truth for yourself is a DJ to self? Or is assuming better?

Could it be a protective device? You are DJing yourself that you can't take more pain which will come with more knowledge, truth of actions and choices, rather than dignity?

What you are asking of me is what you might choose to ask of WW...

"I feel dangled. I know I can't be. I have my own choices. I know I cannot make you respect me, stop cheating, commit or love me. I know this and I struggle. I can chose to divorce you, move away, and begin again with all I have learned from you and our marriage...and what I've learned about me."

That's O&H.

"I am confused when you talk about remaining in the marriage and continue your affair. I see your choice to be in contact as NOT choosing the affair."

"When you text and call OM, I view it as you choosing him and yourself over me. I feel defective, put aside."

None of this is a DJ to you or to your WW. Just your truth, stated. No SELF-betrayal. No manipulation. By aying "a change of venue would be good" you're only telling a small part of your truth, stepping around it with a nod in its direction.

I believe staying calm, honest, sincere and sharing, without intent to get a response, change a situation or manipulate in any fashion IS healing yourself. Where dignity comes from...the inside, not the outside.

I hear your pain and fear, both swamping you. I see it, too. And you may want to flail at me with legs and arms to STOP telling you it's yours, your choices, your growth.

You may want comfort, succor, peace from adversity...curling in on yourself. I know I did. I longed for it with my very being...then I realized, wait, that's how I got into this mess to begin with!

Your power. Your choice.

I say work on your Plan A for you...know your intent and perspective...maybe choose differently? Until you expose everywhere...including her work...then why Plan B?

LA

Hey LA thanks for the post....i need your thoughts on this...and everyone elses too...

Tonight we went to a friends house...one who works with her - we have all known each other for a long time - so it is a joint freindship and a person i trust and am comfortable with. I talked to her tonight - this is what she told me....

that the people at her work (her included) are seriously concerned about her too...that she is not cheating on me - that OP is in a solid relationship...that they are all very worried about her. They think she needs help...that she needs counseling and medication. That they think she is having serious issues in her head about my family (who she hasn't had to see or deal with in 6 months)...and is also obsessed with work to the point that it is scaring them. That she is spinning in circles and they want to intervene....but are afraid she will freak out if they do - because of her temper. Friend said she has urged her to get counseling...but w refused. She said they have spoken ALOT (wife told me they haven't spoken at all) and that friend is very worried. She told me to just try to lay low to wait out the storm ...but she is afraid it is going to get worse before it gets better - that w is looking for any reason to pounce on me...to blame me....to get out...but that she is afraid.

I told this friend...that i love my w..i know she is lost...i know she needs help...but that she won't talk or listen to me...that i would and have done anything for her. she said didn't i know w had these problems - that haven't we gone through anything like this before given her issues??? I said yes...but they were never directed at me...i was always her rock until know...so i could deal with it. now i don't know what to do. I find this information relieving to some degree BUT what do I do with this info???? How do i handle this????

"that she is not cheating on me..." And that explains the txt messenging how?

Did you discuss the TM's with the friend? What was her answer for that?

Just wondering...
SD

i did actually....she said that she is just cycling...does not stop talking - to everyone...(which i know that when she gets in this mode she can not stop.) I told her "you know its wrong though?" - she said absolutely - that she is going to talk to her....has been talking to her.

Is the texting EA yes - but at least it hasn't moved on to where my brain has taken it- she has pulled me out of the equation - that needs to be fixed....

But i feel like at least i know what i am dealing with...she kept presenting to me that everything at work was great... that her friends were great...I feel like i have been given a glimpse inside there...and they are worried too.

Our MC told me something that helped me, and it might help you in this sitch.

She told me I was "leaning too much towards my W". She went on to explain that when one party in a marriage leans too much toward the other, that it leaves the marriage unbalanced. She told me to take care of myself, work really hard on the Plan A improvements in my own contributions to the marriage, but to show my W a little independence. In other words, quit fawning over her, and quit trying to "solve her problems". Let her stand up for herself, and work on her own issues, without trying to coach or teach her.

So, think about trying this...No relationship talk whatsoever for a couple of weeks. None. Show her some of the emotional disattachment we've talked about. Play it totally cool. You can talk with her about anything EXCEPT your relationship. Next, find something to do a night or two a week. Hook up with a friend and go bowling, or fishing, or fix up his car, anything, to let your W see that you are a whole and independent human being. (with a taste of the illusion that you are tired, and ready to move on without her, if necessary). Show her you are not responsible for her happiness. She is.

On other nights, court her, take her to dinner out, fix something for her, rent a movie she may like better than you, take your kid out shopping together, fix up or deep clean a room in your house. In other words, you need to orchestrate more time together with your W that isn't spent questioning her, probing, challenging, (which she reads as manipulating and controlling).

I haven't seen where you two spend anywhere close to 15 hours a week in companion/recreation/couple time. Step up and work on getting to spend more quality time with her. Not just time sitting around the house, wondering if she's upstairs TM'in the OM. Keep busy, have fun, "court" her a bit, have some real fun together, and NO relationship talks.

Plus... when is the last time you brought her a bouquet of flowers? When is the last time you bought her a card and told her how much she means to you? When is the last time you complimented her about how wonderful a mother she's become?

Worth a try?
SD

Hey SD thanks for the post...I actually feel really good about what transpired over the weekend...i am worried about my wife...but feel a sense of relief that I am not the only one seeing something is seriously wrong...

I backed off considerably this weekend and on saturday we actually had fun...went out and enjoyed ourselves. we were having lunch and we talked a little about a relocating...she said she thought we were settled here? Which i thought was utterly entertaining (she is really all over the place) I said - really? I am not feeling settled at all - and didn't think you were either? I thought a change of venue might help...but wasn't sure you wanted to join us. But if i decide to pursue this - you should come too...there is lots of opportunity for your career in CA....etc. She nodded.

I will not talk about us for a while... I am actually really burned out from talking about us...and having her take away something else each time i do. her moves have been very caluculated...in terms of each discussion i lose a little more...and she gains more ground to leave...so i am backing off. I can not control her or what her brain is doing to her right now...all i can take care of is my D and myself.

on sunday she was pretty cold - and distant...so i took my D to the park and we played and had a great time...i cleaned the house...went to the grocery store...etc...kept busy. got my D ready for bed...read stories..we had a great day.

After D went to bed we watched a movie and then I pleasently said good night and went to sleep myself. this morning was status quo again.

I am going to go out this week...hang out with some friends and start living for me.

In terms of courting her...I have always been pretty romantic this way...buying cards and flowers was always something i did. I have not done so in this past month - because she has made it clear she doesn't want anything from me...so I thought I would give her a little time before I do anything. maybe another week - for her to feel a little looser.

wow - i do belielve the LB is empty....
yesterday at 5:00 w left me a message saying everyone at work was staying to watch the Yankees game and didn't that sound like fun!!??!! that she wasn't coming home until late probably around 11. Hope I didn't mind. Love up! The cheeriest, fakest, most make me want to vomit message of all time.
So I picked up D and we had dinner and hung out (like we always do) and got her ready for bed - did the whole routine. The whole night my daughter is asking me "where's mama" and are her new friends at work family? I explained no...and again wanted to vomit.
She got in around 11 - but i was already in bed - and just stayed away. this morning again lots of fake (i mean OVER THE TOP FAKE) happy go lucky...asking me about what we want to do for dinner tonight...whats going on for this weekend - lets do some fun stuff with the girl...on and on...which is more then i can handle.
Then she text messaged me a picture of our D this morning (wow a text from my W - how lucky am I?) I know lots of SARCASM - but this woman is going of the deep end...and is trying to play me...and now i am seeing right through her bullsh*t. Clearly she knows she is wrong...or she wouldn't fake nice me.
any suggestions on how to deal withthis nonsense?

...asking me about what we want to do for dinner tonight...whats going on for this weekend - lets do some fun stuff with the girl...on and on...which is more then i can handle.

cl...It seems to me she is asking you to do exactly what I suggested you do in the last post.

You keep asking for help, and you have received a host of suggestions, but I don't see that you have tried many of them.

Only your actions will make a difference.

Have you had your phone appt. with the Harley's yet?

Have you read "Surviving an Affair"?

Have you bought a copy of "Not Just Friends"?

You haven't had time to do what I suggested in the last post to you. You need to commit to a course of actions and stay consistant in your efforts. Instead, it seems you let every little bump in the road throw you off your mission.

Your W is slowly driving you crazy, but you are allowing this to take place. You need to put your Taker on a shelf, and leave your Giver in high gear. You need to resign yourself to the fact your W is not at a place where she can give you anything.

From what you've posted, your W seems to need professional help. You cannot make her go. You can only help yourself. Call Steve Harley and get a professional's advice on which way proceed. Sitting back and not being proactive is getting you nowhere. It's time you take some steps forward, not for your W, but for YOU. Otherwise, you may find your LB$$ empty, with no progress to show for the past 2 months.

I am at the point where I really don't know what else to advise you to do. You may want to start another thread, and get some advice from other, wiser people here on the forums, and I'll stand clear.

Best wishes,
SD

thanks SD....I am actually doing much of what you have advised...plan A'ing...
I have bought and begun reading Not Just Friends and also the book LA suggested. I am respectful to her and non judgemental. I am in counseling and following C's guides which are in step with MB.

I realize that she can't give me anything...I guess what i am afraid of is that i am to the point where i don't want it.

and yes...my wife has in fact made every suggestion to my plan a'ing her...she is telling me thats what she wants and i am doing it for her.

I needed to vent this morning my level of frustration has reached its limit...and her selfishness right now shows no signs of letting up.
just frustrated really really frustrated.

thanks for your input...

CL,

I care about your frustration levels...Plan A, to me, doesn't have frustration...it has action and self-discovery.

How separate and equal are you feeling, believing? How parental? How do you say non-judgmental and then judge her choices?

I am not attacking you...I do remember how difficult, sometimes excruciating it got for me...but I also remember I was doing a lot of it to myself, slipping back into pre-A mindset with present day commitment...and created a lot of inner conflict...which I want to save you from...and you might need it...heck, I dunno!

I had to stop measuring my love bank completely...act on will and belief...and I'm reminding you that each "deserve" "justice" "selfish" word you hear is exactly what goes on in the wayward mindset...like you are coming close to walking that resentment trail...and it's a great signal to you from you to say, whoa...what about my respect? She owns her stuff and I own mine?

Does this sound at all like help to you? LOL...you ARE doing Plan A...correct your course when emotions signal you...don't live by emotions...learn from them.

You are on a hero's journey...if it were easy, would it be heroic or mundane?

How's the self-kudos going?

LA

CL -

I'm about half-way through your thread. I am RIGHT THERE WITH YOU. Your W and my W - VERY similar. Only difference between us is in the way we responded to her pre-A. I was not accomodating or affectionate. I fought her temper and - at times - childish behaviour by shutting her out and turning ice cold.

Well guess what - she went somewhere else to find the affection and understanding that she wasn't getting from me.

Be that as it may you and I are now working through very similar situations. Since I am now a different person to my wife - I've softened up tremendously, maybe too much - she's using her very sharp skills centered around aloofness, meanness, coldness, etc. to keep me away. My challenges with her are SO MUCH like yours.

I haven't got it figured out yet so I can't be much help. I did undergo a change in myself last week that was pretty profound. I was laying on the couch at my parents house - out of town with the kids so I was going CRAZY at all the A activity that I knew was going on in my absence - hurting HORRIBLY from a very vicious phone call with WW. I was litterally writhing and groaning I hurt so bad.

Strangely the pain started to change and harden into something else. It wasn't anger though - which is what my pain and hurt usually morph into. It was something. Else. Best word to describe is probably "resolve". Anyway when we came home I felt so differently. Didn't R talk to her for days. Felt like I was in a position of calm - but not punitive - power.

Anyway, I've felt some more hurt since then but it's felt different. I don't feel so needy and desperate. I can't tell you exactly why. 3 weeks of reading MB forums have helped. Don't get me wrong, I still want my marriage. But something has changed in me.

Sorry I can't offer advice. Just wanted to share. Check out my threads if you're interested. A lot has happened since I posted last so I need to update.

I feel for you.

MDC - that happened to me at some point too - can't rememeber exactly when. I think it can be a very good thing if it doesn't go too far (and I think it can go a long way without going too far). I think we (BH's) should not be doormats. And I think this "resolve" helps keep us from being doormats.

One of the things that prompted me was a quote I read on this site which said: "Whoever cares least about a relationship controls it." In my case, I think that was W early on. When I read that (and I can't remember who said it), I resolved to change that and become that person - for my own sanity. Don't know if was able to do it, but it definitely helped with the resolve.

Maybe a little too much since I have a problem with LB's right now.

I'll look forward to seeing an update from you.