How would you achieve a Plan B while living together?

I have been struggling with that one myself. I don't know. I know that he would NEVER leave the house

I am just grasping at straws. I cannot live like this anymore, I just don't know what else to try. We have been through two MC already. The drinking issues were huge, but the EA and lack of effort to face the pain that he caused is just too much.

I don't want to divorce, but I just can't do this anymore.

The one and only thing that he cares about are our boys. When he were together he takes them away from me. For example, right now. He decided to pick them up from the sleep over. He now has taken them upstairs to his bedroom and closed the door and they are having a big ole time playing videos games. This happens every time. He will spend the entire day keeping them entertained with him while I clean the house and cook dinner, etc. It's strange, really.

W4ell, sick, I don't know what to tell you. Plan B won't work while you live together, I think you realize that. He is so detached because of his alcoholism that such a seperation would only be a relief for him.

I think you just have to accept that you can't change him and plan accordingly. From the sounds of it, he seems pretty content with the status quo, and knowing how an alcoholic thinks, it would take a powerful motivator to make him cause to change. And he won't change unless and until he chooses, not to make someone else happy. Most alcoholics are freeloaders, and are only in it for the personal benefits.

Have you read Harley's book, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders? In it, he explains that only marriages with BUYERS last because they invest the proper amount of care in a marriage. A freeloader marriage does not work, as you can see, because they invest NOTHING and are only there to reap benefits. When the benefits stop, they are gone.

Dr. Harley explains in the book how he was a freeloader when he was dating his wife, Joyce, until she dumped him. Dumping him gave him the proper motivation to invest the care that was needed to foster a loving relationship.

That is disrespectrful. If anyone else did that, what would you do? You realize your children won't say much because he is suppose t/b their dad. Yet they see how disrespectful he is being.

Btw, how do you know that is all he is doing up there with them? What if he is on the phone with the OW or even playing with them and her via internet? Why the closed doors and what do you think those children of yours think of him having his own bedroom? See the lesson being taught to these children?

What r u going t/d about it?

L.

There is no computer up there. Cell phones don't work at our house and I check the home phone bill carefully. I am certain that the only thing he is doing is playing Disney Land dad up there. Though the door is closed, I pop in from time to time and pretend to look for something. They are just playing games or he is sleeping with them.

I know it's not right that they know Daddy has his own room. Right now, they are too young to understand it but I am sure not young to remember.

What am I going to do about it? I don't know. That's why I was asking. I honestly don't know. When I try to talk to him when he is this way it turns so ugly so fast. He either just waves his hand at me to dismiss me or he yells. I don't want the kids to see that anymore. I have found it is better to wait until he is not in this mood.

Not that this is working out very well. What usually happens is I will make Sunday dinner, they will eat, he will say nothing (sometimes he will tell the kids to say thank you for dinner) then he will leave the table with them and go to the basement or go upstairs to his room. After days go by without talking to me (see, he is punishing me for bringing up the affair), eventually he will call me and then we just go on like nothing happened.

I would truely appreciate anyone's help.

"When I try to talk to him when he is this way it turns so ugly so fast. He either just waves his hand at me to dismiss me or he yells. I don't want the kids to see that anymore. I have found it is better to wait until he is not in this mood."

He does this because he can. You have accepted his disrespect and he gets his way. I think you can read up on boundaries, and decide how you will respond in the future. One way would be to tell him nicely that you will remove yourself and your children when he starts in.

Honest;y, HOW would I stop him? He does what he wants and feels that there is nothing wrong with his behavior because he can list off ten things that I may have done to make him act this way. Childish, I know, but how do I respond to that? It always get ugly fast. BTW, this is not all the time, just when I stand up to him. This is how he punishes me (for lack of a better word).

He knows it is unacceptable to yell at me. When I say STOP or TIme Out he makes fun of me like I'm a child OR says YOU are the one yelling not me. It's rather insane. I have told him that I am going to start recording these conversations so that he can listen to how he sounds. I know that he would never actually listen. When I contronted him with the emails from his EA (because he denied that they existed) and I printed them out for him, he threw them on the floor and refused. To this day, he STILL will not look at them. He knows that they say anyway. When I exposed him I made a cut and paste of all the emails and emailed them to all parties. He had to stop denying it then. At that point he said it was "inappropriate".

sick, My computer is driving me crazy! I've lost two fairly long responses to you, so I'm going to keep this one (relatively) short and sweet. I agree with ML that your problem is alcoholism, the FAMILY DISEASE of alcoholism, that is.

I've BTDT and bought enough t-shirts to open my own e-bay store. Get back to Al-Anon and check out Patricia Evans' book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship, or her website Verbal Abuse.

You need to learn to respect yourself, which you won't learn from someone who treats you the way FWH does, but you can learn how in Al-Anon. Your FWH's abuse is a reflection of his own self-hatred. He's looking for things outside himself, such as alcohol and EA's, to make himself feel better while blaming someone outside himself, in this case you, for his unhappiness.

Because you also suffer from the "family disease of alcoholism", you may find yourself doing the same - thinking that solving your problems means finding the right way to get your H to change...

Please try Al-Anon again. Don't make the mistakes I did by quitting when my now STBXWH got sober and I thought we'd left the disease behind us. I didn't even begin the work on myself until STBXWH's return to drinking and drug abuse, increased verbal abuse, and infidelity finally brought me to my knees... but it was too late to save our M.

Alright, I can do that. Please tell me ways to respond to the statements that will come:

Oh God, here we go again. WHY do you feel you have to go there? I don't drink anymore. I thought you were over that. You live in the past. Get over it. And various other adaptations of this theme.

You work all day and THEN you are going to get a sitter for the kids to go to a meeting? Don't you want to spend time with the kids? (Said in a "what-kind-of-a-mother-are-you-tone of voice)

What's wrong with you that you can't just past that? The past is the past.

Thank you

Alright, I can do that. Yes, you can!

Please tell me ways to respond to the statements that will come:

Oh God, here we go again. WHY do you feel you have to go there? I don't drink anymore. I thought you were over that. You live in the past. Get over it. And various other adaptations of this theme. Keep the focus on yourself. Tell him this is about your healing, not about him. Tell him you want to get "over that" and stop "living in the past", etc. and you know this is your problem and your responsibility.

You work all day and THEN you are going to get a sitter for the kids to go to a meeting? Don't you want to spend time with the kids? (Said in a "what-kind-of-a-mother-are-you-tone of voice) Tell him, yes, you're going to do this because you need to take care of yourself. You can use the analogy of the flight attendant instructing passengers to put on their own oxygen mask before assisting kids. Tell him your issues are interfering with being the best mother you can be and that you are doing this so you can be a better mother and a better WIFE.

What's wrong with you that you can't just past that? The past is the past. Tell him you're going so you can find out "what's wrong with you" because you know it's hurting your marriage.

BTW, if your kids are old enough, there may be an Alateen meeting at the same time so you could bring them with you instead of getting a sitter.

I don't mean to imply that you are the problem in your marriage, though you are responsible for your own life and your kids. I'm just giving you suggestion to ease your FWH's mind and help you avoid arguments. If your H is like most, he's afraid people in Al-Anon will blame him and tell you to leave him. He'll back off if he sees you're serious about going and if you seem happier, not angrier at him.

Wouldn't you want to answer those questions with the TRUTH? That his alcoholic behavior is MOST CERTAINLY NOT in the past and until it is, you need to get help to learn to live with a PIG who verbally abuses you. He ACTS LIKE A DRUNK, the only difference is that he didn't pick up a drink.

Tell him also that you understand that stopping drinking is NOT RECOVERY to an alcoholic, it is only the basic, FIRST STEP. [it is only STEP ONE, the other steps are addressing his LIVING problem - he seems to have missed that part]

You know something else, sick? Timid behavior EMBOLDENS a bully alcoholic. Stand your ground and do not ever mince words with him. He needs to hear the truth.

Thank you for your encouragment LetStry. It really is very helpful.

ML, I agree about the truth part, very much. That is actually what is causing this round of trouble.

I was very timid in the past. Not when he met me but over the years of being called stupid, dumb [email]a@@[/email], etc. The affair changed a lot of that because I lost much respect for him. In fact, in a message to him right after D day I told him that I was no longer afraid of him and his rants. He just laughed that I would say I was afraid. His exact statement was, "Have there ever been bruises on you?"

Yesterday's upheaval was BECAUSE I stood up to his nasty mouth. He woke up crabby, barked at my second son (He is home this weekend from college...had his tonsils out Thursday morning and he was mad because he was playing XBox on the main TV and the twins (HIS sons) wanted to use the TV. I firmly told him not to talk to my son that way and things got ugly fast. Now we are right where this always ends up. He is not speaking to me and has withheld our little guys from me all day.

Now that I am no longer the timid wall flower, afraid of all the arguments (well, they still make me cringe), he is back his old crap with yelling, blame shifting etc. It made me feel bad that my son is here recuperating and the house is all stressed out. I really screwed up when I married him, I know. I honestly thought that all he needed to do was quit drinking. I know a lot more now.

Letstry, I WILL go to that Alanon meeting this Week! Thank you.

I just hate all of this!

Mel, I guess it's just a difference in perception. Those answers are truthful. They're the truth about SOT rather than about her FWH. Having spent many years with an abusive alcoholic (who called me a lot worse than stupid and d.a.), I found that direct confrontation only made things worse. They're not ready to listen to anything you say to them. One of the jokes in AA is that you know when an alcoholic is lying whenever his/her lips are moving. All that counts with alcoholics is actions, not words. And this is all they'll notice in others, their actions not their words.

It's like the difference between kick boxing and Aikido. In kick boxing you return blow for blow, in fact trying to land more and deadlier blows than your opponent. In Aikido, you use your opponents force to overpower them.

Another factor is that codependents, which is anyone whose spent any length of time with an alcoholic, tend to be focused on the alcoholic. As I was told when I first came to Al-Anon, I had a case of the "he-he's" as in, "He did... and then he said... and I don't know what he'll do if... etc." By focusing on herself, SOT will be changing the dynamic. Her FWH may not realize what's different, but he'll notice. By not responding to the crazy accusations that are only attempts to push buttons, not efforts to communicate, it derails the fight. Then she can go ahead and do what you're going to do, hopefully without having to fight about it!

sot, Good luck and let us know how it goes!

LetSTry, direct confrontation does work with an alcoholic in that it forces him to look at himself and gets him out of his comfort zone. The worst thing that family members can do is pretend like nothing is wrong; that fuels his fantasy that he really is ok. It enables him to continue abusing family members. An alcoholic needs to hear how sickening and disgusting he really is. Those words have a very strong impact on an alcoholic. Otherwise, he thinks he is just wonderful and feels free to run roughshod over family members.

Being timid with an alcoholic only EMBOLDENS him to be even more of a bully, which is why it is important that she make clear boundaries of what she will tolerate.

And you are right about the importance of actions with alcoholics, however, words do count very much.

I've worked in alcohol and drug treatment programs so I know direct confrontation is important, but fighting every time an alcoholic tries to push your buttons isn't beneficial to anyone. And personal recovery from the effects of alcoholism requires more than just getting the alcoholic into treatment, just as treatment for alcoholism requires more than just not drinking.

What an alcoholic needs is to experience the consequences of his/her own behavior. The hardest thing for families is letting them fall. Family members gradually take over responsibility and want to help the alcoholic, but they also try to prevent the consequences from occurring to protect themselves from their own fears about the neighbors or their family finding out, or losing their home or kids, or because they've begun to believe the alcoholic's lies about their stupidity and feel dependent on the alcoholic.

Alcoholics are filled with self-hatred so being told he/she is sickening and disgusting would of course have a very strong impact. Fueling their self-hatred means increasing the level of abuse projected back at loved ones. What alcoholics need is to experience the consequences of their own behavior. For the family member this may mean setting boundaries and spelling out the consequences such as leaving the house temporarily or even permanently if the alcoholic isn't willing to stop the abuse or get treatment.

Setting boundaries is extremely important for people living with alcoholics and it requires detachment from the alcoholic. Detachment means recognizing the alcoholic is ill but won't recognize it and accept help until he/she experiences the consequences of his/her actions.

Words count only if they are followed up with actions - it's necessary, as they say, to "walk the talk".

LtsTry, I also have some experience with this, except from the other side. So I know what works. I have been sober in AA for 21 years, been a circuit speaker, and have sponsored several people over the years.

One of the most impactful things a family member can do is to TELL the alcoholic how thier behavior appears to others.[I never suggested getting into a pissing match] This is a very IMPACTFUL wake up call for the alcholic. The reason the alcoholic loathes himself is BECAUSE of this behavior, but he continues because he convinces himself that he is not that bad.

However, when a family member tells him how revolting, disgusting, etc, it really is, he knows he is not fooling anyone. The alcholic loathes himself FOR GOOD REASON: he *IS* loathesome. Pretending like he's NOT does not motivate him to become less loathesome. Pretending is the WORST THING they can do because it only fuels his fantasy that he is not as bad as he suspects. Believe me, I have sat at enough tables for 21 years to know that this has an impact.


Agree 100% and would never say otherwise!

I feel so overwhelmed right now. What do I try to work on first? The dry drunk issue or the affair issue? They are both so incredibly painful. I don't even know how to behave or feel in my own house right now. Thank God I can go to my office every day.

What should the next step be? (Besides the previously mentioned agreement to go to alanon. BTW, I have attended 2 on line meetings since we started posting until the f2f meeting this week)

Thank you

sick, I see your main issue as his alcoholism. Until that is addressed in some way, there is no sense on addressing the affair. Because recovery is impossible until you both recover from his alcoholism issues. You in AlAnon and he in AA. Did you tell me that he DOES go to a counselor?

Yes, he has been going for about a year now. At first to work on our marriage issues but since his dad died unexpectedy last summer it's been mostly his grief issues.

I started going myself Nov 2004 after a particularly bad verbal assault. He had hit a new low. After going a couple of months and going to alanon, I told him I was prepared to leave becaue I couldn't live this way. He was very remorseful, agreed to see the same IC. Things were progressing quite well as he opened up to the counselor and then to me some very significant abuse he had received as a child. I never knew about this, though I always suspected SOMETHING was very amiss in the entire family dynamic.

We working making tremendous progress and I was really working the alanon program. Then his dad died. Since that time, little marriage work has been done. He doesn't tell me what he and the IC discuss anymore. Through that time frame I did the detachment, forgiveness and letting go work of alanon. As I am sure you know, this is tremdously difficult (and liberating). All the while that I am finally able to let go of all the years of craziness during his drinking days and beyond, he started his EA with the old high school love.

Also, he got quite drunk when he went to his hometown when he recd the news of his Dad's death. He went down immediately while I stayed back a couple of days to take care of the kid/pet arrangements etc. The first night down there she came by, they exchanged emails and away the affair went. Her first email to him was within an hour after she first saw him at his Dad's house. Also, that night, he and his brothers got very drunk. He called me on the phone that night. Of course I was extremely upset that he got drunk and that his brothers actually encouraged it. When I approached them about it when I got down there I was told in no uncertain terms that I had to back off about his getting drunk...after all, his dad had just died. Lots of dysfunction in the family and I get no support concerning his drinking issues or his EA.

This is the second therapist we have gone to over the drinking issues. I don't feel that we have EVER really addressed, fully any of that. The whole direction shifted from some pretty good progress, to grief counseling, to the upset his affair caused.

My emotions are just all over the place right now. The biggest part of my anger at the moment is that he could have this affair RIGHT AFTER all the alanon work. Such a betrayal on top of betrayal.